What do you need to like BA's product/service?

[Final 3 Greens]

On another thread, Jarvy has said "F3G will always be anti BA."

Some of the longer tenure peeps may remember I used to be a strong supporter of BA, up to about 2005-06, then we had GG, threatened strikes, service level cuts etc.

I'm not inherently anti BA, just don't think the company provides very good VFM at the moment.

So it got me thinking, what would it take for some of us to like BA again?

My initial thoughts are


Less threatened industrial action- it feels like a crisis occurs every year
A consistent experience at T5, with a reasonably consistent security transit time (I see some evidence of application of effort to achieve this]
More nous shown towards premium pax - e.g. please research the customer base before changing the Club Europe seat configuration
Restore the cut services in the Club product
Improve the ground services (i.e. empower the people, some are very good, but cannot make decisions]


That would persuade me to use BA for far more flights, what would bring others back?

[Diver_Dave]

F3G

I've had 3 mails this past year asking why I haven't flown with them and
here's a wine / insurance / credit card [1] offer I qualify for.

The simple fact is...

I used them on three routes MAN- SOU / FRA and MLA.

None of which exist anymore, along with the fact they went back on their
word and letter to match Air Malta's baggage allowance on the MLA run I've
no real reason to use them.

Long haul tends now to be LH via FRA as BA are more expensive and I'd rather fight my way round Frankfurt where security are at least polite and
organised than LHR / LGW where I've had nothing but delays, jobs worth and
trouble in the past.

It's been said here before BA isn't BA, it's London Airways. Before the
detractors start getting into it, if the routes weren't profitable / load factors
not high enough why do LH / AF et al fly the regional UK airports?


That said flight wise I've never had a bad flight with BA and when GB had the
MLA run from Manchester actually really enjoyable flights. All in all in the air no problems... It's just everything else...

Regards

DaveA

[1] Delete as appropriate

[dubh12000]

I want a better WT+ seat.....as I seem to be there most of the time now there is a recession on.

I do not want to be bused in from a remote after a red eye across the Atlantic

AVOD upgrades across the 777 fleet (I know they can't on some).

[Capetonian]

A change of attitude and morale from the top downwards is required. I cannot see this happening any more than the moral values of UK society can be restored in the short term. To me this is more important, and more difficult, than restoring the tangibles they have removed from the product offering.

After being loyal and frequent passengers over a long period (I'm talking maybe 20 short haul and 6 long haul per annum, which may not be a lot for some people but I feel it's enough to merit better treatment), we stopped flying BA after being treated like dirt by (contracted) check in staff, and when my written complaint to BA management resulted in untrue and libellous comments being made about me. I subsequently became the victim of a childish vendetta by the local staff.

Before that, on many flights, I found the attitude of many of their cabin staff quite unacceptable, brusque and unsympathetic. The worst case was when a young boy sitting near me, flying to London for an operation, turned blue from lack of oxygen and when the mother asked for help on arrival was told : "It had better be necessary, it costs us a lot of money."

We flew on scruffy aircraft with dirty and torn seats, we found call centre staff ill-informed and ill-mannered, and ground staff often even worse.

I doubt whether BA can do anything to tempt me back.

[strake]

I want it like it used to be...well, like I remember it used to be anyway.

The bed wasn't flat but the food, the wine, the service....ah, halcyon days.

YouTube - British Airways - Club Class - Pleasant Trip - UK Advert (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBQmMEHqm-g)

[L'aviateur]

As a Northerner I find that BA doesn't really offer anything suitable; I prefer flying KLM from Humberside, as it's more convenient and despite the business class product not being as good I generally find this route the easiest and most familiar.
I like flying via AMS, it's much easier then LHR and LGW and I also seem to actually earn some miles with KLM and get a status, never seemed to manage with BA despite flying long haul regularly. I use the KLM miles for last minute one-way bookings from Asia or Europe as the only cost is the taxes and fees, and have never had trouble booking them online.

I am also massively dissapointed with the Club Europe product, but this seems to have crept into most airlines with the normal economy seating and possibly a blocked middle seat.

P.S Oh yes, once flying LHR-MAN I was scheduled to sit in Seat 1A and removed at the last moment for Mr G Brown and forced to sit waaayy down the back, gave me a heart racing moment as I rushed to get off the plane and pushed past people to catch a train.

[Midland Transport]

I have accumulated 750000 airmiles and every thime I try and use them I can't. I am looking to go to Barbados next feb march with BA no seats in Bus or First so as normal I go to Virgin and although I have to pay money and miles I am a happy customer.

[ExXB]

I haven't flown BA for some time, because I believe that they no longer value my custom. This isn't one group, but pretty well all.

Empower your executive club staff. I called to book an open-jaw (which cannot be done on-line) after checking redemption seats available on both sectors to be told - I can't see the same availability as you can. Book it as a oneway yourself!

Fire, or put out to pastures, the dragons in the lounges - they really are unpleasant (actually rude and arrogant). I won't detail the numerous cases where I wanted to dump a bucket of water on them.

