EY Upgardes

[Hoggtart]

Ho Humm just received the upgrade programme for 2010, well I guess the statement made when I joined that we should "all have our commands within 18 months" is a load of bollocks! 18 months came and went and now the programme shows it will more than likely be about 12 years plus to a command!
No upgrades showing on the A320 just 'airbus' and not many of them.
Take this excellent bit of news couple it with no bonus, no pay increase and no increase in allowance and the world looks grand. As they say 'we are lucky to have a job'.........

[djuggler]

you're the one who is saying a lot of bollocks, dude. you say 18 months came and went, so i assume that you've been around for 2 years by now. if my assumption is correct, then your seniority should be in the upper mid range, which puts you in a year or two to command, INSHALLAH! :rolleyes: the guys who joined 2 1/2 - 3 years ago are now being given chance for upgrade (though the failure rate is quite high, sad to say). :{there will be 48 upgrades in 2010, so what the hell are you saying that it's going to take 12 years? well, maybe for new joiners, but not for old timers. just do your math first before posting, okay dude? and better start studying, or i will fail you! :ugh: hahaha

[springbok449]

Hoggtart,

I am not sure how you are working your maths mate but with 48 commands on the Airbus alone projected for 2010, not sure how you reckon it will take you 12 years to get your command? Unless you are basing your self on your own performances...;)

[Sir Osis of the river]

Guys,

Don't get wound up by Hogs. He has already proved that all he can do is whinge about unsubstanciated claims. Just read his previous thread, EY Advisory. When challenged for details, he mysteriously dissapeared and has not commented on the matter again.

Now he starts another whinging thread. Maybe he should be studying for the upgrade instead of posting nonsense on Prune.

On the upgrade e-mail, nice to see a big fat zero on DEC's. I am sure the rate will increase in 2011 when the next lot of a/c start arriving.:D

Just my humble opinion

Sir O

[springbok449]

Sir O,

Fully agree with you that there is a big fat ZERO on the DEC, really good news hope it stays like that...

Bokkie

[Gulf Course]

Go and read Mr. Sandpits definition of a bonus in EY Bonus and learn something.

I see a total of 50 Capt upgrades next year but hell its the season to be jolly so someone had to moan about it. I like the new definition of 48 Airbus Capt upgrades as not being many. I've not forgotten some of my past employers who didn't have a single upgrade for years.

The annual increment is a pay rise not matter how you look it. If it is sufficient to cover inflation and price increases is another question. We all would like a pay rise for doing nothing more but sometimes you have to take stock of the reality of the situation and that is the Airline continues to lose money. Okay, so there are rumours of upper management bonuses but constantly comparing them to us is a waste of time, they have their contracts and we have ours and there is nothing you can do about it. If you want to use that as an excuse to complain then go ahead and further depress yourself.

Changes to the allowances do take far too long I agree. At least they are looked at though.

[Dixons Cider]

I don't know why you guys are responding to Mr Hogg re command upgrades, he commented about EY Upgardes

Got no idea what an upgarde is, but maybe something like this..
http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/6000/6021/fencing_6_lg.gif

[iflysky]

Mmmm, not sure about the 12 year statement. At around 50, per year, it looks like just under a 3 year wait. Considering we only have just over 800 guys on the list it's not too bad. However, I am also hearing the failure rate is high, but at least there is a chance.
On another note, looks like for some 320 fos it will be faster to upgrade than to ccq over to the 330 as fos. Ha......

[Chandler Bing]

12 years ??? I don't think so

If you join now, let's say we are around 800 pilots, 350 captains, then 450 F/O's all fleets all together, at 50 upgrades a year gives 9 years, without counting the failures, resignations ( few only ) and the guys who don't meet the requirements at the date of the bidding.
Most probably closer to 7 or 8 years then.

For the guys already there for a while let's ballpark between 2 and a half and 7, so 4 and a half maximum... It's not that bad to get a command on a widebody. If you get it on the minibus then you loose, compared to the lucky ones going on widebody, but command is a command, he ? And you get the chance to fly with the best....cadets.

Nobody should trust the words, thus what is spoken about at the interview doesn't count, just read your contract and see that there are no promises of any kind on it. Even if there was, they are worth nothing in this part of the world. Try to go to court agaisnt EY in UAE, we all wish you good luck and the ability to pack fast back home.....:\

Should you not like it, then leave. Nobody cares here.

[Chandler Bing]

I almost forgot about that one............ Totally right, but you have to have some cash to get the good lawyers and be as fearless than they are.... it would take a lot of energy , time and money as an individual to get the court rule in your favor and have actually the court order fulfilled.

[saviboy]

50 upgrades while receiving 4 a/c a year. what about in 2012 and the following years? is it still going to be 4 A/C a year?
I don t believe so. Then I suppose all the projections you guys made here are not valid are they?

[VONKLUFFEN]

28 years ago when I joined my former airline there was a great fleet expansion taking place. The country economics looked brilliant and the government had a lot of oil to pay for all of it. Then all in few years went to hell for many reasons.
Therefore no more planes , no more upgrades. I spent 14y as FO until I quit. With my experience I was offered a DEC position. Yep they paid for my training. I was very lucky! Had nothing to do with brains...LOL
My classmates who stayed spent another 12 years on the RHS.
I wish you all the best, really, and hope all the numbers match your dreams. I say dreams in a positive way, not sarcastically. But here is how I survived the uncertainty of nothing happening around us. Be positive, enjoy your flights, DO NOT listen to the whiners and pay attention to winner's opinions, STAY AWAY of the first group. DON'T let your soul be poisoned by those individuals. They were , are and will be unhappy creatures that nothing will satisfied them, EVER. Here in our industry there are SO many.
Time will come and you will get your upgrade. You are a pilot now. That is easy. Now, behave like a captain, fly like a captain, listen like one, feedback the same way, stop being an FO. When the chance comes it will be a piece of cake your upgrade. There is nothing to study when the time arrives, but if you start changing strategy to become a captain it might be a bit to late to learn what is not written on a SOP book. Enjoy the ride in the mean time with positive attitude and happiness in your hearts. That will give you the strength to cope with turbulence, bad weathers and delays. Your upgrade being , hopefully NOT, one of them.
All the best. I mean it!

[spanishfly69]

Vonkluffen, I normally do not waste my time writing in PPRUNE. But your post is THE BEST ONE I have ever read here.. the best luck to you... keep having fun...

[Jameel]

:D agree 100% VONKLUFFEN
Well said!

[Will Rogers]

Excellent post Vonkluffen!!! :ok:

:) Will

[saviboy]

Cayenne,
where is number 4 in your list ? :)

[quack]

Vonkluffen
nice little pep talk, a bit idealistic perhaps esp when talking about thinking/acting like a captain.
Most airlines in the world hire F/Os based on there COMMAND POTENTIAL, apparently not EY going by the rate of command upgrade failure. At EY you are very definitely treated like a lowly F/O. Take a look at the clues...
F/Os not allowed the responsibility of handling on the ground which is airbus SOP.
A culture of captains making all the decisions not the PF backed up by the captain.
Pre flight and in flight cabin managers and captain communicating in a loop exclusive of the f/o... or other crew for that matter.
Captain can I close the door, Captain can I board, Captain what would you like to eat/ drink....... (turns to f/o) ... and you? Captain Captain Captain etc etc.
Look at the company communications, the ACARS information from NOC is addressed to the CAPTAIN and CABIN MANAGER, what ever happened to THE CREW!! be it flightdeck or cabin. This is a culture already instilled in the airline and one which should be addressed by the CRM courses and trainers.
The fact that crew are failing upgrades is a bad reflection on the recruitment process ,the training dept and the culture within the company. You want a high standard of command upgrades then TRAIN AND TREAT THEM AS SUCH. Then perhaps f/o's will start "thinking" like a captain as you say.
SPANISHFLY,
you say you don't usually waste your time posting on prune but you obviously waste alot of your time READING prune.
CAYENNEs post is the REALITY of the situation, he/she is a REALIST!

[desertwarrior]

At EY you are very definitely treated like a lowly F/O

I beg to differ Quack. I have over 17 years in this business, and I definitely remember the "lowly FO" times. CRM is generally quite good in EY in my opinion, and the FO's given plenty of respect, indeed moreso than in my previous airline, even referred to as "Captain" by the CC.
I think the most relevant point made in the previous post was that a FO must always THINK like a Captain, ie "What would I do in this situation?", PREPARE for work like a Captain, and be ready to ACT like a Captain, should the need arise, otherwise you're doing yourself and the pax a great disservice. Remember if something happens to the guy in the left seat, you ARE the Captain.
Cheers
DW

[quack]

Fair enough Desert Warrior, there will be many varied opinions on this no doubt.
I too have been in the business long enough, 21 years. A large part of that as an f/o and as a captain as well. Alot of it for a major carrier and also for several other large scheduled operators in different parts of the world and whilst the term "lowly" is probably a bit harsh the rest of my post I very definitely stand by. I am sorry you came from a place that sounded worse but if pilots like you deem this culture as acceptable then you aren't helping to improve things.
As for "THINKING" like a captain, surely as a first officer you should be doing this every minute you are at work, it is an integral part of being a "team" and being part of a flight deck crew. Or are you inferring that most of the time when you are not "THINKING" like a captain you are just the third auto pilot?
There is also a big difference in this part of the world being called "Captain" by people you work with as opposed to being treated like one. I would suggest more to do with brown noseing than anything else.

