Improving Terms and Conditions. Start at The Top or The Bottom?

[Roger Greendeck]

I have read with interest over many years, discussions about terms and conditions with a range of pilot employers and how our personal employment choices affect the T&Cs for everyone else. Rather than hijack other threads I think this deserves a thread of its own.

I like most readers here, I earn my living from flying and would like to do so for the rest of my working life. Hence I have a significant interest in T&Cs not going backwards and improving where possible. The question to me though is where should we put our collective effort?

The phrase that sticks with me from having read so many posts is 'race to the bottom'. This is often accompanied by a complaint that pilots taking jobs that are considered undercutting pay compared to the legacy carrier rates is undermining us all.

My view, however, is that pilots only take jobs because they are better than where they are now (or would be in the near future if they remain with their current employer). When they take this new job it is because it is the best available to them. eg if an experienced captain who wants to move back to Australia was offered a DEC position with QANTAS and VA they would take QANTAS. But as the DEC position with QANTAS is not on offer or ever likely to be a DEC with VA becomes a more attractive offer.

The same goes for entry level with RPT. If T&C in GA are very poor then pilots will take a low paying job with a regional because it is better. Likewise they will leave said regional for a LCC because it is better. Remonstrations that by taking these jobs they are undercutting pilots already in well paying RPT positions mean little when you are earning bugger all and working really hard for it.

My suggestion is that our collective effort and in particular union effort should go towards to low end of the scale not the high end. If the low end improves the high end must shift in order to remain attractive. If we concentrate of the high end then there is room for undercutting it and there will always be pilots with good reason to take those jobs.

[RENURPP]

I couldn't agree more. 100% correct.
I personally would go back to GA if the terms and conditions were more attractive. I find airline flying extremely monotonous, unrewarding, basically mind numbing, and add to that the never ending time away from home plays havoc with a normal social life.
As we saw during the last couple of years when it was slightly harder to attract the more experienced personnel, some companies improved the terms and conditions to attract people. If it was less attractive for pilots to try and climb the ladder or for pilots like me to move back to GA, the higher end may have to dangle a bigger carrot.
The major hurdle of course is over coming pilot GREED and the inertia of the unions.

[43Inches]

Unfortunatly this is aviation today and conditions are slowly worsening. The only problem with the fix it from the bottom scenario is that the airlines then ignore GA and regionals and switch to sponsored cadet programs, this has happened in the past and is already happening around the globe.

Some research from the 70's shows BEA were employing very low paid SFOs who eventualy tried to stand up for themselves only to find the captains ignoring or against them. It led to the loss of at least one aircraft.

Unless all pilots become involved in a single union covering all of aviation in Australia the individual companies will be able to dictate terms as required.

How do you stop the rot from the bottom? The ones at the top have to form a proffessional group which is vocal to the government and public. They would attempt to place limits on training/recruitment and need a strong influence on minimum type salaries at all companies so as to avoid the ridiculous awards set in place. Most of all they would need the support of all pilots to do this, is this possible?

[Ken Borough]

They would attempt to place limits on training/recruitment

Isn't this the practice of some professions for which they have been roundly condemned and which Governments have moved to ban? Tell me, just how do you propose to implement such limits? In the market economy, just as night follows day, there will always be those who pay money to achieve certain goals and those who will accept anything to achieve their goals. Aviation is not any different.

Roger's analysis is correct. RENURPP's comment about "GREED" is also correct - just look at the mindset of some of the unions at legacy carriers who are fighting like mad to hold onto their outdated and inappropriate Ts&Cs. While not naming names, you don't have far to look. :E

[43Inches]

Training places in some maritime and medicine practices are limited. This is the way to fix the problem however of course the government and commercial operators are against it. The cheap flow of goods and people is their primary concern, the less pilots are paid the cheaper cost of air travel.


just look at the mindset of some of the unions at legacy carriers who are fighting like mad to hold onto their outdated and inappropriate Ts&Cs


So what is an inapropriate T or C that is being pursued?

[roger_ramjet]

The race to the bottom has already been won in Europe. I was reading some of the other forums on this site the other day and was amazed at the audacity of easyjet - they charge 34000 pounds for a cadet to do a 737 endo with 500 hours copilot and only pay them 50 pounds/ flight hour on the job. So 34000 pounds in - 25000 out = 9000 pound profit per pilot. After 500 hours they show them the door and get another one in, keeping them makes no sense as it would erode the profit margin!!!

Airlines like this prey on the demand in the market and the supply of cashed-up kids who don't care about the greater industry and the erosion of T&Cs. Locally, even rex are openly recruiting cadets instead of direct entry FOs as they get to keep the cadets a lot longer (as announced in Aust Aviation magazine interview a few months back).

[roger_ramjet]

Just re-read the easy/ryan forum discussion, I think I got it mostly right but you can read it yourselves here:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/399371-more-easyjet-pilot-slavery-deals-oxford-aviation-academy.html

[snoop doggy dog]

You need to start everywhere Roger :uhoh:

You have a situation in Aviation where people are generally looking out for Number 1. People at the bottom of the pile cop whatever pay the boss offers, say thankyou for it and then winge to everyone about their crappy pay. They generally wont stand up for themselves, expect someone else to do the hard yards for their pay negotiations and offer support as long as the boss doesn,t know about it. :ugh:

Then, the people up the top of the pile seem to think that they are on a nice little wicket for themselves and are still looking out for Number 1. "I'm right Jack." They don't wont to upset the boss, as they are doing alright and offer support (behind closed doors) for someone else to do their dirty work too, however, the boss can't know that they are supporting this person/ people, as they don't want to upset the apple cart. :ugh:

People who have been in the game for a while, need to look after the guys (girls) at the bottom, help and educate them. The guys at the bottom need to support the ones at the top and vica versa. A solid foundation will benefit all. The guy at the bottom needs to be looked after and not sh!t on. :rolleyes: Have a look at senior piolts at most places and they are right with their conditions. They offer verbal support and not too much else. Most below are back-stabbing and under-cutting each other to climb their way to the top.:D Management know, so make the most of it. :p

You need guidance from the top and support at all levels. You need an Organisation that can Organise and offer guidance to it's members on how to do things right. You need members that are willing to stick together, organise themselves and look out for each other. :) GA is screwed in Oz, as it has a near useless "Association" and people are getting whatever they can for themselves. :ugh: The foundation is not built at all. :=

To acheive the conditions, that most pilots would like in Aviation, it would require an effort from everyone and everyone to want to raise the bar together. Do you think you could rely on the people around you to support each other? I look around where I am and realise not. We are a little bit organised and have amongst the best conditions in the world. This is on the decline however. Last year our committee gave up 5% of our pay (special leave) without consulting the membership, so they could look good! :suspect: It was "Voluntary," however, if you are a part of a membership, you All need to move forward together, or get out of dodge.

As soon as pilots' realise that the problem starts with THEM, and that they are better working together (Strength in Unity), things can improve at a better rate.

When I started in Aviation 15 years ago, I expected a lot of comradery between pilots. Very quickley I got a rude shock. :p It was pointed out to me long ago, that there is a "ME" in "TEAM."

My 2 cents worth :ok:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

One thing I have noticed over the past 5 years is that T & C's in GA are on the improve espesially with operators such as the RFDS (with the exception of Central Section). QLD, South Eastern and Western Ops have given a lot of ground in regards to remuneration and there is no sign that this trend will not continue.

To my mind unless the situation with the airlines settles down soon I will remain in single crew with a very stable operator who looks after you. Things have become so bad that the big jet draw card is no longer enough. There comes a time when you have to put food on the table in a house you own or will own someday. Selling your soul as a go anywhere do anything for whatever pay and perhaps even a big debt will not make for a rewarding career where you feel valued. Its just that simple. There has to be a bottom line and if this ain't it I don't want to be involved with it.
SN

[Super Cecil]

It will never happen, get used to it, wages and conditions are only going down. If pilots tried to operate how the strongest union in Australia (AMA) does they wouldn't last a week, those with a memory know what happens.

[Arnold E]

Please give me YOUR definition of a UNION?

[Roger Greendeck]

I think that it is overly pessimistic to say that conditions will always go down. As long as pilots are needed then people will have to pay for their services. At some point of it continues down people wont enter the industry. It is my understanding that pilot training for pilots who are going to remain in Australia has decreased over the last twenty years. Therefore at some point the inevitable shortage will give us more capability to push for better T&C but and this is a big but it requires good organisation and a sound strategy.

Personally I find it astonishing that the general public still think of us as overpaid and underworked when there are people doing jobs with: far less work, that required far less training to get into, and has little risk to the public but still get paid in the mid $100k a year. A concerted effort to bring the public on side would not go astray. After all with more people flying than ever before more people have an interest in our ability to operate safely.

[psycho joe]

The concept of solidarity is largely lost on young male Pilots.

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The idea of standing together to improve everyone’s conditions and wanting to leave an industry in better shape than you found it is one that is learned through maturity and bitter experience.

The AFAP could do themselves and their constituents a massive service if only they would properly represent GA.


Why aren't AFAP reps visiting flying schools?


Why aren't AFAP reps seeking to educate fresh CPL's on their rights at work, how the industry works, potential pitfalls and why (for example) it's a bad idea to work for free? ( For a start there'd be a lot less "How can I get ahead whilst screwing everyone else" threads on PPRuNe. )


Why aren't AFAP reps visiting GA organizations to extol the virtues of what a cohesive group could achieve with union backing?


It irks me when people excuse the ineffectiveness of the AFAP by explaining that F stands for Federation (As opposed to Union.) The BLF is also a Federation.:hmm:... Labourers get better representation than us. :ooh:


The only people that I can find who wilfully believe in the AFAP as a representative force; do so because to admit otherwise is to admit that the union previously committed an act of gross stupidity. Which not only hurt their constituents but the industry as a whole.


I blame the complete lack of grass roots representation on why pilots learn to look after no-one but number one.

[Josh Cox]

The only way conditions will improve at the bottom end is to have a skills shortage, i.e. less taking up the profession.

Employers are then forced to compete with each other, not pilots.

If every commercial pilot went to their local flying school, right now, and cut the brake lines on just one student pilots car each, we would see an increase in pay and conditions directly :).

[xxgoldxx]

while I dont want to belittle anyones right to stand up for a fair pay I think we could all do with a dose of reality now and then as well..

we should all do 6 months as a builders or brickies labourer doing 10-12 hour days 6 days a week before flight training just to keep it in context..

we do after all have F & D to look after us (for good reason of course..)

lets say we do our 900 hours a year with an an average 5 flight and 8 duty a day.. with 4 weeks off a year thats 3.75 days a week...

Hardly slaving ... and I dont think you will find too many doctors or lawyers on those hours either...

[Captain Nomad]

lets say we do our 900 hours a year with an an average 5 flight and 8 duty a day.. with 4 weeks off a year thats 3.75 days a week...

Hardly slaving ... and I dont think you will find too many doctors or lawyers on those hours either...

While I can see what you're saying, unless you are in an upper-end GA job or an airline doing those hours, quite often pilots need to work a SECOND JOB on top of those hours in order to survive financially. How many Dr's/Lawyers do you see doing THAT...?

It generally takes a pilot a long time to get to the point where he can have those 'easier' hours with a corresponding paycheck. From my observations, I reckon a lot of pilots (perhaps not the ones who have had recent quick progression) can be up to around 10 years behind financially compared to peers who chose other careers. If they are then in a job that 'appears' to be overpaid they probably need and deserve it in order to catch up on all the 'lost time...'

[Counter-rotation]

xxgold
With respect, I don't think your comparison is valid. I'm not saying any pilot is better than a labourer (or doctor or lawyer or whatever) OR vice versa
There is simply to many points of difference between a commercial pilot and a labourer to make a meaningful comparison.

As far as the guts of this thread goes, and to the OP -

I reckon you can boil it down simply to this:
A) Some pilots fly simply for the love of it (and will take any T&C);
B) Some pilots go to work just for the $$ (and they may not have started out that way either! :})
Most lie somewhere in between these two extremes.

Until you can get these diverse personalities to agree on some middle ground, the problem will persist.

That's just what I think, simplified. You could talk for ever about this issue!!

CR.