If you are going to promote availability at your 'lounge spa', try and have a system where it actually can be used. (I don't care, but Mrs. ExXB does)

Treat your premium passengers better. If we've paid the big bucks let us queue jump. Teach your staff that although they never will be able to pay for business or first themselves, they shouldn't hate us because we (or our employers) can. Get over it.

Get rid of the security check for connecting passengers. There is NO NEED to check us twice (at least if we are coming from a EU/US airport). And please, don't tell me it's too difficult. It isn't. And don't tell me it's the government not you - that's why you have lobbyists.

Change your stupid rewards system. Do what others do, give your miles a cash value that can be used as payment, or part payment for any ticket, in any class, on any flight.

Your 'upgrade for two' should not have an expiry, particularly when it's almost impossible to use them. If you want to reward us, do so - but don't think we appreciate being given something that is impossible to use.

[Anansis]

I'm inclined to agree with F3g's comment that BA do not represent good value for money. I generally fly long haul to south east Asia. Very rarely do I consider BA.

As I live in the north I have to travel to London in order to catch a long haul BA flight (either by train or via an expensive connecting flight which sometimes involves connecting between LHR and LGW at your own expense). Off the top of my head, KLM, air France, finnair, Turkish airlines, emirates and Qatar airways offer connections from my local airport (MAN) which are always cheaper and more convenient than BA. BA probably have the best standards of service I've experienced but the likes of Emirates and Qatar are not too far behind and they are a cheaper more convenient option for most of the 45million British people who happen to live outside of London.

Short haul there is not much to distinguish them from the locos. BA no longer provide refreshments short haul and they charge for seat selection. Frankly I'd rather fly easyjet for half the price.

To improve their product to the point where I would consider flying with them, BA need to do two things. Firstly, they need to better represent themselves in the reigons. As another poster commented, BA should be British airways, not 'london' airways. I appreciate that it can be difficult to support many routes without connecting traffic, but if Singapore airlines can offer a daily sin-man route, why can't BA? If they had kept GB airways they could have offered connections to support the route. Having hubs in the reigons would also help to releive the chronic congestion in the London airports.

Secondly, they need go distinguish their product. BA is a premium brand which people feel a sense of loyalty towards. They should use this instead of alienating their customers (see posts of exXB and midland transport below). Otherwise it will go the same way as aer lingus- an old ageing dinosaur which is trying (and failing) to support a high cost base with low fares. BA should accept that it cannot compete on price and strive to compete on service.

Anansis

[TopBunk]

AnansisI appreciate that it can be difficult to support many routes without connecting traffic, but if Singapore airlines can offer a daily sin-man route, why can't BA? If they had kept GB airways they could have offered connections to support the route.

I think that you have partly answered your own question.

Singapore Airlines (as do Emirates) use their home base as a hub and spoke operation. For example SQ fly on to many points in Asia and Australia as do EK through DXB. You must also bear in mind that a connecting flight from longhaul to longhaul adds much more value than a longhaul to shorthaul.

BA already offer lots of onward connections through LHR to Europe and North America (and MAN!). A regional BA route to any longhaul destination would have to stand on its own feet on a point-to-point basis, otherwise they are reducing the yields on the routes through LHR.

[Note: even QF who have a large transfer market from SIN to Australia, do not have a non-stop MAN-SIN flight offering]

There is always a market in attracting transfer traffic on a shorthaul to longhaul basis, eg MAN-AMS/FRA/CDG etc, as the shorthaul sector is basically added for free to help support the longhaul network; hence you will see that BA are presently actively seeking out European transfer traffic via LHR to its longhaul network (especially now that LHR T5 baggage performance is vastly better than 18 months ago).

Before anyone slags me off, no one would be happier than I if BA had a substantial regional longhaul network, but they even pulled off the last remaining MAN-JFK route that could support point-to-point traffic citing low yields. Whether or not this was internal politics I guess we'll never really know.

[ConstantFlyer]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes, then virtually every airport in the UK capable of taking an A319 could be linked to those two hubs. Heathrow would become a regional airport for West London and Berkshire, so no need for a third runway. There would still be space for point-to-point services where load factors justified it (eg London-New York).

[Anansis]

Topbunk-

The point I was trying to make is that by withdrawing from the reigonal airports, BA have lost the potential feeder traffic that could have supported long haul routes from the reigonal airports. Long haul to long haul connections may be more profitable to the airlines than short haul to long haul but the European airlines (KLM, LH, AF etc..) manage to do it competitively and profitably.

Why can't BA offer direct (long and short haul) connections from reigonal airports outside of London? I believe that such routes would generate sufficient point to point traffic to support themselves without purely existing to feed long haul routes. For example, look at the connections between north west England and Amsterdam. Ezy offer up to 5 rotations per day from liv, KLM offer 3 per day each from man and liv (I think jet2 do the route too from blackpool and man but I'm not too sure). Ezy also have up to 10 rotations per day from gva-lpl/man (in addition to the flights offered by Swiss). Sure, ezy's cost base is lower but the Market us certainly there. Surely they could at least offer codeshare connections?

In any case other airlines offer point to point long haul from man without the need for connections- e.g. PIA and Virgin. I find it hard to believe that BA can't find a single profitable route to from outside of London to North America (the ones that do exist are code shares operated by other airlines). Look at how many routes operate from DUB- an airport supporting a population of 6million or so. If DUB can have such an extensive network, some of Britains airports could support long hail routes too, regardless of the need for feeder traffic.

Returning to the point of the thread, British Airways simply isn't British anymore. Until they can offer competitive fares from my local airport, I will not be flying with them.

[PAXboy]

Anansis ... by withdrawing from the reigonal airports, BA have lost the potential feeder traffic that could have supported long haul routes from the reigonal airports.
My GUESS is that each route was sacrifieced to save money in the short term, to give quick savings and help the balance sheet (and bonus'!).

That said, as I have said in the past to defend BA. The competition in the short haul market was more than they could take. Just not enough people are prepared to pay for a premium product.

For an aging company that was not being allowed to link up with it's naturaly ally, AA, tetreating to the old BOAC format was a sensible strategy.

[TopBunk]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes.....

Have you any idea about how the business works? It would appear not:ugh:

[Capetonian]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes, then virtually every airport in the UK capable of taking an A319 could be linked to those two hubs

Do you imagine that UK originating passengers, the majority of whom are from the south east, would want to travel to Budapest, change aircraft, and on to Asia or Africa, and then do the same in reverse on their return? Can you imagine the potential for delays when the inbound connections are delayed?

There are numerous other reasons why this idea is stillborn, the above being perhaps a couple of the most obvious.

[TopBunk]

Anansis

You are blind to the reality...

EI are feeding their LH network from the SH to LH feed from the UK - without it they couldn't operate any LH services. They fly into DUB from LHR, MAN, BHX, NCL,EDI ,GLA, ABZ, xyz....

VS fly to MCO ex MAN (anywhere else year round?). This is a leisure route of no interest to BA (competing with VS would reduce yields rather than increase them, reducing/destroying profitabilty for both).

You really need to take an economics module or two before entering the fray!

[Anansis]

Why does British Airways have to have its hub at Heathrow? If it had its hub at, say, Budapest, for Asian and African routes, and, say, Madrid for American routes.....

Actually, as far as I understand it, that's one of the benefits of the BA/Iberia merger. Both airlines can streamline routes, with Iberia concentrating on South American and BA on North America. In that sense I suppose MAD would be the hub for the groups South American operations...

Anansis

[Anansis]

You really need to take an economics module or two before entering the fray!

...And so it begins- personal insults from people who know nothing about me. :rolleyes: I respect your opinion, even if I do not agree with it. I'm actually on my way out so I shall respond to your points (minus any personal attacks) tomorrow.

Anansis

[gdiphil]

Let's face it, BA have been terrible for quite some time. I used to use them predominately for business travel but gave them up about 6 years ago. They were full of rude checkin staff, dragons of both sexes in the lounges and in the cabin, to say nothing of astonishingly unhelpful frequent flyer people on the end of the phone. I was spending a great deal of money with them on 2 or 3 trips to Europe each week as well as long haul trips to South America, Australia, Far East and the States. I found they were safe but increasingly uncompetitive. What did it for me was the change in their long haul cabin in economy. It became such a squeeze even though I am an average 5ft nine inch, average weight middle aged guy. Because they offered an astonishingly cheap deal to the States last September I thought I would give them the business just to see if there was any change. Alas not. They are now worse than any of the US carriers, and that is saying something! Of course in an emergency or if all other carriers on the route are unsafe I wouldn't hesitate to use them. Frankly, if they went bankrupt or the brand disappeared into another group I wouldn't miss them.
However I do miss BOAC. Now they knew about customer service.

So, to bring me back to them which is what F3G asks is easy. Change the longhaul cabin to the old seats and or seating pitch. The rest of the product I don't care about.

[Final 3 Greens]

Topbunk

Have you any idea about how the business works? It would appear not

Perhaps the more pertinent point is does your employer?

They seem to think it is okay to cancel the last flight of the day, decline to offer HOTAC (as the reason is wx related, albeit hours before) and leave you to sort out the mess. (Silver card holder, C class ticket.)

Meanwhile, a loco competitor has a policy of poviding HOTAC for wx cancelations.

What part of this situation suggests that British Airways understands how the business works?

By the way, this happened to me for the 2nd time this year, last night.

And some posters wonder why I am not a fan of BA :mad:

[Jarvy]

Constant flyer, the clue as to why the hub has to be at LHR may be in the company name British Airways!! Yes it may be better for some passengers to have the hub elsewhere in the uk but most people travel from London and the south east.
I am not completely BA, if another airline comes up with a better all round package from Boston to LHR I would use them instead.
Sorry I could not just ignore this thread after all its my fault F3G started it:)

[Final 3 Greens]

Jarvy

Where does Irish carrier Ryanair have it's largest hub?

I think constant flyer's question is interesting to consider, even if highly unlikely to happen.

A multinational business will not hesitate to base itself for best advantage, conceptually, why should an airline be any different?

Of course, there are many real world constraints, but it is still an interesting thing to think about.

[One Outsider]

It would appear that F3G is a master at holding a grudge, and cultivating it, at whoever does not treat him according to his percieved status. Status being what it is apparently all about.

Single incidents are being dragged out for use and abuse over and over again. Again the common factor seems to be airlines not treating him according to his percieved status.

Status being the all important factor it seems.

[Final 3 Greens]

One Outsider

I will not resort to personal attacks like you, but if you take the time to re-read my post, the latest episode of BA dropping me in the mire occured 30 hours ago. Hardly a case of dragging it out time and time again.

As for holding grudges, more appropriately I remember where I got good service, for example I praise Lufthansa, Swiss and easyJet. If you read any marketing or customer service book, it will tell you that disgruntled customers do not hold back in their criticism - why should they?

Having paid for a very expensive ticket, I expect to receive a higher level of service.

Yes, status is important, I am travelling on business, pay for business class and expect to be treated in a more responsive way than someone on a discounted economy ticket. Disruption is expensive for me in direct and indirect ways. I also expect the carrier to be supportive.

If I am travelling on leisure and am paying for loco or economy I do not expect the same treatment.

I don't know if you work for BA, but your comments remind me of ExxB's words...

Teach your staff that although they never will be able to pay for business or first themselves, they shouldn't hate us because we (or our employers) can. Get over it.

[Capetonian]

It's a strange mentality where one is accused of 'holding a grudge' simply for expressing a negative opinion sbout the way one has been treated by a service provider.

[crewmeal]

I wonder if BA Management from WW downwards ever read forums and threads like these, as it seems they don't listen or respond to many passenger's comments. Reading what people have written above clearly demonstrates anger and frustration, no doubt because they can't get a decent response from BA. As a retired Purser with 25 years experience flying most of BA's routes from the BOAC days onwards, I have seen a rapid decline in service from all depatments. The worst being the attitude of the ground staff when dealing with passengers. If I'd spoken to people in the way some ground staff do I'd have been fired instantly.

Sadly it's not just BA, it's service levels everywhere, and often technology doesn't help as customer services tend to hide behind it.

The BA product has been downgraded in all cabins especially since 2001, why? I guess to save money. This has always had a detrimental effect on service levels, because crews have nothing of quality to offer, so Passengers look elsewhere for value.

Come on BA Management start specualting to accumalate your passengers and spend some money on the product, bring in some quality and give value for money, then you might see a return to the levels of before.

Personally I avoid BA when travelling because they don't fly to the places I need to get to.

Perhaps the days of Sgt Major wern't so bad after all.

YouTube - 1969 BOAC Sgt. Major (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuoV0mfxdUI&feature=PlayList&p=40A5578C33BF923C&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=27)

[ConstantFlyer]

Have you any idea about how the business works? It would appear not
TopBunk - Sorry if I upset you. This is just an idea, not a business plan. Let's see if between us all we can come up with some views about what would make BA's product or service good for us (as per thread title).

Do you imagine that UK originating passengers, the majority of whom are from the south east, would want to travel to Budapest,
Capetonian - I agree that most BA passengers are probably from London and South East England, but that may have something to do with the fact that BA mostly only flies from there.

I think British Airways' biggest problem is actually Heathrow itself. Given the heavy traffic and slow, crowded, public transport across the London area, and the sheer size of the airport and the time and effort it does take to get between terminals, a journey to, from, or via Heathrow is not one to relish. I remember reading somewhere that more people live within an hour of Birmingham or Manchester airports than within an hour of Heathrow, simply because most of that hour is taken up navigating the Heathrow complex.

Actually, as far as I understand it, that's one of the benefits of the BA/Iberia merger.
Anansis - That's what I thought too. It might make the merger all the more successful if, instead of BA/IB only linking Madrid with Heathrow, they linked it with several other UK airports, especially if BA's Latin American and Caribbean services flew from there. Other IB European services would also provide feeder traffic.


the clue as to why the hub has to be at LHR may be in the company name British Airways

Jarvy - I think BA relies very heavily on transit passengers. So many many pax are neither British nor starting or finishing their journeys in the UK. Perhaps 'European Airlines' or even 'Global Airways' might be a more appropriate name??!!

A multinational business will not hesitate to base itself for best advantage, conceptually, why should an airline be any different?

F3G - I can't think of an airline anywhere that has its main hub in another country other than Ryanair; but given the EU's 'Single Market' concept, it is now certainly open to EU airlines to do that. It'll be interesting to see how things develop with the European airlines in the Star Alliance and SkyTeam. I'd be surprised if OneWorld co-operation didn't deepen across all its members in EU countries.

To return to the thread title, here's what I'd need to put more of my business BA's way:

A regular one-change service from my local airport to worldwide destinations (as KL/AF and EK currently offer me);
Value for money (as other posters have said, reflecting the class of travel);
An alternative to Heathrow (though my experience of Madrid has not been entirely positive); and
Nice people (which many of BA's are - certainly compared to Iberia's, so I've found).

[L'aviateur]

With yet another announcement of strikes at the worst possible time of year, at the end (possibly) of a recession, I genuinely think the Cabin Crew are insane. Our company travel agents, and that of my previous company, are cancelling hundreds of BA bookings in the wake of this news because of the risks involved, whilst our future bookings being cancelled could be into the thousands.
If we are doing it, I'm sure other businesses are doing the same...

Self Destruction for British Airways...

[timmyneedham]

It would help if they didn't cancel your miles. I tried to use mine on a number of occasions only to find there were no seats available. Next thing I know, back to zero, I call to complain but am told miles can't be re-credited. If your club card vouchers run out at Tesco, you just call them and they re-issue the vouchers. You'd think BA would want to do everything it could to keep EC members flying with them. The thing is, every time I fly with them, I always think the CC are really good. It's just the EC and ancillary bits I find difficult. The actual flying bit is always fine in my experience.

TN

[Skipness One Echo]

Before the detractors start getting into it, if the routes weren't profitable / load factors not high enough why do LH / AF et al fly the regional UK airports?

Air France serve their one and only long haul hub through connecting at CDG, KLM serve their one and only hub through connecting at AMS, BA do the same over London through Heathrow AND Gatwick. What part of this needs CONTINUOUS repition as people don't seem to be able to get their heads around a basic similarity in their business model.
Legacy carriers serving point to point destinations outside of London are a niche operation, ask BMI Regional. Any destination they try would be jumped on by Ryanair and easyJet and the public choose price every time.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

What about LH? How many hubs have they got?

LH flies to more places in Germany from Manchester than BA flies from Manchester to places in the UK. BA doesn't fly from Manchester to anywhere in Germany.

[Skipness One Echo]

What about LH? How many hubs have they got?
Several but there are good reasons why this is a bad analogy to the UK.
Germany is
1) Much bigger
2) Not so economically concentrated into an area like the South East as the UK is.

What routes do you want BA to offer from the regions? Lufthansa have a feed at the German end. BA have nothing to feed and the locos will kill them on price. This leads to flying little aircraft like ERJ-145s and charging high fares for the privilige. Which is why the business man chose Lufthansa to fly on a bigger aeroplane and the economy traveler used the locos.

Exactly how are BA supposed to make money here?

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Several but there are good reasons why this is a bad analogy to the UK.
Germany is
1) Much bigger
2) Not so economically concentrated into an area like the South East as the UK is.Aha, I knew you would say that so bonus points to me.

The same criteria apply to France

so why did you use Air France as an example?

What routes do you want BA to offer from the regions? None.

Exactly how are BA supposed to make money here? That question applies to their whole operation. I do not have an answer. My position is that BA should be put into administration and we can start again. As far as passengers are concerned, the solution to BA's poor performance is to replace it with airline(s) with cost bases more relevant to today's business/consumer environment.

[13Alpha]

Meanwhile, back at the thread:

What do you need to like BA's product/service?

In the air:

No strikes.
Cabin crew who smile
Newer planes (some v. shabby inside)
More legroom in longhaul economy
Flight crew: keep on doing exactly what you're doingOn the ground:

No strikes
BA staff at checkin at my local airport
Less bussing to/from terminals
On a short haul flight I'd like more to eat than a biscuit or a bag of seeds
Guidance switched on when my plane arrives (it's been arriving at this time for months now)
Customer service people who care when I have a problem, are able to fix it, and do.
Better rewards for staying loyal to BA (Exec club is becoming more of an insult than a reward)
Stop asking me how good your website is and start asking me how good your airline service is - and acting on the replyThis Christmas ordinarily I'd fly BA back to Scotland. I'm going with Air France/CityJet because of the threatened strike. That's £150 not going into BA's accounts. How many other £150s (or more to the point, club class fares) are going somwhere else for the same reason ?

(BA Cabin crew seem to think the choice is between a BA job with nice T&Cs and a BA job with poorer T&Cs. I have news for you: the choice is between you keeping your job and your rivals' cabin crew having it, or the job disapperaing altogether).

Last month I flew to Hong Kong. Ordinarily I'd go with BA but this time I went with Cathay. Why ?

I flew with Cathay last year HK-Tokyo and the cabin crew smiled, were polite, the food was nice, the plane was new and the IFE was great.

I flew with BA back from honeymoon in Tanzania this June on a shabby 767 and all the cabin crew fella opposite me could do was scowl and complain about his upcoming schedule. Do I want to spend another 24 hours of my leisure time having people scowl at me?

There are many excellent BA cabin crew but I'm afraid this threatened strike and the attitude of some individuals has caused me to lose much of my sympathy for them collectively and for the company as a whole.

13Alpha

[Scumbag O'Riley]

You can itemise your desired improvements till the cows come home but it's all moot.

FT.com / Companies / Airlines - BA pension deficit swells to £3.7bn (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2b08489c-e883-11de-9c1f-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1)

Any pound that BA has to spare is going into the pension fund and not customer service improvements. Any savings from the Iberia merger (assuming Iberia want BA now) are going into the pension fund and not customer service improvements.

