Reds to Go?

[TheSmiter]

First off, I have nothing but pride and admiration for the skill and professionalism of our premier aerobatic team. You got me and several thousand other kids into the RAF, my wee boy wants to join you ASAP, bypassing the traditional career path.

I admit it, I'm jealous.

But, let's be critical here, especially as we're in the middle of intensely 'challenging times' and the only things safe for the defence budget are marked 'To Helmand'

1. Do the Reds contribute to the Afghan campaign?
A. No
2. Do the Reds provide any military effect?
A. No

So, will the Reds be disbanded?
A. No

For one simple reason. The Red Arrows are symbolic of modern Britain, all spin and (multi-coloured) smoke and mirrors. Scratch the surface and there's nothing there. They help to create the illusion that all is well with our Armed Forces. There is nothing left - we have no navy to speak of, the air force is completely broken and we have a small fighting force in Afghanistan configured for counter-insurgency.

However, in the eyes of the 'X-Factor / Strictly' British public, disbanding the Reds would be a tangible sign that something is amiss.

So no, the Reds will live to fly another season. I hope they enjoy their tour, I know they will continue to demonstrate the ethos which made the RAF the great organisation it once was. I would just ask that they spare a thought for all those who's careers will perish on the steaming pile of Planning Round 2010.

[Justanopinion]

Just a little bit confused as to the point of your post mate? On a previous post you had a bit of a dig at the 'Reds' hoping they were remembering those on ops whilst impressing the crowds with their display.
As you seem to have been around for over 20 years in the RAF i guess you are aware that all of the team have done their fair share of time in the desert.... and some in more arduous conditions than the nimrod fleet put up with.
I think anyone with half a brain in the current forces is well aware of the cuts on the way (including the Reds) and why they should be pin pointed above others when you admit, they were instrumental in your decision to join up.

I hope the Red Arrows team have a great season and also hope they have front line seats to get back into, when their tours are over.

[Yeoman_dai]

*carefully looks around for the line attached to the massive chunk of bait*


Windup, surely?

[Tiger_mate]

Not a chance...

I once heard that said about the Berlin Wall; and 3 weeks later history was in the making. Disbanding the Reds could be the PR that the British Public need as a wake up call to were the taxpayers debt is being accumulated. In the sixties aerobatic teams were created and disbanded often, and the loss of skillset (which will always be a valid argument) did not seem to be an issue. There will be a surprising number of the public who couldnt care less about military demo anything, and whilst I personally believe disbanding the Reds would be criminal, they are not immune. It is an interesting debate.

[Bismark]

As I have said on another post....it is a disgrace that RAFAT and QCS are held alive whilst the FJ fleet is slashed. Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.

[mikip]

Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.


You mean those at top THINK! surely not

[Bob the Doc]

I was under the (probably mistaken) impression that the Reds brought more money into UK PLC than it cost to operate them.

Or is that just the party line I have been fed?!

[Bismark]

Bob,

They used the same argument for BRITANNIA but the fact is that any income derived does nothing for UK Defence. The fact is the days of using RAFAT for aircraft sales is over and why should we see real defence assets cut whilst the Reds stay flying - it is particularly galling to see the frontline FJ fleet decimated whilst RAFAT stay aloft. If the rumours are true the RAF will have a deployable strength of about 70 FJ (not total numbers) vs 9 RAFAT.

[763 jock]

If you are running a successful and profitable business you can afford to run a publicity machine. BA did this with Concorde in its heyday.

The UK is bankrupt and savings will have to be made. But, an election looms and no Labour politician has the balls to get rid of the Reds. And besides, we've just donated (borrowed) £1.5 billion to fight "climate change". No, the mission must continue.

Just keep digging.

[FCWhippingBoy]

Woh woh woh sweet child of mine ....


As I have said on another post....it is a disgrace that RAFAT and QCS are held alive whilst the FJ fleet is slashed. Some skewed thinking at the top of the RAF methinks.


Didn't QCS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) deploy to both Iraq and Afghanistan, or was that a figmant of my imagination? :ugh:

[Will Hung]

I'm not Military, but I hope you guys won't mind me posting here.

On a slight thread-creep, I was walking around a building site recently, the former RAF staff college at Bracknell. I would guess that HM government earned in excess of £ 30M for this piece of land, once numerous middle-men, agents, consultants, lawyers and friends had had their cut.

Now, the majority of development sites I seem to work on are former military, (Bracknell, Eastcote, West Drayton), or former Hospitals, or former schools.

My point is this. We are selling off the family silver wholesale, bringing in millions upon millions, yet, we are up to our nads in debt, our entire Navy can now fit in Portsmouth, our Air Force and Army have token numbers, our infrastructure is heading towards meltdown, so what are we going to do when there's no silver left to sell ? Where does all the money go ?

Keep smiling !

[newt]

If you are running a successful and profitable business you can afford to run a publicity machine. BA did this with Concorde in its heyday.

And look whats happening to BA 763jock!

Outdated amongst its competitors and nearly bust!

[tommee_hawk]

How many more cuts to the front line jet fleet are we going to have to endure to maintain things like the RAFAT and QCS? It is a disgrace.

"Bismark

By QCS I assume you are referring to 63 Sqn RAF Regt who have just returned from Op HERRICK."


The error of your assertions regarding QCS (63 Sqn RAF Regt) was more than adequately pointed out by Climebear on "another post". Posting the same comments in a different thread is surely the last vestige of the scoundrel....:)

Now, as for the Reds - that's a different issue.

[Gnd]

Split the difference, paint the Grobs???

[Gainesy]

Point of Order.
"Reds to Go?" Threads are traditionally brought up in mid-March.

Pah!, Yoof, no respect. Tradition, mumble, grump......

[merlinxx]

Go tell em G:ok:

[MAD Boom]

See, a woman is on the team for 5 minutes and look what happens.

[vecvechookattack]

1. Do the Reds contribute to the Afghan campaign?
A. Yes

2. Do the Reds provide any military effect?
A. Yes

So, will the Reds be disbanded?
A. No

[Gnd]

He's right, I saw them at the Bastion air day and the TB were well impresses!!!!!!

HOW??

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'm amazed these threads are so frequent.

We're trying to save £1.5Bn or something like that. The Reds' own website confirms that their annual cost is £6.3M. That's pennies in the grand scheme of things, and a tiny tiny drop in the ocean compared to what we'll save by binning half the Harrier force and closing Cott.

People seem to think that we should chop the Reds, and that'd save anything else from being sliced. No way, they're simply not expensive enough to save another asset.

If the Reds cost £800M a year to run, fine; but the political backlash from chopping something like the Reds, for a saving of £6.3M?

To put that in perspective, we paid £86M in MP's expenses last year. Chop their expenses, and you could run a dozen aerobatic teams! :ok:

[vecvechookattack]

Great point. Hopefully that post from 5 F 6 B will put an end to this ridiculous suggestion.

Thread closed perhaps?

[Union Jack]

To put that in perspective, we paid £86M in MP's expenses last year. Chop their expenses, and you could run a dozen aerobatic teams!

..... and bring back HM Yacht BRITANNIA ......:rolleyes:

[Tim McLelland]

The only reason that RAFAT survives is because nobody wants to be tarred with the legacy of having been the person who killed-off the Red Arrows. It's become almost an annual media event now to run a scare story and it's enough to scare-off any politician, service chief or civil servant.

I'm quite sure than once RAFAT have moved to Waddington, they will continue to survive for a few more years until their Hawks run out of hours. When they do, it will be a relatively simple task to explain to the public that without any aircraft with which to equip the team, they will have to go.

[skippedonce]

'The Reds' own website confirms that their annual cost is £6.3M.'

While I can't dispute that figure for the actual running costs of the aircraft, it seems a little short if you take into account the wages of aircrew and groundies who could be employed on operational rather than representational tasks, and the maintenance of the team's own air station at Scampton with its unique airspace that can't possibly be got rid of, and which requires a serviceable runway immediately below it.

The Reds do an outstanding job in promoting the RAF: indeed they seem to be the only recognisable element to many of the media and public, who think anyone in Afghanistan must be a soldier. But, as an organisation we are financially broke, the focus is on current ops, and with the way the economy is continuing to go down the plughole, I'd assume recruitment and retention won't be an issue for some time to come.

S.O.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

While I can't dispute that figure for the actual running costs of the aircraft, it seems a little short if you take into account the wages of aircrew and groundies who could be employed on operational rather than representational tasks, and the maintenance of the team's own air station at Scampton with its unique airspace that can't possibly be got rid of, and which requires a serviceable runway immediately below it.

This follows the attitude that all people in the armed forces should be employed in operational jobs all the time, with no room for "respite" tours, no room for doing something different, and no room for a break!

No-one's going to persist with back to back operational tours for 15 years. You need to have other things to offer people, both aircrew and groundcrew. The Reds are just another option.

Regarding Scampton, we can disregard that as they're moving shortly.

I think Tim's quite accurate, but I don't believe the Reds are safe purely because of the potential fallout; I think they're safe because they offer no meaningful savings coupled with that potential fallout!

[skippedonce]

5F6B,

I readily accept your point about the need for respite between operational tours, but am not convinced shiny red jets plays particularly well with the other services who, let's face it, we are in direct competition with for ever-shrinking resources.

As for Scampton, although I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong, I wouldn't be so sure...

Cheers,

S.O.

[anotherthing]

So because £6.3M is a small figure 'in the grand scheme of things' it isn't worth saving that amount of money?

Where do you draw the line and start saying that it is worth binning something to save money? £10M, £20M, £200M?

Savings need to be made across the board, some projects will provide big savings, some small. They will all add up to the required amount, because no amount of sticking your head in the sand will change the fact that the Armed Forces are under a clear and present threat.

How much money do the Reds bring into the economy? That is always an argument used when people talk about chopping them. If there is a quantifiable figure, how about telling the ministers that the Reds are a military concern and have nothing to do with HMG coffers, therefore all quantifiable income from them goes straight into the defence purse.

Of course that will never happen, so while people talk about bases and real projects being closed/stopped, then serious questions about things such as the Red Arrows have a relevance.

In an ideal World the Red Arrows would be safe, the Royal Yacht (or her British built successor) would be sailing the seas, Cott would not be earmarked for closure etc etc, but we are not in an ideal world, we have a failing industry base with a virtually non existent ship building capability etc, a failing economy that is not recovering whilst other European ones are.

We can whinge all we like about the fact that we should not be in this position and that decisions made when Brown was Chancellor are biting hard now, but the fact is we are in this position.

Trimming the nice-to-have but not essential things does need serious consideration.

[TheSmiter]

OK OK its a wind-up.

THE REDS ARE SAFE! :ok:

Sorry, Gainsey, with Bungling Bob's announcement yesterday I just couldn't wait til March, although am quite prepared to start it up again to maintain the tradition!

My whole point with this crude Sun headline, was to highlight the inconsistencies in the Govt's argument for defence cuts ie that capabilities must be sacrificed to pay for Afghanistan and anything which is not relevant to that conflict is fair game for the axe. If that is the case then everything, including the Reds, would be under scrutiny. Afghanistan is today's story, but when we pull out of there in a few years time (short time scale according to Obama) what then? I refer you to CDS's speech to RUSI earlier this month:


Meanwhile, the wider strategic environment is a matter of great concern to me, and should be to all of us. Risks to our security and to our interests abound; and in this increasingly interconnected world they have the capacity to affect us more deeply and more widely than ever before. We should perhaps reflect on how the chain reaction we've seen in the financial sector recently might foreshadow something similar in the security and defence field.



The fact that the Reds are not under scrutiny, and never will be, tells me that they provide another, more valuable service to the Govt; an iconic symbol helping to perpetuate the myth that we are a first rate nation punching above its weight on the world stage.

The argument is not about the Red Arrows, I don't care how much they cost or who funds them; they are a superb display team, fantastic ambassadors for the country and the very public face of what used to be a force to be reckoned with. The fact that we no longer are a force to be reckoned with, is something that needs to be out in the publc domain ......... loud and clear. Until then, expect more headlines in a similar vein. Your turn next Gainsey.

BTW My complete support for the Reds is a given, Justanopinion, no dig has ever been made or intended, indeed I have a very special reason for taking a keen interest in them this year. I am very well aware of their operational backgrounds and the conditions under which they have served in theatre.

Oh and vecvecthingy I'm looking forward to your dissertation on Air Power and the Red Arrows - should be quite a laugh.

[Cows getting bigger]

£6.3 may not be a lot, but I speculate it is far more that the F1771s (or whatever JPA calls it) that are no longer being processed.

[MACH2NUMBER]

Throughout my fast-jet career, I was never a huge fan of the Reds as I saw the diversion of excellent pilots, groundcrew and money as detrimental to the front-line and operations. As I grew older and perhaps more mellow, I changed my mind. For the relatively minor cost, the Reds are priceless for recruiting and positive PR.
What worries me most, is that the present "Government" do not understand that you must equip for the next war/operation/threat and finance accordingly. If it were possible to field 22 new Chinooks in the next few months, fine, but by 2012/13 or more who knows what we will need? This seems to be a knee-jerk. Meanwhile, they may be destroying priceless capabilities across the defence spectrum.

[minigundiplomat]

No-one's going to persist with back to back operational tours for 15 years.

Oh good. Can you tell the NCA poster please.

Thanks.

[vecvechookattack]

Oh and vecvecthingy I'm looking forward to your dissertation on Air Power and the Red Arrows - should be quite a laugh.


Why?

[PICKS135]

Cant get rid of reds till after the 2012 Olympic flypast. Got to have something to brag about.

[Clipped Wings]

Standby for 2018, once that year is over and done-with the Red Arrows will be retired. Enough spares for the T1/T1A Hawk are being set aside and the least fatigued airframes identified for that venerable aircraft to last another 9 years in it's red colour scheme.

[ZH875]

Scrap the Nimrod role and use the 9 MRA4 aircraft for the Reds.

Lots of noise, and plenty of space to bring duty free cigarettes back to the UK.:E

[The Equivocator]

BTW My complete support for the Reds is a given, Justanopinion, no dig has ever been made or intended, indeed I have a very special reason for taking a keen interest in them this year. I am very well aware of their operational backgrounds and the conditions under which they have served in theatre.


I am sure they're all great blokes and some current and ex Reds are my friends, but they ain't all done 'operational tours' my friend. There are some current members and recent past members who haven't got dusty boots...and how you can get promoted without going any time on Ops these days I've no idea.

Open RAFAT up to all pilots in the RAF, let the rotary and multi boys get a go if they're up to it. Then your 'operationally' representative team might have some more credibility...

I'm not good enough, I know that, but have flown with some pretty special RW and multi-boys in formation and not just three-ships!

Inbound...'No, the F3 is an operational tour' '...and so is the Falklands' 'You're just jealous' 'The Jaguar did HERRICK...' etc etc...:yuk:

[Could be the last?]

The RAFAT could cost the tax payer 630K, 6.3M or 63M; ultimately it's about perceptions, and not actual costs.

Do they deliver????

[dkh51250]

Weren't the services of the RAF Police Dog Demonstration Team dispensed with as a cost saving measure some years ago?

What were their running costs?

Over the years music services have also taken a hit to save pennies.

[RumPunch]

Its fair enough the Red only use £6.3 Million per year funding but the MRA4 is not being taken into service because there is no money for spares, surely an asset that is needed and the sooner it is the better for all even the AT fleet is more important than recruitment tools. (£6.3 Million could buy some spares)

It would seem shunting off 2500 personnel yet keeping a flying display team is more important. They have cut off all funding now for education support and the small things that made up the **** factor as you wish to call it.

People are growing increasingly angry why we have this luxury when many good squadrons are being chopped to the bone.

Personally I dont give a monkeys but increased pressure sure at the Defense review will see this subject brought again im sure.

[Pure Pursuit]

RAFATs Hawks are lifed until 2018.

100th anniversary of RAF will no doubt be their last season.

[TheSmiter]

Equivocator
I am sure they're all great blokes and some current and ex Reds are my friends, but they ain't all done 'operational tours' my friend. There are some current members and recent past members who haven't got dusty boots...and how you can get promoted without going any time on Ops these days I've no idea.

Thanks buddy, I deliberately didn't mention that as I didn't want to step on any toes (it being the season of goodwill etc)!

Merry Christmas to you, them ........... everybody!:)

[BlindWingy]

Its quite shocking to see the open jealousy displayed on this thread. It appears to come from those who are bitter at never having the ability to be a red in the first place, or from members of other services who can't handle the constant irritation of knowing that they have nothing which even comes close.

All the best,

BW

[minigundiplomat]

Blind,

this has nothing to do with jealousy, unless you're referring to funding. Many people are looking at deep cuts or even redundancy, and are fairly justified in asking why money is being spent on an aerobatic team, regardless of world class status.

It isnt jealousy, it's simple economics.

[c130jbloke]

I second MGD ( again :eek: ) With people looking down the barrel of unemployment ( seriously unfunny ) its a fair question to ask what is an entire squadron's worth of cost ( at 6.3 mil - my @rse ) doing to justify its existence ? If we are going to chop SSBNs, then the Reds / Falcons / RAFP dog teams and Christ knows what else are more than fair game...

As for jealousy, if its by people who are under threat of losing their jobs when you see what may be considered needless waste ( why do the reds need an SO1 to run the show ? ) then yup, you bet.

This is absolutely nothing personal against anybody, but the prospect of getting a P45 somewhat sharpens the focus.....

[Blighter Pilot]

RAFAT can go for me......BBMF must stay as a lasting reminder to previous sacrifices.

Lest we Forget

[Bismark]

I guess it is the ultimate indication of a Service that has lost the plot when it retains a non-op aerobatic team ahead of front-line forces.

[Finningley Boy]

It's the first time I've posted on here and I may be joining this particular debate after the moment has past for some. However, given recent events, the topic has, perhaps, regained some topical currency. Anyway, my piece is to say that I don't think military operations anywhere, certainly not at present, are diminshed because of the existence of the Red Arrows. There wouldn't be an extra half a dozen Tornados in Afghanistan now but for the existence of an aerobatics team. One more thing I will observe, however, it's about time the P.R. capers surrounding this team moderated just a bit. The Red Arrows-to state the obvious-are a military display formation, NOT JLS. I do believe there is a marked difference twix the two.:rolleyes::*

FB

[gareth herts]

Welcome FB.

There is already, perhaps unsurprisingly, a newer thread than this one which might be of interest.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/410563-rafat-future-2.html#post5610551

G

[glad rag]

Many people are looking at deep cuts or even redundancy

Aye, going to hit hard that is........

[Rory57]

Why not send the Reds on a tour of those dusty places to aid with "winning hearts and minds"? Might end all this negativity about non-operational spending.

What an impression they could make, black, red and green smoke on!

[RumPunch]

Well the reds looks nice still, if they can parade around the globe and have holidays then good on them . We are all just envious that we were never good enough to get picked to go on them.

[peterprobe]

Hmmm I am a fan of the reds. Great show always. But I do have to think a bit, which is hard these days. That the Navy used to have a fleet review....... which was huge. The Army used to have a great Royal Tattoo ( I know I spelt that wrong) which was great. The Army even had an air show at Middle Wallop. The BBMF was all over the country, each station had its' own open day with flying involved. Can I ask the ones who are informed................ where did all the money go???? Apart from bloody middle managment consultants. So chop them , keep the reds, bring back pongo flying, buy a carrier or two........... O as a another thought, how about keeping lads and ladys out in sandy stuff as happy as you can be in that world.