RAF St Athan

[SRENNAPS]

I thought some of you might be interested in reading the following article.

BBC News - St Athan defence base reveals its fighting nature (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8423296.stm)

[Joe Bolt]

It will be a shame if all aircraft maintenance at St. Athan were to come to an end.

I spent a very hard working but happy couple of years there as a contractor, doing majors and upgrade modifications (Jag 97, NVG, Adour 106) on the Jaguar during the DARA years. The overall skill and dedication of the JMF workforce was really something quite remarkable. Many of these guys were ex-RAF with years of Jaguar squadron experience. Others were local lads who had been 'converted' to aircraft from other engineering disciplines. A lot of these were damn good as well.

A few months after I finished there, I was again contracting for DARA. This time at Fleetlands near Gosport on Lynx helicopters. It couldn't have been more different! A bit of a shambles really, in comparison to St. Athan!

[NutLoose]

With a £12bn deal for a state-of-the-art military academy


WHY????????????????????? Why move out of Cosford and back to Wales, they moved the School from Saints to Halton and then to Cosford, now it's going to cost the earth to move it again........... why waste 12bn that could be used where it is needed............:mad:

[SRENNAPS]

NutLoose

To be totally honest I have to agree with you. It is barking mad to move training from a suburb facility such as Cosford and 12 billion is a lot of money. However, this decision has not been based on common sense even sound business judgement. It is a political decision as a sweetener after the Red Dragon farce. (My personal opinion!!)

I must admit that because of sentimental reasons I would like to see St Athan remain RAF, but the truth is I believe that the new Academy is just all talk by a bunch of ministers and business groups (paid for with public money) but will never actually happen. Time will tell I suppose.

[BEagle]

A wretched place for engineering test flying with its short runway and dismal weather factor, StAthan.

Although Scrapheap Challenge did a grand job with major servicing of the old FunBus, the Red Dragon hangar was a farce of epic proportions and the only reason for some spurious 'Defence Academy' down there would be to keep the Viet Taff politicos happy.....:rolleyes:

It makes no sense to relocate from Cosford - which is probably why it's bound to happen...:ugh:

[asdaasbo]

12bn is a lot of money but it wouldn't just be the RAF relocating there. All military air engineering training will be conducted at St Athan along with Marine Engineering allowing the closure and sale of HMS Sultan. At least the standard of Naval training will improve with the integration with the crabs.

[Toddington Ted]

The Defence Technical College (to give it is current name) has been a twinkle in various eyes for years. I remember being briefed about it back in 2001 and being told that we were all moving to Cosford by 2005 (which would have probably suited me as its closer to the Severn Valley Railway!). Clearly things have changed a little since then, with the selection of the Metrix Consortium as the preferred bidder back in 2007 which meant that the answer to the exam question then became St Athan. However, it's not just a matter of moving Cosford to Saints; other units, including Aborfield, parts of HMS Sultan and our own Eng Off Trg at Cranwell will also move but not, I was told, before 2015. This has been dragging on for what seems like an interminable period of time and, whilst it seemed a good idea at the turn of the century, seems less so now especially given the whopping price tag. The contract itself isn't signed yet and, as a soon to be civvy, I'm even more interested in when or if I will be working for the MOD or a contractor. Still listening out but it's all gone quiet apart from the issuing of some shiny plans and impressions of what this dreamworld will look like and where DCAE, DCCIS and DCEME will all live together. The firm decision is unlikely before the next general election but there is much pressure for it to go ahead.

[Roadster280]

Is there not another aspect to St Athan that has more to do with strips of Harry Black Maskers than scrapping aircraft or training?

I would expect that requirement to increase (as it has, into St Athan) over the next few years.

Although if the training circus is moved lock stock and barrel into there, the newer occupants may well want to relocate.

[NutLoose]

Ahh so they are moving the Navy in, but as St Athans is "land locked" by a few miles, meaning you are either going to have to build something on the coast? and buy the land to do it, or run em a canal up to west camp to allow them to mess about in their boats... :p you might as well build em a big boating lake at Cosford, a Billion or so should see something big enough for them to splash about in, the rest of the money could be redirected......failing that move to Cottesmore, and bung the Navy on Rutland water...... :}

[asdaasbo]

HMS Sultan and Collingwood are hardly by the waters side. Nor are either of the air stations. It is going to be a training base not a dockyard. Don't know what the Cardiff locals will make out of all the matelots and crabs on nights out....

[Krystal n chips]

" Don't know what the Cardiff locals will make out of all the matelots and crabs on nights out...."

The way things are going, and with reviews / cuts various on the way, it would seem the local population of Cardiff and Barry are unlikely to have their overall IQ raised several points by the influx suggested above. :E

One period of incarceration was enough ( Bucc majors). If I'd wanted to work in a factory, we actually had to clock on!!, I wouldn't have joined the RAF......thankfully, I escaped after a few months..... back to the Air Force.

[alfred_the_great]

duty dit I've heard in SULTAN is that the move is being 'looked at'. It's a lot of money for a PFI, and the contractor is getting cold feet due to the current financial climate. Plus, not a lot of the civvy staff at SULTAN are going to relocate, and they can't find replacements.

