Invasion of the Body Scanners

[alldaysushi]

With the advent, of the Underwear Bomber, The Scanners are arriving, contracts signed, we are really going to be safe now...

Now that the flying slave class can be dehumanized further, the aviation industry destroyed further, and the political elite prospering beyond even their own wildest imagination.

Your thoughts on aviation in the mid-term 3-5 years, just extremely curious...

Thanks...Sushi

[doishquattroserche]

the terrorists and the socialists are overachieving in tandem!!!!!!!

[despegue]

I am a fan of these body-scanners to be honest.
No more need to unbuckle your belt, put off shoes etc. It is really a lot more civilized and less hassle.
So what if someone sees a naked LAYOUT of me! half the world is like me, the rest as my wife. Big deal.

And to those who claim that body-scanners intervene with the anti-childporn and personal freedom legislation: Get a life!

[sTeamTraen]

No more need to unbuckle your belt, put off shoes etc. It is really a lot more civilized and less hassle.
I must have missed the bit where they said that these measures would replace any existing ones.

Oh, hold on, is that a pig taxiing on runway 24? Why, yes it is... so I guess you're right! :)

[Leezyjet]

Until the Government grows a set and starts using profiling as a security measure, they may as well just issue these the the security staff :-

http://www.3dstereo.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/glasses/xray.jpg

Let's face it, people who want to blow up aeroplanes and the like tend to fit a certain profile, but we couldn't single them out could we, might "offend" them !!.
:mad:

[ExSp33db1rd]

I must have missed the bit where they said that these measures would replace any existing ones.


Exactly, we'll soon be asked to walk through naked, just so that they can see inside.

Waste of time, the bad boys will do exactly what they want to do, precisely when they want to do it - regardless of any measures.

Remember when simple X-ray scanners were first used ? Bottles of red wine in a carry-on showed up as solid black, not one was ever questioned in my presence, so the dummy bottles full of explosive got through everytime !

What a pity the wheel was invented, if not, only prowling Dinosaurs would be all we had to worry about.

[BEagle]

Your thoughts on aviation in the mid-term 3-5 years, just extremely curious...

People will find it easier and far more enjoyable to go on holiday to North Korea than to the so-called 'Land of the Free'......

[interpreter]

The airline that has been most successful in thwarting aerial hi-jacking or bombing is the Isreali national airline - and why are they so successfuL
Profiling, profiling and more profiling. Until we shake off these "human rights" nuts all crew will have to live with terrorist risk. It will not be completely effective but it will be vastly better than the ridiculous full screening of 85 year old Caucasian ladies going to see their grandchildren in Chicago. BALPA could make this a key platform for public acceptance. Don't give these terrorists one moments peace. Hassle them, hassle their friends, hassle their families and anybody who might - just might be one themselves - male or female. You know it makes sense.

[Five Green]

Anyone know what they are using in these scanners ?

What are the health issues ? As someone who is going to have to go through these many times per month I would like to know what technologies they will be using ?

Cheers

FG

[Longtimer]

I guess we may see some resignations from airport security folks as some members of some societies are reportedly offended by the sight of a naked female and I guess will refuse to "man" the devices. :)

[Vmike]

Just a bit too convenient though, isn't it?

So, let's look at the facts:

1. The UK refuses to re-admit a Nigerian because of his connections to fundamentalist Muslim maniacs. The UK tells the US of their suspicions about this individual.
2. The CIA listens in to telephone conversations in Yemen in August that spoke of "The Nigerian".
3. A Nigerian banker goes to the US Embassy and states that his son is in Yemen, receiving training from muslim maniacs.
4. A Nigerian, using his own name, a name that was already known to the US and UK authorities, buys a one-way ticket to the US, with cash, and turns up with hand-baggage only.
5. This Nigerian, who has supposedly received training in how to blow up an airliner, then tries to detonate his bomb, not at altitude where it might have succeeded in bring the airplane down if it had exploded properly, but at low level where the airplane is barely pressurised, thus rendering a successful downing of the airliner unlikely, even if the bomb had worked.
6. The outcome: The security "industry" receives massive new funding for full-body scanners, huge budget increases for additional staff and untold new powers.

