T5 Miserable Failure To Perform

[strake]

OK, we've had some bad weather but that was twenty-four hours ago....

My wife and daughter arrive at midnight to Heathrow T5 after two hour delay. Pilot announces there are now delays getting busses to the aircraft.
1hr 45mins later, they are told the busses are on the way so the doors are opened. My wife and daughter are at the bottom of the steps when the busses drive off as they are full. Now standing outside in temps of -1c, they have to wait for 20 mins for busses to return.
Inside the terminal, an announcement is made that bags cannot be delivered so please fill in a form to have them delivered later. 200+ people are trying to get the form. It is now 02:30 and they are still not out of the airport.
Just hopeless.

[Final 3 Greens]

Strake

I think everyone knows my opinion of T5, so I won't bang the drum again.

However, let me pass my sympathy for your family, as it must have been a horrible experience.

[TightSlot]

We do know F3G, but in this case I think a both-barrels 12-Gauge Rant would be entirely appropriate!

Be my guest...


:)

[Fargoo]

Could've been worse

Snow: Travel chaos as up to 8 ins of snow falls across the south - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/eurostar/6841893/Snow-Travel-chaos-as-up-to-8-ins-of-snow-falls-across-the-south.html)

It's the English way to fall apart with the slightest whiff of any cold weather. At least Gatwick and Luton were ok.......:mad:

[strake]

Thank you F3G and Tightslot.

In the cold, tired light of day, I realise I should probably have just added my post to another T5 thread but last night was so infuriating, particularly as I was unable to do anything to help my wife and daughter.
In the end, my wife said there were hundreds of people from 6 or 7 flights trying to get the yellow claim forms from two girls at a desk. At that point she took an executive decision and just abandoned her bags - as it would appear did most people. By this time, I had been trying to get accomodation for them at either the Sofitel or Hilton but all were full. After a further 30 mins queue for a parking bus, they managed to get in their car. They arrived back home at 06:30 this morning some seven hours after they should have done.
One would have hoped that BAA had an emergency plan that would swing in to action when these things happen - which they do from time to time.
Either they don't have one or if they do, it doesn't work!

[Capetonian]

Add to this the Eurostar story
Snow: Travel chaos as up to 8 ins of snow falls across the south - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/eurostar/6841893/Snow-Travel-chaos-as-up-to-8-ins-of-snow-falls-across-the-south.html)
..... caused by the wrong type of air in the tunnel ... and it paints a sad picture of the ability of the transportation systems to cope with anything a little out of the ordinary.

[PilotsOfTheCaribbean]

For Gods sake, what is the matter with you people!

The citizens of this great country have once again fought valiantly through our annual fall of 12 snowflakes, and you expect things to carry on as normal!

It is all very well expecting competency and some shadow of efficiency when you come from Germany or Scandinavia or the USA, where you take these things in your stride, and as part of your genetic heritage. However here in the united desert kingdom, thanks to global climatic upheaval, we now have to endure such freak weather events as fog, heavy rain, and now even overnight snow flurries! Indeed, so traumatic has our climate been over the last millennia, that our traditional hose pipe ban celebrations, when we have 3 consecutive dry days, have had to be suspended for the last 2 years!

Now you expect our airports to be able to cope, our busses and trains to run, and your suitcases to travel 500 metres inside of a week? Stop and spare a thought for the people of these great islands, who struggle on through such adversity with barely a crooked smile. Be thankful that you can share in this seasonal spirit, and experience the joyfulness of the celebrations of the strike ballot. Be thankful that we always have enough complaint forms for you to fill in, and we do supply chained biros.

I dont know....... Foreigners! :rolleyes:

[greggx101]

T5

Reason No.139 not to ever use BA again.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Please dont knock the UK, it was admitted on TV by some face or other....we dont get much snow, so it is not cost effective to prepare for it when it arrives.

Global warming my a$$.

glf

[Malone]

Capetonian,
I love it!!!!
:D

[strake]

Latest, which if true, causes insult to injury...

The Press Association: Passengers leave luggage on plane (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jpJDOWg017-0JEG6CmM5WZ4sxsjw)

Passengers left their luggage on a plane at Heathrow last night after being told by workers that they wouldn't be unloaded because staff were not being paid overtime.

Travellers waited for hours at the airport's Terminal 5 for bags to be unloaded from British Airways' planes, many of which had landed hours late because of the poor weather conditions.

One passenger on a flight from Prague said she saw a group of baggage handlers leave the terminal as hundreds of people were waiting in the baggage reclaim area for their suitcases.

"One told me they were leaving at the end of their shift because their employer would not pay them overtime.

"They advised us to leave without our bags because they wouldn't be unloaded. It was a complete shambles. One woman needed to get to her bag because she had milk inside it for her young child," the passenger told the Press Association.

A BA spokesman said: "Due to the disruption caused by heavy snowfalls yesterday we do have a number of delayed transfer bags from cancelled flights in our care.

"We have taken on extra baggage teams and are working as hard as we can to get these bags on to their onward flights out of Terminal 5 as quickly as possible.

"This process has already started and we anticipate that the majority of bags will be put on to flights later today."

The airline said it was operating a normal flying schedule today from both Heathrow and Gatwick but there may be some delays.

"This is due to aircraft, cabin and flight crew out of position caused by delays from yesterday's heavy snowfalls which is causing an impact on the schedule."

[perkin]

I arrived at MAN from LHR last night (thankfully courtesy of the wonderful BMI) to be confronted in the baggage reclaim hall by 40 or 50 people who had also arrived from LHR with the evil BA who's bags hadn't even made it on to the aircraft...

Warping the T5 rant into a general LHR rant, we had a 45 min delay for de-icing (not enough de-icing units available - is a heavy frost really that uncommon in the UK???!!) and then to add insult to injury a further 15 min delay waiting for a tug - LHR is supposedly the busiest passenger airport in Europe and they do not have enough tugs/de-icers to handle the traffic levels during the evening peak??? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

But hey, unlike the poor souls on the BA flight, my bag made it from LHR to MAN :E

[Skipness One Echo]

Why couldn't they get the bags on the aircraft? Was it a weather thing or did everyone clock off and bugger off home at the stroke of shift ending?

Now THAT sounds typically British. To paraphrase Mr Adams, those unions, "they haven't gone away you know.....!"

[apaddyinuk]

Those 40 or 50 people were probably transits, im not bliddy well surprised their bags didnt make it if things are as bad as they appear to be at LHR!

I still shocks me that airports in the UK in general are so ill equipped to deal with snow. Its not the airlines faults, airlines are used to flying into snowy conditions, its the airports and the general infrastructure providors fault. Why can scandic countries, americans, canadians, russian etc etc etc airports manage it no problem yet our lot just allow the complete collapse of organisation???

[perkin]

Skippy & Paddy,

I read an article earlier (bbc website I think) that said some aircraft didnt get unloaded last night (bags left on planes) as the handlers refused to work overtime...think it was T5, but I could be wrong...

However, if there were baggage handlers, I can't see why on earth the captain wouldn't delay the flight to ensure all the bags made it on as I think it was probably the last Manchester bound run from LHR, so would seem sensible just to delay for the bags, but maybe everyone who works for BA is so cheesed off with it they just wanna get home on time and couldnt care less about a few bags?!

Another T5 story from me involved getting my usual back row seat (my fave place at end of week so I get on first and just sit quietly while all the other people enter a scrum for luggage space etc etc), Fri evening, LHR-MAN and positioned myself well at the gate for the call to boarding....only to be foiled by the groundstaff boarding the front half first, which made so much sense when the airbridge was attached, you guessed it, at the front door of the aircraft...took somewhat longer than normal to get everyone on board and seated. No offence Paddy, but I'm so very glad BMI have survived for the time being!! :ok:

[Capetonian]

Just in case anyone thought I was joking about the 'wrong type of air' .... I wasn't .......

Four trains – all headed to London from Paris – suffered electrical breakdowns as they left the cold air in northern France and entered the warmer air inside the tunnel.

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

This problem was reported on by Simon Calder in an article as far back as December 2001. It seems that condensation forms in Le Works and brings the Eurostars to a grinding halt. A fleet of five clunky diesels of German manufacture are on hand to drag the failures out, but it all takes time, of course.

[Capetonian]

A fleet of five clunky diesels of German manufacture are on hand to drag the failures out,

Not ze first time ze Chermans vill haff been velcomed in France zen!

[Hartington]

A good few years ago I flew back into LHR from Montreal (on a BA 747-100 to give some idea of how long ago). We landed on 9L and taxied off the end of the runway and parked in front of where the fire training fuselage can now be seen. Three more aircraft landed behind us and parked behind us and there we sat. The taxiway we parked on was virgin snow.

Something like 90 minutes later a set of airstairs arrived but they were frozen so they went away and came back about 20 minutes later with one bus. I was lucky in that being in Club I got on that bus. I have no idea how long it took to get everyone off. I don't remember any particular problems with baggage.

In the meantime the crew did their best but after a trans-Atlantic sector there wasn't too much left to hand out.

Point is this is all nothing new. I could get annoyed and complain that this happens every time the weather goes off on one and if it happened then why haven't they sorted it by now. But I take the view that if "they" were fully prepared for such events it would add to the cost of my ticket and I'm prepared to accept some inconvenience so that doesn't happen.

And, it happens where they are (supposedly) prepared. Check out Chicago next time snow hits. They'll be OK with some snow but if it really snows they simply stop flying.

[apaddyinuk]

I read an article earlier (bbc website I think) that said some aircraft didnt get unloaded last night (bags left on planes) as the handlers refused to work overtime...think it was T5, but I could be wrong...

However, if there were baggage handlers, I can't see why on earth the captain wouldn't delay the flight to ensure all the bags made it on as I think it was probably the last Manchester bound run from LHR, so would seem sensible just to delay for the bags, but maybe everyone who works for BA is so cheesed off with it they just wanna get home on time and couldnt care less about a few bags?!

But there are a number of factors to consider here. Did the company actually OFFER overtime??? Overtime is getting harder to come by in BA these days and generally when it does its snapped up, I cant see any reason why any loader this time of the year wouldnt want a bit of extra cash unless their own union has some sort of issue with BA and therefore instructed its staff not to take it.
As for the captain delaying the flight...he doesnt know where those bags are! The dispatcher probably doesnt know where those bags are! What if they are in transit from T3 or some other terminal? They are basically lost in the system until received by BA.

None of these are excuses however dont think that BD are any different when the excrement hits the fan. I commute with BD several times a week between LHR and DUB and have done so for 4 years now, I have had some HORRENDOUS experiences with them as well as with EI. And Im telling you, even with BA gone from T1 I can assure you I would much rather be commuting out of T5 when things get bad then I ever would the droughty, run down T1!

Another T5 story from me involved getting my usual back row seat (my fave place at end of week so I get on first and just sit quietly while all the other people enter a scrum for luggage space etc etc), Fri evening, LHR-MAN and positioned myself well at the gate for the call to boarding....only to be foiled by the groundstaff boarding the front half first, which made so much sense when the airbridge was attached, you guessed it, at the front door of the aircraft...took somewhat longer than normal to get everyone on board and seated. No offence Paddy, but I'm so very glad BMI have survived for the time being!!

I was not aware that boarding by seat row was really something BA groundstaff were good at especially considering they rarely make announcements at the gate in T5 so I dont think it was deliberate that the first half of the plane seemed to board first. Perhaps you should have just tried to get on first!

I may be employed by the mighty one but Im still critical of their processes. but I also have a common sense approach!

I think T5 is a bloody brilliant facility. Much better then ANYTHING in the UK and a hell of a lot more user friendly then most other terminals in Europe. Yes it has issues with security (and the fact that those bliddy trains between the piers done seem synchronised) but it gets far too much unneccassary criticism. Its only a terminal, it cant control the weather but it can certainly keep you warm when it does hit....remember those tents that popped up regularly around the other terminals not so long ago??????

[PAXboy]

apaddyinukBut there are a number of factors to consider here. Did the company actually OFFER overtime??? Overtime is getting harder to come by in BA these days and generally when it does its snapped up, I cant see any reason why any loader this time of the year wouldn't want a bit of extra cash unless their own union has some sort of issue with BA and therefore instructed its staff not to take it.
As is usually the case, we don't know. One report that I read (in here) stated that staff told pax that their employer would NOT pay overtime, so they had no choice but to go home.