[Toddington Ted]

Alfred; yes, it's also my understanding that there are "issues" with HMS Sultan moving and, I'd heard that 2020 was the date being mooted and not all of Sultan would move either, some units remaining at Gosport. There are a number of factors regarding the financial situation, not least that the value of the land that was thought to be released by the sale and relocation to St Athan is now less, plus the fact that borrowing huge sums of money for a PFI isn't exactly easy for organisations such as the Metrix Consortium at present. As I said, I was expecting some sort of statement before Christmas but I presume that all will now be revealed sometime after the next election. I do have a vested interest but, at the end of the day, would a move to South Wales be enticing?

[charliegolf]

the local population of Cardiff and Barry are unlikely to have their overall IQ raised several points by the influx suggested above.

You'd need aircrew for that.:ok:

CG

[Lightning5]

Happy days spent at Pickeston on Canberra majors 1969 to 1973. Real aircraft maintenance. I did learn a lot from those days. Sad if it goes. My twins were Christened on the base. Again happy memories.

[BEagle]

.....not a lot of the civvy staff at SULTAN are going to relocate, and they can't find replacements.

That's always the problem with over-contractorisation and reliance on increasingly large numbers of civilian staff - they can't just be given a posting notice to somewhere hundreds of miles away and be expected to get on with it.

Tough luck, MoD - didn't you realise that?

Hardly much of a surprise that a civilian workforce cosily ensconced on the sunny South Coast doesn't feel overly keen at the prospect of moving to the Land of No Vowels, is it?

[james solomon]

The road that ran along the sea front was scary driving along seeing a jet landing over your head

[tucumseh]

That's always the problem with over-contractorisation and reliance on increasingly large numbers of civilian staff - they can't just be given a posting notice to somewhere hundreds of miles away and be expected to get on with it.

Above a certain grade, they are expected to do just that. Witness the relocation to AbbeyWood, which cost most a fortune and inflicted debts that took years to clear. The only difference between the Civil Service and the Services is, if you don't turn up at your new post you are deemed to have resigned, not gone AWOL.

The problem is that a sudden raft of resignations or early retirements doesn't bother the beancounters at all, who don't care a jot about maintaining Operational Capability.

[Toddington Ted]

Tucumseh, agreed and, what makes things even more tricky for this enormous PFI is that, on Service Commencement Date (currently mooted to be early 2011), all CS staff working in the 3 defence colleges will "TUPE across" from the CS to the Metrix consortium. At least, that is the intention. Clearly some may or will not wish to do so for geographic, professional or personal reasons and that is the real issue for most CS staff. For military personnel, well we are just moved to where we are needed but it is intended that far fewer Service personnel will be employed in this new centre of excellence in any case. In the meantime, the continued uncertainty gnaws away at those of us who are directly involved; for the rest of the military its far less of an issue I suppose but it's yet another "challenge" to divert us from our key task of delivering trained people to the Front Line (I don't mean the NHS when I use that term either!).

[NutLoose]

Quote:
the local population of Cardiff and Barry are unlikely to have their overall IQ raised several points by the influx suggested above.


You'd need aircrew for that.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

CG


I did not realise the fact that Matelots and Crabs would have such an impact in raising Aircrew IQ :E

[nipva]

Beagle,

A wretched place for engineering test flying with its short runway and dismal weather factor

I am not sure that I would agree. 6000ft of slightly upsloping runway with both approach end and overrun cables never presented a problem to Tornados, F4s, Jaguars, Harriers or Hawks - don't know about VC10s. The weather factor was also pretty good and on a par with Chivenor. The biggest limitation used to be the lack of approach aids - no TACAN, PAR or ILS. However the specially licensed circling approach to RW26 from an ILS to RW32 at Cardiff got round that.
As I recall, the biggest problem with the airfield was that the southern taxiway was used by both aircraft and vehicles driven by people without airfield driving licences because it was the only on-site road connecting east and west camps. There were several close calls, a civilian petrol tanker driving down the main runway in front of a landing Tornado being one and a collision between a JP under tow and an ignorant motorist being another.

[BEagle]

The 6000 ft RW and the narrow taxiways were probably OK for fast jets, but were distinctly tight for a VC10.

Yes, the lack of approach aids was indeed a problem. The last part of the Air Test schedule used to involve lowering the ELRAT, after which (in those days) you had to land within 10 minutes. So, if the cloud was low, we used to fly a cloudbreak over the Bristol Channel, find the visual lead-in marker and overfly the aerodrome at about 500 ft to check that it would be OK before turning downwind, dropping the ELRAT, doing the test items, then turning back in for a visual landing. Fortunately things improved in later years, although the lack of a valid excuse for a low level flyby was a pity.....:E

During my brief time on the mighty F4, our OC Eng Wg announced during one Met Brief that one of the jets going to St Athan for a major had a flap problem, so might have to be sent flapless...... Cue much mumbling from the assembled throng, who viewed a flapless landing on a 6000 ft RW with a distinct lack of enthusiasm. "I'll go in the back seat, if you like", offered the well-meaning Wg Cdr. "You can go in the bloody front seat", came a reply from the floor, causing the Stn Cdr to titter. "Ahh, OC Eng, I think we'll sort the flaps out before it goes to St. Athan", he concluded!

[7HD]

"You'd need aircrew for that."

That won't work. Being a centre of primarily engineering excellence there are so few aircrew in the locale already that even if they all left, it wouldn't make a significant difference.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Two pages, and only one person has called it St Athans.
This must be a record?