A cynic, who gets frisked every time he goes to work at the airport by a nasty little jobsworth given practically unlimited power in the interests of "security", might be forgiven for wondering whether the security industry knew this guy was coming and decided to let him through on the basis that a "spectacular" - and on Christmas Day too - was just what the industry needed to get them more funding and further unlimited power that they so badly want.

Just a thought.......

[RoyHudd]

It is generally people of a certain "faith" who want to blow up planes and commit acts of terrorism. Is this statement permissible? Because if not, we will never reduce the chances of further successful terrorist acts.

Clue: Roman Catholics, Jewish folk, Protestant followers, Anglicans, Buddhist people, Jehova's Witnesses, Eskimoes, Zulus, and a range of others have not perpetrated such dastardly deeds in the name of their respective faiths. ONE VERY LARGE GROUP have been singly responsible. And a couple of other Asian groups have also been guilty of such deeds. Naming no names.

Is profiling wrong?

[jcjeant]

Hi,

It is generally people of a certain "faith" who want to blow up planes and commit acts of terrorism

Roman Catholic ... hmmmm
What is the faith of the I.R.A terrorists ?

[Roger Dixon]

I would like to hear from Captains and FOs, who are being asked to decide whether SLF need to sit with their hands in their laps, can't move around, - especially last hour of the flight.

I feel sorry for cabin crew in this insane environment.

[421dog]

I was the subject of this scanning modality twice recently: at LAX and in Mexico.

On both occasions I tripped the magnetometer due to some bits of stainless steel holding my leg together, and the next step, absent any pat down was to proceed to the scanner.

Not a problem really, hold your arms out, wait for the bars to rotate by, turn 90 degrees and repeat. The downside of course, is that it is being used as secondary screening, so when I'm not driving a corporate plane, I'm stuck with it.

I'd be much happier if I could just opt for it up front.

[marchino61]

So, let's look at the facts:

1. The UK refuses to re-admit a Nigerian because of his connections to fundamentalist Muslim maniacs. The UK tells the US of their suspicions about this individual.


Not a fact. He was refused entry as the educational establishment he wanted to attend was considered a sham. Many people who are not terrorists work this scam to gain entry to the UK.

[Geetea]

The IRA never used Christianity as an excuse. They fought the British with the intention of creating an all Ireland republic.
Islam and Christianity are both very peaceful religions but as In everything, not just religion, people take texts from the Qur'an and the Bible out of context to suit their extremism. Small amount of people give both religions a bad name.

[wanabe2010]

it will create more job in security, industry, transport, maintenance, bureaucracy,...

all good for the economy.

why do you complaint?

[FlightlessParrot]

Full body scanning could be a great improvement, provided it replaces some other, more invasive measures. I would much rather be scanned by magic eyes (which seem to have no problematic radiation), rather than be patted down (especially as I will not have to look at images of myself). Of course this is security theatre, but we need a bit of security theatre so as not to make it too easy for loonies and opportunists. The more the Bad Guys have to plan, the more chance there is for intelligence services to pick up the information that will be really effective. Profiling would be good, too, as long as it's flexible. At the moment it's the Jihadis who are mostly threatening airlines, but lots of ideologies are capable of inspiring people to slaughter the innocent, not to mention the cases of aeroplanes that have been bombed to commit ordinary, old-fashioned murder. Profiling by itself won't stop everyone.

[gearhorn]

We have decided to cancel our planned trip from Los Angeles to Manchester England which was scheduled for February.

I can no longer endure the torture of long security lines, X-rays and magnetometers and other invasions of privacy for what is basically an illusion of security offered by our TSA. It is such a sham to have pay for this luxury and then worry every minute of the 720 minute trip that our airplane will not explode. Traveling by airplane today is dreadful and I just can no longer stand it, period.

gh

[korrol]

So in a cave in Bora Bora there are frowns beneath the turbans. How can the terrorists get around this latest multi million dollar technological obstacle placed in their path?

It takes 5 seconds to come up with the answer. Don't worry about the machine - just make sure the guy operating it is one of yours. Then he'll wave your suicide bombers through - underpants and all

[Graybeard]

Vmike:
3. A Nigerian banker goes to the US Embassy and states that his son is in Yemen, receiving training from muslim maniacs.

Hmm, how many times do you suppose family feuds escalate in to somebody being reported to authorities for falsified reasons?

GB

[sTeamTraen]

It takes 5 seconds to come up with the answer. Don't worry about the machine - just make sure the guy operating it is one of yours. Then he'll wave your suicide bombers through - underpants and all
One would hope that the shift patterns would take that into account, and not make it predictable who is scanning and supervising at any one gate.

Of course, one would also hope that the people are awake on the job and that the security cameras work, but here's a case (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/01/06/new.jersey.security.breach/index.html) where neither happened. Oh look, and it's not the EU's fault either.

[Vmike]

"Hmm, how many times do you suppose family feuds escalate in to somebody being reported to authorities for falsified reasons?

GB

Well, it doesn't seem so in this case, does it.

[tocamak]

The body scanners that I have been through recently have the main problem of being slower than the walk-through detectors but no doubt they will be further developed. They are certainly not as intrusive as some of the pat-downs I have had to endure.

To the cynics, and particularly Vmike and ExSpdb1rd, you are very quick to rubbish any attempts to take some action and seem to take it as a personal affront to your way of life.
Vmike comes out with:-
might be forgiven for wondering whether the security industry knew this guy was coming and decided to let him through

On what basis do you make this assertion and are you really serious? You meet people like you all the time who have to see conspiracy everywhere and no doubt you get frisked down everytime he goes to work at the airport by a nasty little jobsworth as part of this overall conspiracy

Presumably the nasty little jobsworth is a different person from time to time (unless truly someone has a personal vendetta against you).

Waste of time, the bad boys will do exactly what they want to do, precisely when they want to do it - regardless of any measures

Well events tend not to back that up unless the "bad boys" have decided not to bother too much. Do you imply that nothing at all should be done to thwart any attacks.

Security at airports is here to stay but the challenge is for it to be at a level that can work and be acceptable given the time it adds to the process of getting through the airport. In my view profiling does have it's place and goes on anyway. The general public seem to be accepting of the measures and certainly the majority would prefer advances in technology rather than some of the cynics answers.

[Piltdown Man]

The modern, full body scanner is only one step short of you taking all of your clothes off. The reason you don't have to is because the machine does it for you. It is reasonable that members of the general public actually get to see the images seen by the the screener and also understand the communication between the screener and the person controlling people entering the scanner. Personally, I don't mind what people see of me but I can fully understand what many people might not wish to wish to pass through these machines. But I'm going to suggest that when these machines are introduced, those being scanned will not have a clue of the detail that can be seen nor of the conversations between the security staff. I think that omission is wrong.

Futhermore, will these machines actually make things safer? Not on your life! The bad boys will use different methods to take prohibited articles airside and then, as now, we'll still be vulnerable to their attacks. This is because we follow rules and procedures which in my opinion are written by the wrong people (Transec, part of DfT). In the UK we also employ certain type of person whose job it is just to follow documented procedures.

But there is no proper checking, you are not allowed to question anything and everone and everything is considerered to be a threat. And this is the bit I object to. I have to pay for this system, my job is put under threat as a result and we are no safer as a result of this so called security activity. But the most dreadful thing is that not even your MP can get a straight answer - for security reasons!

When we have a more open system and when we can call the security system to account I'll be happier. Until then the system we have will never be anything more than expensive, wasteful theatre. The new scanners will just increase the queues and the cost, achieving diddly-squat!

My money is on the bad guys getting through!

PM

[Sir George Cayley]

When I was younger and flying more often, I used to love the whole airport thing, the romance of flying, the excitement prior to boarding. As a red blooded male with a penchant for females in uniform, I was in heaven:ok:

You can see where this is going;)

I wonder what procedures Transec will put in place for males showing a reluctance to be scanned? And what about the operator?