Edited to add that the FT doesn't let you read their articles more than once unless you cough up some cash.

So,

The interesting bit in there was that the valuation has to be approved by the pensions regulator, who appears to have been mostly kept in the dark and only has limited source information. Provisionally, the regulator didn't appear to think the valuation was accurate, and the deficit could in fact be substantially worse than the figures given by BA.

[WHBM]

Air France serve their one and only long haul hub through connecting at CDG..... BA do the same over London
So true. I was in Nice recently, where I was reminded that Air France only fly to Paris from there. They don't even do London, a route which is a major operation for BA. AF have commuter agreements from Nice to a few other, mainly domestic, points, a FlyBe-style agreement with regional carriers. They allow them to use the AF livery, but that is a detail.

[Capetonian]

I need to fly from London to Barcelona on 23 DEC, ideally around lunchtime.


BA's best offer

BA 478 H 23DEC LHR BCN 0735 1035
TOTAL 1 GBP 249.70

BA's best offer for lunchtime is £315.70

easyJet: London Gatwick to Barcelona

* Dep 23 December 2009 13:25
* Flight 5135
* 1 Adult
Total flights and options for all passengers: £114.99

BA means Heathrow, which I dislike (subjective opinion of course), whilst EZY gives me a choice of LGW, LTN, or STN. The LGW flight suits me best, and even if I pay for lunch on board and a suitcase, EZY saves me nearly £200.

BA might (WILL BE ON STRIKE) be on strike, will probably be a shabby aircraft with disgruntled cabin crew, and I don't feel they deserve my money.

Even if the price were the same, I'd choose EZY. And BA wonder why they are losing customers.

[Anansis]

What about LH? How many hubs have they got?

LH flies to more places in Germany from Manchester than BA flies from Manchester to places in the UK. BA doesn't fly from Manchester to anywhere in Germany.

Exactly. As I said earlier in this thread- KLM offer 6 rotations per day between AMS-LIV/MAN i.e. they pretty much dedicate one whole aircraft purely to servicing the north west of England. They even overnight two aircraft at each airport in order to offer 6am flights back to AMS. Surely if BA had aircraft based at MAN they could offer this service with much lower overheads? Add to the KLM routes multiple daily S/H rotations from the likes of Aer Lingus, Finnair, SAS, Swiss, Turkish and Lufthansa (who have FIVE routes from MAN to Germany!) and you have a pretty extensive S/H network that BA are not even bit players in. My own country's flagship airline!

BA's connections via LON simply aren't competitive and they often involve long layovers and connections between LHR and LGW- not good enough for the average time conscious traveller (especially short haul).

EI are feeding their LH network from the SH to LH feed from the UK - without it they couldn't operate any LH services. They fly into DUB from LHR, MAN, BHX, NCL,EDI ,GLA, ABZ, xyz....

MAN has a much higher population in its catchment area than DUB does. If they had a short haul network from MAN, BA could be feeding long haul traffic with it too, rather than losing most long haul pax north of Watford to other airlines.

VS fly to MCO ex MAN (anywhere else year round?). This is a leisure route of no interest to BA.

Are you seriously suggesting that BA's route to SSH (Sharlm El Sheikh) is full to the brim with bowler hat wearing, briefcase-carrying businessmen!? What about the Carribbean routes? Barbados? St Kitts? St Lucia? For the record I actually know more about economics than your average layperson, but you dont need to be an expert to know that businesses exist purely to maximise shareholder return.

My GUESS is that each route was sacrifieced to save money in the short term, to give quick savings and help the balance sheet (and bonus'!).

That would be my guess too PAXboy.


Skipness One Echo. The question posed by this thread was what would it take to get you to fly with BA...

Air France serve their one and only long haul hub through connecting at CDG, KLM serve their one and only hub through connecting at AMS, BA do the same over London through Heathrow AND Gatwick.What part of this needs CONTINUOUS repition as people don't seem to be able to get their heads around a basic similarity in their business model.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Perhaps if you lived outside of London this would be more of an issue to you too. I perfectly understand the merits of hub and spoke networks- that doesnt mean to say I have to accept that it is working in its current format for BA. In any case, Boeing have staked their future on the anticipated growth of point to point traffic (787). If all the other lemmings are jumping off cliffs does that make it a good thing to do? BA are losing long haul traffic in the north to competitors- why not have another hub or two? As I have just outlined above, there is a market for both short haul and long haul in the north of England. Add to the mix lower landing charges and less congested airports (= less delays) and you get a competitive service.

The whole reason we are flying planes and not living in caves is because certain individuals refused to accept the status quo and thought outside of the box. If BA had done so ten years ago, maybe they wouldnt be in the mess they are in today.

Anansis

[chrisbl]

I dont really care anymore as it is clear that the BA staff dont care that much either. Whatever they think about the management should not be obvious in front of the customer.
Listening to cabin crew bitching whlist doing the drinks service is not only unprofessional it deserves the sack.

BA is doomed and it will be destroyed by the staff who have taken it for granted and believe they are still civil servants.

[Skipness One Echo]

Surely if BA had aircraft based at MAN they could offer this service with much lower overheads? Add to the KLM routes multiple daily S/H rotations from the likes of Aer Lingus, Finnair, SAS, Swiss, Turkish and Lufthansa (who have FIVE routes from MAN to Germany!) and you have a pretty extensive S/H network that BA are not even bit players in. My own country's flagship airline!

Do people read before posting? What criteria makes BA the UK's flagship airline? Are you suggesting they serve routes for prestige?
Each of the above examples is the airline's main H U B. This gives an added bonus of adding to the point to point traffic making the route viable. Hence Lufthansa make money flying MAN-Germany as a proportion of people connect on to other destinations and due to clever accounting beyond most of us makes a route "viable". This option is not available to a UK carrier from the regions so the routes are not operated by BA, BMI ( mainline ) and are left to the locos with a cost base that works. This is why BA can offer connections over LHR and LGW only.

Skipness One Echo. The question posed by this thread was what would it take to get you to fly with BA...
Right now, not being on strike would help. However this is a make or break dispute that has been coming for 20 years or more. Read the thread in the Cabin Crew section, it is really quite interesting.

Are you seriously suggesting that BA's route to SSH (Sharlm El Sheikh) is full to the brim with bowler hat wearing, briefcase-carrying businessmen!? What about the Carribbean routes? Barbados? St Kitts? St Lucia? For the record I actually know more about economics than your average layperson, but you dont need to be an expert to know that businesses exist purely to maximise shareholder return

Congratulations on your economics. Presumably you also accounted for the fact that BA can charge the silly money in high season that only numpties in the South East with more money than sense will part with to fly direct? The LGW long haul routes have a similar profile with little competition, giving Orlando being the only one offering daily services from both BA and VS. This is also partly why LGW-JFK was never really intended for the long haul....The routes you list are sold as high yield leisure destinations and were until recently, the only part of BA making money. Go figure....

[Anansis]

Do people read before posting?

...

Each of the above examples is the airline's main H U B.

Have you read any of my posts? In a nutshell I'm suggesting that MAN has the potential market for both long haul and short haul flights (both point to point and connecting traffic) to make it a viable hub, an opportunity BA have overlooked in favour or consolidating in the South East. With FRA and MUC, LH have two long haul hubs in Germany (three once Berlin Brandenburg Airport opens). In any case the LH routes to Dusseldorf and Hamburg are not connections to major hubs (if they are, then that makes five hubs in Germany!:E). LH, AF and KLM also codeshare with intercity high speed railways. This is somthing BA does not do (and to be frank they couldn't, given the state of our railways compared to those on the continent).

What criteria makes BA the UK's flagship airline? Are you suggesting they serve routes for prestige? They are a British company based in Britain who market themselves as British (this is an argument rolled out earlier in the thread when someone suggested that BA have hubs abroad). No, they should not fly routes for prestige but flying BA simply is'nt an option for majority of British people. Thats a massive market they are missing out on.

The bottom line from my POV is this. I fly frequently from the north of England to South East Asia. Im a price sensitive economy passenger and I always look for the best deal (and by best I'm not necessarily saying cheapest). The best deal is never with BA. Ever.

Skipness One Echo. The question posed by this thread was what would it take to get you to fly with BA... Right now, not being on strike would help. However this is a make or break dispute that has been coming for 20 years or more. Read the thread in the Cabin Crew section, it is really quite interesting.

Agreed. In light of todays announcment, everything that has been discussed on this thread seems a little bit academic.

Just when you think it can't get any worse...

[Final 3 Greens]

Agreed. In light of todays announcment, everything that has been discussed on this thread seems a little bit academic.


Absolutely.

When I lived in London in the 1980s, some wag painted a message for motorists at the Chiswick end of the M4 "Good Morning Lemmings."

That seems to sum this CC action up eloquently.

[PAXboy]

Once again I present the Voice of Doom ...

Whatever it would take for folks to use BA premium cabins a whole lot more - it's waaaaay too late. I reckon the tipping point was about five years ago. With the failure to secure a meaningful partnership then (no matter whose fault it was) they will never recover. In due course, they will be the junior partner of someone else, the IB is a sideshow and not yet completed anyway.

There is no possibility for BA to climb back up the heap to anything like their former glory. YES they can become a small and well liked specialist LH carrier but the BA as we knew it is already gone.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Thought that was the plan with OpenSkies, it was the pilots who threw the hissy fit that time. The whole lot are living in the past, company simply needs to be shut down and LHR can be released for some decent new-breed airlines to realise its potential.

[bealine]

- post deleted - sorry

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Hi, bealine. I've read many of your posts with interest, so please don't think I'm 'kicking off'.

i fully accept that most First/Business pax are being paid for by companies, or by the very rich. Please remember that there are also a chunk of regular, loyal, J-Class pax who are paying with their own money [in my case from savings/pensions etc., augmented by accumulated BA Miles].

We [the OH and I] do that for our "comfort and convenience" ;)

Please don't forget the "Non-Business" pax in the equation - we don't have Corporate Deals, or other ties to BA.

