Israel helicopter crash

[Fanda_2007]

BBC News - British man killed in Israel helicopter crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8379811.stm)

British man killed in Israel helicopter crash


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/46804000/jpg/_46804470_crash_ap.jpg It is suggested Mr Arvanitakis worked in the aviation industry

A British man died in a helicopter crash in Israel on Tuesday, the Foreign Office has confirmed.
Roberto Arvanitakis was killed when the helicopter crashed in the Mediterranean Sea near the coastal city of Netanya, a spokeswoman said.
All four people on board died, including three Israelis.
Israeli police said Mr Arvanitakis was not living in the UK. The Jewish Chronicle, a British newspaper, said he was a businessman based in Cyprus.
It also said he worked in the aviation industry.
A spokeswoman for the Foreign Office said: "We can confirm the death of a British national in a a helicopter crash off the coast of Israel on November 24.
"Consular assistance is being provided to his family."
The other three victims were named by the Jewish Chronicle as Ran Lapid, 49, who was flying the aircraft, Hadar Shavit, 39, who also worked as a pilot, and Yoav Tamir, 35, co-owner of Tamir Airways which owned the helicopter.
The cause of the crash was not immediately clear.


I am curious as to why there has not been any comment or feedback on this incident. Eye witness said rotor detached and aircraft went into sea. No record of type.

[9Aplus]

It was R44, 4 people in R44 usually means overweight,
3 Israeli one Brit on board. Pilot was one of two rotary wing
Examiners there. There was some speculation about TGB explosion.

RIP

[blakmax]

Hmmm Blade detached? I suggest you read my posting on the recent AW109 "ground resonance" posting.

[lelebebbel]

It was R44, 4 people in R44 usually means overweight,


Right... so you already know how much each of them weighed and how much fuel they had onboard. You should call the aviation authorities down there and offer your help. I'm sure they were flying "much too low" and "spinning out of control", too...


The first "p" in "pprune" is for "professional". Think about it.

[9Aplus]

usually = sometimes (just in this case)
hope you are right....and R is for Rumour

[bluesafari]

Blakmax,
rumoured blade detached on R44 off Israeli coast, rumoured A109 ground resonance incident in Poland, sorry dear boy, but I don't see a connection, please elucidate further

[helimutt]

It was R44, 4 people in R44 usually means overweight,
3 Israeli one Brit on board. Pilot was one of two rotary wing
Examiners there. There was some speculation about TGB explosion.


a/. usually overweight????:D
b/. TGB explosion????

Most ridiculous thing i've read on an internet forum in a good while. You really know your stuff then!

Next we'll hear Frank Robinson say only 3 seats to be used in the 44 in future?

[JTobias]

This was wideley reported last week. A number of witnesses reported that they observed the tail rotor (or tail rotors) detach before then seeing the aircraft spin violently, and then crash into the sea.

I visit Netanya every month and the main aircraft used in Israel (in a civilian capacity) are Robinson 22 and 44 with the odd Jet ranger. I think there maybe 1 or 2 MD500's in use too.

Choppers fly up and down the coastline every 5 minutes and Sde Dov, the airfield the aircraft departed from is just slightly inland. It is in fact a military airfield with a civilian section.

Not at all good news.

Joel

[lelebebbel]

posted on another helicopter forum:

Here's TV footage of the helicopter during the accident flight, while still underwater, and after it was lifted out of the water.

For those of you who haven't brushed up their Hebrew - One main rotor blade broke close to the hub. The tail rotor did not disintegrate, but the accident investigator says that the rotor blade chopped the tail boom after it broke.

nana10 - ?????: ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? - ????? (http://news.nana10.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=680988)

[blakmax]

Hi bluesafari

If you read my posting on the AW109 thread, you would see that I describe a blade failure mode which is relatively unknown, but for which I have some evidence. My comment relates to that failure mode and has nothing to do with geography. Please read that posting and comment further after that if you wish.

If the blade failed at the root, then there is a precedent. Just google aair200302820_001.pdf but that is only relevant if the blade was the old construction which had blind fasteners to attach the spar to the root fitting. Later models used through fasteners.

I am aware of one incident where apparently the blade failed and the remenants of the spar cut off the boom. My hebrew is non-existent so I could not download lebebbel's link. However the pciture of the blade on the beach appears to be missing most of the aft section of the blade, hence the reference to the AW109 ground resonance case where the aft sections of two blades are also missing.

Before anyone jumps down my throat with the usual "wait for the report", I am still waiting to see anything official from the similar accident over Panama City which ocurred very early this year.

Regards

blakmax

[9Aplus]

@helimutt
a/. usually overweight????:D
b/. TGB explosion????

Most ridiculous thing i've read on an internet forum in a good while. You really know your stuff then!

