Getting into YSBK at night

[Roger Roger]

I'm planning a trip into Bankstown at night. Hope someone local can assist with this question on local procedures there.

If your arriving from 2RN at night, the tower is closed and 11C is the appropriate runway, what is the correct local entry procedure for entry into Bankstown.

Is overflying @ 1500' then descending on the dead side (north side), join crosswind appropriate or is it more appropriate to join upwind for Runway 11C?

If you choose to join upwind, do you join at 1000' or 1500'. If it's 1500' at what point do you start you decent to circuit height?

Save me a call to my flying school which they will never return.

Thanks in advance.

[apollo85]

Critical Reynolds - if you read it yourself you shall note there are no written procedures for YSBK when it is a CTAF..only a GAAP.

This considered it would make sense that it become your stock standard CTAF with 10NM calls etc etc, there is nothing stopping you from doing a straight in approach on the extended centerline from the west onto rwy 11

Though the norm ("local rules") at bankstown is to still carry out the GAAP procedures even when the tower goes to bed!

I have found 99.9% of a/c call in viz the GAAP approach points 2RN or PSP and if 11C is the active RWY most carry out a straight in approach. What you need to be careful of - is separating yourself from the endless amounts of 'bankrunners' doing the same at around 7.30ish and the 6 152 training aircraft in the cct who have very little situational awareness!!! It has been seen before a metro or jet coming into land straight in has had to go around twice due to a 152! hmmmm they are not so happy...

Quiet often if your finding it is quiet busy or the cct traffic is out in force - Joining upwind at 1500' and descending on the upwind leg is the safest option! Take note of CCT direction at night 11C is right cct...

Hope this clears things up!!

[PlankBlender]

mate, have a look at the CASA guide for Bankstown and follow the recommended procedure rather than what people here do or recommend which inevitably is a bit of a mix of 'styles' :}

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Visual Pilot Guides (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90007)

[JCJ]

FYI, I was doing circuits the other night ATC was asking arriving a/c to join upwind at 1500, they would then have to descend to be at 1000ft before joining downwind.

During CTAF hours, I would overfly, then join crosswind at mid-field.

Make sure you keep a good watch for traffic, as it can get quite busy.

[Stikybeke]

Plankbender's right.....therein lies the answers to all your q's. Remember by 2RN .....not below LSALT (2300) to within 3nm of CCT if YSBK becomes CTAF(R) which means probably a good idea to ask for a clearance back at 2RN from Syd Radar (124.55). ATC'll appreciate that.... This'll let them know what you're about and also keep you from trouble associated with inadvertently flying into that airspace above 1500ft on top of YSBK.... Big watch out for those in the circuit and transponder on Mode C please......Enjoy..:)

[Roger Roger]

Folks granted the VFG is gospel but sadley it does not go into the level of detail that apollo85 as provided.

I can't see any reference in the VFG on where to decent when joining upwind for RWY 11C.

Apollo85 thanks for the feedback I will use it in conjunction with the VFG just to make everyone happy.

Cheers

[apollo85]

CTAF (R) NVFR ARRIVALS TO BANKSTOWN - pg17 Sydney Basin Guide

"When operating under the NVFR into BK you are not permitted to descend below LSALT (2300 ft) until within 3NM of the aerodrome. Then, with the aerodrome in sight (either the runway lights or aerodrome beacon), you may descend into the circuit remaining within the lateral boundaries of the BK CTR. Generally, it will not be possible to maintain LSALT until within 3NM of BK without entering the class C airspace that overlays Bankstown above A015 and pilots should consider obtaining an airways clearance from Sydney Radar (124.55 Mhz) prior to arrival"

I've always been intrigued by how they got the the 2300 feet....

if you read the CAAP for NVFR there are a number of ways of calculating LSALT.

1. By visual navigational LSALT + 100' above all obstacles in 10NM of the planned track - if we consider flying into BK then we have to consider centerpoint tower as the jhighest obstacle.

2. By radio nav means - use IFR LSALT from ERC chart or calculate as per AIP 5.3.3 etc etc

Note it states

9.1.15 In flight, if the pilot of a NVFR flight can determine by
means of a visual fix that a critical obstacle has been passed, then
the aircraft can be descended to a lower altitude immediately
provided that the 1000' obstacle clearance is maintained for
obstacles ahead of that position. In other words, a new lower
LSALT applies. This procedure can be used as a stepped descent
for arrival at the destination aerodrome but is best planned preflight...