[bealine]

Hi, bealine. I've read many of your posts with interest, so please don't think I'm 'kicking off'.

i fully accept that most First/Business pax are being paid for by companies, or by the very rich. Please remember that there are also a chunk of regular, loyal, J-Class pax who are paying with their own money [in my case from savings/pensions etc., augmented by accumulated BA Miles].

We [the OH and I] do that for our "comfort and convenience" http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Please don't forget the "Non-Business" pax in the equation - we don't have Corporate Deals, or other ties to BA.

I would never think you're "kicking off", Two-Tone-Blue. Unfortunately, I am but a small cog in the giant British Airways wheel. I am very grateful to the likes of yourself who spend your hard-earned savings/pension on our tickets.

[BAOREY]

Bealine

What an enlightening post and I think very honest and frank.

That being said I appreciate the fact that as a Gold card member I am held in disdain and not really wanted by the BA staff. The current industrial action has already made a good job of driving me away from BA but you have managed to put the icing on the cake and I will now spend MY OWN money elsewhere.

You people at BA deserve everything you get and the arrogance of its staff is staggering.

[bealine]

Sorry BAOREY - I had no intention of causing upset to anyone, and having re-read my post, it was conveying a message that I didn't intend.

I have deleted it pending a re-think!

[manintheback]

Make every BA manager travel four times a year economy long-haul as a passenger no special treatments. They might even learn something about their airline to the good.

The useless executive club - its hacked off more high-value customers than rewarded them. Dont offer incentives you cant provide and dont keep changing it.

[Capetonian]

Bealine : I had read your post before you deleted it and I felt it was a perfect example of BA management's haughty and condescending attitude to its customers. It confirmed all the reasons why I too will never fly BA again if there is an alternative.

This is not meant as a dig at you, quite the opposite. If people like you were in management positions the airline would probably be in a far better situation than it is at present.

[James 1077]

The useless executive club - its hacked off more high-value customers than rewarded them. Dont offer incentives you cant provide and dont keep changing it.


Got to agree with this!

The Air NZ FF program is by far the best that I have seen - you earn dollars when you fly and can spend those dollars on flights as if they were cash.

So I have just booked a ticket for the missus to accompany me on my next business trip using those dollars; didn't cost me anything (none of that fuel surcharges and taxes extra rubbish) and there were no limited seat availablity etc. Also as I booked a long way out it didn't even cost me much in terms of losing those dollars!

[Albert Salmon]

Of course BRITISH Airways should have flights from BRITISH regional airports to its major hubs.

That's what it says on the tin; why can't BA deliver the goods?

[PAXboy]

Uuuhhh, does American Airlines fly from every regional airport in the USA to it's main hubs? Why can't AA deliver the goods???? :zzz:

[Boss Raptor]

Heathrow-Bucharest economy return - same flight details/dates etc. - BA £480 - Tarom £305

Work it out BA management as to why I dont fly on BA!...and a couple of LCC are even less!

I am sure many of us could cite similar examples...

[ExXB]

Was burning my last BA Ex-Club miles (before they gave me another 10K for stress involved with almost strike).

Of particular note was the 4 1/2 hours we sat onboard on the ground at LHR on the 21st enroute to Vancouver. Seems they lost the key to the deicing truck (they couldn't have more than one at T5 could they) and with contaminated wings we couldn't take off before they deiced. We were offered one plastic cup of water, or an orange juice while we waited. Captain practically swearing in frustration, wasn't his fault was it.

I wasn't traveling in business, so can't say if they treated them better.

But at least they didn't cancel but they really need better contingency plans.

[profot]

What's good about BAs' product?

1. Cabin crew- generally excellent, certainly well trained, occasionally abrupt but don't we all have bad days?
2. Pilots- Well trained, selected for flying ability rather than willingness to work for peanuts, safety conscious
3. Aircraft - Sometimes tired and shabby but reassuringly maintained
4. Routes- Good
5. Fares- Mostly competitive
6. FF programme- Not the worst

The reason I no longer fly with BA - Senior management do not appreciate my custom therefore I have voted with my feet and honestly feel sad about it after many years as a regular flyer with them in J and F. In fact since they decided to not reply to my letters in reference to a complaint ( Yes that is plural) BA has lost out on approximately 30K of business from my small company and thats just in 7 months. I am not the only one who has walked and BA senior management are still clueless as to why the premium cabins are down by over 12%, I for one have been astonished by them

[Anansis]

Just had a quick re-read through this (occasionally heated!) thread. The one thing that strikes me more than anything is the sincere loyalty most people here seem to have to the BA brand (otherwise you wouldn't be discussing what it would take for you to fly with them :)). It must have taken quite a lot to drive a lot of you away from BA. Remember, we are a small cross section of their customer base. Imagine how many more people there are out there who must have similar opinions to the ones expressed here.

On paper it seems so simple. People WANT to fly BA. Taking money from people who want to give it to you should make for the easiest business model in the world. What on earth is going on at BA? The landing lights are on but it seems like the pilots are asleep in the cabin. I just hope that Paxboy is wrong with his 'voice of doom'...