Private V Commercial

[CitationJet]

Seeking views on the following -

If a pilot donates a sight seeing flight to a community group which then either raffles or auctions that flight off to raise funds, would that flight be deemed a private operation?

The pilot and aircraft owner are not receiving any compensation or reimbursement.

[eapilot2009]

Someone is selling a seat (or up to 3 seats?) for a scenic to the general public. Don't have the regs to hand, but that makes it commercial, IMHO

The pilot and aircraft owner are not receiving any compensation or reimbursement.

I don't think that's relevant (something about cost-sharing, but my memory may be wrong here)

[startingout]

Would it not be the same idea as Angel Flight then, a charitable venture where you provide services of the aircraft whilst benefiting the community for no reward? maybe just a tax write-off....

[Dangnammit]

My understanding is that a private flight is one that is cost shared by up to 6 people, after which the owner pays for the lot (private jets etc).

If someone or an organisation profits from the sale of tickets, I think that is deemed to be a commercial flight.

Someone will know for sure

[HTFU]

How is casa going to find out unless it's openly advertised,
and also why do ya think they're going to worry about such small fry technicalities, call it private ops, the raffle tickets got nothing to do with it

[rioncentu]

I asked CASA the very same thing some years ago and they said it was a private op and was OK.

I don't have their response as it was some time ago.

Part of a raffle prize for the kids kindy was a private flight with me.

Winner never contacted me so it never happened but was all OK.

[VH-XXX]

How is casa going to find out unless it's openly advertised,
and also why do ya think they're going to worry about such small fry technicalities, call it private ops, the raffle tickets got nothing to do with it


Great idea HTFU. I'm gonna get this travel agent mate of mine to sell tickets for me to fly some people all over the country but I won't advertise it, so when they rock up to the airport and jump in my plane it will just be a private flight because I didn't sell the seats.

[Horatio Leafblower]

XXX

is there a difference between entering into a contract for carriage and buying a raffle ticket?

Might have to dig out the old Contract books and check.

Skipping the analysis of the contract for a second, it would be interesting to see the (civil) legal outcome if it all turned to custard - what duty of care do the organisers owe the winner of the flight?

Could turn a tidy $2000 raffle into a very nasty legal bill :ooh:

[Peter Fanelli]

My understanding is that a private flight is one that is cost shared by up to 6 people, after which the owner pays for the lot (private jets etc).


You have the cart before the horse there, cost sharing does not make the flight private.
Cost sharing is permitted on a private flight up to 6 participants.
A private flight does not have to be cost shared, the pilot can pay for all of it.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Please read CAR 206, then all the case law, CASA policy blah blah, then read CAR 206 again. And then be very careful, courts give bush lawyers' imaginative interpretations of the law very short shrift.

"Commercial" or "hire an reward" or lack of same, is NOT the determining factor in the legal classification of a/the flight.

For example, a museum with annual subscription members had a DH-82, membership got you a ride in the Tiger Moth, once a year.

The court found that the Museum had contravened CAR 206, they should have had an AOC and all that requires. Originally "CASA", (in reality a local FOI) had told them it was OK, as long as they didn't "advertise", whatever that had to do with it.

If you are going to rely on CASA "advice", it must be in writing, and signed by a delegate with the authority to make the determination. Otherwise it is just an opinion of somebody whose salary is paid by CASA. Then re-read CAR 206 again, it has been interpreted very broadly over the years, there is no "black and white" simple answer to anything to do with CAR 206.

But there have been many, many successful convictions.

Tootle pip!!

[HTFU]

Ok how's this... you let the people buying tickets know UP FRONT that the prize includes a ride on a PRIVATE flight case closed.
Or hows this you sell 1000 raffle tickets for $2 each, draw 3 winners, cancel the flight due to candy ass casa legislation then refund the 3 winners $2 each end result fund raised $1994 for charity..
oh and VH-XXX if you get that private ops scam up and running you can count me in only if it means twin time:E

[PyroTek]

What if, by "joining" a specific organisation (let's say, a club of sorts) for a $2 fee, with the membership you also get a free entry into the competition to win the joyflight? Private or Commercial?:}
Pyro

[kalavo]

Buy cases of oranges and apples, and offer a piece of fruit for the cost of the fare "buy a piece of fruit, get the flight for free)... it worked for Ansett (and encouraged healthy eating!).