So if i am tracking CN-BK using the appropraite NDB's withi the 5,3,3 tolerance - centerpoint doesnt have to eb accounted and 2RN would be the highest object... therefore a new LSALT of 1800'?!?!?!?! i think (of the top of my head) is suitable. - When we consider 9.1.15 of the CAAP - i could arrive at 2RN at 1800' and procede to descend to make a striagt in approach on 11c without having the make a call to Syd Radar.

Again,....i'm just mulling things over -

What are ppl's thoughts

[Homesick-Angel]

"It has been seen before a metro or jet coming into land straight in has had to go around twice due to a 152! hmmmm they are not so happy... "

Stiff..If they choose to do a straight in at one of the busiest GA airports in the country, they take the risk that there will be conflicting traffic actually established inthe circuit.

(Not having a crack at you apollo but it riles me that people can get crabby at people doing what their fully within their rights to do.)

[kimwestt]

Stiff..If they choose to do a straight in at one of the busiest GA airports in the country, they take the risk that there will be conflicting traffic actually established inthe circuit.

(Not having a crack at you apollo but it riles me that people can get crabby at people doing what their fully within their rights to do.)

I can see that you are one of those operators "common sense be damned -I am in, and have, the right of way."
I have had a couple of go rounds in metro's when a little consideration fromn other pilots - eg extend downwind a little - would have let the ÖFFENDING aircraft land. There has been many times recently that the density of aircraft doing circuits has precluded the chances of another aircraft landing. As for the crack about joining the circuit in a metro together with training aircraft, has your obviously very tiny little brain had a thought about the various speeds these aircraft need to operate at. Whilst a training aircraft could be doing 80 or so kts on downwind, a Metro needs to around 130 to 140 kts to be safe. (any speed below that and a Metro is behind the performance curve).
It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out that in fact a Metro doing a straight in approach at BK at night is probly the safest practice by a long shot.
Might I add that there have been many times when pilots in the circuit seem to be more than happy to accomodate an inbound high performance aircraft.
So, as a final suggestion, why don't you pull your head out that little (or maybe it is very large) place you have it hidden in, and join the
real world. :rolleyes::=

[apollo85]

Homesick Angel - you very correct...An aircraft on a straight in approach must give way to a/c established on base and final - By the books your right! - By common sense you need a reality check...

I can promise it is MUCH easier and safer for someone to extend dwnd by a couple of seconds (and in a 152 this takes me about an extra 0.00001 of a NM) or go round from base and let a metro land than it is to have them 100kts faster than me up my ass rejoining the cct upwind and becoming sequence number 5 to 4 x 152's and a tecnam who conducting a cct the size of a sabre!!!!! - It is much less unnerving to know they are not searching for my pissy little white nav light on the back with a very dangerous closing speed!!!!

It is just like a car - sometimes defensive driving is the safest option!!!

[Rojer Wilco]

DAPS says the 15 mile MSA for YSBK is 2500 feet, for which you would need a clearance.

Obviously though, if you're within NVFR nav tolerances the LSALT will be slightly different depending on which way you're tracking to enter. It's your own responsibility to figure this out.

It's a CTAF. Monitor the frequency, make the calls and communicate with others. If it's suitable, make a straight in approach. It's safer, easier, and reduces your workload. It's easy to set yourself up for a long final using the BK NDB as a ref. If the traffic situation says that a SIA is not suitable, enter the circuit as per the guide and maintain traffic seperation as if it was any other airport.

Careful though. I vividly remember my first NVFR solo into YSBK many years ago. The lights of YSBK didn't look all that different to me from the lights around it (I learned to fly in the country). Remaining within the lateral boundaries of BK CTR can be a little tricky from vis nav at night if you're unfamiliar with the place.

These days I fly in to YSBK IFR during HN and don't normally encounter any real congestion preventing straight ins.

The short answer to your original question is that YSBK has no special HN proceedure.

[Back Pressure]

My thoughts on this are that any pilot of a slow aircraft should by rights be accommodating fast aircraft. Naturally if you are already in the circuit and set up for landing or touch-and-go then you have "right of way" but to demand this is poor airmanship.

The whole point here is surely to facilitate orderly flow of traffic (this is what AIP says towers are for ???). If I have to extend downwind to let a big dude in, then why the hell wouldn't I help out ? And if I found myself on final with a B200 or some such right up my clacker, then I would go round.

The way I see this is that those guys (gals) are working, whereas I am only playing, so let them get on with it.

Ever seen road traffic in Bali ? Drivers there know how to keep things flowing with a minimum of fuss, and everyone lets other vehicles in, and there is no road rage !!!

BP (waiting for someone to tell me how I know absolutely nothing)

[Homesick-Angel]

Il try and ignore the vitriol in your post kimwestt and just continue what i was getting at in more detail

your missing a vital point

Obviously a pilot with plenty of experience and confidence in their own ability (both flying and radio communications) is probably going to try to "do the right thing" , establish contact, extend downwind and do the courteous thing, but if you are flying a 152 in the cct at night, youre possibly new to night flying and may a bit overloaded and maxed out or at the least getting used to everything under different conditions.It actually could be a challenge just to trust your abilities to that extent under those conditions to do all those things.It may even be unsafe.Who knows?
But i still stand by the fact that we all need to use a bit of care and respect and not just crack the S#its because a 152 got in your way...Many of these guys may be doing the job your doing in a few years.

[j3pipercub]

Hahahahahaha, Homesick Angel, so you which flying school do you work for?

Yeah sure let's have a couple of metros and an ATR mix it up with the circuit traffic and apart from the 1 instructor in the 1 aircraft out of 5, none of them speak enough english to reach a level 4 competency. Sure, that's safer.

Care and respect huh? This from a guy who reckons it's 'stiff' if a metro has to go around. Riiiiiiight

j3

[Homesick-Angel]

Thats right J3....Stiff...if its for the reasons metioned..

note: if the pilot of the 152 happens to actually know what they are doing, and decides to chop out a metro, then things change and they should be hung by their nipples from the control tower until they realise the error of their ways:}

[j3pipercub]

What? Who? No?!!?! How???

I'm racist because I expect someone who I share airspace with to be able to communicate clearly and concisely their intentions and position so we don't kill one another??????????? You're right, that is completely racist. Maybe next time I won't request clarification for the third time and hit him instead. Would the ensuing fireeball make me not racist??

You still didn't tell me which flying school you worked for though.... Cmon give me a hint... Or is this vehement attack on bank runners and metros stemming from the fact that YOU are the instructor in the circuit doing the babysitting????

And you still don't get it. You seem to think that just cos someone has a right of way, they should take it and screw the circumstances vs using a little common sense.

j3

[Tidbinbilla]

There's another thread running regarding airmanship. Forcing your right-of-way shows a distinct lack of this increasingly rare quality. Professional courtesy is not limited to professional pilots.

Now, let's get back on topic.

TID

[The Wawa Zone]

Ahhh ?
Yeah, I'd start off by reading the CASA docs, and ERSA !

As well as that, don't use ground lights for visual nav, there are just too many ambiguous combinations and the light acft lane strobes from the north are a joke.

The MQD 176 Radial south, that should line up with the BK and SY NDB's. Get an ETA from a fix on the 176 radial abeam (thats 90 degrees..) the Richmond NDB

From the west; 2RN direct to the BK NDB (famous BK Twin NDB approach :) )

From the NW, the good old BK NDB should still be on the SY 265 (?) Radial at 9.4 miles.

All the above, just work out you upper and lower altitudes to be at along the way, until the BK NDB needle goes twang. Once you're over the BK NDB, just do your favorite turn direction away from Black Charlie's Hill, then into whatever circuit you want. First practise every combination of circuit entry's from the NDB in day VMC, so you can verify terrain clearance.
You can always hold over the BK NDB at 1000' until the rain stops, and it looks just like a real circuit !

Separation ? Yeah, cool, unless they're saving face by not using their Engrilch language skills.

Then off to the Nam Foong Chinese for a Green Curry and a Crowny, unless its 01:00 again...

Bank Runners is spelt with capital B and R.

(You know you are close to BK when you start hearing the whinging, but there are some approach plates in DAP as well)

[apollo85]

too true -
bankstown rwy lighting on low/med intensity is barely visible until over the top!!!

another classic nav tool down thre lane - considering those strobes when headed southbound are just a pain to see

dial up 1224 on the adf - it is a radio station right at prospect!!!! : D

and you can have a great old rock out to abc radio talkback on ident!!!:8

[kimwestt]

All the little tips and tricks are good - but as someone else said - make sure that you practice them in daytime vmc. Don't forget one very experienced pilot (FIGJAM type) nearly cleaned up the BK tower with a home grown approach a while ago. He still reckons he is the ants pants and a hero. The guys and gals in the tower are still washing their undies.
Practice - practice - practice.:ok:

[The Wawa Zone]

I said dat :) !

Dunno about using the little broadcast stations; some of those are pretty small and dodgy (Arab singing is good, though..) It would be a lot harder for the ABC to start dragging 2RN down the expressway.

Wonder how many people plot all the navaids and locators around Sydney onto a VTC, to work out lead-in's to BK and CN (and RIC, but not HOX anymore..) ?