Is it to late ,age wise ?

[prophead123]

I am an 45 year old male living in Brisbane ,Queensland Australia.I have always loved aviation and I am a fully qualified aircraft technician having worked in aviation maintenance and production for the past 27 years ,
Question is I am about to make a big investment on a new career ? Am I too old to start an aviation career as a pilot ,I am looking to invest $100.000 dollars plus in training and to achive enough decent hour s towards a CPL is it worth it in the long run .my main interest is to return to Africa and do bush flying and charter work no big airline stuff I have an SA passport ....I just need some true advice ?:ugh:

[Horatio Leafblower]

I would sugest with your background and experience, and most importantly with your stated goals, you could give yourself a 5-year plan.

I don't know anything about SA's industry but I have been told it is a bit similar to ours in some ways.

If you wanted to go and fly jets for an airline I would be dubious, but fly in the bush... yaw yaw, go fer et men! :ok:

PS: I think $100,000 is pretty rich for bush/GA qualifications...? :ooh:

[tartare]

If you don't do it... in forty or fifty years time will you be lying there thinking... "If only...?"
Life isn't a dress rehearsal; you get one shot.
Go for it.

[The Green Goblin]

Life isn't a dress rehearsal; you get one shot.
Go for it.

Wise words, maybe you lot do get educated in New Zuland after all :ok:

[PA39]

:ok:If you have the constitution and will power, age doesn't matter. There is ALWAYS room for guys or gals who excel at their profession. 45 should have you as a mature adult with a lot of common sense and life experiences.

[Mach E Avelli]

45 is not too late for G.A. but without prior experience almost certainly too old for the airlines or regionals. Most have some secret age/experience criteria which they are not allowed to publish because of age discrimination laws, but apply nevertheless.
In fact, a smart G.A. Chief Pilot would realise that an older person is likely to stick around longer because with no prior experience will have nowhere else to go.
As well as needing a war chest to fund your training, at 45 you may need to ask if you can really afford the typical G.A. salary (pittance) that you will be on. Love of flying is one thing; but no one can live on love alone. Unless you have an independent income, the novelty could wear off when the hunger pangs hit.
Also, to consider - if your first job will be in Africa, why not go there to learn to fly rather than doing it here then having to go through the hassle of converting licenses over? If you are learning in a particular location you tend to make useful contacts there and it may be cheaper there. Ask around. It's not as if there is anything special about an Australian CPL that makes it worth 100 grand.

[Lodown]

I would think being a "fully qualified aviation technician" depending on what those qualifications (licensed???) entail, with a pilot's license would make you a desirable candidate in rural Australia or Africa. Should you take up flying as a career, you'll have to be careful that you don't get shoe-horned back into a technician's role again, unless that is what you want, because employers are going to want to double dip on your qualifications.

[Mick.B]

Also with all those years experience, no doubt you would have allot of contacts. Not what you know its who you know.:ok::ok:

[The_Pharoah]

"Most have some secret age/experience criteria which they are not allowed to publish because of age discrimination laws, but apply nevertheless."

any details on this?

[The Green Goblin]

A rule of thumb is 100 per year of age, i.e a 30 year old should have 3000 hours. Once you hit 40 I believe 500 hours per year above. so 41 = 4500 etc.

At 45 you should have at least 6500 hours.

GG

[Captain Nomad]

A phrase that was used quite openly with larger airline type experience requirements criteria:

"Experience commensurate with age" - a caveat to allow selectivity and a polite way to decline applicants 'not meeting the criteria.'

[The_Pharoah]

so basically us 'late bloomers' got no chance :uhoh:

[The_Pharoah]

yes I've heard that many time before however at the end of the day if attempting to join QF, VB or J* at age 40 with only say 2000 hrs on the clock is a waste of time, it would be nice to know earlier than later. :bored:

I echo the sentiments expressed earlier...once the love runs out...you still have to eat. :}

[ab33t]

Hey , Im a SAFFA living in London , got my PPL at 41 and now am flying coporate , very tough . The comments and opinions as before , you could end up with a good jobe or working for the hole in the washer .... no kidding I sometimes fly for nothing just to do some flying , this wreaks hell on the finances . I LOVE FLYING , " Hate the industry" .

Take some of that A$100,000 and convert it to the good old Rands when the exchange is in your favour and put it away to live on when the going is tough. If you have a family , I would say right off think carefully .

Things are KAK in Africa as well , check the threads for Africa flying ... yes I have been looking at that as well just to do some flying .

[pilatuski]

I've been thinking along similar lines...thanks for asking the question Prophead123:ok:

I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm 34 and have been seriously considering going for my commercial ticket and making a big career choice move aswell.

The replies have answered a few of my questions, but, would I still be struggling to get the required hours to keep moving up the ladder and into the regionals etc.
Being based in NZ, I can imagine there are alot of pilots for a small number of jobs, but I would be able to look further afield (Uk-Europe) at a later date.
I have the ability to keep work going on a contract basis if things are tight which is good, and know of a few people in the aviation industry here......I'm just trying to look at things realistically.

Best part is my Wife and kids say go for it!!:ok::)

Any helpful comments most welcome....and good luck with your decision prophead123:)

[Wally Mk2]

PH23 the only person that would actually stop you from doing this is you. Nobody knows you better than the guy you see in the mirror everyday:) Practice that mirror looking as we pilots love it:} You/we all fly 'cause we love it, do it for other reasons & you may very well fall flat on yr ass:-) We in here can all give you accounts of personal achievements etc but at the end of the day way up all the pro's & cons of undertaking this adventure & you decide based on where you see yourself in say 5 yrs having spent all that money & a full time fulfilling flying job hasn't eventuated. Like aviation itself have a back up plan for a rainy day & aviation is full of rainy days:-) Getting a pilots license is the easy part, too easy in some ways.
If you love flying them you should be will be able to keep it "up" longer than some Dr helo driver has shown of late:}

Good luck & we all here want a full report in say a couple of years time

Wmk2:ok:
.

[Homesick-Angel]

Its all pretty much been said, but really if you want to do it, you should.

If you were to pour all of yourself into it, and money was no obstacle you could get the training done asap, and your background will be an advantage.

Id go get a class one medical first up to make sure you can hold one and then just go for it..

Surely you can get your training done for a lot less than 100 grand if you do some looking around.

Good luck.Let us know how it pans out

[training wheels]

I remember reading here on Pprune that there was (is) A Qantaslink captain in his 70's. Is that correct?

If you're just aiming to fly for GA and may be even for the regionals, then I don't think age is not that much of a factor. You can continue to fly as long as your class 1 medical is valid.

[Di_Vosh]

Mate,

I had my first flying lesson at age 38, and am currently a Qlink FO. I meet the required minimas for J* (2400 TT at age 46), and think that I'd be successful if I were to apply. So you shouldn't have a problem with being

age 40 with only say 2000 hrs on the clock

It is (of course) vitally important to be in the right place, at the right time, and with the right qualifications. (I've been very lucky in that regard).

Disclaimer: By the time you're 40, the minimas may be well over 3000 TT, or J* may be hiring "250hour Fatpls".

Be aware of lifestyle changes:

I'm earning around half of what I earned as an I.T. consultant, so be prepared for a (possible) pay cut, along with everything that that entails, and being away from home a lot. There are sacrifices that you (and wife/kids) will have to make. I've been very lucky there as well.

On the plus side, I'm much happier in this career than my last one.

To the OP,

My tip is to go for it! You've set your sights on where you want to be, know where you'd like to operate and have been there before.

Not sure about whether it's better to do your training here and convert or over there. Depends on where in Africa you want to fly, I guess. I do agree that you should aim to work as a "Pilot who can also be an engineer" instead of the other way around. Good luck!

DIVOSH!

[unairworthy]

Thanks DiVosh, that is quite an inspriational post for many on here!

[Art of Flying]

G'day Prophead123,

At the age of 36 I too have decided to give it a crack!

No flight experience other than large amounts of travel that now keeps the interest in the current occupation. Hence the realisation that it is the travel and experience of flight which motivates me.

Therefore, throw your heart into your passion as I am, and have a strategy over the next 5 or so years. I too have a back-up plan if the career does not eventuate and after much due diligence, realise that nothing is for certain in aviation.

It does concern me, as it appears for many others, the trend of eradicating terms and conditions of employment. Well this mindset appears to be widespread across many industries and ultimately it will be up to the individual to agree or disagree as unfortunately there in no effective concensus to be able to compete with this strategy until demand outstrips supply once more.

As to remuneration with a finite number of years to achieve a Return on Investment with regards to training costs, give yourself a 5 year plan to recover costs as well as being able not to compromise your current standard of living. What I believe I can offer a potential employer is not only skills achieved profesionally, but also a maturity and a well refined decision making process.

The support from my wife is the best incentive I have to pursue these goals, and given time and patience, oppurtunities will present. I also believe in having no regrets, as my worst case scenario is to be able to enjoy the left seat with family and friends for recreation and pleasure. It is what you make of your opportunities that influence the factors that determine your pathway.

Networking is the hurdle that I am currently focussed on as it has now become more of a requirement than ever before. If there is a person or personsn who are able to mentor or even provide an insight to their own challenges and achievements of becoming professional within the industry, I would be grateful for any information, regardless if they are currently operational or now enjoying the leisure of flying at their own pace.

Cheers,

AoF

[Nick.]

I'm earning around half of what I earned as an I.T. consultant, so be prepared for a (possible) pay cut, along with everything that that entails, and being away from home a lot. There are sacrifices that you (and wife/kids) will have to make. I've been very lucky there as well.

On the plus side, I'm much happier in this career than my last one.


Thanks Di Vosh, great post.

I only got started with my trainining this year (aged 30) and with the same background. The benefit as I see it is the ability to complete my training part time and be debt free once qualified.

There's much to be said for making money, but if it makes you miserable ...

[The_Pharoah]

I echo that - I'm glad someone finally put some numbers around minimums with age (obviously NOTHING is guaranteed I know that). However, atleast its great to see that it can happen. :ok:

[prophead123]

As previously mentioned ,its great to get all your opinions ,so my battle plan is to start my training early 2010,and pay for it as she goes till I progress up to a CPL and at my age I hope to become a flying instructor ,I think I will leave returning back to Southern Africa for a while not much good news coming out of there .
thanks to you all .
by the way have a happy Xmas and a great new year :ok:

[AnQrKa]

“yes I've heard that many time before however at the end of the day if attempting to join QF, VB or J* at age 40 with only say 2000 hrs on the clock is a waste of time, it would be nice to know earlier than later.”

What absolute crap.

“A rule of thumb is 100 per year of age, i.e a 30 year old should have 3000 hours. Once you hit 40 I believe 500 hours per year above. so 41 = 4500 etc.

At 45 you should have at least 6500 hours.”

What nonsense. Where does this “rule of thumb” come from? P


With all due respect, the opinions of those suggesting age matters are bollocks.

Age once was a factor in the old days, QF,TN,AN. AN and TN even stated such.

These days, it is HIGHLY illegal to discriminate against age no matter how few hours you have and more importantly, it is a mindset that is no longer in play. Except maybe at outdated airlines like QF.

Do you think Tiger/Jetstar/Skywest etc give a hoot of you are 48 with several thousand hours? I doubt it. Do you think mr knuttsenburger gives a rats ass about age when he orders his G-EX or G550. Nup.

Guys, go for it.

QF may not happen but there is a big wide world out there beyond the rat. And if it doesn’t work in oz, do what I did, ditch oz and go OS. There are loads of jobs out here and you don’t need to do a bodgy year 12 maths course to get

[unairworthy]

QF may not happen but there is a big wide world out there beyond the rat

If airlines don't discriminate based on age, then why would your comment be valid?

[fudwinkel]

Some employers explicitly state maximum ages either at time of contracting or expiration of contract, some simply state 'experience commensurate with age'. Others dont give a tinkers. There is no global personnel department promulgating universal rules on this matter. As was said above, if you narrow your sights to Australia you narrow your options.

In Australia it appears employers will often monitor the colour and sex of employees in an effort at compliance but with the age of employees they apparently are more indifferent to compliance as there is little to no enforcement. In other countries employers are free to hire who they want and it is not always the case they will fall into the younger the better category.

In the recent hiring boom, which I reckon started to end circa March 2008 and maybe 6 months later in Australia, I met plenty of pilots, many with quite limited experience and of ages significantly more advanced than all those previously mentioned, who gained the employment they were seeking. Of course they did not limit their options to Qantas or Australia.

[AnQrKa]

"Some employers explicitly state maximum ages either at time of contracting or expiration of contract,"

Which airlines? Care to name one?

"If airlines don't discriminate based on age, then why would your comment be valid?"

I included this line to indicate my opinion of QF and its "system" of recruitment. "Except maybe at outdated airlines like QF."

Note the word except. Too subtle maybe?

[fudwinkel]

Many airlines stipulate maximum ages. Why single out one as an example?

[AnQrKa]

"Many airlines stipulate maximum ages. Why single out one as an example?"

Please, oh please let me know which airlines in oz stipulate a maximum age.

Over to you.

[eapilot2009]

AnQrKa

Why the aggro?

This thread is one of the very few in D&G that has remained positive and hasn't been hijacked by anyone trying to prove some dubious "point".

Why not leave it alone?

[Bo777]

People on here who think age doesnt matter, are complete morons. Its called the cockpit gradient. Having a 28yo captain and 50 something fo could spell major problems when the proverbial hits the fan. I know of a handful of more than capable 45-55 pilots who got knocked back by an airline due to this cockpit gradient excuse.

[Di_Vosh]

I must be one of those complete morons then, as I don't think that age is an issue. :cool:

Also, the people who employed both you and I must also be "complete morons" (Bo777 and I work for the same company).

I was employed by Qlink when I was 45. Last year Qlink employed quite a few people in either their late 30's or early 40's.

While I agree that it is possible that an older FO could give a younger Captain "cockpit gradient" issues during an emergency, I'd like to think that the professionalism of both our Captains and FO's wouldn't allow this to happen.

I'm guessing that Qlink agree. :)

DIVOSH!

[Bo777]

Divosh
I must be one of those ... well if the shoe fits? Previous years had seen unprecedented levels in the shortage of capable or moron pilots. Hence why we see them occupying the right-hand seat now. Prophead if I were you and I'm not, I'd be investing my $$$ in something that will give a positive return.

Ps Mavrick alertI meet the required minimas for J* (2400 TT at age 46), and think that I'd be successful if I were to apply. I hope I get the ultimate pleasure of having to fly with your ego one day divosh.:ugh:

[Di_Vosh]

Funny post! :cool:

I got no problems with you having a different opinion. :ok:

It's pretty sad, though, that ALL you can do is reply with personal attacks, or this statement:

Previous years had seen unprecedented levels in the shortage of capable or moron pilots.

which doesn't even make sense.

Anyway, happy to debate the issue of Age vs. Cockpit gradient. Let me know when you can debate a topic rationally.

Cheerio,

DIVOSH

P.S.

Hardly a big ego to say that I think that I'd be successful if I were to apply. Especially in the context of where I said it.

[Bo777]

Divosh
Sorry if you took the moron comment personally, but then again it was you that took it personally. If you re-read my previous posts the point might just sink in ... Age is taken into consideration during the recruitment process. You took it personally, believing I had meant it in a negative light ... preconceived idea. It can however work both ways both a negative or positive depending on what the company wants. In my example the company (not the link) raised the cockpit gradient issue during the interview and the age of the candiate was seen as a negative factor.
During 07-08, especially beginning 08 when recruitment was crazy management to some extent really didnt care who got in, actually they may have had some preference to mature people knowing that the majors where hiring they wanted some employee stability (a mate who didnt even have the minimum requirements even got in:ugh:). Hence my tongue in cheek comment "capable or moron pilots" where hired just to fill the right hand seat.
There you go my own personal accounts. An appropriate positive cockpit gradient is what you want at all times ... not a pissing contest because someones got a point to prove.

[AnQrKa]

eapilot2009,

No agro mate. Not from me.

Just sick of being in an industry so full of defeatists. "too old, not enough hours, you wont make it so dont try"

Its crap and just shows your own insecurity. Be positive for a change.

As for the cockpit gradient tosh, who says age impacts cockpit gradient. I have flown rhs with younger skippers and lhs with older fo's. No one ever got confused about who was boss. I have flown lhs with 60 yo fo's.

Take a look at employment in oz in the last couple of years. Heaps of old fellahs getting jobs, especially the regionals.

The old hangups in oz are becoming more of a distant memory. Eventually oz will join the developed world.

[scardycap]

Ok much as I hate to put myself in the firing line here goes.

Got my PPL at 33 moved back to OZ in 2003 and wanted to commence CPL training. At one well known school at AF the CFI thought he was doing me a favour and told me he wouldn't advise me on training there as he thought it would be a total waste of money as I was too old.
I did my training at a more positive enviroment and gained my CPL at 34.
2 years later and having logged only 12hrs during that time took the plunge and did an instructors rating and worked there for a couple of years before getting work as a Metro Captain.
I did all this with a wife and 3 young kids and we sold our house to finance the dream.

Now 41. Have a close friend at a well known airline in Hong Kong and unofficially I am too old.
Have another close friend with a regional and their recruitment has said meet the minimums and we would interview you. Knowing them fairly well I asked them straight up and they answered just as straight "you are not too old"

Point being this. Be realistic with your goals and then work hard to achieve them.
Don't let negativity or self doubt get in the way.

20 years spent doing a trade I hated just to make ends meet. Now I do what I love and actually get paid better for it.

As someone once told me
" don't let someone else build your world for you cause they will build it too small"

Enough said

Merry Xmas to all my fellow aviators:ok:

[Di_Vosh]

Cheers Bo :)

No, I never took your "moron" comments personally; I'm not sure how you read that into any of my replies.

I was obviously being too subtle pointing out to you that people with different opinions to you aren't necessarily complete morons


The personal attacks I was referring to was this gem:



Ps Mavrick alert
Quote:
I meet the required minimas for J* (2400 TT at age 46), and think that I'd be successful if I were to apply.

I hope I get the ultimate pleasure of having to fly with your ego one day divosh.


Which was just charming. :yuk:

Peace out :ok:

DIVOSH!

[Goat Whisperer]

On the subject of cockpit gradient with a young capt and older FO, I have several times braced myself for such an awkward situation, and always been pleasantly surprised that it didn't arise.

The only time I had to remind anyone who's carrying the fourth stripe was a chap close to my age keen to prove himself worthy for another shot at command course, and I'm one of the younger skippers in my position, although I choose not to look it.

[prophead123]

I have visited numerous flight schools in and around Brisbane and I see what you were all warning me about ,never seen so many "BYM`s" (Bright young Men) one instructor even stated to me that he was with the school till he builds up enough hours till he buggers off to Qantas ? what has happened to the flight instructors over 40 no! 35 its like getting a lecture from a teenager with supposedly 30 years experience ?and one school wanted me to wear a uniform with epllettes?what the !:mad:
So my plan of action is to keep my job on the technical side of aviation for the mean time and save up my annual leave and do the complete PPL ,night & Instrument rating etc .so once again a bit thank you for opening my eyes as to whats out there.
Much Appreciated :D

[The_Pharoah]

mate, have you tried Redcliffe Aero? Thats where I'm going to be doing mine and there's a nice sprinking of not so BYM :} if that makes you feel better!

One thing you will have to come to grips with is that, starting out at 45, you could possibly make it into the cockpit with a captain 20 years younger than you.

One thing I've realised - white hair doesn't make you wise.

As I posted earlier, do a search for posts from me and have a read, esp the one about 'am I too old' where the above was raised.

Good luck.

Pharoah

[Exaviator]

Prophead,

You have received pleased plenty of advice and information from the proceeding posts re the practicality of pursuing a flying career at your age.

The only suggestion that I would add is that prior to spending that kind of investment spend a couple of hundred dollars on a Stress ECG and full assessment by a cardiologist as to the state of your cardio vascular system.

Many pilots run into medical problems in the 45 - 50 age bracket which are not earlier indicated on the normal resting ECGs that routine medicals require.

What ever you decide - good luck with your future decision. :ok:

[prophead123]

:ok:
Much appreciated guys ! I have taken on board all your coments ,I have spoken to many folks in the aviation industry both here in Aus and South Africa and the stories ring true ! theres good with the bad .
as I mentioned in my original thread I still intend working towards a CPL in Aus but I do not intend giving up my day time job till something more lucrative comes along ,my main goal at this time would be obtaining an CPL and instructors rating and doing a few months one year maybe flying in Southern Africa ,having grown up there and having done my technical side of thing sthere I have a few contacts .
So a big thanks Guys ,you were a great help
I`ll keep you posted on developments
cheers
Prophead1123:D;)

[prophead123]

thank yoy ,will do :ok:

[htran]

With $100,000 you'll probably get a better return on investment on something else! :-)

Then you can do what us IT guys do (earn what an airline captain earns at half the age), and use that money to fly for fun.

Or better still, buy $100k in good shares, and you might have enough money to buy your own jet!

[KRUSTY 34]

It's not about the pay. It's not about flying for fun. It's about becoming one of the elite few, the Sky Gods that daily ply our upper atmosphere in the Hi-Tech machines of the future. It's about being imeadiately recognisable as such. It's about the little kids that wisper to their mothers as you walk by, "Look Mummy, there goes a pilot". Its about living the dream secure in the knowledge that you're a part of a corporation that itself looks upon you and your ilk with awe. It's about being in that 1% of wage earners and knowing that the spectre of unemployment, lousy living conditions, the uncertainty of home ownership, and the financial instability of the family are things that only mere mortals have to worry about. It's about being part of a profession that the community not only looks up to, but just about every man in the street would secretly give his left 'nad to be a part of!

Ahhhr... Sh#t! Time to wake up

[Wally Mk2]

........oh Lord, Krusty now ya making my heart bleed!:}:ok:

I guess secretly yr right on all counts but being a pilot these days is no big deal as the general public who now pretty much all fly as apposed to those few who could afford to do so & respected pilots as Gods no longer feel that way as flying is now just another boring means of getting there. Don't get me wrong I still like to hear the little kids say look mummy there goes a policeman even though I'm wearing my flying monkey suit:)
The mystery of flying, the mystique actually is no longer there for the up & coming newbies as it's just a big video game (well Airbus wise) & with cadetships now emerging as the way of the future this 'game' is open to anyone whom can afford the training with sights set on an airliner right from day one without having to do the hard yards(but that's another story!).

As for the topic here, age? Well I'm living proof that it is (or was) possible to start late & get somewhere within an industry where once upon a time if you where not in the Airlines by 25 ya missed the boat! The Airlines are only one aspect of flying albiet thought to be the top.

To all those living a dream (of flying) let not the bounds of our Earthly existence stop you for flight is still a marvel of our modern times:ok:

Wmk2, sits beside Krusty & shares tears:ok:..........or another drink:E

[KRUSTY 34]

Beautifully said Wal', and perhaps my post should have been in one of the cadet threads. I know exactly where you're coming from, but even so I couldn't fine the "tounge in cheek" icon.

As for being a late starter, I'm certainly hearing ya'. Didn't take my first lesson till 27, and like you said, back then if you didn't have significant experience by 25, then forget a career in the airlines. Fortunately things have changed in that respect, and even Krusty is now earning a survivable wage after doing his decade in GA, and almost as long again as a low paid F/O! He still doesn't feel it's enough for all the years of deprivation though, and frequently bitches about it.

So prophead123, by all means go for it, but do it for the pure love of it. If you are motivated by the long lost notions of the profession (as ranted by Krusty) you may be disapointed.

Best of luck.:ok:

[dabz]

Bravo Krusty! :ok:

[Lodown]

Oh nuuuurse! Krusty and Wally are blabbering nonsense again. Perhaps another Viagra and a couple of Nodoze each.

[PA39]

:) Don"t go the full monty mate. If you enjoy flying, achieve your ppl and "play it by ear" from there.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ahhh Lowdown. Didn't you know that age and cunning will always defeat youth and exuberance, or words to that effect.

PA39 is quite correct prop'. Nothing wrong with testing the water first.

[Wally Mk2]

'lodown'..........I don't play footy so 'Nodoze' would have no effect on me:} Viagra? Well I believe that product makes ya heart go faster, that same effect can be achieved by doing an RNAV into BLT at night in the poo although you would be pretty 'stiff' to miss out:E But I'll take the nuuuurse thanks very much:p

Krusty have you ordered ya rockin' chair yet? We can sit on the same mythical veranda & dream of daze gone by in the not too distant future:ok: Mate I didn't hold a full time flying job 'till I was 43. Fortunately I was employed in another field related to aviation for many years where the money was far better than GA driving so I guess I had the best of both worlds there for a while:).Once upon a time newbies worked several jobs just to fly anything with wings. These days Govt loans (hex or whatever ya call it) advances the money to go get a flying job, oh well I guess they invented mono planes too, that's progress!.........I think:ok:

Wmk2