OK, silly I know, but that's my take on the whole charade. Has any viable device under the control of an active terrorist ever been detected through a random x-ray? The pax on the 330 probably felt reasssured by the security they went through at AMS - wonder what they think now?

So body scanners are installed making life that bit more difficult. Terrorists have already taken to having explosives surgically inserted inside their bodies; will they be detected? Or will everyone with a post op scar now have to go through extra checks?

No, it ain't over by a long chalk (I nearly said 'till the fat Mullah sings' but that would be politically incorrect, so I didn't)

Sir George Cayley

[MaxReheat]

OK. I admit I was semi-comatosed whilst listening to the Beeb's news at 0800 this morning but I'm sure that I heard the word 'profiling' used in the report on the introduction of scanners. Perhaps the mesage is finally making inroads amongst the non-thnkers at the DfT. Here's an opportunity for BALPA to get of its fat, overpaid arse and start to push the agenda for once.:D

[B Fraser]

We have decided to cancel our planned trip from Los Angeles to Manchester England which was scheduled for February

You didn't miss much. Think of Detroit with trams.

[Tediek]

I very much struggle with this. When terrorist want something they are smart enough to figure it out. They are everywhere and plan their actions carefully. A few years ago, it was a granate, then it was a bottle, then your fork and knife, then they figured to make something out of toothpaste, gel and others, now its powder, what is next? who says they are not infiltrated in the pilot/handling/security network. One day they get the call it's their turn.

I am not saying we should not do anything at all, but its getting silly now. in the future you have to be 6 hours in advance to catch a flights. The cost involved in this is enormous. This morning I heard on the news the security of the countries were aware of the buy wanting to blow up the plane but didnt respond. Welll what do you want to do then?

Luckily i make around 90 flights a year, this is going to fun this year.....:sad:

[By George]

Full Body scanners are comming and I'm off to buy some new undies and a large watch. Captain Milo and Captain Yossanrian from 'Catch-22' will seem 'normal' in a few years time. The World is totally mad.

[DutchBird-757]

Why all this fuss about the body scanners? Bring them on! They should have been in place years ago. If you've got nothing to hide it's no problem. So stop complaining!

Regarding privary, as long as the person/computer screening the images does not physically see the person being scanned it's no problem.

Yes, terrorist will find another way but at least we gotta try an make life difficult for them. If only goverments could become pro-active...

[CargoOne]

I have experienced body scanners in Moscow airports, I think they are in operation for over a year there. Unfortunately you are still required to get your belt, watch, coat, jacket and even shoes off before entering into scanner.
If there will be body scanners and procedures where you can drop hand luggage into x-ray and just get yourself scanned without taking anything off - I would love it, and I don't care if anybody see me naked on the screen.

[interpreter]

As one of my flying colleagues said " You dont look for dogs in a cattery"

Yes. that makes sense

[despegue]

CargoOne:
Not correct. last time I went through Domodedovo, I kept my shoes and belt on. No requirement to undo them.

[Basil]

" You dont look for dogs in a cattery"
Unless the dog is licking its paws, purring and biding its time :hmm:

Paranoid? Moi?

[a.carneiro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do these new full body scanners not use ionising radiation (more specifically, X-Rays)?
And if so, what dosage? How much compared to, say, a standard Chest X-Ray?

Will there be the option to opt out?
Personally, I would much rather be frisked than have my cellular DNA bombarded with God-knows-what-beams...

[Flapskew]

What happens to those with silicone breast or testicle implants? I know a few crew with such implants and guess they will now have the squeeze and feel test.

[Skittles]

They don't use any ionising radiation whatsoever.

Your cell phone kicks out more energy than this machine.

[emjanssen]

Radiation.... or not?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do these new full body scanners not use ionising radiation (more specifically, X-Rays)?
And if so, what dosage? How much compared to, say, a standard Chest X-Ray?

Will there be the option to opt out?
Personally, I would much rather be frisked than have my cellular DNA bombarded with God-knows-what-beams...


http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/352687-eu-blocks-airport-virtual-strip-search.html

[tintinminos]

These scanners use millimeter wave (high radio frequency) technology which is not ionising. The only radiation which has enough energy to ionise is the likes of UV, X-rays and Gamma rays. Microwaves from your phone for example, cannot ionise however much power is output. A very high energy microwave might make you feel a little warm inside however.....

[Bally Heck]

Full body scanner =£100,000ish and apparently unlikely to detect the xmas bombers device.

Sniffer dog = £1000 plus a supply of Pedigree Chum and 99% effective against most explosives.

Where do these morons who govern us get their brains from?

I would love to see who the manufacturer's slush fund recipients are.

[strake]

As a regular flyer, I'm not really concerned about the "flight" part of the process. Despite all the hoo-hah about the Nigerian idiot, the ability to get enough dangerous stuff onboard or enough bad people to enable a 911 scenario has been minimalised. My concern is landside and I have to say that is where I do get twitchy. In the current environment, I think it is the most dangerous part of the process. From the entrance to the terminals to the access routes to scanners/security checks, the environment is highly congested, probably with more people than would be on an aircraft. I'm afraid I can't see how a couple of armed bobbies would deal with the sort of instant devastation that can be caused by two or three committed Terry T.

[Tercarley]

Ive got one of these metal ball and socket shoulder joints. Will I be stopped all the time and my upper half strip searched?

[MathFox]

Tercarley, you should pass a full body scan without much effort, iff the wounds of your surgery closed cleanly. Those scanners don't look through the skin.

[PAXboy]

Bally HeckWhere do these morons who govern us get their brains from? Managers and politicians always prefer to buy hardware. They like toys that they can see. Lots of whirring and flashing lights is always preferable to the really hard graft of human interface.

Dogs are cheaper and more user friendly and, I should not be surprised, more efficient because their noses don't get bored looking at a screen and, even if they are not looking at the target - their nose is still working. BUT - they will always buy machines that hold out the ideal of being fair and equal and impartial and blah blah blah.

The manufacturers do not need a slush fund. They only have to invent it - and it gets bought. The equivalent is arms makers. They simply invent a more efficient rifle/bullet/grenade and the military are salivating to have it. I expect that many airport managers are thrilled at being compelled to buy this stuff. I did work in IT for 25+ years and have seen the way hardware attracts them.

[BrianG]

A bit of levity to a difficult problem - warning, there is a bit of swearing:

YouTube - Ronnie Johns - Chopper Airport Security (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymgRMG5JNOI&feature=related)

[Mr Pilot 2007]

These body scanners have being around for a while. Just not used at most airports.

THEY have being waiting for an incident like this to URGENTLY approve their use at airports.

Just so long as all the d*****d polititions and security d*****ds have to be scanned every time as well. No exceptions.

When you see the number of vehicles going airside, it would be much easier to hide explosives on, or in those vehicles.

The terrorist d*****ds win every time, because of the HUGE cost and inconvenience they are causing to all airline paxs and crew.

They must be sitting in their little caves in the hills of Afganistan and Yemen laughing their heads off.

[Albert Salmon]

I am a 65-year-old frequent flyer, with very few hangups about having to undergo security procedures before embarking.

But if a certain middle-aged security operative at LGW north terminal gropes my genital again on the pretence of "frisking me" I will scream (yes, scream) blue bloody murder.

The last time he did that (27 December 2009, 07:15 a.m.) I glanced towards his security clearance badge. He immediately covered it with his hand, telling me that his name was "privileged and confidential information".

[hotmetal]

In my opinion it soumds like a sexual assault. Call the police. You cannot reasonably expect to have your genitals groped everytime you go to the airport.
A person (A) commits an offence if— .
(a)
he intentionally touches another person (B), .
(b)
the touching is sexual, .
(c)
B does not consent to the touching, and .
(d)
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

A certain person groping genitals regularly has to be sexual doesn't it?

[Basil]

Flapskew,
What happens to those with silicone breast or testicle implants? I know a few crew with such implants
We will understand if you decline to tell us under what circumstances you came into posession of this information. :E

[PAXboy]

BasilWe will understand if you decline to tell us under what circumstances you came into possession of this information.On the contrary, you HAVE to tell us all you know. It is a LEGAL requirement of having made the statement.

Come on, we need something to cheer us up in the snow. :}

[tigermoth123]

The original concept for body scanners was to reduce manning levels of security staff and increase the " Find " rate of would be baddies.

The machines have been in the design mode for a number of years and there are various models with various screens for viewing. ( Body as per newspapers and stick men/women for the equal rights brigade)

The pressure on airports to increase efficency, find rates and footfall within the terminal shops has been highlighted at various times.

Low cost airlines placed even greater pressure on the airports to increase "buying time" within these outlets.

As for the cost of these machines,,, why has it not been taken from the security levy which each passenger has been paying for over the past number of years, originaly , I beleive that one of the reasons was to ensure nobody could gain access to the flight deck,,,,,, must have been an awful lot of flightdecks.

The DfT appear to have the mindset of " We know best and, you will do as we say" which smacks of civil servant , eighteenth century school boys ignorance.

Whilst I am sure that these people try to justify the measures which they lay down, surely it would be of more benefit to take the best parts of security on a worldwide basis.

There has been an attempt by the EU to standardise the security requirements of all member states, unfortunately not every member state can afford the same costs.

Therefore chaos rules, and whatever can go wrong, will go wrong.

Maybe an ideal world of technology and passenger profiling, supported by government agencies and a constant updating of security staff on security threats and issues, instead of the secrecy policies that senior members of staff seem to have.

Just like the DfT when they test the systems, the staff are not informed at the time, but some hours later after the DfT speak with the managers, I assume that it must be a secret, shame that you leave the staff who failed the test carrying on with their duties for a number of hours.

Suppose there will never be a truly secure airport.:=

[Xeque]

YouTube - Man finds alternative way through the beeping airport security (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srH5-siea3Q&NR=1)

[PAXboy]

tigermoth123 You really shouldn't write about things like common sense and government departments and cross-Europe coordination in the same paragraph. Please, just act as dumb as they do. :hmm:

Welcome aboard the cabin of PPRuNe, you'll find everything runs very smoothly here, the service is fantastic and no one ever argues with anyone else - just harmony and light between you and your fellow pax.

:}

[Saintsman]

Sorry, I just had to post this one.

In an attempt to go one better at smuggling explosives onto an aircraft, a suicide bomber has an enema and replaces the entire contents of his lower bowel with Semtex.

Despite appearing nervous and suspicious, he passes through all the sophisticated automatic detection equipment and feeling very confident, approaches the hand baggage check.

The baggage checker looks through his hand luggage and sizes him up.

"Sorry mate", the baggage checker says , "You can't board the aircraft"

"But why not? - You haven't found anything in my luggage"

"I know" says the checker - but we're well trained and I can tell that you're carrying more than 100ml of shampoo"

[L'aviateur]

To be completely honest, these full body scanners do not bother me in anyway, and I doubt my family will really care. I have been through them many times before in Schiphol (of all places!!!) and they don't bother me. But I do agree that the question is are they really going to improve security, are they that good?

[ConstantFlyer]

Until someone comes up with a way of discerning intent, none of this security equipment is going to be any great use. In George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four, the Thought Police were able to control the population using a mix of psychology and surveillance. However, it seems this was a teensy bit labour-intensive, and if replicated in the real world might be considered over-intrusive. But perhaps we might nonetheless be better using more psychology and surveillance, and fewer physical searches generally.

[alldaysushi]

The powers to be @ LHR want the public to believe the naked body scans are deleted automatically through software.

Let us not forget a dose of so many roentegens of radiation every time...

There are many historic examples of forced nudity...Prison, death chamber, rape, etc...



Check this link.
digg.com/.../Indian_Actor_autographed_Airport_Naked_Body_Scanner_Images.

Couldn't be the politicians are once again linning there own pockets, with investments in this technology.

Lets make the right moves for the right reasons, not just for submission's sake.

One slice of Salami at a time, and the war is lost.