Change of career

[stringerbell]

Hello - I'd like to pick the brains of any experienced pilots past and present. I am seriously considering taking the plunge by leaving a perfectly good job in the middle of a recession and beginning training to be a professional airline pilot.

I'm aware of the costs - both financially and time wise. What I'd like to ask is the following:

Assuming I pass the medicals (which I would do before embarking on this!) and given a sound academic record (educated to degree level, which on its own means nothing but I think indicates a minimum level of educational aptitude) what would you say is a realistic timescale to go from zero experience (beyond taking the controls of a Chipmunk whilst in the RAF cadets 25 years ago) to being qualified and in a position to realistically apply for the bottom rung on the airline pilot ladder?

Given my age this is a significant factor for me and please forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere....

Thanks in advance.

[Whirlygig]

Let's put it like this - you could qualify as a CPL/IR/ME fATPL before the recession picks up so no rush.

There are many threads on here about being "too old" so please read those.

Cheers

Whirls

[FlyBoyFryer]

Whirly is entirely correct - there are copious amounts of posts relating to your query...

Try:


http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/387645-too-old-make-my-dream-come-true.html
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/390796-atpl-dream-not-dream-approaching-34-a.html
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/393404-can-dream-reality.html
And lastly (suitably morbid!) - http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/394671-what-its-like-spend-65-000-not-get-job.htmlUltimately, up to you in the end... but informed decisions are strongly advised!

Best of luck.

[av624]

Why leave your job? Do it all modular? keep earning whilst training! :ok:

[stringerbell]

Cheers for all the replies guys and yes, the modular route would appear the sane way to do it. The only reason I was even considering the other way was my age and whether or not I could afford the length of time required on the modular route.

I am ploughing through all the posts and threads here - fascinating article about £65k to fly a desk. There is certainly an element of the grass being greener - especially when you've been in an office job for 15 years! Its early days yet, the medical is the first real investigatory step.

I cant help but think now may be a good time to make this change. The job market should (please God) be much improved in 2 years time and surely the flight schools would be open to negotiation with the current climate?

[greggx101]

a realistic timescale to go from zero experience (beyond taking the controls of a Chipmunk whilst in the RAF cadets 25 years ago) to being qualified

2 or 3 years modular - depends, some take a year to get PPL.

and in a position to realistically apply for the bottom rung on the airline pilot ladder?

10 years from now - When applicants may be sought.

[cjd_a320]

If you don't want to end up in the RHS of an A320 or 737 then go modular by all means....

If you do want the usual jet RHS ?
Then read the other threads on terms & conditions to see how things are evolving. Then read the last few pages of the CTC thread.


The airlines have wanted for years to do away with a two crew cockpit. They've finally found the next best thing.... by getting punters to pay to sit in the RHS after they've already parted with 65K plus.

If you think this mess will be over in 2 years then you'll be disappointed.

T&C
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment-38/

CTC
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a-186.html

[Dr Eckener]

The job market should (please God) be much improved in 2 years time
I really would not bet on that! There are still huge amounts of redundancies within the industry, and more to come. I'm looking at my second in less than two years. Don't give up the day job. If that 15 year desk job has been at the same place I can guarantee one thing - you will miss the job security. I know I do - I have made the change you seek. Think long and hard. I'm not saying don't do it, just think long and hard first.

[MIKECR]

Stringerbell,

I was in a similar situation.....nearly 14 years(im nearing mid 30's) of a good, solid, well paid career when I finally decided to take the plunge and go for CPL/IR. I could have stayed in my current job and retired at 50 with full pension and all the perks but I decided to take the leap and go for the career change. I already had my PPL and a couple of hundred hours by that time. I went on and finished the CPL/IR and ended up job hunting roughly 2 years ago(not a good time - things were starting to go downhill!!). Fortunately I was able to fall back on my previous career and keep myself in employment in the interim. Flying wise, in my spare time for the last 3 years i've been glider towing, parachute dropping, and even bit the bullet and got my FI rating. As absolute luck would have it however, I am now starting my 1st airline job before this xmas. Given the current climate, i've been incredibly lucky(unbelievebly lucky in fact!) to get it, it really is a chance a million. Perhaps i've been lucky getting the job in 2 to 3 years...some take longer, some less,some dont get a job at all. Its a big decision to make.. lots of cash, and lots of heartache! I guess im just one of the lucky(very!!) one's. The market looks very difficult for the next couple of years....have a "plan B" in the pipeline if things dont work out flying wise.:)

[12Watt Tim]

One warning. Demomonkey was mistaken in his choice. Integrated courses don't make people more employable. In the areas traditionally populated by later starters it tends to make you less employable.

[av624]

My advice would be to go for it! if you keep your secure job and go modular then you have no worries! thats my attitude anyway, and the route im taking myself. If i dont make it, its only MY money ive thrown away, but at least i would know i tried.

Modular may take slightly longer, but its the price i would pay to know i can pay the mortgage and not live on the bread line!

What ever you decide to do, good luck. :ok:

[lpokijuhyt]

I don't get it. If you make decent money at your desk job, why don't you stay there? Why not use some of your decent money to fly for fun? Go out to your local airport and buy a quarter share of a small Piper Cherokee or something like that and enjoy life. Your decision is delicate. It depends on being responsible vs. following your dream. Why not do both by doing this for fun at your local airport. You can buy the pilot shirt and stripes if thats what you are after. I would have said follow your dreams 3 years ago, but not now. OK, the industry may rebound in 2 years time, but do you honestly believe favourable terms and conditions will return? I just hate to see a person's love of flying get completely destroyed by the modualar/integrated/get me in a shiny 737 asap scheme. Just because you love something doesn't mean you should put all rationale on the shelf. Hell, I love to eat pizza, does that mean I should quit my job and open a pizza restaurant? Of course not. You need to listen to your brain as well as your heart. Good luck

[BoeingMEL]

Emplyment prospects are worse than grim at the moment..and there is almost certainly much worse to come. In my opinion you should at least get your PPL before deciding anything at all. If you've got your PPL by,say, early/mid 2010, you'll know if you really have the aviation bug and, if you have, you can submit yourself for that Class 1 medical. One step at a time my friend... you may be no spring chicken but there's no need to rush! Good luck anyway. bm

[Happy Wanderer]

Stringer,
I did what you're thinking of doing now just over three years ago and at six years older that you are too. I took VR from my previous job because I basically got fed up with it, I would have had to relocate to London, the then everance terms were favourable (but were set to diminish had I stayed with the company), I didn't have any dependents apart from a very supportive wife, and because I didn't want to go to my grave - even at this comparatively late stage in my life - having not achieved in life what I always wanted to do. All seemingly valid reasons. I got my fATPL via the modular route - it wasn't easy and I'd go along with anyone who says it gets harder the older you are. I'm not flying a shiny jet or even a TP for that matter, but I am paid a salary to fly, and to fly everyday. Whether I'll achieve the ultimate goal that I set out to achieve in 2005/6 remains to be seen, but certainly isn't being helped by the current parlous state of the aviation industry. To be honest, there isn't a day that goes by when I don't question whether I've done the right thing. I miss many things about my former life - the salary, the responsibilties, the relative security and challenges that go with working for a large company, the status even. The way I look at it now is that I moved on to another chapter in my life, and whilst I do think about the past, I love what I do. I think of it as a privilege and something that many people would love to do. The change has meant a number of sacrifices and adjustments, both for me personally and those around me. I would echo the 'head and heart' argument - think very, very carefully about this decision and if you do decide to go for it, commit to it 100%. The worse thing anyone could do in this situation is emabrk on the journey, but never reach the destination - wherever that is.

HW

[Whirlygig]

I found that I had more options open to me having followed the Integrated as opposed to the Modular route.Did you do both routes in order to form that opinion?

Cheers

Whirls

[cjd_a320]

Hope people have been reading the T&C threads...

The Thomson news of 137 fired & 21 LHS demotions should help with those rose tinted foogles....

http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5372305#post5372305

[Whirlygig]

I have never met anyone else who holds your opinion
Notwithstanding the fact that I doubt that we have actually met, you must have missed the oh-so-subtle implication in my previous posts as I also share the same views as 12WattTim.

In fact, you can't have read Pprune much at all as I would say the pro-integrated lobby is very much in the minority (that does, however, exclude all those pro-integrated readers who haven't actually started any flying training; they're not in a position to form an opinion, only to regurgitate marketing spin).

Cheers

Whirls

[Whirlygig]

Demomonkey, you only appear to be talking about airlines. Are they the only jobs available for fixed wing pilots? I thought there were more roles within the fixed wing fraternity just like there is within the rotary world.

And I didn't doubt your veracity of your own experience, knowledge or understanding, I doubted that you could have got to where you are without meeting/coming across people who do not believe integrated is best.

Cheers

Whirls

[G SXTY]

I had a look at this thread 24 hours ago and thought it was heading for another integrated v modular row – I wasn’t wrong . . .

Meanwhile, back at the original question:

Assuming I pass the medicals (which I would do before embarking on this!) and given a sound academic record (educated to degree level, which on its own means nothing but I think indicates a minimum level of educational aptitude) what would you say is a realistic timescale to go from zero experience (beyond taking the controls of a Chipmunk whilst in the RAF cadets 25 years ago) to being qualified and in a position to realistically apply for the bottom rung on the airline pilot ladder?

Start to finish, 14 – 18 months as a minimum, whether inte***ted or mod**ar. Age is not a problem in itself, as many, many of us changed careers in our late thirties and are now happily flying airliners. In your position I would be more concerned about whether there were any jobs around when I qualified, as the state of the job market is far more important than age when looking for a first (or indeed any) job.

As others have said, the job market is awful right now, and we are heading into the bleak winter season with one or two airlines looking decidedly unhealthy. Ergo, I would not be surprised if the job market gets even worse before it eventually improves. Realistically I would expect 2 to 3 years minimum before prospects for low-houred pilots really improve.

[quagmiregiggidy]

Sitting here having been made redundant a few days ago after my employer went into administration, I am tempted to say, ‘no don’t do it….. Ever!!! But the fact you’re asking this during this appalling time that may fall on deaf ears, no offence thats what I was once like.
The job itself is good, the flying, the people you meet/work with, it’s all the other headaches that you should be aware off before investing many many thousands of pounds of your hard earned cash into an uncertain future.
As I’m feeling particularly sorry for myself at the moment I will give you the ‘warts’ side of the career you desire.
Compare that then if you wish to someone who is having a good time of it at the moment and make your choice.
OK off with the rose tinted specs.
The training
Its long and tough, you will spend 12 months, or many more, without being able to socialise properly, and whenever you do take a break from the books you will feel guilty and find yourself back in them. It’s hard going and you will question yourself frequently.
The flying,
Hard work , expensive, and if your anything like me then you will give over your £600 each time you go flying in a light twin, wondering if you will ever really make it. Kind of takes the shine off it
The job search
So get through to this point, blue book in hand. CPL/IR/MCC sounds great doesn’t it? Right now, that’s about all you have, now it’s whether luck is on your side. You are now £60k to£80k down and you will feel like you have made it. Boy oh boy, you haven’t.
In fact I will go as far as to say you never really make it. Be it you with 250 hours and a blue book or some colleagues of mine over 50 years old with 10000 hours who no one wants to employ because of their age, or me, who with a fair few hours in the right hand seat cannot get a job in Europe because I am either a) not a captain b) got the wrong rating or c) not fluent in German, French or any other none aviation language.

So you strike lucky, you get a job. You are now subject to the most regulated profession in the world. Every 6 months you will lose sleep or at least feel very vulnerable as you enter the moving box and your licence is on the line. Every year you will be prodded and poked and if your heart so much as tickles itself, you will be out the door for a minimum of 6 months, or worst case, forever.
So your healthy, you do well in the simulator, you perform to a good standard on the line checks, you feel like you made it. Then you find that you need to move bases, not your choice. So the money you thought was adequate and serviced your loans is now halved as you have to commute from home, rent some digs. Couple that with being away from your family and you will question the day you ever started writing cheques to a training organization.

So you can put up with all that, then you go to work one day and find that your pass doesn’t work anymore, security don’t explain why, they just escort you away from the area. A call to your company doesn’t help as the phones are all engaged, so you phone your mate who is also sitting in his 6 by 6 room, wishing he was somewhere else. Only when you speak to him you find he’s upset, really upset, he has 2 kids, rents a house (had to sell his to fund his training) and it’s a week before Christmas.
It’s over mate, the companies gone under.
So when it sinks in and you are sitting there on Christmas morning watching your kids open their selection boxes as main presents, your throat becomes choked up and tears runs down your face………. Was it worth it for the pleasure of flying a plane? No it bloody isn’t!

Take that for what you will, I am sorry if it seems harsh, but that’s the reality for me and a lot of other ‘experienced’ guys and girls, let alone those newly qualified.
Enter this game at your peril my friend, don’t do it without some serious research and before you commit, ask yourself this. Do I want it that much?

One thing you can be sure if, there will be people in the UK today flying overhead as you read, who in a few months time will be feeling pretty much like I am today. Its an uncertain world and its going to be a slow slow recovery.

As for me , I have spent the last week sitting on this darn laptop sending of C.V.s to every place on the globe, as yet without reply, my only break, to sign on today at the job centre.
My future is probably going to mean leaving the UK, leaving my family for many months at a time to a country that given the choice, I probably wouldn’t even go to on a holiday. Oh I didn’t mention that, since I have been doing this ‘career’ I haven’t been able to afford a proper holiday.

There is a plus side to this job and please bare in mind I am not in the best frame of mind at the moment, but do take what I say as real because for me and many others like me it is all to real.

Best of luck

[loftustb]

Listen to Quagmiregiggidy, he's teling it like it is.

[caprisoni]

My 1st post here i think, well worth it to comment on quagmiregiggidy's one...man, my heart goes to you, truly emotional words. Portuguese natural, small country but as a lot of us, me too, with 33 and bored out of my mind having "inherited" a family business, decided a few years ago that i needed, not wanted, needed to give wings to a long overdue dream of mine. A dream, that a few years ago was thought only to be fulfilled by traditional heros, real supermen. Well, against all opinions and advices i decided it was the place to go, start my line training...

Had some things to my favour, single, one property to mortgage, and a fierce will to fly a big bird! 1st thing. medicals, all good i'm now one of the supermen who are able to go on...then i found pprune, started reading some posts, the traditional am i too old bla bla bla, and then came to senses...thousands of opinions and posts later, and despite the "oh they re the scaremongers of the business, they always have been around" speech of the training school boss, i've put away the idea of becoming a flyboy, probably a ppl one but line training, no, that i've come to terms that probly not for me...

All you newbies, think, rethink, and then think a little more before you take the plunge!!!

Best wishes to all, happy holidays and a wonderful xmas, specially to you quagmiregiggidy...

[no sponsor]

Quagmiregiggidy does indeed tell it like it is.

Flying is a selfish business.

I hope you get something soon fella. My airline (Jet2) is hiring. (But I guess you knew that already!).

Best wishes to you and your fellow ex-GSMers.

[redsnail]

Quagmiregiggidy,

I hope your luck changes soon, a very honest post. Good luck.

Wannabe's,

Take heed of Q's post.

[student88]

stringerbell - go for it if you think it'll make you happy.

Quagmire - I feel so lucky to be sitting here at home right now after reading your story. I honestly wish you all the luck in the world finding a new job. I hope you and your family have a great Christmas never the less.

S88

[Aceninja]

I stumbled upon this forum and have to say I am truly moved by what Quagmiregiggidy said. I hope your luck changes for the better soon, mate, just hang in there!

As to all the newbies, I am one myself who (only having a PPL at this moment) still wants to fly. At the moment I have a stable job that pays decent enough to be able to afford flight training on and off and although I wish the world economy will come back up in 2 - 3 years I know that it never ever might come back up to the good ol' days of Aviation (pre 9/11).

I also realize I might never even make it to an airliner/cargo or fly a big bird. In fact I might end up flying bush planes in Africa If I am so lucky. Forget the salary and the perks, I think every newbie who wants to change careers has to ask himself if it is worth spending the time and money on training only to fly a single engine puddle jumper (IF you are so lucky), let alone a Jet for a long many years to come...

I am not trying to be a wet blanket here, but trying to find a job in your backyard is not an option anymore. Leaving behind a family to fly in a foreign country with completely strange food/culture might not be easy as well. Just some food for thought.

Having said all this I firmly believe that you only have one life and at the end of it all, it doesn't matter how much money you have amassed, but rather how you have spent that journey and if you have had 'fun' along the way. Of course money wouldn't hurt either...

Just my 2 cents..

I wish you all a Merry X'mas and a Happy New Years. I hope the next year will be a much better one for us all.

Cheers,

-Ace