Merged: Employment Medical at Tiger, Jetstar and Virgin Blue?

[Popgun]

Can anyone shed any light on the medical screening done at the above companies as part of the recruitment process? For example, are there any heart stress tests or blood tests involved? If so, what things will they be testing for? Thanks in anticipation. PG

[mates rates]

At VB you will get a drug test.

[ab33t]

Dont smoke any sh.. before doing the test

[KopitePilot]

I should hope so! Does this mean to say you're not drug tested at other opperators? Knowing some of the potential pilots of the future I have been training with in the past 12 months the drug tests were the best way of keeping such liabilities out of the cockpits.

[TSIO540]

A mate of mine had his VB interview and found out that a few candidates failed drug tests during their interview process...

[Mr. Hat]

There isn't a drug test during interview the interview process at Airlines in oz. It comes after at the pre employment screening stage.

If you are taking illicit drugs and you want a flying career I think you might be a little confused.

[constellaton]

hey guys,

can someone shed some light on colour blindness and medicals in these airlines. would they consider pilot with colour blindness even though they have class 1 medical with no restrictions???

[Mr. Hat]

You should ask or search on medical forum.

Depends on the type of blindness. I know a few pilots that are colour blind.

[Ted Nugent]

Jetstar

Post interview and prior to actual induction start date you are required to undergo a breath alcohol test and urine drug screening!

TN

[Fueldrum]

Depends on the type of blindness. I know a few pilots that are colour blind.

If you hold a class 1 medical with no restrictions then legally the airlines can't discriminate against you on colour vision grounds. They might try but they'd be open to huge fines because they'd lose in court:E. Legally they can't discriminate against a disabled person unless it is necessary to do so for safety:=. If they give you any grief have your next class 1 renewal with Dr. Arthur Pape, who is a DAME in Geelong, VIC. (More on Dr. Pape below)

If you have a class 1 medical with no restrictions then you must have passed the Farnsworth Lantern test:ok:. This is the black box they had on the table with the red, green and white lights. If you passed then your colour blindness must be mild deutranomaly or very mild protanomaly. It has been shown that these don't affect operational safety:ok:. As mentioned above this means the airlines CANNOT discriminate against you on colour vision grounds, even if they want to.

Some pilots with more severe protan or deutran defects have a restriction attached to their class 1 medical. This restriction prevents the issue of an ATPL and restricts them to Australian airspace only. These are the pilots who failed the Farnsworth Lantern test. It is debateable whether CASA actually has the legal power to make this restriction but for as long as they do you can't get an ATPL so I'm not sure if you would want to pursue an airline career.

Keep in mind that 'colour blind' can mean many things:confused:. There are three types of colour receptors on the retina and any of these can be abnormal, to varying degrees. Those who pass the Farnsworth Lantern test don't confuse everyday colours. You can demonstrate this with the D-15 test. Colours need to be carefully engineered to confuse these people, which is why they can't pass the Ishihara number plate tests.

CASA, of course, would prefer to ground all of these pilots, but they tried that and they failed. They lost humiliatingly in the 1988 court case Pape vs CAA:=. Dr. Pape was the plaintiff and he took them on and hammered their intellectual dishonesty until the Judges had no choice but to back him and force CASA to act within its powers. If you're a pilot with abnormal colour vision you should download this case and read it:ok:.

[Mr. Hat]

Dr. Pape my hat off to you sir.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Fueldrum
I failed the Ishihara and Farnsworth, Passed some other test at the ML College of optometry and now have an unrestricted class one. For all the BS that goes on in AU politics I thank the lord every day for the CV standard.
SN

[Fueldrum]

Fueldrum
I failed the Ishihara and Farnsworth, Passed some other test at the ML College of optometry and now have an unrestricted class one. For all the BS that goes on in AU politics I thank the lord every day for the CV standard.
SN


Is that the Victorian College of Optometry (VCO) in the Barry Cole building in Carlton? I will be very interested to hear the answer to that.

Until Barry Cole retired the VCO were adamant in the published journals that nobody should fly passenger RPT unless they have normal colour vision (ie can pass the Ishihara number plate test), and that nobody who fails the Ishihara should fly at all unless they passed a lantern test, and had a green, (not red) defect.

Professor Cole was the VCO's boss for more decades than anyone can remember. He was the one who's "expertise" was shot down in flames in the courtroom by the courageous Dr Pape in 1988. If the VCO has changed their position since he retired in 2002 I will be very interested to know. His protegee Dr. Vingrys had continued to fight teeth and nails to keep us out of the cockpit and on the ground, but perhaps he has left too.

Can you describe the "other test" you did? And the optometrist who did it? Was it the Holmes-Wright lantern test? Or the Fletcher CAM lantern test? Or was it something else you can describe?

Also I'd be curious to know if you can tell me (by PM if you prefer) which type of colour vision defect you have. CASA and the VCO, as I mentioned, have in the past tried to fail all those with a red defect, but they lost that effort in the Courtroom. If you have a protan-type defect and the VCO passed you then something big has changed for the better at the VCO.

Blue skies and soft landings always:ok:. These things only get in your way if you let them:)

[Fueldrum]

I agree 100% that you should not be discriminated against for having a mild CVD even if you have passed the FALANT.

The unfortunate fact is that airline recruitment these days is a multi-stage process and they can chop you at any time without giving any reasoning whatsoever. For instance, lets say you passed all your psych tests, sim, panel interview at QF, now onto the medical and you fail on grounds of colourvision. They will not tell you that you failed for that reason they will just give you the thanks but no thanks - Protecting them from ANY litigation.

Sure if you could prove that your CVD prohibited you from passing the selection process you would have an excellent case but unfortunately you just dont have the evidence.



Actually it's slightly more complicated than that. There are ways around that problem:ok:. It's not pleasant but it can be done!!

With most companies the pre-employment medical is the last stage of the selection program. I think this is a legal requirement but even if it is not they don't want to be paying for medicals on people who will be excluded at other stages of the program.

When you are invited to your pre-employment medical, ask if you can have a chaperone. It is illegal for them to refuse this. It is expensive to bring a lawyer with you but it's better than not having the job. Also write to them in advance asking them what is their policy on impaired colour vision. If they answer in writing that they will not discriminate against you if you have an unrestricted class 1, keep a copy of their letter. If they say in writing they will not employ pilots with impaired colour vision you have your evidence:ok:

If they ask you to do a colour vision test, ask them why they are doing it. Have your lawyer write down what they say. Politely point out to them that you hold an unrestricted class 1 medical and insist that they tell you, in front of your lawyer, why they want you to do the test.

Most employers will back down at that stage. If they don't, you should refuse to do the colour vision test on the grounds that you suspect they will illegally discriminate against you if you do. Why else would they be asking you to do the test? Again, have your lawyer document this, and have him/her remind them that such discrimination is illegal and they cannot require you to do the test for no good reason. This documentation will essentially prove (in the eyes of a Court) that colour vision was the reason you were not offered a job.

Also keep in mind that the Court will know that you were invited to a pre-employment medical and if you had failed their selection program at an earlier stage you would not have received this invitation. This is also strong evidence in the mind of the Court.

Best of luck:ok:

[boltz]

I failed the Ishihara and Farnsworth too. Did the Aviation Light Signal Test and now have a Class 1 with no restrictions.

What Politically_Blonde said is so true. When I was doing my Class 1 eye examination, the doctor warned me about the possibility of having trouble gaining employment in the airlines even though it was legally possible. He said having good colour vision is more important these days due to glass cockpits.

[Fueldrum]

Politically_Blonde,



So basically, what do you do - tell the DAO to leave the section blank or let him fill it in with your 18 errors?



There are a couple of options I can suggest, assuming that you hold a clean Class 1 certificate.

Option 1 Have your lawyers write to Qantas, perhaps without mentioning your name, asking why they need this information. Have them point out that any applicant with a clean Class 1 certificate must have passed the ICAO-compliant Class 1 ophthalmic examination, so they cannot legally discriminate on the basis of an Ishihara test. The Qantas bureaucrat who put this question on the form may not have understood or appreciated this, but their lawyers will:).

Option 2 If you can pass the Farnsworth Lantern test, go to a DAO who has that test (you can find out by calling them) and have him/her put in the result for that test too. At least that way Qantas knows that you are safe to fly. Ask the DAO to spell out on the form that you have safe colour vision for flying by ICAO standards. Also ask to keep a copy of the form.

Option 3. Apply to (say) Virgin Blue, Virgin Atlantic or British Airways for a job rather that Qantas. I called each of them a few years ago and they said that, for colour vision, they are only interested in whether you hold a clean Class 1 certificate.:ok:

[Popgun]

Hey thanks for all the input re:colour blindness...and drug/alcohol testing...

I was actually after some more specific information as to what medical tests (if any) are conducted as part of the recruitment process at Jetstar, Tiger and Virgin Blue.

If you have recently been employed as a pilot by either of these 3 companies, can you remember the specifics of the medical screening that you were subject to prior to being given the job?

Your input with specific details is appreciated.

PG

[ozblackbox]

I am affected by colour vision (Protanopia) and hold an ATPL with a Class 1 medical restriction.

The restriction placed on the medical is Valid up to and icluding CPL, valid in Australian Airspace only. The wording has recently changed due to ICAO requirements and now reads: Restrictions: 13. Holder does not fully meet requirements of ICAO Convention Chapter 6 of Annex 1.

I have flown heavy jet aircraft as an FO (Boeing). During the interview process my medical was checked and no comments were made regarding the colour vision restrictions. Prior to me being offered employment I had to complete a pre employment medical by an external government body. This pre employment medical was just like going for the annual Class 1 medical. Colour vision was tested via the Ishihara method, which I obviously failed. The doctor wanted then to see my medical which he copied and attached to my file. The colour result on the file was marked with a big red rubber stamp - FAIL.

In the end I was still offered employment apart from the fact that I could not operate outside Australian airspace. I would have had to let the Ops department know if, by the off chance, we had to fly internationally on a charter.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Fueldrum
The other test was at thelocation you detail, it was a lantern very similar to the Farnsworth and I did it about 12 years ago. The result is a clean class one with no restrictions or waivers.
SN

[Fueldrum]

The other test was at thelocation you detail, it was a lantern very similar to the Farnsworth and I did it about 12 years ago. The result is a clean class one with no restrictions or waivers.


Sounds like the Holmes-Wright Type A Lantern which the VCO used at that time. That lantern has roughly the same pass rate as the FALANT but it passes more people with abnormal green receptors (deutranomaly) and fewer with abnormal red receptors (protanomaly). This is the lantern used in the UK for testing British pilots. The FALANT is American.

If you can pass the Holmes-Wright lantern your colour vision is easily good enought to fly and you shouldn't let anyone tell you otherwise!!!:ok:

[Fueldrum]

However, do you have any experience with RAAF selection and these issues?

Not much.

I know the RAAF used the FALANT in the 1990s but I don't know what procedure they use now. Rumour says that it depends a lot on whether they feel short of pilots at the time:).

The current RAAF fighter is the F/A-18, and their current maritime patrol aircraft is the Orion. These were designed for the US Navy. The US Navy uses the FALANT, so it would be difficult for the RAAF to argue in court that a pilot who can pass that test can't fly those two planes.

Their other planes were all designed for the US Air Force. At the time they were developed (pre-1990) the US Air Force used the FALANT, so again it would be hard for the RAAF to argue that a pilot who can pass the FALANT can't fly those planes.

The problem you may have is that the USAF dropped the FALANT during the downsizing after the Berlin Wall crumbled. The FALANT was developed for the US Navy and the USAF suffers from acute 'not-invented-here' syndrome:mad:. The RAAF will unfortunately use the F-35A currently under development for the USAF:mad::mad::mad:. This aircraft's cockpit is being designed on the assumption that the pilot has normal colour vision:ugh:. I suspect that the tactical display on the F-35A's Multi Function Display will include many colours for different units (friendly aircraft, friendly SAMs, Friendly AAA, unidentified aircraft, neutral aircraft, hostile aircraft, hostile SAMs, hostile AAA, friendly ships, neutral ships, unidentified ships, hostile ships.......etc etc etc.)

If this does indeed happen then a pilot without normal colour vision will be unable to fly and fight in that plane without risking firing on neutral or even friendly units. So I think the days of pilots without perfect colour vision flying western fighters may be coming to a close:{.

This problem is unlikely to happen in civil aviation. If a civil aircraft can't be flown safely by a pilot who's colour vision just meets the American standard (the FALANT), then that plane is unairworthy in the United States and must be modified accordingly, at the manufacturer's expense:). This rule doesn't apply to military aircraft.

Best of luck!:ok:

[Popgun]

Anyone know if Jetstar do a pre-employment blood test for pilots? If so, what do they screen for? (Eg: Blood Lipids, Liver Function, HIV, etc etc). Answers on a postcard or feel free to PM me. Cheers, PG

[Capt Fathom]

Popgun...

What is this fascination you have with medicals?

You're beginning to sound if you have something to hide!!

[Artificial Horizon]

You have to do a Urine drugs test at an approved centre and if Australian based also a Breathalizer test for alcohol. Thats it! No blood tests or even medical questionaires assuming you have a clean class one medical.