Gippsland Aero sold to Indian company

[wishiwasupthere]

India's Mahindra Acquires 2 Australian Firms - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4420269&c=ASI&s=AIR)

[rioncentu]

Far out why can't we keep good old fashioned Aussie stuff as AUSSIE STUFF :{:mad:

[dhavillandpilot]

Now if I get this right the Indians have bought GA. GA owns the manufacturing rights to the WELL TESTED nomad.

The scenario is now that the Indians will sell the WELL TESTED nomad to the Australian Army Aviation and RAAF as a replacemnet for the Caribou.

Being a developing country India gets preferential treatment and we get the WELL TESTED nomad.

Now thats a fairy tale (unfortunately it may very well come true)

Merry Christmas to all a Pprune, I enjoy the argy bargy of this forum

[Horatio Leafblower]

Does that mean the Airvan is now a Curry van? :uhoh:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The scenario is now that the Indians will sell the WELL TESTED nomad to the Australian Army Aviation and RAAF as a replacemnet for the Caribou.


Gomad = Caribou ?

HA! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

ROLFMAO!

Dr :8

Sorry! Had a bit of a moment there!

[Captain Sand Dune]

You mean like the Kiwis did with the CT4?

[Hasherucf]

Well Tested == Well Crashed ???

[Trojan1981]

Will they continue manufacturing in Australia? I would never get into an Indian built aircraft, not after driving their cars:eek:

Why can't we keep anything?

[Andy_RR]

Why can't we keep anything?

'cos it seems noone in this country is prepared to invest in anything apart from digging holes in the ground.

A

[john_tullamarine]

noone in this country is prepared to invest in anything

a long succession of governments (of both flavours) has a lot to answer for in respect of their national abandonment of aviation ...

[Super Cecil]

Just out of interest anybody know how much Gippsland got from both the federal and state governments over the last few years?

[sprocket check]

Don't really care how much they got. There are far bigger freeloaders than aviation manufacturing companies. No, Australia doesn't deserve any kind of manufacturing because it doesn't support it. If one does well they get cut down by their own, isn't that the Australian way? Proof right here on Pprune.

Don't just blame the govt either. It's a national disease. Shame.

[ozaggie]

Sprocket Check, you are definitely on to it. We deserve what we get because as soon as someone gets it together with a half reasonable product, we commence to tear it down. What the f..k is wrong with this country that we cant appreciate that we do have world class technical and engineering skills. Why do we always seem to drag down our innovators, imaginators (my term), and inventors, in favour of political expediency and being seen to be a faithful servant to the great bwana overseas, roughly north-east of where I am sitting. Sick of it, Black Box, DME, and christ knows what else has disappeared into some other Treasury because we have not had the guts to stand up for ourselves and protect our intellectual property............Rant over!

[boofhead]

Ozzaggie is absolutely and completely right.

[Super Cecil]

Boofhead and Ozaggie, how much did you put into Gippsland?

[the wizard of auz]

Having lived and worked amongst them, I learnt enough to know I'll never get into anything designed, built, crewed, maintained, wired, plumbed, painted, delivered, driven, owned, financed, favoured or recommended by indians.

Bwaaaahahahaha. :} that about covers it.

Hey Theth ya old bastard. hows stuff?.

[yowieII]

I'm with the Mutt on that one, but they will be able to put a great horn on it:}

[Joker 10]

The principal reason for the move is they were just hamstrung by CASA interference and bloody mindedness so the move to another country where they can proplerly develop the range of GA aircraft.

Typical of the problems were the protracted difficulties getting the underslung cargo pod certified by CASA, it didn't happen and ultimately the pod was certified in the US, the fitment of the Turbo Charged piston engine was also a major drama when in reality it should have taken hours to approve, it still is not certified as I understand the situation, but ready to be corrected if indeed sense has happened and it is all go.

The whole history of the CASA intervention is a tale of incompetence and woeful regulatory impost.

