So who's going to Korean? (threads merged)

[Kamelchaser]

Out of the pot into the fire maybe? :O

I'm thinking seriously of throwing my hat in the ring for the Feb interviews, and have heard of and spoken to so many EK colleagues who have done/about to do the same.

So who out there is moving on this? A mate is starting there very soon, but haven't really seen any hard evidence of the swarm of EK pilots that the rumour mill mentions are about to resign for pastures closer to home. Any comments?

[freddi16]

many people are ready lo leave ek?

[fractional]

It doesn't matter who. It matters how many they need.

[fatbus]

Don't know how many but those that I do know that are there say it's very good once on the line.

[a345xxx]

When all is said is done I dare say maybe 10 or less would make the move! Remember the great saying... " better the devil you know " :)

[kingpost]

Future Korean pilots

You're actually painful about jumping ship - rather wind your neck in and just do your job, those that are leaving do it in a way that no one else finds out, they just slip out the back door, those that shoot their mouths off never end up going!.......talk .......complain.........stay!

[StealyEyedMissileMan]

By all accounts Korean is better than EK for those without children except for one small fact - that instead of being hated just by your managers, you're hated by your fellow pilots too.

[fractional]

you're hated by your fellow pilots too
Good you said that. Would you not feel the same at home in your own (national) turf if Koreans came and got jobs supposed to be for the nationals of your own country? It's a natural reaction. One just needs to be on the right. Be professional, do the job, get the money and out when you have done your targets.

Happy New Year to all in aviation on the ground and up in the air!

[Duh]

With so many Ex-pats in the Left seat AND Right seat at Korean, it's not any different than here in the Desert. From my sources, they run an Organized and Honest business. Those two reasons alone makes you think.....Should I stay or should I go now :}

[Volverine]

At least one guy had the guts to explain why he moved to KAL after 7 years in EK. Yeap just find and read Flight International early December release, see his picture and learn.
Check it out.

[jinglied]

If you are type qualified, training is less than 4 months, non type rated add 3-4 weeks. Yes the pay is reduced, approximately 70% pay during training. At the end of training, you get an extra $3000 US "reward'.

If Korean, like China Airlines, did not hire expats, they would not be flying into the US. The company has little choice. Doesn't help the "local's" I suppose.

There are a lot more than ten EK pilot's on file at KAL ( well over 100), but it is anyone's guess how many will go.

For those of you taking the leap.... Good Luck!! I've got a bit of time to kill here first.

Happy 2010 to all of ya!

Jinglie'd

[varigflier]

Instead of worrying about who's taking who's job, why don't people just worry about themselves and becoming better professionals?
Another thing to consider, if they are hiring expats it means there are not enough locals to fill the spots. If there aren't enough locals to fill the spots, what's there to complain????
Happy New Year!!!!!

VF

[Fart Master]

Fractional, a bit like all the Aussies and Kiwis who got jobs at Easyjet......were we pissed off?

[White Knight]

Possibly varigflyer because 'Star Alliance' said employ expats!!!!! Even though enough 'Capt Kim Kan Kills' in Korea - Delta wants western captains:ok::ok:

[etops777]

If Korean, like China Airlines, did not hire expats, they would not be flying into the US. The company has little choice. Doesn't help the "local's" I suppose.


Please check your resources before making a such remark. China Airlines was never MANDATED to hire any expats. The need to hire an expats was because not enough locals to filled the seats, PERIOD!

If what you've said was true, wouldn't it be a requirements to have at least 1 expat in the cockpit on every flight? But sorry to disappoint you because that was not the case and now the expats are being let go due to the current economic downturn. Go figure.

[White Sausage]

Guys, found this in Flight International, just some food for thought, especially further down where he states the differences between EK and KAL...:D

Jeff P. is a Boeing 777 captain with Korean Air. A South African, he has worked for several airlines including Emirates. He recently returned home as a "long-distance" expatriate pilot for the Korean flag carrier

What first got you interested in aviation?

Growing up on our family farm in KwaZulu Natal, South Africa, watching Piper Pawnee crop sprayers at work over our maize and potato crops triggered a fascination with flying. Secondly, a family friend, a neighbouring farmer who owned a Piper Tripacer, would take us for flights around the district which, as a young boy, awed me. Finally, a ride with a friend in a rented Cessna 172 during my final year at university was probably the most significant inflection point in my life as it convinced me that flying is what I wanted to do.

Where did you go from there? What is your background?

Having gained my private pilot's licence in my final year at the University of Natal in Pietermaritzburg, I studied full-time for my commercial licence at an aviation academy in Johannesburg. I joined Anglo American, flying Beechcraft King Airs and Cessna Citation business aircraft with a brand new licence and instrument rating and a total of 250h.
After two great years in corporate flying, during which time I achieved my airline transport certificate, I joined a domestic airline in South Africa, Flitestar, flying Airbus A320s before moving to the national carrier, South African Airways, where I flew Boeing 737s and 747s. This was followed by Air Mauritius (Airbus A340) and Emirates, where I achieved my airline command on the Boeing 777 and Airbus A330/A340. I am now flying 777s for Korean Air.

What prompted you to join Korean Air?

After seven years in the Middle East, my family and I wanted to return home to South Africa. My previous airline required that one had to be based in Dubai without the option of commuting. Our decision to join Korean Air was therefore based on the fact that as a commuting contract, we are able to live at home.

Describe a typical week

The foreign (expatriate) pilots with Korean Air fly 70-80h a month on average. A typical duty cycle on the 777 involves a combination of two or three trips across the Pacific to North America with 24h or 48h layovers; trips to South-East Asian destinations with an overnight layover and a short turnaround flight to Japan or China.

What do you enjoy most about working at Korean Air?

The fact that we are able to bid for, and are almost always granted, our requested days at home every month; the fact that our flying rosters very rarely change once published; good travel benefits and a clear, unambiguous (!!!) contract. The airline has solid standard operating procedures and a good safety culture.

What do you like the most about the job itself?

Flying the 777, a most enjoyable and satisfying way to earn a living. I enjoy the contrast of the airspace in which we operate - from the frozen void of the northern polar region to the most complex and busy airspaces in the world.

I also enjoy managing the challenges presented by the extreme weather conditions we face, which range from monsoon thunderstorms to the searing heat of a Middle East summer or the brutal cold of a North American or Russian winter.

[QCM1]

Roster not stable at EK???????
When top or second top bid you don't get what you want????

SAFETY CULTURE at Korean is the best of all scoops!!!!!:=:ugh::}
They HAVE to hire a certain % of expat to be insured...:rolleyes:

Flight Int displays here what they want you to read,its only a point of view...

Pretty sure next scoop will be the CRM tradition at Korean...:oh::oh:...LOL:}
Anion Azeoo

2010,day 1,post 1...Happy New Year despite the terrible thunderstorms,scaring North Pole routes,terribly challenging Russian metric QFE system,...etc...that we,as national heroes and modern knights,have to face on a day to day basis,with very old fashioned aircrafts...:*

[White Sausage]

No, rosters at EK are not stable (anymore). And no, I don´t get what I bid for (anymore)! Despite bidding the same way since years, the more senior I get, the less bids I get awarded, even not in my 2 top bid months.
And safety culture in EK? Hm...let me think...oh yeah, of course, our ASR´s are being taken serious, there is no fatigue here and we have a non-punitive reporting culture...
Seems you are flying for another EK than I...

[desertflyer]

Rumor has it that Korean is coming to Dubai next month to conduct walk-in interviews for two days. Anyone know the date, location, and time?? Curious minds want to know!!:ok:

[fractional]

a bit like all the Aussies and Kiwis who got jobs at Easyjet......... with European dual nationality, otherwise they wouldn't be employed in Europe. I'm sure none of the Korean Air expats (Aussies, Kiwis and others) have Korean nationality. Here is a little difference.:ok:......were we pissed off?I don't think you can speak for all.:=

Happy New Year!

[pool]

seems like Korean got their "Captain South Africa"

and

at EK the k(b)idding system apparently works, according to our own special envoys.
Well, judging by the accent of most of the poor buggars spending x-mas on the opposite side of their native country and away from loved ones, I quite frankly think otherwise: It has become as punitive as the rest of the company attitude.

Happy new year anyway, even if spent x-thousand miles away from what you bid for in your top month.

[QCM1]

No White Saus was not talking about EK safety culture,but rather about Korean safety culture and records,different...
Safe Flights to you.

[Wizofoz]

Can't see that being true.

Firstly, Korean don't directly employ ex-pats, it goes through agencies.

Secondly, I believe they can staff there entire expat requirement soley from Emirates pilots whohave already applied.

Still, if it is the case, it would be an interesting developement.

[desertflyer]

maybe they're coming to interview all the applicants??

[fatbus]

KAL still does the interview after the contract company have sent them their applivations. It might be cheaper to do them here at the CAE 777 sim and those that pass go for a med there. Just maybe but I don't think so.

[jinglied]

Mr etops777, you said:

"Please check your resources before making a such remark. China Airlines was never MANDATED to hire any expats. The need to hire an expats was because not enough locals to filled the seats, PERIOD!"

Guess I hit a nerve. However, for three years (1997-1999) "Lufthansa's" Tecknik AG" was hired to upgrade the level of safety and training for China Airlines pilots and engineers. They brought the Airline's kill ratio down from 5 times the worlds average to something far more respectable. As far as I can tell, Lufthansa's employees were expat's and they changed the company. ...period....

And although KAL does require a certain percentage of expat's on the flight deck, ( as in hired) as far as I know they do not require them on every flight.

Jinglie'd

[puff m'call]

They really don't have to come to Dubai, Dubai is going to them!!

Chatting to a mate who just got back from the interview and he said most of the guy's there were emirates. They (Korean) said they are not trying to poach emirates pilots, it's the pilot who are applying to them. The main factor
being the basings, you can live where you like. it's as easy as that.

Listen up EK!!!!!:ugh:

[extreme P]

Not going to happen.

[johnnyramjet]

With 200+ EK applications on the desk at Korean, I would think that it is cheaper to send the Korean recruitment team to Dubai, than send 200 EK guys to Korea.

[Volverine]

How do you know ?

[Fart Master]

I don't think Korean takes expat FO's

[extreme P]

How do you know ?

You sign a contract as FO or Captain. That is all. Maybe easiest for you to email any agency involved with KAL and ask about the time to upgrade for FO's?

[woldo]

Hi Guys,

According to last third century experience Asian people learn much faster than the rest. Also in aviation! They are really working hard to improve their standards and they are quite successful in doing that.
Recent incident statistics prove that the ex-pats are causing already more incidents then the locals! Keep this in mind! KAL is not a second class job anymore; KAL has improved to a world class airline with a world class standard and a very good working environment.
During the Interview process most pilots fail on the sim (between 50 to 70%) and the day after many fail the medical test. Usually only 2 to 3 pilots out of 20 pass the interview. Keep also this in mind when you start thinking of changing your job, it´s not possible to “just passing by and take this job until I get a better one”.

[Volverine]

It make sense for an airline in need of pilots to hire well trained type rated pilots with heavy world wide experience, looking for better "treatment" and respect (fair ticketing policy, contract and basic conditions consistency, intelligent rosters, etc...) highly motivated by the commuting way of life.

No cost for the company, only bonus by the time loyalty is the key for a mutual respect.

Making sense philosophy and logic is not accessible to everybody.

[Dropp the Pilot]

QED..............

[fractional]

they are not trying to poach emirates pilots, it's the pilot who are applying to themMarket trends. One either adjusts or suffers the consequences.

[Volverine]

QEDQuod Erat Demonstrandum (Latin: Which Was to Be Demonstrated)QEDQuantum ElectrodynamicsQEDQuite Easily DoneQEDQualitative European Drug ResearchQEDQuality Education Data, Inc.QEDQuestion Everything DoneQEDQuadcap Embeddable DatabaseQEDQuantum Effect DesignQEDQueen Elizabeth DriveQEDQueen's Economics Department (Queen's University Kingston, ON, Canada)QEDQuantum Explosion Dynamo (gaming)QEDQuantum Effects DevicesQEDQuantitative Economics DoctorateQEDQuest for Economic Development (UK)QEDQuick EditorQEDQuantum Economic DevelopmentQEDQuest Enabling Designs Ltd. (UK)QEDQuickly and Easily Done (Colloquial: Mathematical proofs)QEDQuality Engineering DirectorateQEDQuickly Ends DandruffQEDQueues Enforth Development, Inc.QEDQuest Engineering DevelopmentQEDQuality Education @ A Distance (AU)QEDQuicktime for EducationQEDQuechua, Ancash, Conchucos, Northern (SIL code, Peru)QEDQuantitative Enterprise DevelopmentQEDQuilting Engineering DivasQEDQuinn Elicits DismayQEDQualifying Educational DataQEDQuick and Easy DrawingsQEDQuality Evaluation for DismantlementQEDQuick Epicenter Determination(s) (USGS)

[johnnyramjet]

Volverine, I have seen nothing in print, just going by what a friend has said who flies the 777 for Korean. It could be BS, however he is in recruitment and he is ex EK.

[Wizofoz]

I stand corrected!
'
Jan 30th at the Mecure'.

[desertflyer]

Word is the folks down under have caught on to the Korean commuting deal and are now starting to "Tax" their Aussie pilots.......is the USA next?:ugh: Makes the pay worth much less.......that being said, guess being in your home country with your family EVERY MONTH is priceless!:ok: Now if I could only get some sleep!!!!! Where am I??????:{

[Wizofoz]

Commuters have been subject tax in Aus for decades, nothing there has changed. If your family and life outside work are in Aus, you are resident for tax purposes.

You do, however, only pay the difference between what you pay in the country where you work and what you would pay earning in Aus. The Korean dael is, I believe, net of Korean tax, so the amount you pay is substantially less than if you were paying full Aussie tax.

Americans have to pay tax even if they AREN'T resident, so I'm not sure what you mean there.

[Duh]

US Taxes,
American citizens MUST FILE tax forms EVERY YEAR no matter where they reside/live/shack-up or co-hort.;)
Wether you pay anything is entirely different.

[Taylor01]

Just called the Mercure hotel in Al Ain. 037838888 and they confirmed Korean Air will be there from the 27th to the 30th. Should we charter a Bus??????:ok:

[sec 3]

Do you need an invite or can you just drop in?

[CAVnotOK]

We could charter, and probably fill an EK 777.

[145qrh]

27th- 30th of Jan. Al Ain.. same dates as the Airshow.:ok:

[jinglied]

Something doesn't seem right about this Korean "roadshow" at Al Ain. They simply do not hire expat's directly. As has been posted already, expat's are always hired through an agency. Is KAL just in Al Ain in connection with the airshow itself???

..confused...

Jinglied

[EGGW]

Heard that the guy running the Al Ain days is an ex EK pilot, now in Korean recruitment.

EGGW.

[mensaboy]

Yeah I thought about that too, Jinglied. But then again, KAL gets prospective pilots from agencies but you still have to pass their assessments. So why not pre-empt things and discard the pilots they consider unsuitable instead of getting recommendations from an agency about a massive resource of pilots from one airline and THEN making their choices.

Anyhow, hope its true. It would be a good thing for EK pilots interested in KAL plus it might actually benefit pilots choosing to remain at EK. A couple hundred pilots expressing interest in Al Ain would surely encourage a response from EK management.

Sometimes, well in fact almost always, it takes a dramatic event or series of events for our managers to actually reconsider their position. Unfortunately, due to the recent worldwide aviation decline, they have been able to push things beyond comprehension. But eventually things will bite them in the ass.

[fatbus]

Then why would KAL go to Al Ain , last time I checked there were no big carriers there. Just cant see it happening, hope I'm wrong

[fractional]

Watch for "spies". Al Ain could have been chosen to stay out of arm's length from infiltrators. They'll be there anyway.

[boofhead]

KE will honour a contract when it suits them, but they do not feel bound by it. They will break it when they want to, but expect the pilots to abide by the contract all the time. The local pilots will take a pay cut if it means a foreigner will be fired. Medicals are horrendous I am glad I don't have to do them any more. Staring into that fish bowl for hours is enough to put me into bed for a week and they take enough blood each year to keep a good sized hospital running. Do not give landings to the FOs they will let you down. It is not worth risking your licence or your job just to be a good guy. If you think the FOs want to learn from you or you can make a difference, forget it. They will stab you in the back in a heartbeat and their allegience will always be to their colleagues. An English Check Captain once told me that I should forget what it says in the regulations and operations manuals, but to copy the local captains no matter how unsafe or stupid it seemed. Otherwise I could not pass my check rides. A Korean pilot has no chance of flying outside Korea, they do not speak English well enough and their personal standards are way less than ICAO. The airline has some strange ideas you cannot break. They pay lip service only to regulations. They have no knowledge of regulations other than their own. The local captains do not let the FOs fly (except if they are classmates from the Air Force) so why should you? All this does not apply to all Korean pilots, some of them are as good or better than any in the world, but as a generalization should help you to know what you are getting into. There are a couple of admin people you will get to know who are absolutely the best guys and girls you will ever work with. Not all, but a couple. The Korean people outside the industry are truly salt of the earth and the food is healthy and tasty. Cabin service is great, although don't expect them to be knowledgeable about safety.
US pilots have a tax agreement with Korea and are not subject to income tax to the US.
" UNITED STATES - REPUBLIC OF KOREA INCOME TAX CONVENTION
Convention Signed at Seoul June 4, 1976;
Ratification Advised by the Senate of the United States of America July 9, 1979;
Ratified by the President of the United States of America July 25, 1979;
Ratified by the Republic of Korea December 16, 1976;
Ratifications Exchanged at Washington September 20, 1979;
Proclaimed by the President of the United States of America October 23, 1979;
Entered into Force October 20, 1979.
GENERAL EFFECTIVE DATE UNDER ARTICLE 31: 1 JANUARY 1980
ARTICLE 19
Dependent Personal Services
(1) Wages, salaries, and similar remuneration derived by an individual who is a resident of one of the Contracting States from labor or personal services performed as an employee, including remuneration from services performed by an officer of a corporation, may be taxed by that Contracting State. Except as provided by paragraph (2) such remuneration derived from sources within the other Contracting State may also be taxed by that other Contracting State.
(2) Remuneration described in paragraph (1) derived by an individual who is a resident of one of the
Contracting States shall be exempt from tax by the other Contracting State if--
(a) He is present in that other Contracting State for a period or periods aggregating less than 183 days in the taxable year;
(b) He is an employee of a resident of the first-mentioned Contracting State or of a permanent establishment maintained in the first-mentioned Contracting State;
(c) The remuneration is not borne as such by a permanent establishment which the employer has in that other Contracting State; and
(d) Such income does not exceed 3,000 United States dollars or its equivalent in Korean won.
(3)Notwithstanding paragraph (2), remuneration derived by an individual from the performance of labor or personal services as an employee aboard ships or aircraft operated by a resident of one of the Contracting States in international traffic shall be exempt from tax by the other Contracting State if such individual is a member of the regular complement of the ship or aircraft."

[Dropp the Pilot]

Wrong.

US citizens are subject to US tax whether they earn their money in Korea or on one of Jupiter's moons. It is one of the few nations that taxes on the basis of citizenship rather than residency.

[IXNAT]

Wrong again. The agency pays the taxes.....the money you get from the agency is your pocket change.

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

Whether the agency pays the taxes or not does not exempt you from filing a return with the IRS. That is still required.

As I'm not there, it would be interesting to know how the agency pays your taxes at the applicable rate.

[Captain Oryx]

The agency pays the Korean taxes.

[40&80]

Well that all sounds nice and clear cut tax wise!
Just for your consideration....Years ago in G.F. my new F/O... a former expat. Korean Airlines contract Captain...
said he was well pleased to have left them...and he was never going back.
This F/O was an excellent pilot and a total gentleman..his main concern he said was safety.

[AlfaMike]

Did anyone attend the interview with KAL in Alain? How was it? :confused:

[Murrenfan]

Is this open day for real or just another rumor?