EK Crew fatigue

[flareflyer]

I see an increasing number of asr's due to fatigue..........

Maybe people start being very tired.......

Flare

[flaphandlemover]

start?...
they are!!!!
but until now, they pushed it... not anymore...
enough is enough....

[Marooned]

TCTC has no sympathy for the 'lazy' pilots/crew and thinks he can get even more out of us according to a quote from a recent management meeting... seriously!

We have to look after ourselves... no job, least of all EK, is worth getting ill or worse having a career ending incident or accident for. The EK clinic know the effect it is having physically and mentally... it is taking its toll.

No other airline does the pattern/hour combinations we're doing. We are the lab rats in the sad new world of the greed fueled, inadequately regulated airline industry.

They couldn't give a rats a**se about us. FUEK :zzz:

[Brutus 5]

A while ago there was a very proud statement about some or other Prof from Nasa that did a study about fatigue. I just want to know if that study was done when the hours flown was average of about 75. Will they be prepared to get that same Prof back again for another study now that the average hours went up to 90? Just wondering!!!!!!!:confused:

[climbtofl410]

ek.......................

[nakbin330]

"No other airline does the pattern/hour combinations we're doing. We are the lab rats in the sad new world of the greed fueled, inadequately regulated airline industry" .... Marooned.

Of course there are other airlines who fly their crews hard, try talking to some KAL, EVA, CAL, Air China, etc crews. 1000 hours a year, plus there is always speculation and rumour that the limit will be raised to 1200 hours a year.

The KAL 744 and 777 crews typically spend up to 120 a month in the aircraft to accumulate 80 hours stick time.

I stand to be corrected though ....

[doubleu-anker]

About time too!

What are the "authorities" doing about all this? Being a third world country it must have an ICAO representative in residence, surely.

Maybe they are all in the pocket of EK.

[fractional]

it must have an ICAO representative in residence, surelyIt doesn't! And if it did, it would be just "useless". Civil aviation authorities are (not) generally independent institutions and follow their own rules based on ICAO recommendations but suited to the political elite of their country. Therefore, little (or no) effect. Just look at the UN General Assembly or the Security Council and see how much (sense or justice) do you get out of it.
EASA (ex-JAA) is the first cross-border institution, but allows individual countries to change some of the regulations to suit their operators.
IOSA membership is voluntary, expensive, pretigious and it works in most cases. FAA serves mainly the USA and screens countries abilities on safety to deter possible problems into the USA.
If regulations are being followed against the operators' own Ops Manual, ramp checkers won't take any action.
A CAA can come with 1400 (hope never) hours and this won't be challenged by anyone else if specified in the approved Ops Manual.

[QCM]

...anyway my EK friend told me that Ed D......n last mail was threatenig him and his colleagues to be invited to the Chief Pilot or even Civil Aviation office if he didn't sign his...master CFP...

What a lack of situation awareness,treating these guys like kids scared by the teacher,when for example my friend was just back from a couple of night flights from India,flying every month aroud 90+ hours...carrying part of the existence of ths company on his shoulders with all other guys...
but threatened to be called out to the office for a missing signature,when EGT himself was spreading the word that if office copy was signed it was enough...

The guys are exhausted but some sarcastic horses keep treating them like unresponsible boys...:*:eek:
Lost the sense of reality...no future for that kind of guy...:=

[mini cooper]

So does this mean that we don't have to sign the office copy? Ho ho ho Merry Christmas

[frankie777]

I am presently running at 104+ hours in 28 days which is clearly only made legal by factoring and so becomes 96 hours in 28. Is this safe? I dont think so and yet our management are quite happy to continue rostering us to these unsafe levels. When this was happening on the A345 a few years ago the guys filed ASR after ASR and eventually got the GCAA involved. Sometime after this the pilots hours reduced. So now it is the turn of the 777 to experience the delights of EK lack of crew and rostering unsafe work practices.
My question is. If you were involved in an incident/accident in a country such as the UK what is the situation re factoring and the 28 day limit. I am pretty certain that the UK CAA does not recognise factoring and therefore when the subsequent accident report is published it will be shown that you were operating in breach of JAA regulations. It may be the case that by operating in a non uk registered aircraft in the UK you are not subject to the same rules. Is this the case?
Earlier in this thread someone asked "Are pilots getting fatigued". Answer. A definate yes. I for one intend for 2010 to file fatigue ASR's and sign off fatigued if necessary as this situation cannot be allowed to continue unless EK wants to end up paying the price that all airlines that have ignored safety end up in. :ugh:

[jumbo1]

Frankie,
Why don't you write or email the DGCA here and ask them if 104 hours unfactored is legal? I think you might be surprised by the answer.....

[IXNAT]

Frankie, you are one hundred per cent correct. Management can even say that they are looking into the fatigue issue, our hours will reduce, you will get relief, blah blah. None of us will see any change until they reduce the overtime threshold. That is when we will actually see any change.

[chinapilot744]

Whilst I understand that things are not as good in EK as they were, you guys are still better off than lots. Come to China and fly.
22/23 hour duty, 2 or 3 sector days are legal and the normal. Then at the end we are often expected to sit around at an airport for 3 hrs or so before a 2/3hr economy flight within China back to homebase I frequently can be on the go for nearly 30 hrs.
Believe me there is always someone worse off.!!

[mini cooper]

Latest complete cr*p from the office: cabin crew are not allowed to 'rest' on the flight deck (reports coming from briefing that pilots allow it)!! Tehy are also threatening punishable action if crew are allowed to do so!! Another wedge between us!!
So now if tired / fatigued you have to right an ASR - this will keep Tim CLark happy!! How can he really congratulate us for acheiving 40,000 ASRs - the man and the rest of them in the office are on planet ZARK, what a load of prats.

[5star]

Check your mailbox and read the latest Xmas message from our training donkey MM. about SEP :yuk:
Is there a way to block these emails in Notes? I don't want to read their cr@p any more. :mad:

[PositiveRate876]

Would you rather review stale ASRs for two hours:yuk:, or go on a roller coaster ride with the girls? :ok:

I think it's a great idea. The last time they've done it I was afraid of flying for 2 months though. :eek:

[5star]

I have nothing against more intense CRM with CC. :ok:
It's the tone/language these muppets use. I don't want a barking dog at my doorstep. What's next : push-ups? :ugh:

[flareflyer]

I just read the mail from TC about having reached the 40.000 ASR.........
is he teasing us?????

Flare

[fractional]

Computer typo caused Emirates jet's tail-strike.
Pilot error blamed for Emirates near disaster at Melbourne Airport | AVIATION-NEWS (http://www.aviationnews.eu/2009/12/19/pilot-error-blamed-for-emirates-near-disaster-at-melbourne-airport/)
The captain and first officer both had a 30 hour break since their previous flight, but an earlier report said the captain had only slept for 3 1/2 out of the previous 24 hours.

"We have not at this stage seen anything that would lead us to the view that fatigue is a significant contributor to this," Mr Dolan told reporters in Canberra this morning.
Easy to judge afterwards...

[gotoindia]

After a few weeks of distractions, the number one issue at EK today is crew fatigue.

At least now it can be reported directly to the GCAA via their website, as has been discussed on another thread.

I love the commentary inserted into each ASR "well, during the winter months, when you have strong headwinds, and 10-11 hours block times, and it's the middle of the night, we get a lot of fatigue reports, so we'll look into it as soon as winter is over."

It's mind boggling to me that TC would allow a $327 million A380 with 499 pax onboard to be operated on an 10+ hour sector in the middle of the night with only 2 crew.

After all, isn't it his signature on the safety policy posted in all the elevators at EGHQ?

[Kamelchaser]

9 out of 97 ASRs for the last week of Dec are fatigue related. A very worrying trend.

[mensaboy]

The only way to get these crazy rostering practices and illegal variations stopped, is to file fatigue related ASR's.

There are zero repercussions for filing a fatigue ASR and you don't even have to fill out the online fatigue management questionnaire if you don't feel like it. I've never been questioned why I don't spend an hour filling out the stupid thing.

And if you request it, you can get 5 days off without question.

At a normal airline, pilots would be filing fatigue ASR's much more frequently, but the bar has been set so low here, it's almost as if we EXPECT to be fatigued when we are landing at 0600 after being awake for 15 hours.

As I mentioned earlier, not only are the number of ASR's important, but the percentage of Fatigue related ASR's as compared to other ASR's is also considered. In other words, we must stop filing ASR's that are not required according to the FOM. As a 'cover your ass' technique, mention whatever occured on the VR, so no one can suggest you are trying to cover up some event. It is sad that we have to think that way, but EK has instilled that in us.

Fatigue related ASR's are the ONLY avenue of recourse at this company. Our bosses have clearly indicated they don't believe Rostering, crazy pairings, variations and manning levels are a safety issue. They cannot be expected to think it might be a health issue either, that is about a half century away for this lot.

[IXNAT]

Mensa, your world view may be a bit skewed, but your opinions and analysis on the situations here are spot on on on. Keep it up (the opinions that is):ok::ok:

[harry the cod]

I agree

STOP filing ASR's for being 'almost' unstable.
STOP filing ASR's for 253kts passing 4900'.
STOP filing ASR's just because Medlink was called.
STOP filing ASR's because you exited the runway at a turn off not briefed.
STOP filing ASR's because Mumbai ignored you on HF. You were CPDLC!

Use the system for what it was designed for. If not, cross out the ASR title and scroll ACR instead. Do I really need to spell it out?

Harry

[Saltaire]

Some good points on ASR's,

To my mind every PVG and ICN variation with two pilots flying through the night, is worthy of an ASR. I can't see how it's not a safety hazard. I'm sure there are others but those two come to mind...

We all know the winds are strong this time of year, we know it's seasonal. The standard paraphasing rhetoric each week, so how about doing something about it? :ugh:

Keep those fatigue ASR's coming, it's our professional obligation.

[alwayzinit]

Well I am one of the lucky ones NOT flying 90+ hours each month (not including the 20+hours in the bunk on ULR stuff.). However I am totally fooked just got back for far east having been in IAH 3 days before that.

I have been at this game for 25+ years both Mil and Civil and have NEVER been this tired.

Took my Kids to school today went back to bed and slept until 11am.............and still feel like cr@p. I am very lucky that my Mrs is aware of the problems we face and not one of the " you just sit there" club.

Before the lastest trip I had had a really good nights kip but still NEEDED to grab some controlled rest. The return was horrid.

Pen will be touching paper in future.

[lowstandard]

I guess the seasonal headwinds are what AS is alluding to when he pasted a copy of the ATW article on common sense on the portal.

Common sense tells me not to go into discretion when I am making small errors before departure, especially data entry.

Common sense tells me to bump up the CI to 140 instead of leaving it at 10 (AS directive to dispatch not to increase it for FDP "dont worry, they will go into discretion).

Common sense tells me not all ASR's are making it past somebody's desk to the GCAA.

Common sense also tells me that if a CC needs a rest because they have to go into discretion, they will be allowed to rest in the flightdeck. I dare anyone to tell me to my face I cant do that.

Common sense also tells me holding in DXB at 2345 is forseen and 6 mins of cont fuel with alt fuel wont cut it when holding for 30mins.

AS, you really should earn your stripes and some respect here and do some line flying for a few months. It not like the old company chap.

[flareflyer]

Will the company allow us to submit any ASR stright to GCAA?:}

Interesting times ahead.....

[GMDS]

Why don't you ask yourself, fareflyer?
I did and got the expected answer:
"No need to go direct. We send all reports there anyway, uncensored. So stick to normal procedure!"
Now up to you to believe it or not ......

Nothing will change anyway until there is a serious incident during a variation flight or with captains discretion exerced. But first this captain will be fried.

Some years in this industry simply take away any hope for basic human common sense.

[EFC 3 DAYS]

The lower management folk at EK are covering their collective @r$e$ by stating that the reason pilots are calling fatigued, filing fatigue ASRs and generally pi$$ed off is because same said pilots have a "POLITICAL AGENDA" against the company.
They are saying that these reports etc are due to the fact that the pilots have to fly more for less and that there was no bonus paid etc, etc. You will start hearing this term "POLITICAL AGENDA" more and more at EK as lower management continue to hang on this catchphrase, which for now is accepted by upper management as the reason pilots are tired.

[alwayzinit]

This "Collective Action" must have been organised the same "Pilots Association" as quoted in the recent LOSA report?:ugh:

[Taylor01]

Exactly...I didn't want to say it but it will take an accident then it will really hit the fan... When will they learn??????:D

[IXNAT]

And anyone with any "Common Sense" will realise that rostering back side of the clock Asian trips and the return home, after three nights of disrupted sleep patterns, for 10+ hours with no aumentation or relief, is in fact a fatigue and safety hazard. Political agenda my arse. The phrase "Common Sense" is going to bite them in their said arse. HOW ABOUT SCHEDULING WITH COMMON SENSE..................:\ I'm sorry, it's just the winds this time of the year.:mad:

[trimotor]

"It's just the winds this time of year...and we're buggered if we're going to do anything about it...even though it's the same every year"

[mensaboy]

Can someone explain to me how a pilot who got 3.5 hours sleep in 24 hours, and flew 98 hours in the preceding 30 days is not considered fatigued? I realize TCAS, ED and the propaganda machine were in action long before the preliminary report about the MEL accident was released but still...

Now keep in mind that EK does not take into account the 2+15 hour pickup time prior to EACH departure, nor do they consider even 1 minute after 'chocks-on' , nor any groundschool, SEP, simulators or the ever present Pelesys as duty time. Plus the fact that rosters change frequently and for Airbus guys in particular, the crazy rosters are fatiguing at even 80 hours a month. Hell, they are still shoving crew into hotels like in Nairobi, where proper rest in often unattainable!

When TCAS matter of factly stated during my Commanders propaganda meeting that the ATSB did not view fatigue as an issue (shortly after he stated that the ATSB was still investigating matters and nothing was yet released) it made me wonder. It seemed to me that EK was actively pursuing a pre-emptive strike against anyone who might view things differently.

It is my belief that fatigue and mixed fleet flying on the Airbus (which is definitely more challenging than our Boeing types), were 2 factors in that accident.

How do 2 pilots, with good records and experience, miss something as seemingly obvious as a 100 tonne difference in weight with the associated lower speeds and power settings? Not to mention that the 2 augmenting pilots also were unaware of this discrepancy. (No slag on any of the 4 pilots intended)

If anyone believes they are so good that something like this cannot happen to them, then they are sadly mistaken especially considering present fatigue levels at EK. In all likelihood, a similar event will repeat or something traumatic will happen to 2 pilots 'in the heat of the moment', such as a slow response to an adverse flight condition (usually takeoff or landing) and once again EK will defend their indefensible position that Fatigue is not an issue at EK.

Sorry to be so long-winded WK, I can't help myself at times. The fatigue problem and rostering debacle at EK are a frickin big issue to me.

[797]

Suggestions / Complaints (http://www.gcaa.ae/en/pages/SuggestionsComplaints.aspx)

[White Knight]

Fatigue is an issue for all of us Mensa - however if you do insist on flying and not pulling yourself off the flight then it's up to YOU to make damn sure that you follow the SOPS.. You are right that something could happen to any one of us - but follow the damn book:rolleyes: It's their trainset - I drive it that way and cover myself...

A loadsheet confirmation and MEL would NOT have happened, 100 tonnes difference or not - simple as that from various conversations I've had!! Including with said skipper - 'nuff said??

Neither do I recall my last airline- or the one before counting the time that I got into my car outside my house before setting off to work as Duty Time, maybe up to 180 mins before STD depending on the traffic!! As for loads of roster changes - well Mensa you must have p1ssed someone off in crew control:ugh::ugh:

[theidler]

Can someone explain to me how a pilot who got 3.5 hours sleep in 24 hours, and flew 98 hours in the preceding 30 days is not considered fatigued?

Assuming he did get 3.5 hours sleep in the 24 hours before the flight, is this necessarily the fault of EK? In fact it was a 37.5 hour layover, not 24 hours as is implied each time this statement is rolled out. How much sleep did he get on the whole layover and how did he plan his rest, I wonder?

MEL/406 is a trip I'm quite happy to do because its a quick way of knocking up 28 hours credit with a relatively short recovery time, no more recovery needed than for a night turnaround to India. I recollect that it was this pilots 3rd trip of this type within the mentioned 98 hours in 30 days. An easy 84 hours I reckon. There are trips and chains of duties with potential for accumulative fatigue issues at this airline, such as two crew back from China, AKL/CHC and all annexe flights. His sequence of flights that month was not particularly one of them.

Fatigue management is the responsibility of the crew member as well as the company. I notice that some crew-members treat layovers as a social and/or extreme activity extravaganza when resting would be more appropriate. This is an industry thing and not specific to this airline.

How do 2 pilots, with good records and experience, miss something as seemingly obvious as a 100 tonne difference in weight with the associated lower speeds and power settings?

Because they didn't follow Standard Operating Procedures.

A loadsheet confirmation and MEL would NOT have happened, 100 tonnes difference or not...

For some reason SOPs went out of the window. The flight left 12 minutes early by the way.:rolleyes:

[GlueBall]

:ooh: It may take several more years, or another serious incident, before fatigue becomes the No.1 safety issue. Meanwhile, if you're still feeling tired or fatigued after inadequate rest, use max thrust takeoff. Stay alive.

[Capt Roo]

Fatigue, is kinda like credit card debt. If you are responsible and pay off your total balance every month (get adequate rest after every flight), there is very little downside. this is of course, is the responsibility of the people who build rosters.

IF on the other hand, you behave like my daughter's mates and max out your plastic every month on retail therapy and then only pay the minimum balance, well you're cruisin' for a bruisin'.

Sounds like Emirates rostering practices are like a flight attendant at the January sales. Let's rack up the charges and worry about how to pay them later.

Good luck lads, be careful out there.

[mensaboy]

The following is a quote from WhiteKnight, the Champion of Professional Pilots.

''however if you do insist on flying and not pulling yourself off the flight then it's up to YOU to make damn sure that you follow the SOPS..''

WOW........apparently if you are fatigued then things will fall into place provided you somehow manage to follow SOP's. No need to consider that you might unwillingly not follow SOP's based upon the fact that you are FATIGUED! This statement is directly out of the mouths of our illustrious management, that is how absurd it is.

In direct response to you WhiteKnight;

Like you, I do follow SOP's because they can save my ass on any given flight and conformity to certain protocols in aviation are essential and wise.

I was unaware that the MEL crew did not follow SOP's, since the preliminary report was only recently released and it said NOTHING about the pilots not following SOP's. But then again, you stated (truthfully or not) that you had various conversations with 'said skipper' and he admitted to NOT following SOP's.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the ATSB and EK would be loudly repeating such an acknowledgement? And isn't it interesting that he would tell YOU this fact, yet apparently he did not say the same thing to the ATSB or EK ? Perhaps I need a few lunch dates with ED to be more privy to information that apparently is not available to the rest of us minions.

I'm not saying those pilots did or did not, follow the SOP's, only that I am unaware of any information that confirms this hypothesis. Anyhow, even if the SOP's were followed and they were completely effective, then why were they changed after this accident? Either the SOP's were adequate, or they were not.

You also stated that Fatigue is an issue for all of us (yourself included) and we are responsible for pulling ourselves off a flight if required, so I have to ask the question ''have you ever called in Fatigued or pulled yourself off a flight?

It is extremely naive or downright deceptive to suggest that this is an easy undertaking when we all know the subtle and not-so-subtle pressures put on pilots..... to just do the damn flight!

Then you go on to state that none of your previous airlines counted the time you were in your car going to work as Duty Time. What does that have to do with my post? I never suggested that our drive to work should be counted as Duty Time but rather that I typically 'Sign-In at work'..... at 1 hour and 50 minutes before ETD, yet we are only credited for 1 hour.

If a commuting pilot CHOOSES to live far from work, then that is his choice and he obviously takes into account his typical roster and reaches the conclusion that he will not be fatigued. Life at EK is not at all the same. We fly crazy rosters, illegal 'variation' pairings and much more.

At least you didn't make up more nonsense about the post flight duties, SEP, ground school training and simulators, which presumably you agree are not fair either.

Using simple math (and some assumptions I agree), it is easy to work out how much 'free' work the company gets from us each month. It is not the 'free' time they get from us that angers me, but the cumulative Fatigue that is not taken into account.

Assuming 50 minutes extra work at the beginning of each pairing and 30 minutes post-pairing and estimating 3 turns and 5 layovers a month... here are the numbers. (Agreeably, Boeing skeds are likely about 75% of these numbers)

-3 Turns equates to 240 minutes at work without compensation. (3x80)
-5 layovers equates to 700 extra minutes at work (using only an extra hour of work on the return sector) (5x80) + (5x60)
So, a typical month means 940 extra minutes that is not calculated in the Fatigue models.

This is roughly 15 hours Duty Time for a pilot, which equates to roughly 30 hours work for someone in a normal job. This is equivalent to almost 4 days work/month for a normal job which is not taken into consideration for Fatigue.

I won't even get into the recent 15% increase in our work hours (92 hours before OT) without compensation because this discussion if only referring to Fatigue.

Talk to ANYONE, regarding pilot work hours and unless they are a pilot or the spouse of a pilot, they will not understand these issues. I am surprised that you, WhiteKnight, do not understand them either.

In the past few weeks, you have made posts gloating about your assigned Leave (remember calling the whingers here on Pprune, 'girls' for not getting what we bid for?)

And you periodically add into your posts that you are not complicite with management mistruths, yet you are the first person to regurgitate their propanganda.

Now you are seemingly quick to disparage our fellow colleagues on the ill-fated MEL flight, even though you are apparently a good friend of the 'said skipper'.

Admittedly, I don't understand you WhiteKnight. I might be completely wrong and hopefully I am, but it appears you are the epitome of exactly what is wrong with this profession. Someone who willingly believes the BS from upper management, someone who is quick to highlight his own good fortune in the face of those who are less fortunate and someone who takes things personally if someone holds a different POV.

I suspect if I never mentioned my disgust with GWB, you would have read my posts with a more open mind. After reading a few of your posts regarding the IRA and such, I have categorized you based on what you post.

I openly admit that my opinions regarding certain world-wide affairs are not exactly the mainstream line-of-thought and perhaps my views on such matters might be a little 'askew', but other than that, there is no doubt that EK has pushed things far beyond the envelope of what are reasonable flight time duties. You choose to slag me at every opportunity, even though you quite often state that 'in essence' you agree with what I post. I just don't understand someone like you, but I promise to try.

Yeah fine, perhaps I am getting more cynical, but my goodness..... shouldn't a pilot with world-wide flying experience have certain advantages when it comes to deciphering propaganda, be more compassionate towards others and understand the realities of this world?

[jumbo1]

Very good post Mensa....

[White Knight]

Mensa - I couldn't give a stuff what you think about me - I just happen to disagree with you about many things.. You could spend your days busy calculating how much 'free work' the company gets out of us - or you could try enjoying life... We all signed on the dotted line after all... Some things we can fight, some we can't - choose your battles here:{ Duty time is a loser so get over it..

As for fatigue - well, that's a different thing for everyone isn't it? What might be a tiring trip for you might not be for me!! I most certainly would not operate if I'm fatigued (not the same as being tired 'cos it's 3am) And of course there's all the moaning about the 'back of the clock' - as I said you signed the dotted line and a little research shows that EK is NOT a 7am - 10pm airline:rolleyes:
To answer your question 'NO' I haven't pulled myself off a flight due to fatigue but you can rest assured that I will if I have to..

As for MEL - well the SOP infringement is brought up at various recurrent groundschools now you know, that simple thing called the loadsheet confirmation procedure.. Whilst it's sad to see two good guys lose their jobs at the same time I like to know I can put my family members on any EK flight and know that they'll get to their destination safely! I really don't think that's too much to ask is it? Not disparaging anyone but they screwed up!!
I state truthfully - does that help you?

Management mistruths?? Lost on this... I can't stand our management therefore I ignore what they have to say..

Gloating about leave? It's called having a little fun but I'm not sure that you would actually understand that as you seem to spend your spare time calculating the 4.12398 days that we give for free every month.. Personally I couldn't care less whether or not I get peak leave - if I don't I still take my kids out of school for 3 weeks.
Calling you all 'girls' - oh well, sorry if that got your gusset in a twist but it's a little English humour....

Haha - my 1 post mentioning those IRA sick nutters and you categorise me:D However you did spout off about the US many many times so I do place you in the left wing socialistic side off life. If that's true we'll always disagree as I'm somewhat on the right of the political spectrum...
I don't mind anyone having a different view to mine - just if you are going to whinge or cry about things constantly then DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT or shut up:E

Sunny side up:E

[Trader]

Don't see him justifying commuting at all--perhaps you should read the post carefully if you're going to jump on his back!! He wrote that if a pilot 'decides' to commute he has to consider fatigue issues. Simple.

[IXNAT]

You guys keep saying you signed on the "dotted line". Well I guess I did to. I didn't sign up for 90 plus hours a month, I didn't sign up for only seven days off in a row, I didn't sign up for no longevity pay raise, I didn't sign up for paying for part of my utilities....need I go on. WK and others, you ok with the 15% pay loss for no productivity pay? "We're so proud of always giving our employees a bonus from the very beginning." And as I have stated before...this from an airline that hasn't lost one red dirham!

We used to be able to get time off we needed for commuting, recovering, playing whatever. That's what the recruiters implied and sold.

"Oh and here are these shiney new aircraft. And guess what you will most likely be in the LHS in say three years or maybe a bit more." How's that three year command thingy working out for most guys?

Whether it matters, I can't disagree more with Mensa's political views and rants....but I think he's got it well nailed with his assesment of life around here, IMHO.

Must be the winds this time of year. "Common sense" would dictate such.

[fatbus]

"We used to be able to get time off we needed for commuting" What?




That was laugh

[PorkKnuckle]

if you do insist on flying and not pulling yourself off the flight then it's up to YOU

WK, I think he's saying if you want to pull yourself off after a flight, it's YOUR OWN responsibility.

Perhaps there's a message about you in that!

[White Knight]

PK - If you want to call me a w@nker then have the balls to come and say it to my face:rolleyes::rolleyes: Although I bet you won't:E

IXNAT - no I'm not happy about losing the productivity pay, but then again I don't think we had overtime when I joined so it came and went! However it's not in the contract is it?
I fully agree with the DEWA bills being a breach of contract, and the no 3% increment last year. Like I said though - 'Pick your battles, the ones you can win' otherwise you are just wasting time and energy.. It's the Middle East - did you not realise that it's not the same as back home? Maybe some people should do a bit of research before they sign the dotted line heh?

Keep smiling girls:}

[PorkKnuckle]

Well okay, WK.

Will you be waiting down at the Dubai Ladies Club then.....??? Is it handbags at 20 feet?

Why so serious WK? Did I hit a nerve? As you said, it's all just "called having a little fun"!!

[donpizmeov]

For the record, overtime was introduced in the 90's and started at AED460 (for a capt)per hour for all time flown over 84hrs. The flight time was reduced to 78hrs in 2003 (and overtime increased to AED525 for a capt in 2004), but we were no longer paid for leave, standby, reserve, sims, min block time of 3.5hs etc etc, this worked out to about 18% pay cut, but was sold by the company as being pay neutral. Flight per hour pay was also introduced in 2004 to limit basic pay increases, and hence lower pension and bonus payouts. So Volervine and IXNAT we had already had a pay cut before you joined, and a search of this forum will show much was written about commands being screwed and pay being cut, hours being factored and min days off only being given before you both joined.

Nothing has changed the shaftings are just continuing.

The Don

[Praise Jebus]

I won't even get into the recent 15% increase in our work hours (92 hours before OT) without compensation because this discussion if only referring to Fatigue

Actually I would contest that the new overtime target and fatigue are related. I am sure the bosses believe you only now complain about fatigue because you no longer get paid for more flying. They believe, you found 90 hour months ok when you got 18hrs of overtime, but no longer acceptable now you don't. As such the fatigue chestnut will not be taken seriously.

[SOPS]

But Praise, I was NEVER rostered more than 78 hours under the old scheme...as soon as the threshold was changed to 92...gues what 92 hours every month...so it is fatigue related

[CAVnotOK]

The odd month of 90hrs would be fine if you are being paid the productivity pay. However, 90+ hours every month is of course going to be more fatiguing.

Anyone who says otherwise has simply lost their marbles. On the other hand, being paid the extra coin will always take away a little of the pain.

[Fellowship of the drink]

Praise,

I do believe fatigue and the overtime target ARE related. Are you that naive?

I used to be rostered 75 hrs a month CONSISTENTLY prior to the new target. A couple of months per year I may fly 85-90 hours a month and that was ok with me. One, because it paid for my Christmas expenses. Two, I had the other 10 months to recover.

Today, I get rostered 85-90 hours per month. My last four complete rosters (excluding months on annual leave and reserve) since have been in excess of 85 hours.

When an engine is run at the Red Line, it will run fine for 10-15 minutes. If management is naive enough to think that engine or in our case, pilots will carry on running at maximum continously then EK flight ops management are in for a rude shock.

[fatbus]

They got no problem replacing those that burn out, most will be higher paid and replaced by lower paid, that alone pays for training costs.
All the FO's that are bitching about upgrades would see some movement.
If you know anyone in recruiting you would know that there are no shortage of qualified pilots
Also , retain experience is not a part of the plan, they could care less

[Kamelchaser]

Not sure I agree with your (financial) logic Fatbus. It costs at least 1,000,000AED to recruit, induct, and train a new pilot. (including all the costs of resettling an entire family etc etc etc).

The difference between a 10 year Capt and a new capt can't be any more than 10,000AED a month (just guessing on that one, probably not even that much).

By my calculations that would take 8 years for the company to break even employing a new Capt (or new FO and upgrading him/her eventually) versus keeping the "old" one.

Using those figures, the current "we'll just replace them" logic just doesn't make sense to me....unless of course the sums are out of two different budgets..or it just comes down to plain stupid pig-headedness?

[White Knight]

I was having fun too PK - did you see the :E:E:E bit:ok:

[Pitch Up Authority]

WK I know of pilots in EK that refused to fly .... they were blackmailed until they resigned.