Good on them for moving and getting some of their reward in cash for the effort they have put in, sad that yet another Australian Aviation ICON goes else where, the CT 4 was a similar debacle and the KIWI's fixed it.

[Sunfish]

Doing anything constructive apart from mining and property development is just too hard for any State or Federal Government to understand. What then happens is that all Governments then adopt what I call "Conventional Wisdom", which is a combination of a lack of vision plus some self serving comments by various industry players.

The victims of this "Conventional Wisdom" include:

- The Victa Airtourer - Cessna and Piper dumped (in the economic sense) aircraft to kill it and the Federal Government refused to intervene, the conventional wisdom being "Australia doesn't have the economy of scale to build aircraft".

- The Nomad.

- Ansett Airlines - Conventional wisdom "Australia is only big enough to support one airline".

And now Gippsland Aviation.

I would imagine that GA was sunk by a combination of Three things:

1. Total lack of interest by both State and Federal Government, but primarily state, knowing one of the people who would have been concerned and also from hearing comments by one of GA's owners some years ago about their total lack of meaningful help.

2. CASA's total obfuscation towards certifying anything at all, and it's seeming determination to suppress or destroy General Aviation activity other than training airline fodder.

3. A financial sector that doesn't understand financing anything other than mines or property development.

I suspect that (3) was probably the main issue because GA would have to have been looking for finance if it wanted to build the Nomad. Gippsland Aviation may even have been "shopped around" by its current financiers and then had the rug pulled out from under it when Mahindra made the offer, but I really wouldn't know.

To be fair, every time something gets sold to a foreigner an Australian has sold it. But from what I saw of the place, the owners had fought the good fight against impossible odds, and deserve to make a quid out of this.. They had had a measure of success, but without a little support and encouragement from the Government and CASA, they were never going to succeed against the entrenched vested interests that guard the foreign aircraft markets, and without a lot of export earnings you cannot win.

I worked out that last bit when I was working for Government. No Australian company that wants to make "elaborately transformed manufactures" (ie aircraft, computers etc.) can survive without having a strong international market share. There are a few that can do this, but not if the Government keeps putting barriers in your path.

[TBM-Legend]

without a real domestic market you can't maunufacture aircraft. The R&D and production costs without economies of scale kil you . Economics 101..

[Fred Gassit]

It can't be an easy sector to be successful in.
Most of the American GA manufacturers regularly change hands or in and out of bankruptcy, think Mooney and Piper as just a couple.

[ControlLock]

Gippsland has got the approval through for the Turbo TC320.
Several already delivered and in service, but it was a lonnnnnngggggg drawn out process!

[Andy_RR]

without a real domestic market you can't maunufacture aircraft. The R&D and production costs without economies of scale kil you . Economics 101..


Try telling that to Evektor and other European LSA/aircraft manufacturers. Most of their volume is export from their country of origin.

Bloody-minded, arrogant, Australian economics 101!

PS: I see the domestic market for iron ore and LNG is significant to support local development of these technologies - NOT!

[TBM-Legend]

Andy RR you must be a pilot! Comparing the export of LNG, coal and iron ore to building aircraft....:eek:

There are some successes in ultralight type aircraft here. Why because of the product [being good - what the customers want!] and export into huge markets. Fully certified aircraft/helicopters are another thing indeed.

PS: Have you put your money where your mouth is and bought an Oz made aircraft?

[Brian Abraham]

TBM, Andy makes a very good point. Place called Brazil who manufacture Embraer, outstanding success and very little in the way of a home market. Don't fly VB or you might be flying on one of their products.

[TBM-Legend]

The Brasilians created an industry from a strong subsidised home base. The first aircraft made were licenced built Piper models which were 'evolved' into the Bandit etc which was ordered in large numbers by Brasian Air Force etc to meet their domestic demands given that private type GA did not really exist there. The government then, of course, subsidised the following models. Bit a a small version of Airbus in South America.

Agree that government will is important.

I did not say it could not be done but rather aircraft must be designed and built that have a real customer demand. The Nomad eg did not...

[bushy]

New Zealand has been building aircraft for fifty years. The Fletcher which has developed into the Pac 750 has been manufactured in Hamilton since the fifties, and the Victa/CT4 was another. It can be done.
Maybe we need more kiwis here.

[the wizard of auz]

I thought they had exported most of them here already. Some of them have to stay home and run their country. :E

[CafeClub]

I'm glad the replies have started shifting back towards economies of scale and away from racist digs.

Drop the scales from your eyes guys! :ugh:

Mahindra & Mahindra is now (globally) worth about 6 Billion USD, employs about 100k people around the world and covers a range of industries from scooters to IT to real estate to finance. (A side note is that their IT arm is - one of - the Indian companies now said to be in conversation with Westpac about managing their IT etc).

Economies of scale is what is helping Indian cos develop, as the local market is so huge. Basic stuff really. Sell 20 million people something for 20 dollars or sell 1 billion people something for 1 dollar.

One stat that really conveys this scale is that the domestic Indian market adds about 5 million NEW mobile subscribers PER MONTH. And I pay 1 paise per second for my calls here (about AUD 1 cent a minute) .

Yes, India can seem to be chaotic and is certainly a very different place to live and work in, but so is everywhere compared to 'home'.

Comments about "I'd never get in an Indian made..." are slightly, well, :=.

Just looking at domestic competitors to M&M: Tata now owns Jag/Land Rover, Bajaj has 35%-ish of Austrian motorcycle maker KTM (and there have been rumours of a buy-out this year), and Mercedes has had an Indian manufacturing plant since 1994. (They currently make the C-class and E-class), etc etc

By all means lament the demise of something, but don't be Luddites, and don't express that luddite-ism through racist attacks. It's embarrassing.

Maybe with the cash and access to (the Indian) market that M&M has, GA is about to embark on a massive expansion. Wouldn't that be good for those engaged with GA?

[TBM-Legend]

how many CT-4's have they built in 2009???? The PAC 750 is a limited production aircraft. Not sure they employ many people on that project or that is helps the NZ balance of payments..

Still, can't knock them for trying but I don't think PAC business compares with Embraer..

[Andy_RR]

TBM - typical Australian response. Always reasons why others have it easier to do stuff. For some reason, Australians are wed to this "level playing field" sense of "fairness" nonsense.

Oh, BTW, my money is going into a start-up company to develop a new technology product. I am hopeful ways can be found to manufacture here, but judging by the can't do attitude of the supplier base so far, it might be following GA to India or elsewhere.

[henry crun]

TBM: You are the only one who has suggested that PAC business does not compare with Embraer, and by association comparing the Brazilian economy with NZ.

In like mind I suggest to you that Embraer does not compare with Boeing or Airbus.

[sprocket check]

This one must be particularly embarrassing to the govt as GA even got a mention in the White Paper (which IMHO is mostly regurgitated backwash after a night out) as a success model. The regulator certainly regulates though seemingly not safe operation but the demise of General Aviation. Maybe their catch phrase should be (actually is in between the lines) 'Clear Skies' not 'Safe Skies'

[TBM-Legend]

Agree that the government's policies inhibit aviation at all levels. Manufacturing is subject to a regressive oversight indeed..

[Sunfish]

The secret is to get export firmly into your brain and design and build a product that can be exported.

That means it has to be internationally competitive.

You can manufacture aircraft in Australia, but you have Three barriers to surmount.

1. Other countries protective policies towards their aircraft industries - don't even think of exporting to America unless you are a mature exporter with a well established brand and no American competitors. Even if the overt protectionism embodied in their regulations doesn't get you, the covert grassroots protectionism will get you every time. I could tell a story or Two.

2. The Australian Government policies are not conducive to building viable export industries unless you are into mining, or agriculture. They simply don't care because based on "conventional wisdom" Australia is too small to have the economies of scale to manufacture much unless it is very Australia specific like sheep shearing gear.

Unfortunately the governments "conventional wisdom" is a relic of 1950's thinking as Japanese Kanban systems and modern computer assisted manufacturing has been driving the economic order quantity of everything to one unit.

Gippsland Aviations computer based manufacturing set up provides just such a system with much better accuracy than anything Cessna and Piper could achieve, at least in their piston range, so I wwould be surprised if their direct costs were not competitive.

What isn't competitive is the bloody minded red tape involved in the tax system treatment of export related costs. If you want to export you have to be constantly on an aircraft and in your customers faces. Our Government doesn't understand this.

As for CASA, they don't have a mandate to support let alone facilitate an export oriented aviation industry, in fact they did everything possible to frustrate Gippsland Aviation since day One, if what I was told is correct.

As for Austrade...what a joke. they once set me up for a meeting in Los Angeles with a guy who turned out to want us to make military stuff to circumvent U.S. Government trade sanctions.

3. The finance system here doesn't understand about export or financing aircraft manufacturing. Neither does the Government. That means your cost of funds is going to be higher than your competitors.

There are people and companies that successfully export very high tech Australian manufactured goods, but they are not household names.

[Joker 10]

Sunfish, pretty much on the money, Austrade is a joke and EFIC is likewise totally unsupportive of Australian innovation in manfacture, we used to have a viable electronics manufacturing Industry in Adelaide which is all but decimated today and only really small scale supporting ASG and similar with piece work.

The sanctions in the so called "free trade" agreement "bi lateral bullsh*t" with the U.S. means other than very selective food items that the U.S. has out of season there is no real export to the U.S.

The U.S. uses Australia as trade offsets into Asia as their own dealings with the emerging Asian economies are fragile as opposed to ours which are strong and growing.

The Japan U.S. alliance of convenience is slowly being strangled by overt bureacracy on both sides operating in concert to screw each other like dancing with wolves.

Mahindra is very well respected in India and their principal export market is the Middle East so the Gippsland Developed product should do well and get access to markets denied to Australia.

For Australia it is yet another failure of Government no matter which party is in power the bureacracy kills Australian innovation.

[Andy_RR]

CafeClub,

I'd like to point out that whilst India has a population of significantly more than a billion (and growing too rapidly) the proportion that actually has any brass (or valuable skills) is very small indeed. Sure, you can sell things for a dollar to lots of people, but 80% of those billion people can't afford to spend a dollar.

I'd estimate that the number of people who have incomes anywhere near western levels is somewhere between 40-80million, so economy-wise, entering the market is like opening up a mid-size European nation, but without the infrastructure and with bureacracy that the Australian guvmint can only dream about (although there's always a way to get things done) An interesting prospect then, but not something to wet your pants over.

Oh, and by way of background, I've done more than my share of time in India, so I've ridden (and driven) an autorickshaw or two. Another thing - they may have cheap engineers, but they are sadly lacking in the real-world experience that comes from living in a developed economy. You will be teaching them stuff every step of the way, so don't expect a lot of innovation this decade.

On the other hand, Australia has never had a higher profile in the world as now, but somehow we never figure out that holding control of our own industry is the key to its continued success. Multinationals will never decide in the interest of our country.

[the air up there]

Can anyone say what effect this will have on aircraft owners in Australia in regards to spare parts and buying new machines??

[Jethro Gibbs]

does this mean some guys going to come knocking on my door at 7pm asking you buy plane sir better than one you have on your runway.

[Fanny Phelan]

Any RR's Puppadum hate fest

Andy, you are a complete nong. you have obviously spent quite some time pedalling a tri-shaw and no time at all having a look at the actual state and capacity of top end Indian manufacturing. You are ignorant of the reality of the Indian Aerospace industry and their automotive manufacturing as well. i would put them well ahead of Aus and WAAAAAAYYYYY ahead of PAC as far as their (pointy end) aeropsace capability, having actually seen some of it myself. I could give examples but there is little point as you wrong and seemingly happy to make ignorant statements such as some of your previous classics.

Were you bitten by a curry when you were a small child??

As for the other extensive and profound statements regarding obstructionism and lack of support from CASA, EFIC, the state and Federal Goverments, some is true, much is opinion, and badly informed opinion at that, and some of what has been stated here is arrant bullsh!t. Oh how the experts start buzzing around the perceived corpse in no time at all. BA and JT are better informed that most and Sunny has some idea but the vast majority , sorry bushy, including you, are wide of the mark.

The GFC, tight credit, no money for finance of new buyers and a bullsh!t US dollar are good reasons to look for investement, especially when GA was looking to expand into additional world markets, ( do not just read India here), and the need to fund R&D projects (Howard swung an axe through Australian manufacturing R&D, calling it industrial welfare, good one John). Cessna have done their best to kill the airvan off and US trade agreement is no useful agreement at all, another good one John!

GA has built about 150 Airvans and about 50 GA200 cropdusters I think, and most of these aircraft have been exported, Aussie is a small part of their market, they are very good manufacturers of products with proven international demand, they don't just build planes for Kunnunurra and Gove to provide something for Low Time sprog CPLs to complain about having not enough turbine engines and being too slow.

Any way who said the whole thing was going off shore, I didn't see that in the media release, those i know at GA are looking toward the future of the compant with great optimism.

I was a little surprised to see many of the great knockers of Aussie designed and manufactured aircraft( essentially the Airtourer, Nomad and Airvan) are some of the first to put their two cents worth about aussie manufacturing, all of these aircraft faced huge opposition from the locals who individually did their bit to knock, criticise and generally not support these products, and now are banging the gong once again saying what a shame it is, w@ankers, it would be different if even a few of you actually knew what you were talking about, but that has not stopped you previously.

Wait for the next installment, like some of us are are, before you make comment on the facts, that would surely make more sense. as far as i know that's what the boys in Gippsland are doing. You all seem to know more about the rhymes and reasons than anyone who actually works there from what I can find out. (please PM me with the source of your info so I can pass it on, I know some of the blokes would like to get their hands on the real story)

I must say that I have always wondered why indian cars are manufactured with Mirrors or turn signals as they seem completely redundant in their method of driving (makes them such good taxi drivers over here I suppose), but they sure do wear horns out by using them almost non-stop

Incoming!!!......

[Andy_RR]

Funnily enough Fanny, you won't catch me disagreeing with much of what you've written. I am well aware of what India can do, both in Aerospace and Automotive, although my direct experience is in the Automotive sector. By no means should they be underestimated - they have some pretty fantastic technologies available to them and hats off to them for it!

But I do get tired of people comparing wages of Indian engineers and saying this gives them a cost advantage - yes it does, but not nearly as much as people believe for reasons I stated earlier. And when that situation changes, they will be as valuable as any Western-educated/brung-up engineer too - top Indian talent is hugely mobile, as you'll have spotted in the various places. Bottom line is there is no excuse why Australia can't do some of the stuff India, China, Czech Republic, Brazil etc are doing.

...except there is an excuse of course, which is the terminal Australian disease. Like a child of wealthy parents who can run back to daddy for more money, we can always dig a bit more dirt out of the big hole and sell it to more innovative and industrious people. Nowadays, of course, we don't just sell the dirt, but also the controlling interest of whole companies digging the dirt.

Which leads me to the point I'd prefer to make and the biggest disappointment of seeing Indians buy GA and AA, is that, yet again, our nation loses control of key companies and the business decisions go elsewhere, not to be made in the interests of growing Australian business, but to further the aims of some foreign power base.

Sorry, whilst I applaud what GA and AA do (and will continue to do), the relinquishing of control of these businesses is a huge and short-sighted loss to Australia and its future, compared to what could happen.

A

[ozaggie]

Now that,Andy RR, me old chum, has hit the nail right on the head. Its not about the product, its about the lack of guts on the part of our fearless leaders to protect a product that we can clearly do well. How long will the FOC on Qantas remain in place? I suspect it is all going to get too hard for Krudd & Co so they will just let it go. Instead of being the good old easygoing Aussie, I think it is about time we got a little mercenary and started protecting what we can, while we can, and value-adding in country is the way to go.

[VH-XXX]

So what is the solution when a foreign owned company likes an Australian product and they want to buy it?

Is our Government supposed to step in and stop the sale and thus take away cash and recognition for the hard working Australians that started the company and put their lives into it?

[Fanny Phelan]

Andy RR, agree with much in your response, however I believe that you may be off the mark regarding low wage engineering in this instance.

ozgaggie, what do you exactly expect our PM to do about this?? this is no hostile take over, ther is no statement at the moment regarding the whole box and dice going off shore, what is the point of your post?? Mr Rudd failed to make good the consequences of Mr Howard's shortsightedness from the last century?

GA is a small player in the manufacturing business, they employ about 100 staff (or did, not sure at the moment due GFC ) they try hard and have excellect product base (despite all the pro-cessna, airvan knockers on this forum) they have excellent product support, especially compared to cessna, and are looking toward placing an upgraded turbine twin back into production. all well and good but hardly compares to some of the larger manufacturers, of various goods, who just shut the shop, sack everyone then say that they can get it made cheaper in china. this is not the case here according to the media statements so far. let's hope it stays that way.

this GA8 project started with a leg up from the labour gov't of the early 90's with an industry R&D grant that GA had to match with money of its own that it made from building its cropdusters. GA is a private campany owned by a few private share holders that can do what they think is in the best interest of their own company. Senoir pollies of alomost every ilk has visited the company over the years,and thsi only resulted in promises from Big Kim, who got flogged, and the removal of Industry R&D by the Coalition. One of the co-founders of the company said that the illustrious DS himself ( not a pollie, but a very good mate of John Howard's) told him that he was wasting his time trying to compete with the americans because they had the game sewn up. This was from the Buy Australian champion himself.

I hardly think they will take your advice at this stage seeing you have never put one cent into the company.

Mahindra and Mahindra have bought all sorts of (mainly manufacturing) comapnies where they see a good product with great potential, but a company without the financial legs to get the essential R&D done, and the subsequent marketing and promotion on a global basis. GA is a mum and dad company that has well out grown the mum and dad, and son and daughter, and daughter in law etc..etc...method of management and needs something such as this to let it reach its full potential.

Those that I know there are of mixed feelings for many reasons but all agree that this SHOULD mark the beginning of a big step, and positive, forward for the company. I hope for their sake it does, and the mum and dad (and the kiddies) have to allow some of the non family talent to help manage the company in a way that is positive and productive. Again we will see. the Turbine developement has been mooted for years and much initial work was done in the late 90's/early 00's, but has been crushingly slow due to the sheer scale of the costs associated with it and the determined attitude to go it alone by senior management. The support that comes with a major company like M&M (ha ha m&m) should at least get this much needed project rolling.

This is an interesting development in the Australian aerospace industry, and methinks we have not seen that last of major foreign investment in this field. While we all keep shopping at discount houses and let our indigenous companys starve while we rush off to buy new cessnas we have no right to start stoning whomever we have the hates on at the moment. take your redneck blinkers off and look for the real answers, not just the politically convenient ones.

Many of those in CASA (Central Office that is ) are highly motivated to see GA do well, but making a company successful is not their mandate. impartial attitude to safety (supposedly) is. There are also within CASA who would not lift a finger or do one extra minute of effort to save GA if it was going under, this has been stated by some who say that they are under no economic imperative, GA will just have to keep the dollars churning while they take their full amount of time scrutininizing every aspect of the certification and manufacturing process in its turn while they look after the airlines. There were also some malicious types who did not wish GA well, though they seem to have left the building. all except one jumped up little jerk who believes that he is the world oracle about certification and Fxxxxt Txxt Exxxxxxxxxg. he has almost broken the company all by himself. the smug little weasel. I am not surprised that he has no friends, inside or out of the Authority, many will know of whom i speak.

Enough for now, can't wait to see the next Media release from GA ro MA or what ever they will be called now.

Off to work time

[aeromariner]

All a bit emotive me thinks. There was a lot of Government money put in, and there was a lot of private money put in .... it isn't just a few shareholders. These are the stakeholders, and if the outcome has been a success for them (by whatever criteria) we shall see more enterprises try. And vice versa ... time will tell

[Brian Abraham]

From Aviation International News

Mahindra & Mahindra (M&M) of India acquired a 75.1-percent stake each in Australia’s Aerostaff Australia (AA) and Gippsland Aeronautics (GA) last week. Mahindra Systech president and M&M board member Hemant Luthra told AIN, “These acquisitions have been made under subsidiary Mahindra Aerospace with a total commitment of approximately $37.4 million over the next five years. We will retain the existing managements of GA and AA, securing the services of the founders who developed this technology.” The company had earlier invested $10 million in Mahindra Aerospace’s facility in the south India city of Mallur, which it expects to be ready by July. “We will manufacture aircraft for the two- to 20-seat market, both piston-powered and turboprop, and will price them competitively,” Luthra said. Gippsland’s product portfolio includes the GA200C agricultural aircraft, eight-seat GA8 Airvan and an 18-seat turboprop. The portfolio will also include the N5, a five-seat aircraft that is being jointly developed by Mahindra with India’s National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL). The company expects production of aircraft to begin by 2011. Aerostaff Australia is an aircraft component and assemblies manufacturer for large aerospace OEMs.

[Andy_RR]

Andy RR, agree with much in your response, however I believe that you may be off the mark regarding low wage engineering in this instance.


Fanny, I base this on my own personal experience working on a high-technology (not-IT) product with a bunch of Indian engineers, many of them IIT grads. Some were really bright but most lacked a real-world easy familiarity with the modern "machinery" of life that allowed them to analyze engineering problems quickly and accurately - what I would term good engineering judgement

A gross generalization perhaps, but IME whereas many "western" engineers would have grown up tinkering with stuff in the garage on weekends, even a familiarity with domestic gadgets like dishwashers, microwaves and vacuum cleaners, Indians seemed (to me) to live generally spartan lives, spend all their (very little) spare time going to the temple and with other long-standing family traditions. Almost none of them would get involved in DIY-type stuff.

I'm sure this will change with time and generations and that you can find contradictory examples (so can I) but this was my experience after working in India with them for a couple of years.

A

[VH-XXX]

Once the original design work and templating has been done - (note that they are retaining those that started the company for now) the rest just becomes grunt work, so in all honesty they won't need the "tinkering" background for the company to be successful or profitable. I note Gippy Aero seemingly went through this process in it's early days as they employed many talented locals with aviation backgrounds to develop the components and procedures and now all that is left is low skilled process worker type jobs ( or at least so it would seem from an outsiders perspective ) Great effort by the likes of Morgan and White etc who have possibly made a stack of cash!

[tio540]

Australia will continue to loose industry to foreign owners, and be uncompetative, as long as our population assumes holidays are a national sport. Finish school, take a year off and explore the world. Take a sicky here and there. Long service leave. The US only has 2 weeks annual leave.

We cannot expect to be competitive when we all are on holiday. We now import beef into Australia, and physically make very little.

The newest building in most cities in Australia is Centrelink.

[the wizard of auz]

We now import beef into Australia
Mainly because we can do it cheaper than selling home grown meat on the domestic market. we are actually one of the worlds biggest exporters of beef.
Why sell beef to the local market for less than you can get for it overseas?

[tio540]

Why sell beef to the local market for less than you can get for it overseas?


Good point. We export our gas reserves for 2 cents a litre, and you pay 80 cents at the pump. You can buy an Australian made car for less in the US. Both are subsidised by the taxpayer to boot. There is pressure to import bananas from Asia and our orange trees were bulldozed some time ago.

[Andy_RR]

Another weird Australian import/export data point:

A foundry I was talking to said they could (and did) buy Australian zircon sand cheaper from the US, including import and shipping chargers, than any Australian supplier.

Work that one out!

IMO most of the anomalies and disincentives are due to government and bureaucratic meddling, not to mention corporate tax rates that a well above global averages. Given that government has an appalling track record in the efficient use of capital as well as amazing incompetence in regulation (check out the recent successes of ASIC! :rolleyes:) they could do better to leave well alone and let the business community get on with it.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Blundstone moved to India for the exact same reason. Aussie leather is cheaper in India than here.

[tio540]

There is an item that I buy that retails for $1500 Aus. The retailer tells me it is the conversion between the Aus and Us dollar. I can buy it direct from the US for $299 US plus postage. Delivered it is $499 US. So someone is making $1000 Aus.

Australians are being robbed somewhere, and I don't believe it is the US. Australian wholesalers have their hand in the till.

David Clarke head sets that sold for $1100 in Aus were recently available in the US for $550 Aus plus $50 postage. The trough is big, and there are many heads in it. Where is the ACCC?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

TIO, you just have to look at magazine prices at the newsagents compared to taking the time and starting a subscription for same. Three times that cost is not too outragious for the local newsagents:yuk:

Its not just aviation...its everywhere! Protectionism by a different name!

[OZBUSDRIVER]

To FannyPhelan, I must take issue wrt the investment incentive of the Hawke/Keating government....I recollect this was manipulated to actually sit on worthwhile developments to ensure maximum return on the subsidy. It may have been a "Good Thing" with GA but general industry wide there were serious ripoffs by "investors" putting money into any R&D....provided it didn't make any money out of the development. Spend a $100 and get $150 back If the device wasn't going to return more than 50% on investment, it was sat on.

[aeromariner]

So the message that comes out here is that provided some Mug is prepared to put up the cash, be it Government or Private (and lose said money) it's OK because aeroplanes are being built. This is exactly what is wrong with the industry. The aircraft design industry will not progress until those inside it (and especially those outside it) are convinced that there is money in it. If you argue the "national good" ( whatever that is) then probably the Gippy Mod of the PA31 has contributed more to moving people around in Australia than the Airvan ever did

[prophead123]

I worked at gippies as an assembler and in my opinion the indians are well come to it, the Airvan is a **** box ...good luck to them .by the way george and his mate have been well supported by the Victorian tax payer ,they have paid for every thing ,hangars ,staff salarys etc etc :\
for crying out loud ,next time you see one have a good look at the fuse ,Ive seen boats built better than it ...good ridence :D

[Andy_RR]

Good-oh Prophead! You can't spell or punctuate, but you've convinced me that you too can build a business from nothing to create an internationally successful product even with a load of taxpayer help. 'Cause you've done it, haven't you? You'd know it was piss-easy and you'll also be able to tell us why there's loads of these businesses thriving on every street corner and that red-tape and bureaucratic bungling never gets in the road of such economic progress. Of course you can! ...and we'll believe every word.

not!

[boofhead]

Yeah Prophead, I have flown the Airvan and it is a great airplane, as good or better than any other out there so far as the quality of the airframe is concerned. I have not seen any complaints about reliability?
No light airplane is perfect, but certification generally assures that someone has looked at the design and production to be reasonably sure it meets required specs. Are you suggesting this is not the case with the Airvan?

[aeromariner]

What don't you like about the fuselage prophead? I'm curious as to which angle you are coming from? Rivets overdriven? matched drilling?

[Wally Mk2]

Interesting airframe the 'van' Was watching one today as it danced around on it's wheels trying not to get flipped over in the strong winds & dust storm that hit Vic this arvo. The 'finish' on the bird was agricultural to say the least, reminded me of the Victa Air tourer, practicable but not pretty:) Still I guess they do the job & such an airframe gives the wannabees of the world a chance to steer round a plane with the column sticking out from the floor:ok:
As for the Co being sold to an OS Co? Shame really but it's fair game these days for anyone to buy anything from anywhere, the world is indeed small & at times spinning backwards!.

Wmk2