[EYZ]

Quack,

I can't get excited about who is asked to shut the door and who the ACARS is addressed to.
But some of the points you raise don't really add up to me. I am fully on side with trying to make all F/O's act and think like Captains and that should be the goal for one and all, but at the end of the day one person IS the captain and one is not. The Captain does make the decisions, be that closing the door or where to divert to, a good one makes those choices after consulting with their F/O. So if we are not the captain now we have to live with that fact and hope that EY does not take on any more DEC and give our good and honest F/O's their chance at the left seat.

[Dixons Cider]

Agree with you EYZ.

From where I sit in my FO seat, there is definitely no culture of a steep cockpit gradient in EY. I'm part of the team, and generally made to feel so. If thats not the case and I feel that I'm not being included in the loop, then its up to me to do something about it.

re doors, signs, ACARS, and even taxying on PF sectors - well there are just bigger things in life to concern me.

[frankbama]

As a Capt. on the 320 I think they need to do something. The pay is completely unfair. We are worked until fatigued, we fly more hours than any fleet with few days off and are almost always called out on stand by days. If they need to hire DEC's to correct the problem then bring them on. We are stuck on this plane as they won't allow us to move (regardless of seniority) because they say they need the experienced Capt. on the 320. If they don't get some relief for us we will time out.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Just a question Frank,

What did your letter of employment that you signed say? (A330 or A320?)

(I realize that what is on paper and what happens in reality may very well be two different things.)

Sir O

[frankbama]

Hey Sir;
Yes my employment say's 320, So if thats the logic your going to use, where in you letter does it say you should upgrade?
Good luck on your evaluation.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Frank,

You are right. Nowhere does it say anything about an upgrade. Nor CCQ.

So sit back and chill. It will all happen. (Eventually, inshalla) I see the bids are open for A330/A320 CCQ, so heres hoping you get some relief soon.

Sir O

[NG_Kaptain]

The latest rumour (This is a rumour network) is that since the 340 fleet size will remain constant and both the 330 and 320 fleet will increase they are planning on splitting the 340. Word is the main fleet will be 330/320 with the 340 being a separate fleet. Who knows what's next?

[polarus]

Frank

... actually you know what Frank, you are better off quitting! Simply put, with your fatigue at it's peak and your inability to see beyond your left seat, I would much rather spend my days with someone who is supporting my progression, not one who is willing to give it away so freely!

Our industry would profit two fold with inhouse upgrades, employee morale would boost not to mention that promises would be kept! I wonder if these DEC's bumped you out of your seat, how fatigued would you be?

[springbok449]

Polarus,
Straight to the point...Well said....

[Hoggtart]

Agree with all you say. Not sure some other PPRuNe's will, they seem to have an adoration of the company and the way its run.
Cheers

[Jumbo Wambo]

hey cayenne I'm also with you on your post....

[astronaute]

Not a fu:mad:ing bonus !!!!! :ugh:

Where is my fu:mad:ing bonus ???? :confused:


:{

[EY346Driver]

With the introduction of iachieve in 2010 they forgot about our iearn. So lots of us will apply idontgiveatoss in 2010 :E

[Hoggtart]

well said Polaris and Springbok449, aside from those lucky sods that were here early enough to be gifted commands many came with many promises gave up a life and career in other decsent companies, and now work as fu:=ing zombies never seeing the light of day not to mention family etc, well I guess its the Middle East and like the three wise men we followed a star here and instead of finding a messiah we ended up in the stable covered in cow ****! No command upgrade and the distinct possibility that the company will indeed bring in yet more DEC's hiding behind the umbrella of "commercial expediency" and "commercial needs", really its because they can't organize a p:mad:ss up in a brewery!

[New On A320]

:ugh:Hey Hog, this may or may not put smile on your face. I was talking to another FO today who was talking to Cheif Pilot 2 days ago and from what he said they are looking at upgrades again as it seems they run a bit short and got some numbers wrong. They gonna re-look at all guys who have the hours and who have not failed an upgrade assesment here or previous companies, as i am sure they can find that crap out if they really want to. But looks like some older guys who missed out might get another chance. or maybe this is just usual b:mad::mad:t coming from the CP.

lets wait and see what happens, will not effect me as i only joined 8 months ago so i will be like you hogg and wait to see if promises arrive.

:ugh:

[astronaute]

:ok: thx !

[Hoggtart]

Cheers New On A320, got to the point were I don't give a fig. I enjoy the flying and frankly I don't care which side of the cockpit I sit in to do it! The buggers will not get me down! No matter what BS they push out......:cool: