Buy a share for PPL training

[Rooky]

Hi all,

Just joined. This is my first post.

I have been looking to start my PPL training for a year or two now, but have not yet started.
I have an opportunity to buy a share in an aircraft and then undertake PPL(A) training in it. I am told there are qualified insrtuctors available, but the aircraft is based at a nearby unlicensed airfield (Little Gransden). The group appears friendly, well run and the plane (Cherokee) well-maintained.

It sounds like an economical way of doing the PPL.

Any thoughts?

[ifitaintboeing]

Rooky,

There are restrictions on remunerated ab-initio flight instructon on group owned aircraft:

http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/aic/white/EG_Circ_2009_W_071_en.pdf

See the statement at 3.3, and Annex A for a summary.

ifitaint...

[Phenom100]

No training can be done from an un-licensed airfield.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Having just read the AIC it seems the answer is 'NO' in your case for several reasons:
1. Public Transport CofA required (1.1) (maybe a problem in your case);
2. Jointly owned aircraft (3.3) (definately a problem in your case);
3. Unlicensed airfield (7.1) (definately a problem in your case);
4. Licensing requirement of instructor (8.1) (definately a problem in your case);
5. Annex A (1st line, 3rd column) (it's a NO)

I remember three businessmen buying a Piper Tomahawk between them and all learning to fly - the reason they could do it was because:
1. The aircraft had a Public Transport CofA;
2. They were joint directors of a Limited Company (the sole owner) formed for the purpose;
3. They flew from a licensed airfield;
4. They were all members of the same club, so flying instruction wasn't a problem;
5. Under Annex A (1st line, 4th column) (it's a YES);
6. They hired the aircraft to the club and realised an income;
7. The cost of their PPLs was small due to the above and they had an asset to sell on completion of their training.

All is not lost, but you would have to consider another aircraft and location by the sound of it?!

KR

FOK

[Whopity]

The Public Transport C of A disappeared about 5 years ago! What you can do with an aircraft depends upon how it is maintained. If it is maintained to public transport standards then you can use it for instruction. Doesn't matter how many people own it, that only applies if is maintained to private standards.

The major issue may be insurance; does the policy cover ab-initio instruction? To do a PPL course on it, if it is maintained and properly insured, you will need to have the Registered Facility where you do your PPL declare it to the CAA as a training aircraft.

Any training you do will have to begin and end at a licensed aerodrome.

[Rooky]

Thanks to you all for your excellent advice here - very much appreciated.

I get the impression then that this may be possible if:

1. Aircraft is maintained to standards applicable to aerial work (public transport standards).

2. Take-off and landing from a nearby licenced airfield at start and end of lesson (read this from an earlier post about the same airfield)

3. Clearly, the instructor would have to be appropriately qualified. Presumably this would have to be the case in any event.

4. Insurance is OK.

These may not be insurmountable, but what seems to stop the whole thing is section 3 of the AIC. "This means that it is not possible to conduct training towards the grant of a licence or rating in a jointly owned aircraft but it is possible to renew..."

Is this true whatever standard of maintenence is in place?

BW

Rooky

[SkyCamMK]

The Gen Exemption doc at CAA ORS 4 - 733 expires 31 Jan 2010 - What then?

Have you considered joining with another thread writer and starting a club with your own aircraft?

[Whopity]

What on earth has 733 got to do with it? If the aircraft is maintained to public transport standards its totally irrelevant.

For those who operate aircraft to Private standards, they will no doubt be able to continue as all ORS's are reissued annually!
Clearly, the instructor would have to be appropriately qualified. and operate as, or within a Registered Facility.

[SkyCamMK]

Thankyou for that, I obviously misunderstood the purpose of the exemption and the way that it operates.

[Rooky]

"Have you considered joining with another thread writer and starting a club with your own aircraft?" Sorry, new to this & don't know how to insert quotes properly

Interesting suggestion SkyCamMK.
Sounds like a lot work setting up your own flying club in order to receive PPL training!

BW

Rooky

[foxmoth]

Whopity has it right, if the Aircraft is up to spec and through a registered facility the group ownership is irrelevant, you should be fine to go ahead with this, I am looking for something like this myself in fact to teach my daughter, and as an instructor myself would be happy to help with any group like this setting up in the East Hants/W Sussex area.

[DFC]

If the flying Instructor provides the flight training free of charge then the only payment will be to the group on respect of normal operating costs and thus the flight will be a private flight.

So if the instructor provides the flight training for free you can;

Have the aircraft maintained to Private Standards;

Pay the normal group hourly rate and monthly costs;

Receive training for the PPL, IMC, Night etc etc

The AIC is poorly worded and can confuse people by saying that flight training to PPL can not be completed on group owned aircraft when it should say;

Flight Training for the PPL can not be completed on group owned aircraft when the instructor is being paid for the flight instruction!

The answer is therfore;

Find an instructor who will proivide the flight instruction for free, confirm the insurance cover, set up an RTF, and start your lessons from the nearest licensed aerodrome.

I am sure you will also find an examminer who will do the flight test for free......their post flight admin fee might be a bit high though!! :)

[Rooky]

That does sound very encouraging. As I said earlier, I'm new to all this. It's good to hear others find the AIC unclear - I certainly do.

I will pursue this further.
This really is an excellent forum. Many thanks to you all for going to the trouble of expaining this to a complete novice.

R

[No RYR for me]

It sounds like an economical way of doing the PPL.

The answer is NO it is not an economical way to do it. Go and rent and you are cheaper of 9 out of 10 times. Go do your PPL and don't worry about a new engine because they found oil in places it should not be, don't worry about the way you are landing and the associated cost for your tires, etc, etc..

Go fly and worry about the flying! Once you have done that and still love it (which you most likely will ;) ) then either find a good flying club and make a good deal on renting or join a group!

Ever wonder why flying at a flying club looks more expensive than having your own aircraft but at the same time the club is loosing money??? And they have more people flying more hours on the aircraft so should actually be cheaper! :8

So go fly and enjoy!

[foxmoth]

The AIC is poorly worded and can confuse people by saying that flight training to PPL can not be completed on group owned aircraft when it should say;

Flight Training for the PPL can not be completed on group owned aircraft when the instructor is being paid for the flight instruction!


IMHO I think even this bit is wrong - there is NOTHING to stop instruction on a group aircraft, provided it is maintained to the correct level and operated within an RTF, the instructor can even be paid then.

[Checkboard]

3 Flying Training in Jointly owned aircraft

3.1 If a joint owner pays for the services of a pilot in addition to contributing towards a central fund, neither is the only form of valuable consideration being given or promised and therefore the alleviations given by Article 157(2) and Article 162 do not apply. This would normally mean that jointly owned aircraft used for remunerated flying training would have to be maintained to airworthiness standards applicable to aerial work flight.

3.2 In order to allow owners of jointly owned aircraft to receive instruction in their aircraft, a General Exemption2 against the restrictions of Article 162 has been issued. The conditions of the General Exemption require that the person undergoing the training hold a licence that entitles him to act as pilot in command on that flight or would entitle him except that the licence does not bear the necessary certificate of test, experience or revalidation and the purpose of the training is to obtain that certificate.

3.3 This means that it is not possible to conduct training towards the grant of a licence or rating in a jointly owned aircraft but it is possible to renew or revalidate existing licences and ratings or to undertake differences, familiarisation and refresher training.

Indeed. As paragraph 3.3 in the AIC tells you that it is stating a conclusion based on the previous paragraphs, you can see that the conclusion is incorrect. Paragraph 3.3 should read:

3.3 This means that it is not possible to conduct training towards the grant of a licence or rating in a jointly owned aircraft maintained to private standards but it is possible to renew or revalidate existing licences and ratings or to undertake differences, familiarisation and refresher training.

- and for basic instruction, the aircraft must be "operated under arrangements entered in to" with a flying club. That's a pretty broad requirement. Simply having the flying club approve the aircraft's use in the lessons (once they have seen the paperwork and satisfied themselves that the aircraft is suitable) would meet that requirement, I would think. You would want that agreement on paper ;)