[bealine]

Please let me start by stating that the following is written from my own, personal, perspective and my employer BA, or the owners of the building, HAL (part of Ferrovial plc), may not agree with my views. Additionally, the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) and theDfT (Department for Transport) may not agree with me either.

Right Ho! First and foremost, let me apologise to customers for whom Heathrow and Terminal 5 haven't lived up to expectations. It is always very sad to see people whose sad, dejected faces tell the story of a long, disrupted journey, and whilst I understand the problems of our BA cabin crew, I am glad none of the disruption was caused by them! This inability to cope with disruption was highlighted well before the building was opened, as the entire structure is designed to keep passengers moving swiftly forward from check-in, through security, enjoy the wonderful world of retail and disappear through the boarding gate on to the waiting aluminium transportation tube!.

Nothing was ever mentioned or built in to the design for what happens when passengers cannot go anywhere or have to return from whence they came! (Whenever this subject was broached, we were told "There won't be problems in T5!" Yeah - right - and the aircraft will be delivered to us on little pink fluffy clouds..............)

Enough of the "We Told You So's!" Willie Walsh and BA management are probably sick to death of all the "told you it would never work" comments from staff and passengers alike! As a member of British Airways' staff, who is loyal to his employer, I will humbly accept that it's a lovely building, and a place to work that other aviation employees can only dream about, and we have to just accept T5's shortcomings and do the best we can! Most of the time, T5 works extremely well - we only struggle when passenger loads are high or when we have disruption.

For sure, T5 has shortcomings but I cannot stand idly by without trying to separate fact from fiction.

Now, let's deal with the weather chaos this week and inject Bealine's viewpoint into it:

1. Heathrow Airport has been at full capacity for aircraft movements for a number of years It's no secret and that is why we desperately, desperately need that third runway that no-one seems to want us to have! Until we get that third runway, every time we have snow, ice, fog, drizzle or just plain low visibility the Air Traffic Control tower has to call for "reduced flow-rates". (ie reduce the number of take-offs and landings per hour).

2. Reduced Flow-Rate = Delays and Cancellations.

3. When there is seriously reduced flow-rate, British Airways, as Heathrow's l;argest operator, is requested by the CAA to cancel a number olf flights to protect the operation of other carriers whose aircraft are "away from base". (This is a universal "gentleman's" agreement worldwide that the home carrier will cancel flights to allow Johnny Foreigner to get his aeroplanes home). If we didn't do that, poor old Delta, United, Qatar, Emirates, Etihad etc would be stuffed!

I am too small a cog in the mighty BA to know what happens financially in these circumstances, but there is possibly some "contra" raised by the CAA by way of compensating an airline for its trouble.

4. British Airways has certain flights and routes that are first for the chop! UK Domestics (simply because there are alternative means of transport to get you home), Paris, Brussels (there's Eurostar) come first, followed by a raft of short-haul flights (like Amsterdam, Frankfurt etc) where we have more than one service per day and it's normally relatively easy to disperse the luckless passengers on later flights.

5. The plan for Terminal 5 always was that passengers would be self-reliant. Check in would be done on line or using Check In Kiosks (as per IATA and the ACI's ultimate aim that, one day, there will be no airline staff at all at any airports - check-in will done on line or on Common User Self Service machines (CUSS) and baggage accepted by security personnel). Indeed, there were no plans for any Ticket or Reservations staff in the original T5 drawings, deliberately.

BA planned, at times of disruption, for passengers from cancelled flights to leave the airport and make their reservation changes through ba.com or by telephoning the contact.ba call centre. Unfortunately for the airline industry, and fortunate for staff, is that the vast majority of our customers don't want to leave the premises unless and until they know for what alternative flight they have a firm reservation.

As an Airline Customer Service guy (and a good one I hope, who doesn't want to see our jobs disappear), it is as plain as a pikestaff that the majority of customers are resisting automation as much as they possibly can! For the most part, people seem to like being able to select seats on-line and print a boarding pass - the business traveller with no bags to check in loves this - but unless intercepted, even passengers who have used the Check In kiosks a hundred times before, will avoid them and walk straight up to a desk if they think they can get away with it! (.....they always do "get away with it" if they come to me - LOL! The only thing is, the good seats tend to have already gone the day before!)

6. Because of the plans for passengers to be self-reliant, staff numbers are down. That is why such horrendous queues form!

7. As I mentionmed earlier, the problems come when passenger numbers are high. At the present time, with the Christmas holiday, every flight you could possibly mention is booked nearly full, so rebooking becomes an ever increasing nightmare for Reservations staff.

8. Because there is a bullying culture by management at the moment, (as with this recession there is in many companies. I know my wife finds the same thing with another airline at LHR), managers are frightened to put their name to authorising anything. I'm afraid some of the management would have veins sticking out of their neck and would be jumping up and down with rage if overtime was authorised! Similarly, if a manager is stupid enough to wait until the end of shift before offering overtime, then very few will take it up when they know there's a fine brown brew waiting for them at Nellie's Bar or their wives have a pile of chips and a fine big steak with their names on it! With earthy working men, such as you get baggage handling, you have to use a bit of psychology and make it worth their while!

9. By and large, our Terminal Management have done a good job of writing "Standard Operational Procedures". (You know the I-phone advert "There's an App for that!" or Subway's "We have a SUB for that!" - well our managers say "There's a SOP for that!")

The only trouble comes when one "SOP" intereferes with another plan as I will highlight in a later post!

[bealine]

I promised I would give you an example of where one "Standard Operating Procedure" interferes with another - here goes!

The "SOP" in question was brilliantly planned. Yesterday morning, the announcement was made at about 0730 that the Newcastle and Glasgow flights (both due to depart around 10.30) would be cancelled. Any passengers would be referred to check-in "Zone G" from where they would be escorted down to arrivals where the Disruption Desks opposite Krispy Kreme would be opened up to handle them.

Staff were sent to the Distruption Desks and briefed as to their duties. The passengers, we were told, were to be given a hand-written boarding card, £10.00 refreshment voucher per person to buy food/drink for the long road journey from Marks & Spencers, and then referred to the queue by the Staff Search area to be escorted into the Baggage Hall to reclaim their hold baggage. Once done, they would be brought back outside where the first coach would be waiting at about 10.00.

So far, so good.............

I went up in the lift to Zone G! In the words of Batman, "Holy Cr4p!" - there were snaky queues and Tensa Barriers everywhere while another "SOP" for handline re-bookings was under way.

So, the only way to find my passengers was to proceed up and down the queue bellowing in a very undignified and unprofessionmal way "Anyone for Newcastle or Glasgow, please!"

I sifted the first few and took them downstairs, then the next problem reared its head. The DfT and BAA are, understandably, rather touchy about allowing passengers to return to the Baggage Reclaim Hall. In this case, with about 250 passengers (and the usual tossers who say they "forgot" to collect their baggage), the BAA refused point blank to allow our NCL/GLA passengers to be escorted back in. (I suspect they have a SOP for that!)

Eventually, the BAA relented and allowed pax to be taken in to reclaim baggage 6 at a time. With the security scanning etc, that took a tremendous amount of time and it was soon plain that with the first two coaches sitting outside revving their engines at 10.00, that the first passengers wouldn't be ready until about 10.30.

The airport won't let coaches sit outside on the stands for long, so the two coaches were told to go to the Coach Holding Area out on the Northern Perimeter Road until they were called back in. (That's the Traffic Warden's "SOP" I shouldn't wonder!)

So, eventually, we got the first coaches ready at about 11.00, swe then have to satisfy DfT requirements by writing a list of all the passengers on the coach, with the coach registration number and fill an envelope with the tear-oo bits of the handwritten passengers' boarding passes. When I was asked what was taking the time and I answered "Administration and Paperwork", I though I was going to be killed!

The last coach departed at 12.25 - nearly two hours after our original plan! I have to say, the "SOP" was extremely well designed and would have worked extremely well, if it had been the only SOP being followed! As it was, we did a brilliant job and worked tirelessly throughout - but I am sorry to say none of the passengers involved with us would have thought so!

[PAXboy]

As so often before, bealine, we must give you a big THANK YOU for telling the truth.

The very idea that you could build a terminal now for 'minimum' headcount and almost complete 'self-operation' is one of the funniest things I've heard in years. Here is another example of this in the UK. Post Offices:
The govt want to save money by closing smaller ones
They provide some of the services online
They drop other services
They close them down
They are astounded when people protestThese closures will be possible in 20 years time, when the present generation that regularly use computers and are used to lower staffing levels are then in retirement. Until then - you have to keep the small offices open.

Same with airlines. Start the phased move over to online services but keep some staff. The mgmt don't like this as it means that IT investment is done now but cannot be offset by headcount reductions. In other words, they actually have to invest hard cash into the business. :eek:

Secondly, the idea that pax would just troop away from the terminal without knowing about their onward connection is simply laughable. Anyone who has spent any time with pax (or in customer service of any business) knows that ain't gonna happen. To imagine that you can change the established behaviour of all your pax (particularly the infrequent flyers) without any warning is just remarkable.

I had thought before that BA and BAA made a complete hash of T5, this confirms it. My only use of the place has been minimal and with light traffic flows, yet it was not enjoyable and the waste of money and space is obvious. All the woes of T5 prove, again, that T4 was a failure. The blatant selling opportunities are tedious but, fortunately, very easy to ignore.

[bealine]

I'm glad I could lighten up your weekend and give you a good laugh, PAXboy! I'm glad I haven't lost the touch!

How interesting, though, that you used the British Post Office as your analogy because, for all the rhetoric and supposition over the cabin crew dispute, not one newspaper drew on the parallels between BA and Royal Mail!

The fact is, the manager responsible for failing to turn up to union/management talks (both cabin crew and ground staff) was appointed by Willie Walsh last spring from ................ Royal Mail!

Say no more!

[PIK3141]

Bealine

Your post 23 just underscores why anybody from the regions should never, ever, consider booking with BA and always place their business with Ryanair, Easyjet, KLM, Emirates, Continental and anyone but BA.

[bealine]

Your post 23 just underscores why anybody from the regions should never, ever, consider booking with BA and always place their business with Ryanair, Easyjet, KLM, Emirates, Continental and anyone but BA.

Not really. What we do see is a lot of people booking with Emirates or Continental etc, but then expectng BA to look after them on their LHR-NCL leg or LHR-GLA leg.

RYR or EZY would cancel flights just the same - the differnce is they would just tell you "Tough!" and leave it to you to find your own way home.

At least BA has a very reliable system in place when things go wrong. No other airline has as extensively written "SOP's" as BA!

[strake]

I guess we'll never know if it was clock-watching baggage handers or reluctant management that caused the problem but our baggage has just arrived by courier so well done BA for reuniting us with it within 48hours.
We're away somewhere else now until 5 January so Merry Christmas one and all......especially the usual suspects...:ok:

[bealine]

I guess we'll never know if it was clock-watching baggage handers or reluctant management that caused the problem but our baggage has just arrived by courier so well done BA for reuniting us with it within 48hours.
We're away somewhere else now until 5 January so Merry Christmas one and all......especially the usual suspects...:ok:Glad your ordeal's over! Happy Christmas! :ok:

http://emcons.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/father-christmas-and-reindeers-caught-in-airplane.gif

[rmac]

Its not only a British disease. I arrived late in Copenhagen from Munich last Thursday by SAS and as a result of no contingencies for additional late duty staff had to add a one hour delay of baggage on top of the two hour delay in arrival.

Airlines are not a service industry anymore :-(

[PIK3141]

Bealine,

No, No, my whole point is you book on Emirates to Dubai and Continental to Newark and avoid LHR. They fly from the regions ! Granted the one thing wrong with Ryanair is they dump passengers, but the score for me in recent years is Ryanair around 100 trips (no problems), BA nil. Ryanair have a base in Prestwick.....BA dumped it....and GLA....and MAN...and....

I cannot imagine arriving at LHR expecting an onward flight to GLA to find myself being put on a coach. Even Ryanair don't do that ! If BA LHR centric expect to fill their clapped out 747's and newer 777's etc, then maybe they need to treat their regional Customers with more respect than a coach to GLA let alone what you described.

Having said all that, you and the BA staff who want to serve Customers are to be highly commended. I remember years ago going business class to Australia for work and choosing BA because they were the British carrier !!!!! Haven't made that choice in more recent times.....

[Capetonian]

Thank you bealine for this informative and well-written post. I also respect you for your loyalty towards your employer, although sadly I feel it is misplaced.

I had to laugh though when I read this: British Airways has certain flights and routes that are first for the chop! ....... Paris, Brussels (there's Eurostar) come first,

Having been caught up in this weekend's debacle with Eurostar, I ended up booking a flight back to the UK from Belgium, although not with BA.

[Final 3 Greens]

RYR or EZY would cancel flights just the same - the differnce is they would just tell you "Tough!" and leave it to you to find your own way home.

Sorry Bealine, I can't let you get away with making an incorrect statement about easyJet.

I have been on a canceled flight (severe wx), was rebooked for the next morning, given HOTAC and meals.

This was not a 'one off', it is the company's policy and can be found in their conditions.

I was in Lyon the week before last and BA canceled on me (severe wx), offered the next morning flight, but refused hotac,

Some comparison, eh?

Reason #140 not to fly with BA.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I've only used T5 twice [Long-haul J-Class, one in and one out, in Sep/Oct] - I have to say I was moderately under-whelmed by the experience. Still, at least I left and returned with my bags, so I suppose I should be happy.

Somehow I felt the experience was substantially less than the hype. "Fast Track" security took 30 minutes; walk for endless miles to reach anywhere; and poor signage.

Only consolation was someone from BA kicking people out of the Priority Boarding line and sending them back to start again. The first time I've ever seen anyone with the balls to do that!

April will be interesting - if it even happens.

[jonathan3141]

I appear to be the only person who has had generally excellent experiences at T5 and who still chooses to fly BA above many other airlines!

[Two-Tone-Blue]

There are a lot of positives about BA and T5 - just perhaps not as wonderful as the BA hype would imply.

I've done the miles, but have always been just a little bit disappointed with the end product.

[bealine]

There are a lot of positives about BA and T5 - just perhaps not as wonderful as the BA hype would imply.

I've done the miles, but have always been just a little bit disappointed with the end product.

I think that is quite an accurate summing up!

Clinically speaking, the BA service and style is pretty positive on the whole - but lacks a certain sparkle!

I have a suspicion that if T5 had been left alone after it had shaken down and the staff bedded-in with the new processes we would have done it! However, BA has been in a constant state of change for 15+ years (I swear it's an addiction - the managers are even asked "What have you changed?" at interviews and wouldn't get promotion if they replied that nothing in their department was necessary!)

To use a teacher's favourite phrase - "Could do better!"

[bealine]

Sorry Bealine, I can't let you get away with making an incorrect statement about easyJet.

Sorry - didn't mean to be so rude about EZY. Once upon a time they were unashamedly no-frills, but I guess success and obtaining business travellers upped the game for them!

[PAXboy]

bealineHow interesting, though, that you used the British Post Office as your analogy because, for all the rhetoric and supposition over the cabin crew dispute, not one newspaper drew on the parallels between BA and Royal Mail!Wow - that IS funny. :hmm:

I chose the Post Office as it is such a good example of the right action being taken (reduce costs) but at the wrong time and on a time-scale set by politicians and accountants. My guess is that the T5 idea of 'running on auto' was sold to both BA + BAA on the basis of cost saving NOT on service delivery. Oh yes, of course, service delivery would have been high on the list - but not to anyone who understands where the travelling public are.

Quite apart from the staggeringly obvious - when something goes wrong, we want to see a human being. That is the same for ANY line of enquiry. I'll bet some of those senior managers don't understand the frustration with websites where you cannot find the answer, then calling the 'help line' to be told whilst waiting that, "There is so much information and help on our web site." because they don't do that themselves.

It's not just BA + BAA that have caught this disease. The whole of the British govt has been based on it for the past couple of decades!

OK, end of rant.

[wiggy]

As a long haul "Nigel" can I thank you for your postings, it reminds us of the stresses and hassel you front of house staff face on a daily basis...hope you have a great Christmas and fingers crossed :ooh: for 2010.

Rgds

[Seat62K]

bealine,

Your comment about Ryanair telling its passengers "tough" is, I think, somewhat unfair.

Two examples:

Ryanair put on extra flights to Ireland from Stansted on Saturday to cope with cancellations from Luton on Friday. Remember, this was due to snow - i.e., out of Ryanair's control - and was action not forced on it by the EU directive.

When Ryanair had to cancel an Alicante-Santander flight earlier this year an empty 737 was sent out from Stansted to get the passengers to their destination.

I think many staff at legacy carriers assume that airlines such as Ryanair offer poor service. I am a customer of both BA and Ryanair and know that the differences between the two carriers are not significant, apart from value for money. (I refer here to BA shorthaul.) It is good to see BA apparently getting closer to Ryanair in relation to punctuality!

[bealine]

I will apologise for my comment on both EZY and FR - it was based upon their reputation over 5 years ago. For the record, I have flown on FR and they did exactly what they said they would at the time they said they would do it - and with a smile, so no complaints there!

The trouble with any business is that once you pick up a bad reputation, it tends to stick.

Sorry anyway!

[Rusland 17]

On the other hand, you only have to glance at the comments on airlinequality.com to get a feel for the level of customer service that Ryanair provides when things go wrong. Even allowing for the fact that dissatisfied customers tend to post more often than satisfied ones (on every forum - including this one!), it's a somewhat damning catalogue of poor treatment.

[Final 3 Greens]

The trouble with any business is that once you pick up a bad reputation, it tends to stick.

Oh the irony! :}

[Rodger Ramjet]

Just returned from an epic(??!!) journey to Belgium and back.

Friday afternoon BA flight from GLA to LHR late: Aircraft taxied to runway then Captain announced we had missed our slot. Had to sit on taxiway and wait for new slot.

Friday evening flight to Brussels delayed 3 hours due to 'weather conditions'. Some slush on the grass at LHR, but staff unable to tell me what the exact problem was.

Arrived Brussels - no bags. Arrivals hall strewn with luggage. Logged lost bags with handler and a nice Belgian man gave us a lift to Bruges. 1 foot of snow at Brussels, but business as usual.

Monday afternoon flight from Brussels to LHR. Incoming aircraft unable to taxi to stand for 30 mins because some f*ckwit had left some freight blocking the stand. 2 feet of snow at Brussels but business as usual.

Arrived LHR and sat for 2 hours (two hours) waiting for a stand. Captain announced this was because departing aircarft were being de-iced. Got to stand 3 hours late to find all BA short haul flights cancelled. Some slush on grass at LHR, but staff told us the snow was very bad.

BA rep gave us a hotel voucher and told us to pick up bags from belt 7 and go away. Waited for 2 hours at belt 7 - no bags.

Tannoy announcement that coaches were being organised to take us to GLA. Queued for 1 hour and BA man told us bags were in a holding area and they would be sent to our house. Told that we had missed all Glasgow coaches, but we could go to Edinburgh if we wanted.

Got Edinburgh coach to Hamilton services, taxi home. Off to bed now.:D Too tired to be angry.:ooh:

[Rusland 17]

1 foot of snow at Brussels, but business as usual...

2 feet of snow at Brussels but business as usual...While I am not denying that Brussels airport may be rather better able to deal with snowfall than any of London's airports are, it has been very far from "business as usual" at BRU over the past few days, with significant numbers of delays and cancellations due to the weather.

[Final 3 Greens]

I've been working in Munich this week and it was -11c when I arrived on Sunday, rocketing up to -3 by Monday morning, due to the arrival of weather that deposited a fair amount of snow.

Got to work Monday, autobahn was salted and cleared, as were main roads, so no problem driving the hire car, although side streets required caution.

MUC seemed to be operating reasonably, although ther emust have been some disruption.

However, this morning, I went for breakfast and nearly fell off my chair laughing, for the local TV station was taking some relish in showing pix of FRA with the headline "Frankfurt am Main; 'Schnee und eiss chaos.'

Maybe it is not just a British affliction.......:}

[Shack37]

I have Bio - CdG - Abz tomorrow. All finger crossing and prayers welcomed.

Merry Christmas and a Happy Hogmanay to all.