Next we'll hear Frank Robinson say only 3 seats to be used in the 44 in future? I am here for your entertainment only....but first u must improve your
reading skills.
4 seats filled in R44, maybe air-condition too, and no more than 5 min of avgas,
fly like true dream...:D
Griffin Helicopters | Accident Database (http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/accidents.asp?manufacturerkey=&ACType=R44&OrderBy=Date+DESC&acregn=&mostrecent=&Cause=&detail=&Filter=&exclude=&since=&until=&Day=&Month=&Year=)

*comment is not related to above incident

[k12479]

Could someone please explain what a 'TGB Explosion' is?

[tu154]

9A Plus, I really tried to write a post explaining how you can actually fit 4 reasonably sized people in a 44, even a floated one, and put a useful fuel load in without exceeding MGW. In fact, only this morning I carried out a commercial flight with 3 pax, (shock horror), I managed to legally do the flight, with full tanks! (OK one was a child and the guys wife was fairly trim).

But instead, all I can come up with is....TROLL :ugh: :hmm:

[SilsoeSid]

I am curious as to why there has not been any comment or feedback on this incident.

First word of thread title might be a hint !

[JTobias]

Silsoesid,

I'm confused, please elaborate!

Joel :ok:

[9Aplus]

Back to the subject
BMAX your light on right track?!

Last week's Netanya chopper crash ruled technical failure | Headlines News | Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1259243034908&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

According to a report presented to Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz on Sunday, last week's crash of a civilian helicopter off the coast of Netanya was caused by a technical failure in the chopper's blade.
The blade hit the helicopter's tail end, which then proceeded to detach as a result of the force of the collision. Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz has ordered the parts of the downed helicopter be taken in for further investigation.
There were three Israelis, and a British businessman on the "Robinson 44" helicopter, none of whom survived.

[tu154]

That seems all very simple and clear. I wonder if that accident investigation group are available to go elsewhere. Seems like other accident investigations would take a lot less time if investigated by 9A and his preferred group. :rolleyes:

(P.S. just so it's clear for that particular clod, I'm being ironic, look it up).

[9Aplus]

definitely a must-read for you.....:sad:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/222289-r22-r44-blade-delamination-10.html

[ascj]

9A lets review the weight stats on r44s
MGross for raven I 2400lb
standard fuel 184lb
useful load withstandard fuel 774 lb

So 774lb /4= 193.5lb
or 87kg. not unreasonable
or raven II 816lb remaining with standard fuel. If you add aircon take off 20 lb note aircon is only available for ravenII and clipperII.
Now a clipper I with floats leaves 709lb or 177lb (80kg per person standard fuel). still not totally unreasonable.:ok:

[blakmax]

Hi ascj. Thanks for the rational explanation of the issue of weight. It actually shows that A9+ can under some circumstances be correct. I think that this and other threads would benefit if responses were as logically expressed in preference to the outright smack-down with no rational details to back up the abuse. Score a brownie point for us convicts, what?

Regards

blakmax

[tu154]

In certain circumstances he is completely correct. You take certain Raven ones or Astros, and you just can't put four, ahem, sturdy individuals in them and expect to be able to put a useful fuel load in and be under MGW.

However that's not to say that every R44 that goes flying with 4 up is overweight. Is the point I was trying to make, possibly badly.

Raven 2 MGW is 2500 lbs, four of me (190 lbs) gives me an available fuel load of 23 usg in the Clipper 2 I fly most days (at about 15 USG per hour fuel burn).
In the Raven 1 and Astro, forward CofG can be more of a limiting factor than all up weight. With two larger persons you can be out of limits on forward CofG before you hit MGW. The Clipper is a bit more useful in this regard. Must be the extra skid length at the back of the skids, but where I would have severe issues with pax arrangement in a non floated machine, doesn't matter much in the Clipper. :ok:

[R44Israel]

The Israeli CAA has published today an AD for all R22 and R44 models, suspending CofA of the aircraft until an NDT of the main rotor blades is carried out.

According to the AD, Initial investigation revealed that the accident was caused by delamination of the rotor blade that subsequently caused the honeycomb to separate from the rotor spar.

[9Aplus]

:D for CAA

[blakmax]

R44Israel

I sent you a private message. I note this was your fist posting, so you may not be fully aware of PMs. The link is located just above the log out link/

[JTobias]

R44Israel,

Are you a chopper pilot (private or commercial) or connected with the industry in some way in Israel?

PM me if you would prefer to answer that way.

Joel

[R44Israel]

I'm a private pilot

[HeliPilot1]

I had the pleasure of touring Israel with my wife this summer and logged 3.5HRS in 4X-BDM. Unbelievable to think 4 months later 4 people died in the very same machine.

[9Aplus]

@tu154
0519 Robinson R.44 Astro N7184X 08.10.98 ...02.99 » 4X-BDM
It seems, in accordance to above.....that R44 was Astro.... 11 years old :sad:

http://i1.planepictures.net/40/61/1130000524.jpg

[JTobias]

R44 Israel,

Ive sent you a PM

Joel :ok:

[JTobias]

Helipilot1

I've sent you a PM.

Joel :ok:

[JTobias]

R44 Israel

Do you have a link to the AD. I cant find one on their CAA page.

Joel:ok: