Russian bomber patrols

[737-500]

Hi all
This is my first post in the military section and I will be the first to admit I know very little about military aviation so please bear with me! I have read previous posts about Russian bombers probing NATO airspace over the past few years and I have a few questions that hopefully someone can answer.

1.How often would NATO fighters have to intercept these bombers?
2.Are these bombers armed and if so with what type of weapons?
3.What routing's would they take when heading towards UK or wherever they decide to go?
4.What happens if they cross an airway and how would ATC handle this?
5.Roughly how long would a typical mission last?
6.Also does the US have patrols like these with their bombers?

I hope I have not asked too many stupid questions and I hope someone can help me with answers

Thanks in advance
B735

[getsometimein]

1.How often would NATO fighters have to intercept these bombers?
2.Are these bombers armed and if so with what type of weapons?
3.What routing's would they take when heading towards UK or wherever they decide to go?
4.What happens if they cross an airway and how would ATC handle this?
5.Roughly how long would a typical mission last?
6.Also does the US have patrols like these with their bombers?

Since most of this in my eyes is secret, we'll cover it sensibly.

1. Whenever they are deemed a threat... Not daily if thats what you're worried about.
2. Probably, search for "Bear", "Backfire" and "Blackjack" on here (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/index.html), and there associated weapons.
3. Draw a line from Russia, without going within 12miles of any other country, and thats a rough idea of a routing they are allowed to take.
4. Nothing like annoying someone by flying through restricted or controlled airspace, thankfully the Ruskies are not idiots, they dont want to bump into another plane.
5. 14hrs or so isn't out of the realms of possibility.
6. Almost certainly, wasn't *that* long ago they always had a couple of Nuclear armed B52's over europe.

Hope thats alright.

[seafuryfan]

For Soviet flights close to state borders, all routes had to avoid sectors which took the ac to less than 50km from the border, and had to avoid approach angles to a state border closer than 30 degrees (In the case of certain flights, the state border included those of Warsaw Pact countries).

When carrrying out Elint gathering flights, these rules were not enforced. For example, Blinder ac (operating as a pair, at least once a month along the NATO border) occassionaly penetrated West German airspace by as much as 80km. The lead ac Elint gathered, (including locating the relatively easy to find Pershing 2) while No2 ac navigated. NATO radars were stimulated from standby to active mode by use of the Blinder's Rubin-1L nav radar, steered in manual in the expected direction of the threat radar.

These missions were afforded top priority, sometimes taking places when the weather was deemed otherwise unsuitable for flying.

Recce flights by Tu-22s were countered by NATO fighters. For example, Norwegian F16s would position themsleves underneath the payload bay to avoid photograph taking. Problem was, oblique cameras were later fitted in addition to the verticals. The first F16 would then act as a spotter, and the second would block either the oblique or vertical camera thought to be in use, depending on the direction of the target.

Total flight duration for an Atlantic recce launching from Zyabravoka, Sol'tsy, Olenyegorsk, and Severomorsk (via Trondheim), including two in-flight refuelling from Tu-16s was about 9 hrs. For the Blinder, this limit was due to pilot fatigue in the single-seat cockpit.

[TEEEJ]

Welcome B735,

The following is an audio of a 24th Nov 09 scramble and intercept of two Tu-95MS Bear H.

http://www.milspotters.nl/forumfiles/QRA_BearsH_20091124.wav

The recording is nearly 12 minutes long and includes intercept of air-to-air communications between the two Bears in the North Sea.

05:46 is the portion of the audio where the Russians can be first heard. The main part is the Royal Netherlands Air Force scramble of their F-16s. They also mention that Danish and British QRA are in contact or have scrambled.

09:14 onwards you can hear the aircrew on the Bears chat about the RAF Tornado

Link to image of Royal Netherlands Air Force F-16 intercepting Tu-95MS Bear H on the 24th Nov 09.

http://www.milspotters.nl/forum/userpix/616_kerst_323_2009_voorkant_2.jpg

News article for the 24th Nov mission

'Russian strategic bombers conclude regular patrol flight'

Russian strategic bombers conclude regular patrol flight_English_Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-11/25/content_12539501.htm)

1.
Essentially every time they come out to play. Russia has recently announced that they will increase the number of multiple aircraft patrols.

'Russia may double the number of bombers on strategic patrols as long as the General Staff agrees, the commander of Russia's strategic aviation said Tuesday.

"As a rule, up to four strategic bombers perform patrol flights simultaneously. However, under specific circumstances and on orders from the General
Staff, their number could be increased to up to eight aircraft," Russian Long-Range Aviation Commander Major-General Anatoly Zhikharev said at a press
conference.'

Russia has also announced a stealth project to replace the Tu-95s and Tu-160s.

Russia may double bombers on strategic patrol: general - People's Daily Online (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90853/6849598.html)

Norway will have the most traffic due to their geographic location. Norwegian Quick Reaction Alert will get to intercept such bomber types as Tu-22M

Backfires that don't have the range to go further south.

2.
Some of the bombers will be armed. It all depends on what type of training mission they are undertaking. The largest exercise in recent years was the
launching of air launched cruise missiles in the Atlantic during 2008. The Russians announced a closure area for naval and air force missile launches

involving Tu-160 Blackjacks.

Russian strategic bombers to join drills in Atlantic_English_Xinhua (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-01/23/content_7475056.htm)

RAF jets scrambled as Russian bombers join war manoeuvres off Atlantic coast | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-509709/RAF-jets-scrambled-Russian-bombers-join-war-manoeuvres-Atlantic-coast.html)

Some of the bombers (Tu-95/Tu-160) will carry missiles internally on their rotary launchers. After completing their out of area patrols they will then fire
their cruise missiles onto targets ranges in the sea or on land.

Russian Planes Launch Cruise Missiles - Kommersant Moscow (http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=-9381)

“Two Tu-160 and two Tu-95 airplanes launched cruise missiles in the course of command staff exercises in the long-distance aviation section led by
commander of the 37th air army of the Main High Strategic Command Lieut. Gen. Igor Khvorov,” Drobyshevsky said.

The missiles hit their targets precisely,” Drobyshevsky added. He said that the planes were in the air for over ten hours with an in-air refueling. “At the
same time, missiles were successfully launched on the Guryanoovo and Emba ranges by six long-range bombers,” Drobyshevsky added.

3.
As already mentioned they fly in international airspace. For example the mission on the 24th Nov 09 would take them out into the Barents Sea and down off the coast of Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands before heading north again off the east coast of the UK.

4. The Russian would sometimes in the 1990s and 00s issue a time-frame when the flights would take place. In recent years the pre-announcements have dried up leading to some concern that a flight safety issue might occur.

House of Commons - Russia: a new confrontation? - Defence Committee (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmdfence/276/27605.htm)

'However, Russian military aircraft have entered the UK Flight Information Region—outside UK territorial airspace—without permission. This is part of
international airspace and, as such, Russia is able to exercise its defence capabilities there. Yet all countries are required to communicate that they are
making such flights under the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) regulations to which Russia is signatory.[77] The MoD told us that in 2007
Russian military aircraft attempted to enter this airspace without permission on ten separate days; in 2008 on six separate days; and in 2009 (up until 1 May 2009) on two separate days......

Group Captain Malcolm Crayford agreed:

The flights do not pose a threat to the UK; they are flying in international airspace but [...] we are concerned on flight safety grounds as these aircraft
cut across some of the busiest air routes in the world. Whilst we intercept them with RAF aircraft, the UK's air defence system can track Russian aircraft
throughout and we liaise with our civil air traffic control counterparts in terms of safety.'

5.
You can get some idea from the Russian annoucements in the media. Ten hours up to sixteen hour missions. Recently the Tu-160s have deployed to Venezuela.

6.
Yes, but not specifically aimed at patrolling off the Russian coastline. The US will use types such as RC-135s and EP-3s on intelligence collection missions.

The USAF recently activated Global Strike Command with the emphasis being on the nuclear mission.

Air Force Global Strike Command activated (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123162363)

Like SAC (http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2009/June%202009/0609SAC.aspx)

The US conduct strategic bomber power projection missions which includes using the UKs weapons ranges. The Pacific area is also heavily used for such
missions, for example.

B-2 aircrew participates in exercise in Pacific (http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123140612)

Russian Strategic Aviation - An Imagery Overview.

http://geimint.*************/2007/07/russian-strategic-aviation-imagery.html

Google the above header if the link doesn't appear fully.

TJ

[Pontius Navigator]

4.What happens if they cross an airway and how would ATC handle this?

I didn't see an answer to this.

From a military perspective the flights may be conducted under 'rules' where military accepts responsibility and operates under 'due regard'. This means that flight information is not passed to ATC and the military will try and avoid other aircraft.

From a civilian perspective, where they are made aware of military incursion into controlled airspace they will either broadcast a warning if the military operations are known to be present but they cannot see the aircraft. Otherwise they will issue avoidance instructions to the civilian aircraft under control.

An example has been in the Agean where either Greek or Turkish air forces have declared operational exercises.

[M609]

The Russian carrier captain that found it best to let his airwing pratice landings right in the middle of an oilfield with a lot of civ helo tfc a couple of years ago was certainly making some kind of point.

[Orange Poodle]

Since most of this in my eyes is secret, we'll cover it sensibly.

1. Whenever they are deemed a threat... Not daily if thats what you're worried about.
2. Probably, search for "Bear", "Backfire" and "Blackjack" on here (http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/index.html), and there associated weapons.
3. Draw a line from Russia, without going within 12miles of any other country, and thats a rough idea of a routing they are allowed to take.
4. Nothing like annoying someone by flying through restricted or controlled airspace, thankfully the Ruskies are not idiots, they dont want to bump into another plane.
5. 14hrs or so isn't out of the realms of possibility.
6. Almost certainly, wasn't *that* long ago they always had a couple of Nuclear armed B52's over europe.

Hope thats alright.

Can't fully understand your perspective getsometimein....

Secret from whom? Didn't the Russians know how many aircraft they sent, where, when and whether they were armed? or is it us who aren't allowed to know....

Are the capabilities of Lightings and Phantoms still relevant?

Okay, there are some operational issues that may still need to remain secret but they are hardly likely to be discussed on here

OP

[Pontius Navigator]

OP,

I think his caution comes under the banner:

They know we know they know we know what they do but do they know we know?

[davejb]

With respect,
that the Sovs did things, and therefore knew all about them already, never to my knowledge prevented the RAF and others from highly classifying the information about sov actions, and our reactions... One of those 'but do they know that we know that they know what we think they know?' things, perhaps.

I would presume that talking in general terms about this sort of topic is okay, but a bit of circumspection now and again isn't necessarily going over the top.

[PEI_3721]

They know we know they know we know what they do but do they know we know?

Yes Minister!

Re crossing airways / Atlantic tracks; I recall one winters evening when Buchan reported that an ‘Air India’ 747 had just seen two Bears in mid Atlantic – relayed via Shanwick. Leuchars Q was put on standby, i.e. have your evening meal and expect a launch later.
Given the location and approx heading, Q was duly launched on spec at the appropriate time to find the two aircraft in the Iceland-Faroes gap retuning from Cuba.

[Squirrel 41]

davejb - is this the exchange you were thinking of?

______
Bernard: Prime Minister, are you asking me who knows what the Foreign Office is up to other than the Foreign Office?

Hacker: Yes Bernard!

Bernard: Ah, that's easy Prime Minister. Only the Kremlin.
______

He's got a good point peeps - let's keep it to the open source....

S41

[davejb]

Squirrel,
yes mate <g>

I think the point is that while we were all in, we were privvy to varying levels of info (I was specially cleared to read, but not produce, 'Secret Squirrell Bolleaux', for example, but if I told you that I'd have to incinerate you*)

At the time we probably thought, off and on, 'this is in the papers for goodness sake', but the fact remains that it was classified and, for many of us, what we saw is still classified... and pointing out that 'everyone knows that' is probably not going to wash as a defence. No point in banging on about how professional we all are/were only to transgress by colouring up a war story or two on a BBS.

Happy New Year,
Dave

*You can tell I'm a real cold war Squirrel warrior, I didn't say shred

[737-500]

Thanks everyone for the replies, some good info there:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

The original quote was Peter Ustinof and the Mouse that Roared.

I agree with DaveJB, to a point, which I shall come to.

The main point was confirmation. Dave should not be too young to remember that notorious Panorama programme when the station commander, no less, in No 1s, stood in the ops room and gave the mission brief for a ****** operation and told the world about Sosus.

Now we would not have expected a ride in a black Omega but to be dragged by the b*ll*cks had we said that.

John Pack, bless him.

Anyway, a short while later, I read a Soviet magazine article which had a table of different NATO sonobuoys and systems and was illustrated with the ray path plots from the SSQ41 all the way to Sosus. I don't recall if it listed the 1C but it certainly had the 24953 and CZ propagation shown.

They certainly didn't need our confirmation (at our squirrel level).

[Gainesy]

Probably the best (no PR BS) brief that I ever received on the woes of the Nimrod AEW development programme was from the Soviet Air Attache at the time. He did say that he'd heard their programme had similar problems.

[racedo]

Not sure where read it or heard it but 2 NATO Pilots discussing an intercept in late 80's

Pilot 1 "What happens if target decides they want to come home with us"
Pilot 2 "That would be a nightmare as no way could the bar order the volume of Vodka these guys would drink"
Pt 1 "What about the Plane"
Pt 2 "Given its reliability I reckon we could exchange it back for a couple of Ladas"
Pt 1 "Lada!!! FFS They are junk"
Pt 2 "How many intercepts have you done again?"

[Geezers of Nazareth]

If there were so many interceptions of Soviet aircraft during the 'cold war', where are all the photos then?

So many times we're shown pictures ('photos') and videos of the intercepted aircraft, and various people have written on here about taking photographs of them. Just recently, on another thread, there was mention of a Russian (?) web-site which includes pictures taken by 'them' of various NATO types during the interception process.

So where are all 'our' pictures?

There must be a bulging filing-cabinet, now covered in years-worth of dust, full of pictures and info relating to intercepts in the past.

Any 'ex-Q' pilots on here? When you come back from a successful 'Q' launch, is there a man waiting to collect the cameras from you? Do you ever get to see the results of your camera-work?

Going back to 'ancient' intercepts and the possibility of old photos ... is it really that secret (nowadays) that on a particular day in the 60s you took photos of various Soviet aircraft which are all now museum-pieces?

[Gainesy]

I'm sure there are thousands of black and white pictures of various aerials, panels, new stencilling, last month's Leuchars Station magazine :uhoh:, etc.


So many times we're shown pictures
So where are all 'our' pictures?


Eh?

[Yellow Sun]

Thanks everyone for the replies, some good info there

Really?

The main point was confirmation. Dave should not be too young to remember that notorious Panorama programme when the station commander, no less, in No 1s, stood in the ops room and gave the mission brief for a ****** operation and told the world about Sosus.


It was an excellent programme and was shown on Day 1 of the OCU Cse for many years afterwards. Anyway the other side had been pulling up the cables for years and subsequently monitoring our response. Their analysis of events no doubt assisted by the information passed to them by the Walker family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walker_spy_ring), although we didn't know that at the time.

Anyway, a short while later, I read a Soviet magazine article which had a table of different NATO sonobuoys and systems and was illustrated with the ray path plots from the SSQ41 all the way to Sosus. I don't recall if it listed the 1C but it certainly had the 24953 and CZ propagation shown.


....and I saw a similar one that gave a pretty clear picture of how we conducted "****** operations". Not far removed I suspect from how they conducted Bear F ops, but that's another story.

YS

[Pontius Navigator]

So where are all 'our' pictures?

...........

Any 'ex-Q' pilots on here? When you come back from a successful 'Q' launch, is there a man waiting to collect the cameras from you? Do you ever get to see the results of your camera-work?

Going back to 'ancient' intercepts and the possibility of old photos ... is it really that secret (nowadays) that on a particular day in the 60s you took photos of various Soviet aircraft which are all now museum-pieces?

The pictures will be in the archives.

Yes, there was a man there to collect the film.

Yes, you do see the results to both support your debrief narrative and to learn from any mistakes you may have made. - You try using an SLR while wearing gloves and an oxygen mask and helmet.

After one particular mission we had a stack of photos of a May. This was unusually as they rarely ventured as far as on that mission but the Bear Foxtrots were grounded and the May sent instead. I suspect the May mission was counter-SSN. Anyway I created a mozaic photo of the May - it was 6 feet long on the office wall.

If you frame an FOI request then they will do their best to meet your request.

"May I have a large print - 8 x 10 - of a Bear Foxtrot in colour please?"

"Sorry but we have scoured the archives and . . . "

In reality I got a "no" to one of my requests. I repeated the question and suggested where they might look. This time I got something back although not exactly what I wanted.

[BEagle]

I used to have a lovely little Olympus Pen-FT half-frame camera with a 150mm f4 lens which I always took flying with me in my headset bag.

One day we 'met' a Bear-F on a Q-sortie; I took some photos and they went off with our Misrep to the appropriate people. Within a few days, I received a note of thanks plus 4x35mm Kodacolor 200 cassettes..... That was shortly followed by the squadron being issued with 4 x Canon AE-1 SLRs with 100-300mm lenses, from the chap we called 'Mr Smith from London'.

Lots of happy snaps were taken with that kit - I wonder who has it now?

[Geehovah]

Can't see how this can be much of a compromise after all these years

One of mine on my own Box Brownie taken in the Sunny South

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/May.jpg

[BEagle]

Hello, Boris!

Well, I was going to show you one of mine, but no doubt some misery at the MoD would say it was 'Crown Copyright'....:mad: So you'll have to look at the inside rear cover of Air Clues July 1989. They didn't even get my name right.....:rolleyes:

I Learned About UV Filters From That though.

Those were the days!

[Geehovah]

I think mine may pre-date yours by some years BEagle