Australia - FLIGHT TRAINING OPTIONS [Archive]

mohammad

24th Mar 2010, 14:41

I agree with ozvandriver NOT to even look at Australian wings academy, building and aircraft looks nice which is their biggest selling point so you can see why most international students attend the school, most i would say or pretty much all the LOCALS have left because of their hidden fees.
Their level of instructors have dropped dramatically and instructors are very careless with the students and just talk a lot of rubbish behind their back which could end up in a law suit if things were said to the wrong students, they aren't there to teach they are there to take you for a joy ride and take all your hours away from you causing you to pay extra for overruns costing up to and maybe more than $8000+

COURSE FEES: $95,000
INSTRUMENT RATING: $24,000 (beech-craft duchess)
INSTRUCTOR RATING: $19,000+
(Excluding hidden costs)

The management at the start will be all nice to you until that money of your's is in their account, then your nothing to them, training standards manager is there just to sit on his computer all day and talk a whole lot of crap to you and promises everything and doesn't go through with it as well lacks in aviation skills whom he only has a PRIVATE PILOTS licence but says he has a MECIR due to the fact he doesn't know anything about IFR, so what advice can someone with a PPL give you... just as much as a GFPT student. I'd say +90% of the students have problems with this school including the Air Asia cadets but are too scared to have their say about the school and what they are doing to them. If you don't believe me make sure you go in and pull a FEW students aside and speak to them personally without the school seeing and YOU pick the students not the school picking one for you.

As aviator had quoted saying how some students have been charged extra money we aren't talking about $500 or so we are talking about $10000+ so wouldn't you complain if you had been charged that, guess you have money pouring out of your C...

pilot1991

25th Mar 2010, 16:53

Hello Everyone

I cant stress this enough!...do not go to AWA! i will lay down the facts at AWA to prove Aviator82 is wrong. I still go to AWA so i know the facts better than anyone.

The following points are based on facts...and not based on emotions (unlike what aviator82 states):

1) AWA has a contract with Air Asia (for now anyways). Who do you think is going to get priority when it comes to flight bookings, exams, etc?...definitly not the aussie thats for sure!

Example for you (and once again fact)...Air Asia recieves transporation from Gold Coast airport to Brisbane Archerfield airport, to write their CPL exams...thats interesting because all the self funded students dont recieve that same service. Lucky for me I have my own car so I was able to get there and back...however a lot of the other self funded internationals could not do so!.....that doesnt seem fair does it?

2) The school does not have enough classrooms, and aircraft to support both Air Asia cadets as well as self funded students. Every week / month the school is changing there ways on how they book flights..one minute they divded the instructors and students into blocked "colour" groups...next minute the training standards manager (god thats a mouthfull)...has to book all the flights! Its funny the school cant organize this mess yet they are still bringing in new intakes...both air asia and self funded...does this make any sense to you?

3) Accounting at that school is appauling! Infact appauling is too nice of a word to describe it. When you attend that school or if you do...request pay as you go. Do not fall for the trap I did and pay in those "installments". In the end it works out to be cheaper as pay as you go. I would get Dean..the guy who is incharge of the books (who actually isnt a qualified accountant)...fact...will come up to you and hand you a piece of paper with lets say $10,495 on it..with no detail on the statement of what you have actually done! For all i know he could have picked a number out of his a**!...The scary thing is I have found him wrong on a number of occasions. First time it was 4,000 k over...second was 6,000 k. All of my mates at that school had similar problems with the accounting....FACT aviator82...fact!

4) A few of the students got together at this school and went to Current Affair (for you internationals reading this..its a TV show that investigates companys or people that do things unethical.) Not only does Current Affair know what is going on, Australian Department of Education have had numerous cases sent to them about AWA unfair trading. 8 Students have sent documentation to them and are now being investigated!

In conclusion,
It is evident that AWA is a disaterious school! it has problem after problem..
AWA has gotten rid of the good instructors and have kept the louzy ones!
AWA can never say they finish students in 12 months from 0 time to IFR rated...no one has done that in ages!!!! my buddy who recently finsihed was there for 15 months...another for 20 months...and 16 months....and these people finsihed before air asia batch started!
Just to show you how childlish AWA is...Aviator82...is an employee at AWA....just shows you how desperate they are, and trying to protect their dying image as a flight school provider

I hope I have cleared all THE FACTS
Cheers

Ps go to air gold coast (for domestic students)...and melbourne for internationals...like where I am going next week!

ghandi

29th Mar 2010, 04:21

Having looked at a few schools and experiencing 2 of them, i can now comment and hopefully assist people in making a choice.

Redcliffe Aero club is good with some experienced instructors and good aerobatics and tail wheel training. They are also reasonably priced and offer value for money.

Chopper line is a good alternative for International students. They currently teach all the Oman police helicopter pilots, so they are used to cadets and are professional. My firends tell me IREX isnt that good.

All the comments written about Australian Wings Academy (AWA) are true -

Including some of their work practices such as charging overuns (extra flights) at todays prices when you may have flown the actual flight 8 months ago. So you either pay or leave - I left as have many others have. One of my friends who has now left, was also charged a $1000.00 admin fee and was told that was what it cost to add up his bill !@#. There is a reason Oman students do not go there anymore and Air Asia cadets are more than 3 months behind - you cannot blame every delay on weather. I am sure you will see more comments like these as people leave.

If you are reading this make sure you learn from our mistakes.

Research the school and think, that every person when they have their sales hat on is their to get you in the door and get money from you. Also remember when dealing with agents overseas that they are being paid by the flying schools to get you in. Agents will also tell you that you will be guaranteed a job, when in fact you won't have a chance.

Most Indian students will agree there is no jobs for us here for charter or as i was promised, an instructor job.

Good luck with choosing a school.

AVIATOR1982

30th Mar 2010, 00:39

Just to clear the record I am most definately not an employee of AWA, just an ex student who felt the need to stand up for the school where I received a good standard of training. Pilot1991 you are entitled to your opinion but don't start attacking me because I happen to have a different one.

And do you not just think the school would have this trash removed, rather than trying to defend themselves by posting on the net. I don't know what your issues are with AWA but they must have really annoyed you.

AVIATOR1982

30th Mar 2010, 09:02

No really I am not AWA management, I finished my course 12 months ago and it took me 17 months from zero to MECIR. A small delay due to some bad weather. IF what has been said is true I suggest students check their contracts. Mine stated that should I still be there 6 months longer than I was supposed to be I would be charged an additional $500.00 per 6 month period of enrollment and that such fees would be charged on the first day of that 6 month period. And that they reserved the right to pass on fee increases where fuel increases above $1.45 and Air Services increase more than 5%.

Course fees cover an amount of flying hours slightly higher than the minimum required for licence + rating issue, although I had to say it was very hard to get through with out going over due mainly to airspace and traffic (Busy class C airspace). In all I was charged around $2000 for over runs which consisted of mainly 6 hours pre GFPT, this period is where it was hardest to keep to the designated hours once into PPL and CPL it was no problem at all.

Flying costs money, if it takes you 90 hours:ugh:(no names) or 70 hours:ugh: (no names) to GFPT instead of 30 don't be surprised when you get a large bill for overuns.

Like I said check your contract If they are trying to break that contract then you have a case, if not my opinion is fair enough if you have been there for 2, 3 or more years as I am fully aware (through a friend who happens to be there now) some students (who in his opinion should not be allowed anywhere near an aircraft) have been. Maybe they should have had higher standards for entry on to the course as this is where I beleive the problem lies, there are people who not through a lack of trying just are not up to the course and to be fair they were told fairly early on (again from what I have been told) that the school thought they would struggle but they chose to blindly carry on anyway (racking up huge bills in the process).

I will not be commenting any further I do not wish to get involved with an argument which has nothing to do with me, I just wanted people to know that personally my experience was very good, but perhaps things have changed I really not know.

AVIATOR1982

30th Mar 2010, 11:49

@ozzybob84

I really really really have absolutely nothing to AWA management, I know you think I am but you are wrong and you are directing your 'issues' at the wrong person, obviously your experience has been alot worse than mine I don't really understand why that is but hey there you go. And just for the record I know exactly who you think I am, and you are probably right about what you think of that person, personally I just stayed well clear, kept my head down and got on with the course and i never had any issues with anybody.

If you were chucked out to make way for Air Asia then I agree that is unacceptable, this is all well after my time and I guess then I was lucky I was not around to see it. I find it hard to beleive your claims of instructor student ratios in my time there was roughly 1/4 and to be honest they spent most of their time trying to convince the foreign guys that they needed to book some flights. I took advantage of this and had GFPT out of the way in 6 weeks, PPL flights in 3 weeks and then in to ground school for CPL. I do agree with you on the dutchess, thats on its last legs but no worse than you will experience when you do find a charter job. Personally I think it actually made me a better pilot flying that thing as it set me up better than any G1000 equipped aircraft would have. I guess it did spend more time in at Air Gold Coast than it did being used but its an old aeroplane.

Your claims regarding the G1000 ''endorsement'' I actually find quite funny :}anybody with out the brains to go and look at the relevant CASA documents can easily ascertain there is no such thing and I have no sympathy for anybody silly enough to get charged for one.:ugh: I bet you could count on one hand the amount of G.A companies flying G1000 equipped aircraft.

OZvandriver

31st Mar 2010, 00:24

If you want a good laugh take a look at the Australian Wings Academy website:

"AWA has a policy of limiting each instructor with four full time students at any one time."

and

"Students are able to book or check their roster over the internet"

LOL! :ugh:

AVIATOR1982

31st Mar 2010, 01:46

@OZVANDRIVER

I don't understand what you are getting at, I was fully able to book flights and check my roster for up to two weeks ahead over the internet. The system had its moments (it liked to crash) but it wasn't too bad. I believe they are still using the same system as I am still able to log in.

Instructor student ratios were approximately 1/4 so again i'm not sure what you are actually getting at. Your not doing much to convince me to change my opinion on the place.

pilot1991

31st Mar 2010, 03:24

@ Aviator1982

I am confused aviator1982. you keep digging yourself into a bigger hole every time you post something on here...it’s interesting!

Quote...
“I will not be commenting any further I do not wish to get involved with an argument which has nothing to do with me"

Well we all know that didn't happen! I guess thats what we call a lie? This is the same sorta thing as to what AWA management do...hmmmm

Quote...
“No really I am not AWA management, I finished my course 12 months ago"...you also funny enough agreed with the dutchess that has to go into maintenance. Well when you were "supposedly" doing your training, AWA had only at that time a Seminole and not a dutchess!
Could you please be elaborate…it seems your story does not match….Another lie perhaps? ...hmmmmm

Finally my last point…

Im afraid you are in denial
“AWA, no it can’t be a bad place!" "when I did my training it was good and it had 1/4 student ratio"

Aviator1982 what I am trying to say is nothing stays perfect forever, and ultimately people and businesses change, for the good and bad. Now, you have some persona that AWA is all good and happy days....well it isnt. There are a handful of postings on here which all highlight certain things that are wrong with the school. Things that were brought to the schools attention more than one time! However, they failed to listen and now are ultimatly paying the price!

Open your eyes and ears to these comments. I believe no one would come onto to pprune and bash a school for no apparent reason. There is a reason to why so many people are telling future students / instructors about this place. As we do not want to see future people come here and experience the things we have!
I am sure you are an intelligent individual and can see and understand what is taking place...

Cheers
Pilot1991

OZvandriver

31st Mar 2010, 05:08

@Aviator1982 - I'm not actually trying to change your opinion - in fact none of my comments were directed at you, I just want to warn others.

But since you addressed a couple of points towards me I guess I'll bite:

Your were able to book flights over the internet? This is most definitely not the case now. The way in which flights are booked changed 3 times in the year I was there - and at no time were students able to book flights themselves as the website implies.

As for the 1:4 instructor to student ratio: my instructor personally told me she had 9 students following the 'departure' of other instructors. This magical ratio that we have heard so much about was certainly not enforced as per AWA 'policy'. If you PM I will happily provide you with more details.

I am not suggesting that AWA should be perfect at everything all the time, but for crying out loud do not put something on your website if you cannot even follow through with it!

auspilot101

31st Mar 2010, 08:02

G'day lads,

AVIATOR1982 – your comment is not necessary towards my question!:cool:

I’m currently attempting to find a decent flying school for my nephew. I’m a pilot myself though I’m quite out of touch when it comes to flying schools. In my day there were very few, but today there is over 100 on the east coast of Australia alone. My nephew and I visited Australian Wings Academy a couple of months ago and found their operation quite disgraceful and unprofessional. The school’s staff, were either very out of touch with the reality of the industry, or were playing car salesmen. Either way I feel terrible for those who have been roped into their fiction of aviation.

On a lighter note, does any person have any advice on MFTA in Victoria? Are their instructors sociable (down to earth)? Do they keep their word? What are these hidden fees and do you have any advice on how to avoid them? And do you finish in the time specified?

Just some advice for ex flying students: Keep your chin up. I have experience many company’s very similar to Australian Wings Academy. Unfortunately they always seem to survive. Most of the time they change there name every couple of years and move shop. But eventually they will get found out. The best advice I can give you all is stick together. You have all obviously had a difficult time but just remember that everyone who can’t make it in aviation works in a flying school. Any person who becomes an aviation manager is either too scared to fly or isn’t intelligent enough to make it into an airline. Last time I checked I wanted to fly the aircraft not let someone do it for me. I promise to all of you… “every dog has his day”. Good Luck :ok:

Sincerely
VIRGIN FO

pilot1991

1st Apr 2010, 03:07

@ Auspilot101

I just want to say thanks for your post! I found it very interesting with your opinions about AWA as well as the industry itself.

I have heard from a lot of people on pprune as well as word of month that redcliffe is a really good school, as well as chopperline. I know a lot of ex AWA students have headed up the coast there, and from the sounds of it are really enjoying themselves! They say they have good staff and actually listen to what their students (customers), have to say!

Also it is wayyyy cheaper than AWA. Tell your nephew to go take a look at both of them!

I have also been told by AWA instructors that MFT are good as well. Numerous instructors at AWA give them a decent rap.

Cheers

AVIATOR1982

1st Apr 2010, 07:23

OZVANDRIVER, Fair enough I guess. I fully realise everybody's experiences and opinions differ, I just wanted to put forward my view on my time there and I don't think I should have been shot down and accused of being some management asshole for doing that.

Pilot1991 if you sucked any harder it would start coming out of your backside.

Enough said I think !

ReverseFlight

1st Apr 2010, 12:20

Hang on a sec, MFTA is at YMNG and MFT is at YMMB - don't confuse the two. I believe MFTA almost exclusively trains Chinese cadets.

However I don't think much of the aerodrome now - landed there last week on 23 and it was in a poor state of repair, with many gaps in the tarmac to wreck your undercarriage, besides sprouting lots of weeds. Very sad to see it degenerate to that (I used to train at YMNG years ago when it was nice and quiet). Now the airstrip is overloaded with aircraft from 3 flight schools based there (not counting visiting aircraft doing IR practice) and the airport owner has the audacity to charge hefty landing fees ... you've gotta see the state of the runway to believe it.

pilot1991

1st Apr 2010, 13:57

@ Aviator1982

your so childish.....you still didn't answer the questions I asked....proving my point further by the way....thanks!

Jorocketoz

1st Apr 2010, 23:18

Aero Dynamic Flgiht Academy at Caboolture (about 47km north of Brisbane in Queensland) is a nice small flight school.
I did my CPL there and it was great fun. Went on fly aways each year to places like air shows and camping to a close island. I cant compare it to other schools because I didnt go else where but the guy who runs it is great value and its a fun environment to do it. Worth investigating.
Best of luck, study hard and have fun.

mohammad

5th Apr 2010, 14:46

Aviator1982 As you have said that students go over time on their GFPT overruns some can't even help it when they just get absolutely :mad: instructors that just fly with you for the hours wont drop names, OR when a good instructor gets fired for standing up to something that is right and then we would have to change to another instructor therefore having to do another check flight!!!
And higher standards to enter the course... Pfft that would never happen seeing as they are in for the money and promising you a job at JETCRAFT (Flying citation jets ect).. that is giving JETCRAFT a bad name, wonder how they would react if they heard that, it seems like they have tried to say that to auspilot101's nephew, but people aren't stupid.

Aviator1982 if you work for AWA i suggust you start looking for some work elsewhere as i see a violent storm ahead. For once maybe you will TRY and get some work done! But damage has already been done :D

We'll keep you updated in the next few days

PRS_AWA

7th Apr 2010, 07:36

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Phil Sweeney, CEO of Australian Wings Academy (AWA). I have been following with great interest the threads which have been posted onto PPrune regarding this Academy, and have been both surprised and disappointed at some of the alleged comments being made.
It is clearly evident that through a general lack of understanding or appreciation for the complexities and workings of our operation, certain understandable yet inaccurate assumptions have been reached, and whilst I fully appreciate that current and past students have the right, and may even have justifiable reason to air their views on this forum, I would like to extend as always, an invitation to those students to address their concerns, suggestions and/or ideas for improvement via my personal email address which follows, and I welcome the opportunity to discuss with them, the issues that have caused such vitriol.

Anyone who knows me will acknowledge my ‘open door’ policy at AWA. It remains open, and continues to provide an opportunity for students to air their grievances, or offer constructive criticism to me personally, or to other members of our management team. It is therefore understandably disappointing to discover that a small number of clearly aggrieved students have chosen to overlook such an opportunity, but instead feel inclined to broadcast their own anonymous, misguided opinions over the internet.

It would appear that the principle protest is over the handling of our finance policy. For clarity, yes, we do operate a very strict finance policy. This is entirely as a result of our being too lenient and trusting with students in times gone by. Regrettably, and as usual, the few have spoilt it for the many. There have been many instances in our history where AWA has agreed to provide significant extended credit, or physically loaned considerable sums of money to students to assist them in the completion of their studies, and despite repeated promises of repayment, nothing as a consequence has or will be forthcoming. Our commercial and common sense decision to remain solvent to cater for current and future students of AWA, completely dictates the present finance policy in operation.

I would like to think that my email inbox will soon include mail from the aggrieved parties in question so that we can enter into, and address any matters that have arisen within this forum. The absence of any such mail will only lead me to assume that the comments being made have no foundation or substance.
I look forward to hearing from you.
[email protected]
Regards,
Phil Sweeney
CEO, AWA.

OzzyBob84

7th Apr 2010, 14:58

I find it very interesting PRS_AWA that you have taken note of this particular thread. All students have aired their grievances with you or management and nothing was done. Students still inform management to this day of how unhappy they are with their course progression... still nothing. PRS_AWA, not one person in the last 2 years has finished their course on time. You and your management staff have criticized students for their lack of ability/motivation. So technically your school, is saying that 100% of its student are to blame for their delay?? Not likely! :=

AWA has offered no reimbursement to any students due to AWA's inefficiency (AND WE ALL KNOW, IT WASN'T BECAUSE OF UNSEASONAL WEATHER AS THIS IS YOUR ONLY EXCUSE). The school hasn't even offered an apology to any of its students, just excuse after excuse. For some unknown reason when students do complain to PRS_AWA or management, they are offered only excuses and not answers (nor resolution). And when a student does complain, management pile 4 staff into the office with you by yourself. HHHHmmmmmm..... any person know's that that's an intimidation tactic. It must make you all feel big when your talking down to an 19 year old.

Students who pay the amount of money that we've paid deserve service; all we found and received were lies. Also, Not one of my invoices was correct in my entire time I was with AWA. And what I found interesting, every invoice I received was an overcharge in your favor. :=INTERESTING! :confused:

As paying customers, we don't need to care about the workings or appreciate the complexity of your operation. We are paying for a service!!! If you wish to run a legitimate business, then do it honestly without ripping students.

“Hi ……..
I am writing to inform you that I am unable to keep honouring your course fee that is now more than 12 months old when the course that you are undertaking is a 1 year course, and we have been severely hit by cost increases during this time.

We have calculated the difference between the current course fee and the fee you are enrolled on only for the stages you are yet to complete. The differences are as follows:

CPL – (Five Digit Sum)
MECIR – (Four Digit Sum)

We understand this is a significant sum to be faced with, and we understand it may impose financial difficulty on you. However the matter needs to be addressed and we would ask you to contact either myself or …… to discuss further.
Regards
……”
:D:rolleyes:
This is one of a thousand reasons why we don't wish others to fall into the same trap that PRS_AWA offered. Many students received this email from PRS_AWA who were over their 12 month course period. Once again, NO STUDENT HAS FINISHED THEIR COURSE WITHIN THE REQUIRED AMOUNT IN 2 YEARS. I've written this to inform others of my experience at AWA. The stress and the financial loss that I've suffered from AWA's incompetence has been unforgivable.

Sincerely,
OzzyBob

pilot1991

8th Apr 2010, 04:00

G’day Phil

I found your post very amusing!
Really? I mean really you’re that shocked what has been said here?
Just for the record I am not going to send you an email. What I will say will be said in this forum, as I do not want other people making the same mistake I and all the other ex AWA students did!

Many people including myself all went to your so called “open door” policy. Majority of the time I went, you were not on site, and the people you have employed are absolutely useless!

I was told by the instructors at AWA that all complaints had to go to the “Training Standards Manager”. So I and many other students did! We laid down all comments to him and he said he would change the things we had discussed. Well Phil just for your information this never happened! Could you please explain to me what Training Standards Manager means? And what the job implies?

The list of things I am about to state is factual. You know it and I know it. These are all true

Air Asia students get provided with transportation to and from Archerfield to write their exams! (lucky for me I’m from oz and therefore I had a car to do so, I drove a lot of people who were internationals as they did not have their own transportation)

It’s interesting how AA students get priority of the school. Am I right?
Also to add on the favoritism, AA students were given the right to be taught ground school in the big classroom, away from the noisy hanger. Before the AA students came there, there were Aussies in that room and once AA came to the school, you kicked all of us out (halfway through a class by the way) and moved us to the portable outside in the hanger. (Where you can hear every plane start up, taxi, and takeoff)! Hardly a study area don’t you think?

I had to laugh at your “strict finance policy” Simply putting invoices on post it notes does not qualify for “strict”. I have received many invoices from Dean and yourself that have one large sum number in the upper right hand corner. On that entire white page there is NO breakdown of these numbers. I had to ask you three times to do this.

Now Phil, when you go out for dinner and the bill comes at the end. Does the restaurant write one sum on a page? Or does the sum get broken down (ex. Beer, salad, main, etc)? Could you please answer this question for me!

And your questioning why were angry at the school? And why were writing this on PPRuNe?

Phil, I want you to feel that you are in our shoes. Imagine yourself paying 100,000 to be at a so called “good” school, and then to find you being kicked out of a classroom because a bunch of Airline sponsored cadets are going in there! Would you not feel a bit angry towards the school? I mean come on…

Recently; I went to dinner at the Versace. You and I both know it is an expensive place to eat and dine. Prior to going you expect the service, food, and the experience as a whole to be A+. Well during dinner my main meal was undercooked, and our waiter was horrible (not pleasant, didn’t care, and got our orders mixed up). Now if you were paying 100+ dollar dinner and ultimatly getting the same service standard at hungry jacks, would you not feel the need to complain and voice your opinion? Please answer this question as I am intrigued.

Well I did voice my opinion. I spoke to the manger at the restaurant and he could not agree more with me. He knew that if he did not fix this issue he could lose a returning customer. So he offered to pay for the main meals, and offer a free dessert as well. Now looking back on the experience there…yes the meal was under par…however the staff there quickly resolved the issue (reimbursing me of the meal, and took 100% responsibility)

there is a moral to this long story, and I think you know what I am getting at.
We (AWA students) have put a hell of a lot of time and money into our training, and we have received nothing in return. Not even an apology from any of the management staff.

I am not sending you an email as I don’t need too, I have repeated myself to you lot on more than one occasion.

You are all too focused on AA and not on the self funded students who have had to work day and night to live this dream of one day becoming an Airline Captain.

OZvandriver

8th Apr 2010, 13:08

Hi Phil,

Thanks for acknowledging this thread - I think it is fair enough that you post your response on here. However, whilst you do make some fair points you did not address any of the issues directly. Instead you simply dismiss our concerns as "inaccurate" and "misguided".

Exactly which of the points put forward are "inaccurate"? I'm not saying that disgruntled students are always correct but I can empathise with most of the concerns others have raised (e.g. being moved into the shipping-container 'classroom' in the hangar, invoices with no break-down etc etc).

Finally to suggest that our comments have 'no foundation' because we don't email them to you personally just defies logic. Would you really dismiss so many concerns simply because they do not appear in your personal email? Denial is a dangerous thing.

Look forward to reading your reply Phil.

Cheers, Oz.

ghandi

8th Apr 2010, 22:49

Hi have read the response from Mr Phil from Australian Wings Academy and i was most dissapointed to think he doesn't know what goes on when he does know exactly what is going on.

I certainly agree with Pilot1991 and Ozyvan driver. Most students are not saying anything to you Mr Phil because nothing is done. Your training manager has been sitting on our feedback for nearly a year now and nothing was done.

Instead of doing a new survey at the AWA school you should listen to past comments instead of wasting time and giving the training manager something to do.

When feedback was told to you, there were excuses made or you blamed the students and you showed us arrogant and contempt. Your management spoke to us as if we were simple and were not educated. I will remind you that most students from Asia have one or two degrees with them. Mr Phil you also spoke to your instructors rudely swearing and yelling at them,treating them like worthless dogs, i do not like that open door policy. That is why all your good instructors have gone away. How many students and instrucotrs have left AWA since 2008/2009 alot! People have many choices now and if you are over priced and give bad service your business will suffer as yours is now.

I am also wondering why you are trying to open a new school at Gunedah and calling it Australia Asia Flight Training when it shows Australian wings academy bannerss on the website. I will also NOT recommend students go to Australia Asia Flight Training (AAFT).:= It will still be run by AWA management. Also this forum is for sharing information and assisting people - you are not liking this forum because the truth is becoming clear to more people now. And the AWA strict finance policy is about making money and that is all.

We have saying where i come from - what is going around comes around

Oman and other international students should go to Chopper line at coloundra or RMIT Melbourne and make sure you have good english .

Ghandi

flyingfalcone

10th Apr 2010, 21:48

Hi to all. I'm also a X student of AWA and have had the same problems as the rest, being over charged, course running well over time, told one thing and delivered onther. Anything that comes out of AWA's mouth unfortunatly cant be trusted, they will tell you anything to get you in the door, and once they have you they treat you like S*** .

They will over promise and underdeliver.

I wish i never went there.

mohammad

11th Apr 2010, 16:14

Phil
We have tried to throughout the time at AUSTRALIAN WINGS ACADEMY and mentioned to your training standards manager on a number of occasions, our suggestions on what/how you could improve. The people whom actually had given their opinions when the “training standards manager” first started his position aired their opinions but no action was taken. And those who gave a negative opinion were given a hell of a time at the school some of them had to change school. I recall at one stage of my training when everyone was given a green form to give their suggestions and nothing out of that suggestion form was ever taken into place, and we were just treated like spastics. Phil I’d also mention that if there is such thing as a training standards manager at AUSTRALIA WINGS ACADEMY he should know every students need not just make things up saying he is multi engine command instrument rating/instructor rated and then lying to students saying that he will teach them. I say he wouldn't have a clue on how to start the dutchess just as much as how well you don't know how to run your school. So I think it would be better off that we give our opinions on this forum so I and those who have fallen in the traps, would like to help others not to make the same mistakes as a lot of us have done.

As AUSPILOT101 mention those “everyone who can’t make it in aviation works in a flying school. Any person who becomes an aviation manager is either too scared to fly or isn’t intelligent enough to make it into an airline”
Can see the standards of teaching drop dramatically, as cost cutting and keeping the inexperienced instructors = Bad teaching = unproperly trained pilots. And lying to get the job later will cause problems down the track, when they lack experience in aviation, and can/will cause business to fold.

There are many other students including the Air Asia cadets who would like to express their feelings and criticize to you personally but have learnt from others not to do so because of the consequences of their actions if done so. There are more students past and present that will join this forum and will not be threatened and intimidated by your staff.

I recall on one occasion where you and 3 other staff interrogated a student at one time, you don’t see that at other schools and is a very bad business practice, and another occasion where a instructor had taken a student outside and YELLED on top of her voice abuse which is not appropriate for a customer paying top dollar, that instructor was praised for her action.

AUSTRALIAN WINGS ACADEMY does not operate on a strict finance policy I can gather ATLEAST 3 bills that you have sent students and had just given a digit for on a piece of sticky note or a ripped up piece of paper
E.g. Commercial over run$10000 CAN SHOW PROOF OF THAT
Landing fees $2500 CAN SHOW PROOF OF THAT
Air services charges $3000 CAN SHOW PROOF OF THAT
Without a break down on what there is needed to pay and when we voice our actions your response to us would be pay now no talking or threaten to cancel our visa/exam.
And how about those students who you have to refund money to? There are student there that are still waiting for THEIR… THEIR money to be returned not yours.

I wish to hear your concern on this forum so everyone can see what is being said instead of being so denial and telling us to send you an email of concerns, when we have already given you enough opinion! You can dismiss our concerns and be denial but you know it will always catch up to you.

Mohammad.

wingsnot

12th Apr 2010, 10:29

I have read the following with great interest.

Based on my experience at AWA many of the posted comments are true.
I now wish I had found a better school for my training.
Mr. P... be man enough to face the facts & deal with YOUR problems.
The buck stops with you!

The school does over charge & break promises. Mr. P your business is just about worthless so take the medicine & fix the problems. You may yet be able to salvage something from the ashes. It a such a shame to end this way as many of the staff are great people & deserve better.

Wingsnot!

MTOW89

13th Apr 2010, 00:57

Hey mohammad, I was also a victim of poor treatment at AWA, ‘bumped’ for international students like you, but its good to see this coming out now and maybe something will happen about how AWA management thinks more about its bank balance than paying customers, but as long as they keep their so called accounts manager in the place then expect no change. :ugh:I agree with your comments but I'm confused.... , there is a standards manager and a training manager at AWA but they are not the same person. The standards manager is a highly qualified instructor and the training manager has a PPL. I found him to be an ok sort of guy who helped me and others out. As far as I know he has never said he had any other flying quals except for years of experience in aviation. Maybe he told you different or you are mixing them up. He’s one of the better ones, but that’s saying something! Anyway it realy doesn’t matter who is ‘management’ at AWA as the only one who makes decisions is Phil and the others have to toe the line to save their jobs so the buck rests with him.
Im outta there now but I hear the place is falling apart, instructors leaving or being pushed, no new students, same old aircraft, same old attitude towards customers. Can someone tell me what the general manager actually does. Anyone found out yet?

wingsnot

13th Apr 2010, 02:36

Sleeps with the boss?

OMR

13th Apr 2010, 12:03

I to am an ex awa student........only just found this site whilst talking to other pilots about drama's with flight training schools and a coulple of them already new about what I was talking about due to this site, so I thought I'd come on to see it for myself.

I must admit, pretty much every point the people have said here I have experienced myself......

We all know someone whom whats to get into flying and I will be keeping them and thier money well away from AWA.

If I had a dollar for each instructor that has been hired and fired from that place in the last three or four years I would nearly have my course fees back........It sounds like it is really going down hill there now, only wish I was around to see it......second thoughts......nope.....very glad I'm not...

mohammad

13th Apr 2010, 13:28

"Training standards manager" the one that sits in his office all day, giving the worst advice to students and only holds a PPL but says he has a multi IFR.

We wont see a change anytime soon the accounts manager will always be there since he is best friends with the general manager. I'm not too sure what the general managers position is but when i use to go there she would just sit on the computer all day, Phil wouldn't have a clue what is going on there all he just want to see is more money in that account and not worrying about customer service, most probably why they just send ridiculous bills like landing fees of $2000, extra $10000 for IFR we aren't stupid enough to pay it so everyone just leaves.

It seems like Phil is in denial of his school falling apart when all of us have given enough advice, but now more and more people have decided its enough and aired their opinion here on this forum.

OzzyBob84

14th Apr 2010, 05:22

G'day,

Just to clear things up with these job titles at AWA. The 'Training Standards Manager" was a nice fella. As I am aware, he was hired by AWA in this position and to assist in the development of the Air Asia Training program. Once the Air Asia Training Program was implemented, he was given the flick. Poor guy had come from the U.K with his family and was given a days notice to leave. Highly qualified, AWA's loss!!:ugh:

The 'Training Manager' is the fella who sits in the instructor office all day, for name sake we shall call him 'Teflon'. He's the one who collects the complaints and does nothing with them. It's interesting, when he's away, things run a bit more smoother than usual.

With respect to those who have confused these titles, I can understand fully. The school has managers for everything. "Too many chiefs and not enough indians". They all try to prove their existence! With the turn over at that place you wouldn't know who is who. One day you're having lunch with your new instructor and the next..... their know where to be seen.

Cheers
OzzyBob84

MTOW89

14th Apr 2010, 08:29

Gee OzzyBob84 are you angry! You musta had a worse trot than myself. I still think no matter who the Chiefs are, the Big Gun and his offsider call the shots. Maybe the complaints from Teflon weren’t heard. Anyways some of us have got flying to do so im outta here. Much more interested in the facts than the bitching. No good for the career. Suggest you move on too...

139BOY

14th Apr 2010, 11:33

I think we have all heard enough about AWA & there problems. To answer the original question about schools in Australia.

AWA aren't the only school at the Gold coast. I converted an oversea's PPL to an Australian licence at Air GoldCoast. They dont have the flashy hanger & brand new planes that AWA do but i got what i paid for. After every flight I was invoiced & it was itemised with cost of A/C , cost of instructor, landing fee,s & airways charges. No hidden extra's or charges & a small well run & friendly admin department.
The instructors were young & might have been waiting for that elusive twin or jet job to pop up but they new there stuff & were helpful & friendly.

They use C172s which are oldish but they have a maintanance facility in the hanger next door to the school so the A/C are kept in good condition.

South East Queenslands weather is very predictable , hot, humid & afternoon storms during summer & perfect clear flying weather during winter so if you plan it right you dont loose many days due weather.
I only flew about 8 hrs at Air Gold Coast but was happy with the service & they haven't had a bashing on pprune like AWA.

139BOY.

pilot-in-demand

16th Apr 2010, 02:38

Gud'Day Boys,

I agree and disagree with what has been said above about AWA, but going back to the original question, I believe with flying schools, there will always be problems anywhere we go.

In the same AWA, there are students who achieved their goals in 11 months and there are students who are on their 3rd year without a CPL licence! So, in any academy, it all depends on how focused and determined you can get with your training. The harder you push, the faster you get through!

Training Manager does not have all the flying qualifications but why does he need them anyway? He is ground based and runs the show from his office, with many years of experience in what he does, you don't know what he does because he does not work for you, but if you fellas recall what was happening from 2007 till Apr 2009 before the training manager arrived, hellow!!! Go Check the archives and see for yourself!

I'm not defending AWA and I'm not recommending it, this is what I think of AWA and its departments, rest be on you!

Ground School- Is very very poor and CPL+IREX+ATPL will cost you 10,000 and abit more, you will be kept in the hangar with all the noise and the GS Manager will kick you out of class whenever he feels like it as if he pays for it, so do not apply for their GS/Theory!
Flying/Instructors-you will get high standards and airline operation-like training from great instructors who will break rules inorder to assist you getting faster through and minimize your dual hours! But make sure you do not let anyone else know of your relation with your instructor otherwise he/she will be out of AWA before you know it!
Fleet-Amazing Cessna 172's, well maintained by Air Gold Coast and DA40's by the internal engineering department (but due to the poor Beechcraft they have, do your Instrument rating somewhere else unless if they change their Twin and RG which might never happen)
Accounts-We will give Dean his own department, this man(if he is one) knows what he is doing but thinks that us(customers) are fools! His invoices never undershoot! They will always be more than what you have to pay, so, make sure you go through with him and be hard on him, he seems to be softer when you show him a real man's face! You'll pay Less!
Admin/Management-here I'm talking about the top management team, they do not know and are not bothered to ask on what is going on, all they want to see if money flowing and Phil will respond to you within minutes if you write to him about applying, do not joing until you are satisfied otherwise you will be just like everyone else complaining when its already too late!

1. Your ASIC, Student Pilot Licence and Medicals are with you.
2. You are aware of what you are shceduled to do throughout the course.
3. Do not just fly duals without doing your maths, these over runs are all dual flights!! You need your solo hours so don't worry about them.
Have your 150 total flying hours, with minimum 20 cross country hours and minimum 70 hours PIC and do your CPL test!

If Dean invoices you on the over runs right after GFPT, tell him to keep his invoice and you will adjust your flying hours later on your course because they are all HOURS!!!

Talk to people who have been there and learn from them!

I'm not here to argue, defend or offend anyone, I'm here to help the new comers and guide them through a better path! I'm still an AWA student and I'm taking the challenge, avoiding what others did wrong and guess what! They Can't Catch Me!!!

Your Pilot In Demand!!! ;)

OZvandriver

16th Apr 2010, 03:45

@PilotinDemand,

Great post...I think some of us ex-students got a bit carried away but I think what you write is fair. Every flying school will have its good and bad points - just so happens that AWA has a few more bad ones!

pilot1991

17th Apr 2010, 10:56

i agree with ozvandriver...but im still waiting on phils response as i am waiting for my answers.

pilot1991

20th Apr 2010, 13:43

obviously phil, you have no response for us and the other viewers on this forum. Proving that our posts are not...false....

thank you

pilot1991

OZvandriver

21st Apr 2010, 06:02

pilot1991 - I wouldn't hold your breath for a response...I doubt he even reads this thread anymore, afterall denying problems is much easier than dealing with them.

mohammad

21st Apr 2010, 12:34

You can run but you cant hide... You know its going to catch up to you, be in denial but its not going to be easy at the end
Phil how about you email me your response if you don't want to post on this forum?

Mohammad

LeadSled

21st Apr 2010, 14:05

Aerocadet,
Have a look at Professional Pilot Training at Coffs Harbour, NSW.

The have an excellent record with their loyal airline customer base, and take a proportion of self financed pilots.

They are not the cheapest, on the face of it, but they will not run you to the end of a contract and fail, either. Indeed, all students do a 30h check, and anybody who is not going to make it through is given the choice at that stage.

After the 30h check, the survivors have a better than 95% pass rate for the usual CPL/multi/MECIR, and for airline cadets, the pass rate back home for type ratings is 100%.

I would point out is that my only connection to the PPT is dealing with the output, and I have been most impressed with the high and uniform standard.

Tootle pip!!

ST.Pilot

22nd Apr 2010, 00:43

Anyone have a recommendation for a school at Bankstown in Sydney? Alot of the bigger schools have closed up recently and I'm not familiar with the smaller ones.

Camden would also be a good option, but more of a last resort. A drive out to CN is a good 2 hours for me.

auto_junkie

19th May 2010, 11:23

Hi all,

I'm looking into a CPL-A conversion near in SE QLD. Im currently CPL-H living on the gold coast and looking into Air Gold Coast.

Just looking for feedback good/bad, seems like a good operation.

Cheers.......

OZvandriver

21st May 2010, 04:03

auto_junkie,

If youre on the Gold Coast the choice is easy - Air Gold Coast. Pop into Australian Wings Academy if you want but try not to laugh when they quote you prices.

OZvandriver

30th May 2010, 08:22

hey guys, was just chatting to a mate today and Australian Wings Academy have lost a bunch of admin staff and instructors recently. The place was run so badly I don't know how the boss expects to take all this on himself now.

Also apparantly there is only one theory instructor left who is occupied with the airline cadets. So basically if you're a self-sponsored student then you have no choice but to self-study. $90k well-spent. :ugh:

Ollie88

31st May 2010, 07:38

I am not a student of AWA nor I will ever be by judging from the things I have read about them here. My oppinion is that you can get s**t without paying for it. I bet the effect of these conversations are not very good for their reputation....

OK to the real issue now, Im looking for good integrated ATPL courses in Australia. I read an article in a Finnish flying magazine about a Finnish dude who got his JAA ATPL in Western Australian Aviation College and he had only good things to say about them and it was one of the best moves of his life to improve his career. Im very interested of this school so any info would be appretiated :) Ive noticed some ppl here have been trough this course themselves so you can PM me if possible please!

diggafile

1st Jun 2010, 12:33

Hi Ollie

PM me for some info

OZvandriver

13th Aug 2010, 05:07

Anyone know about the recent dramas at Australian Wings Academy? The CFI left recently (after less than a year) and there have been a number of instructors coming and going.

Would hate to be a student there...

Pommie Paul

15th Apr 2011, 05:48

Hi Everyone,

So glad I have just read all this info. Does anyone know if these problems still exist as the thread is quite old. Also has anyone had much experience with Air Gold Coast, becuase they are small I get the impression that they will be exceptional but perhaps expensive, I dont mind forking out if the quality and future potential is there though.

I have moved hereto the Gold Coast from the UK and now looking to pursue my flight training. I have zero hours and will be having to put myself through the training while working (idea is to work the mines and train when I am home!)

I am extremely dedicated to fulfilling this dream at all costs, and since I am paying for it myself want to ensure I am on the best course with the best people to get me through my training. ALL HINTS AND TIPS WILL BE GRATEFULLY APPRECIATED!!

May also look into the Coffs Harbour School and that over in Perth.

Thanks guys,

Mac85

15th Apr 2011, 09:48

Hi Pommie Paul,

I’m currently completing my CPL on the Gold Coast having completed my PPL interstate. I don’t wish to add fuel to the fire on this thread, so should you have any particular questions about GC flight schools please feel free to PM me.

I, too, am a self-funded student so understand how important (and difficult!) the decision is to find the right flight school. I think the most important thing for you to do is obtain detailed quotes from each school you are considering. Get them to identify the various components of the fee they will charge you for each flight. One flight may include the following fees:

Aircraft hire

Instructor’s fee (this is the fee you will pay to have the instructor sitting next to you. Identify if you will pay for time in the air or from engine start to stop. This may make quite a difference. Good news is you won’t have to pay this on solo flights when you are more experienced)

Landing Fees (different at all airports and higher at GC airport than others)

Fuel surcharge fees

Briefing fee (will the school charge you for pre and post flight briefings with your instructor)

Also ask if there are ‘enrolment’, ‘administration’ or even ‘printing and stationary fees’. Specifically requesting details of all of the charges to expect will avoid any hidden surprises and allow you to make an informed decision. I’ve learnt this the hard way.

Always bear in mind that the approximate ‘total’ course fee figure a school gives you is only that, an approximation. Some people take longer to get the hang of it and therefore it costs more.

Also put some thought into whether you wish to do the ground school theory as self-study from home or in a classroom setting. Obviously self study will save you money if you have the time to invest in it. If you plan on doing theory courses, get some feedback from students to see if they found it helpful.

I hope this is of some help to you and all the very best with your flying!

Nirak

1st May 2011, 04:55

WAAC in Perth is now owened by Racwa (flying club next door)

You will find more recent info on the "Dunnunda, Godzone & Pacific: DG&P General Aviation & Questions section

MikeTangoEcho

1st Jul 2011, 08:18

Instructor’s fee (this is the fee you will pay to have the instructor sitting next to you.

Hrrmm I think they do a little more than this.. Sit a brand new student next to me and see how far they get.

Mac85

11th Jul 2011, 09:49

Mike Tango Echo,
Apologies if my passing reference to flight instructors seemed flippant and/or inaccurate. I was simply inferring that the nature of the fee is for the time the instructor is seated next to the student whilst giving instruction. In no way did I intend to detract from the very important role flight instructors play in the aviation community. I believe this goes without saying, after all, none of us would be in the air if it weren’t for an instructor teaching us how to fly in the first place.
I must say how disappointed I am with members of this on-line forum who aim to make an ‘issue’ out of simple semantics. :ugh: Reading these forums it's almost as though people visit just to nit-pick.

Donegal Dan

13th Jul 2011, 12:14

Hi.
I have done my PPL in Redcliffe aero club. not redclife flight training like mentioned above same airfield but different FTO. You should look them up. It is redcliffe (go figure) in Queensland. Great weather, great place.
The aero club is very relaxed and the aircraft are great. They have new models 172sp some with glass cockpit and more. They also got a new 2010 model tecnan p2008. Very cheap to rent. And the instructors are brilliant. I can’t say enough about them. No uniforms, no worries and they don’t rob you blind. You feel the instructors are there to help you. For example on my solo I forgot my watch and one of my instructors turned around and took his off his wrist to give to me.

They have a good range of well maintained aircraft and good courses. I can defiantly recommend them to anyone. You can mail me for more info if ya like.