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Crescentpirate
23rd Nov 2009, 12:01
Unfortuntely I don't have the luxury of having my parents fund my flying. I also do not have the A-levels to attain sponsorship throughout airlines. Are there any other options I can take, maybe getting sponsorhip by another company or something somehow? I'm willing to go into debt, possibly unrecoverable debt for this job because i know given the chance ill make it. I just need to know what my option are. I'm from a single parent family and my mother is on benefits. its virtully impossible for me to acquire the 50,000+ to do my integrated frozen ATPL.

Anybody in a similar situation or have been? I'm not doing A-level maths and physics, they were never my strong points mainly due to my school. I'm inbetween leaving A-levels and focusing on the relevent stuff i should know before joining the ATPL course, like practising maths and science. Oh and another thing, my family owns no property so i cannot hold it for assurance. I'm also 19 years of age, i feel i really should be on the road by now and that i'm running out of time.

Piloting is all i've wanted to do. I am aware that the industry is more 'who you know rather than what you know', its not too much of a big problem, but getting the money is. These oxford kids have it easy i tell you haha.

davey147
23rd Nov 2009, 12:12
Hi

I was once in your possition, and the answer is simple.

All you need to do is get a job! earn the money and save. Thats the way I did it, and thats the way most people without any cash do it.

You are 19 and have plenty of time, theres no need to rush. Finish your education, get a job and save.

It took me 8 years to get the £50k+ required for flight training, I saved virtually every penny I earned. Yes it was hard, I had no life! but if you want it enough thats what you do.

I was one of the lucky few that completed flight training completely debt free!!

Good Luck...

flying_shortly
23rd Nov 2009, 12:15
Get a job and live the frugal life.

It's tough but that's the only way.... U won't get credit and you probably won't get sponsorship.

ripanrocks
23rd Nov 2009, 12:50
Work tremendously hard & try to save every penny.
While doing your flight training, dont look at the big flashy names, just look for those places where you can get the best training with the minimal costs.
If you're impatient just like me, then maby a bank education loan might be the way out, provided you are sure enough that you can clear yourself up from the debts soon after you are done training.

Best of Luck...I'm also on the same boat :ok:

destinationsky
23rd Nov 2009, 13:04
look at modular courses instead of integrated, in other words, do the training as and when you can afford it!
I'm 25 and only just completed my ppl. Time is not ticking for you at all. Bear in mind that a lot of people don't get into flying until their 30's!

Dane-Ger
23rd Nov 2009, 13:17
the beauty of modular training is that you don't have to wait until you have saved up all the money to start, you can get a job and start training now. If you live on the cheap, you can easily get at least a couple of lessons a month and in a years time you will have a PPL.

You can then study ATPL distance learning for under £1000 which will keep you going for another year and a half. Whilst doing this, join a flying group to build your hours cheaply and start getting to know people within aviation.

these first steps are easily attainable for anyone who wants it enough, It of course requires sacrifice, but then what doesn't!

The expensive part comes later, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Lets face it, you have time on your side and just now there is no rush! good luck!

regards
D-G

Edit - this is of course after you finish your A-levels! a very important point I forgot to add!

irishpilot1990
23rd Nov 2009, 14:00
get your A-LEVELS, college degree and graduate paying job and start saving.
If you go to college and get decent job then
save first for PPL..take a holiday for 3-4 weeks to florida and attain ppl
come home,return to job and part time ATPL study and exams(over about 1 year) and at the same time your saving for CPL/IR.
with ATPLs done you have something like 2 years to attain CPL..so save save save
career break for start of cpl/ir...if loads of aviation jobs you can probably leave your job if your made too.need 3 months.Then you are left with: Frozen ATPL, no bank loan/interest, loads of pilot jobs,
or worst case scenario: Frozen ATPL, small loan, few pilot jobs but at least career/experince to fall back on and resume normail life!!!This is what I would have done if time was turned back!:ok:

av624
23rd Nov 2009, 14:12
You have 36 months from the date of your last ATPL exam i believe, so 3 years to complete CPL/IR. You seriously dont need to get into debt if your smart about your choices! you have plenty of time on your hands!

Getting into debt in the current situation with no guaranteed job at the end is a bad move in my book! get a job and save! worse case scenario if you dont make it for one reason or another at least you wont be paying the debts off for the rest of your life!

Take it easy :ok:

Cirrus_Clouds
23rd Nov 2009, 14:23
I was in your place many years ago within the last years of college, looking through books on career options. I knew what I wanted to do since about 6 years old (strange but true) and got involved in everything to do with aircraft. When leaving college I knew that flying cost between £40,000-£100,000, but where was I going to get that sort of money?

My parents didn't assist me, so it basically meant, as stated above, get a job and start saving for a PPL. I decided not to go to Uni, as that would result in debt and I knew I would be getting into debt at some point through a flying loan. So I decided against this, to increase my chances of loan for flying (even more important in times like now with things called banks).

It's taken me 10yrs so far, but I've been patient (not been easy though). Been through a number of low points, even Sept 11th and that was a low, but kept at it. I have now achieved a PPL, Night Rating, IMC Rating (Part Sponsored btw!!) and now studying for ATPL’s with the first set of exams coming up shortly and not in debt, but in profit!!

Btw I quit my job in a recession to get the study done and go into part-time work, that says a lot in itself! But I could afford to do that and I turned a massive negative of my life for the past year into a massive positive and I feel great for doing so! :ok: ...just wasn't easy making the decision and taking the step itself, but I knew what I had to do.

I’m just pacing things for when to complete the CPL/IR/MCC and the loan will therefore be only a fraction of that massive figure of £40-100k, plus the parents are potentially willing to assist with a lower figure having done most of it yourself! :cool:

So with patience, hard work, luck and time this is still achievable. I think you’d feel a greater sense of achievement having gone through the challenge in financing it over time, rather than the parents giving you the cash on a plate and potentially having to pay them back later. I know what I’d prefer, but no one said life was easy!!

I know a quite a few pilots, most of them went through the modular route and have all made it to flying a jet.

I'd also recommend you have a look through the requirements for training each module plus having a look through the CAA's document called LASORS - this is like the bible of aviation, explaining the duration you have before each licence/rating expires - very useful info for that business/training plan! ;)

But if you want it, you’ll find a way to do it!!! :ok:

XXPLOD
23rd Nov 2009, 17:58
Do complete the A-levels. Time is very much on your side, the jobs market is unlikely to pick up for 3+ years. Those A-levels will potentially secure you a better job with which to fund your training. Importantly, they are also a fall back should flying not work out for whatever reason. They demonstrate to a potential employer a certain amount of ability and application.

Also, get your Class 1 medical done, before you start making career defining decisions to be a pilot.

Mickey Kaye
23rd Nov 2009, 18:51
My advice is not to get into debt.

I know one person who left school at 15 worked 60 plus hours a week cleaner, forklift truck driver, baggage handler and by the time they where 20 they had a frozen ATPL.

It all went a bit pair shaped when they lost their medical at 23. The fact that they had no debt was their saving grace. It allowed them to forge a career away from aviation.

It does happen so be sensible.

ei-flyer
23rd Nov 2009, 21:50
do NOT go back to doing A Levels now. Unless you're planning on going to uni, they won't help you diddly squat. In two years you'll be eligible for mature learning at uni anyway should you need it, so what's the point? Airlines don't care. What a waste of time when, as people say, you should be working and saving hard. Sounds good to an interviewer as well.

that's only my exp though, and I don't even have gcses, so excuse the bias!

why anyone would be suggesting for this guy to do a uni/college degree now is beyond me, he's already told us that every penny in his life must be earnt before it's spent, why go down a road of piling on more debt? don't go, take the sting out of the tail somewhat and do what you love. I did and it worked.

12Watt Tim
24th Nov 2009, 00:06
I wondered why you mentioned an integrated course. That is the most expensive option, and impossible to combine with work so requires at least a year's complete loss of income. You also say you know you'll make it. You don't, sorry to tell you. You think you will make it, but you must accept that those who don't (fewer than the pessimists here will tell you) all thought the same. Keep that in mind, it is a factor in your decisions.

As for running out of time, you're not. That feeling is good, as you will need to keep working hard and not sit back, but you do have more than adequate time to do this with hard work and sacrifice.

If you're English ignore Irishpilot and don't even think about university. A-levels might be a wise idea, but no employer I know of in European aviation requires a degree for pilots. The debt you will acquire will set your ambition back several years unless you become a lawyer, and in that case specialise in corporate law, rake in the money and enjoy flying as a hobby.

Good luck!

mi2ka.finland
24th Nov 2009, 09:46
Hi,

I've not managed to read a lot of the replies but here's what I've done / am doing...

I started flying when I was 16, at the time I was working for £3.36 an hour at Sainsburys. My parents refused to pay a penny, and they wouldnt even take me to the nearest airfield so I had to cycle the 12 miles. It took almost 4 years to get my PPL through completly self funding. After finnishing at school, I went on to do my A-levels and then a degree (again self funded). Whilst at college/University I was working full time to pay for the flying and the education. I have now got a graduate job and am saving every penny I can for flying. I did the hour building over my time at university and also worked at the local airfield getting to know a few pilots. I am now in the process of starting my ATPLs which I hope to have done within a year.

So, as a few other people have said, earn some money and take it step by step.

Once I have done my ATPL exams and hold a CPL licence I will consider taking a loan to help me get to at least instructor stage.

Good luck

Genghis the Engineer
24th Nov 2009, 10:57
Some suggestions:

(1) Join the RAF

(2) Join the Army Air Corps

(3) Join the Fleet Air Arm

(4) Get a job, work, live cheaply, pay as you go through the modular route. Best of all, get a job in aviation somewhere - whether that's as cabin crew or barman.


A few further thoughts:

- At 19 you are nowhere near running out of time. If you were 40, maybe.

- You say you want to be a pilot; rather than have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with airliners. Good. That means you can consider military flying, becoming a microlight instructor, commercial balloon pilot...

- "Who you know, not what you know"? - at the higher levels of job hunting maybe, at working level, no - it's what you can do and how you present yourself, everything else is just fluff.

- You don't need integrated. Virtually nobody needs integrated. It's just marketing spin and a huge price markup on a good product - the majority of working pilots trained through a modular route of some sort.

- PPL/night/IMC at 19 is actually very impressive. Don't put yourself down, you're on track and doing well. (For the record, by my 20th birthday I had slightly under 16 hours. To date my career has, whilst perhaps in odd directions, has been damned good fun, and all about flying.)

G

12Watt Tim
24th Nov 2009, 13:04
There is some "who you know" at all levels I would suggest Genghis - however you have already proposed the solution. If Crescentpirate works in the aviation business, in whatever capacity, he will get to know people. You know what a small world this is!

Genghis the Engineer
24th Nov 2009, 13:17
There is some "who you know" at all levels I would suggest Genghis - however you have already proposed the solution. If Crescentpirate works in the aviation business, in whatever capacity, he will get to know people. You know what a small world this is!

It is a small world - but my experience is that the main thing that follows you around is your fowl-ups (my biggie from 1996 still gives me trouble on occasion :ouch: ). If you haven't got any, then people mostly just look at your CV and make their mind up. Of course, knowing people does help find out where vacancies exist.

G

Crescentpirate
26th Nov 2009, 10:02
I appreciate all your comments. However i see that the word 'years' and so on pops up frequently.

I understand i am undertaking a career in which most of us were dreaming about when we were toddlers. But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking haha.

Flying is flying, i'd do it voluntarily if i could because its what I'd love to do. But there is money to be made in aviation and i really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.

My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me and definately before he reaches his thirties. I see his videos he uploads on facebook. I am very happy for him but i get butterflies in my stomach when i watch saying 'i should be up there as well'. I feel like i've wasted so much time and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job.

Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated. Worst case scenario, i can't pay the debt, what they going to do? nothing...So i can't get good credit on a car or whatever at least i had my chance to do it and do it at an age in which i was still young.

I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.

Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated? I think i read on cabair website that its a 'preferred' method. Unsure if that applies to the shool itself as being the preferred or speaking on behalf of airlines.

K.Whyjelly
26th Nov 2009, 10:50
My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me

and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job

Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated?

I admire your desire to get into the aviation industry Crescentpirate I really do. I was the same when I was your age, dead keen to be an airline pilot and would have done anything (within reason!!) to achieve my aim. Fortunately for me in those days you could go on an AFI course with 150hrs and that's what I did. It was a long slog but I eventually made it to where I am now............................facing possible redundancy. :hmm:

I hope you read the aviation press and keep up to date with happenings within the industry because along with the demise of XL, Zoom and SilverJet, airlines are looking at cutting back on their pilot workforce, sometimes quite dramatically. BA, Virgin and now bmi have announced pilot job losses..................79 captains and 50 F/O's at bmi mainline and 27 Captains and 22 F/O's at regional. bmiBaby has also lost somewhere in the order of 25% of its pilot workforce. That's a lot of very experienced and current guys being released into a tiny marketplace.

So yes your friend will be a pilot with a professional licence before you and I really, really do understand how badly you want to do this job, but the harsh reality is that your friend will be unable to secure a job (unless exceptionally lucky) especially when you think of all the young F/O's that bmi will release on the market with 500-2000hrs on the A320 and all the 737 rated guys from Baby.

It took me the best part of 11 years from gaining my PPL to securing my first RHS on a jet with a lot of sh1tty flying jobs in between (including going abroad for a number of years). All I can say is be realistic (easy to say but not to do within aviation) and read all you can here on Pprune and in the aviation/business press and don't make any rash decisions which you WILL regret

Dr Eckener
26th Nov 2009, 11:00
But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible
Why ask for advice from experienced pilots who have been in your situation if you are too busy being part of the 'me now' generation to heed said advice anyway. :ugh:
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?

12Watt Tim
26th Nov 2009, 11:14
Why integrated? It doesn't do anything to help you get there faster.

In fact if money is tight it might shoot your dream down entirely, as you might be broke with no access to credit, so you won't be able to keep flying or do more courses. You will also be unsuited to many areas of aviation, as integrated courses are aimed very much at the right seat of an airliner, the dullest, most frustrating seat in aviation.

If you are that impatient and just want it for the image while you're young, then aviation really isn't the career for you. Yes if you had money to buy your way straight into the airlines you might get away with it, although I wouldn't want to employ you, but without it you will probably end up early on in a place that isn't glamorous and where you are the captain, not the FO, and a responsible attitude is literally all that stands between you and a smoking hole in the ground. In Whyjelly's "sh1tty jobs" he was probably responsible for everything he did much of the time with little supervision. In that he probably learnt a lot that probably makes him a good pilot now. If you don't have the patience to go through all that after working hard for years to train then I doubt you will make it to the shiny image anyway, you will become one of those that fall by the wayside.

I suggest you go back to get some decent A-levels, get a degree and go into the city or become a lawyer.

destinationsky
26th Nov 2009, 11:58
you mentioned at the start of this post that it will be virtually impossible to get the money for integrated course?
now you are saying you will try the integrated course?
i think you need to speak to a bank manager! access to those funds is nigh on impossible unless you have a house to secure it against with a parent as guarantors.
You will need a business plan detailing how you are going to pay it back and all of your outgoings etc. trust me, i know. your attitude about the repayments stinks to be frank. you cant expect to get a loan of that size and just not pay it back if you dont succeed. that sort of attitude amongst young people helped to cause the recession and its the reason why banks no longer lend large amounts of money unsecured.
I got accepted onto the CTC wings course but i couldnt afford to get the loan. I would never ask my mum to re mortgage the house as i didnt think it fair. Do you know how frustrating that is? - to know you have the potential to pass training but just cannot get access to the funds?! so, what did i do? i got over the disappointment and got on with life. i saved my money and made sacrifices (with a little help) and got my ppl. 1st hurdle reached. now im looking at saving again and moving on to my cpl WHILST enjoying the flying my new ppl has enabled me to do.
i have wanted to fly since i was 7. im now 25 and have my ppl. 18 years so far and im willing to be patient!
i also suggest you look at the entry requirements to every integrated course and make sure you fulfil them before you even consider applying.
I think you need to be a little more realistic and a little more patient.

K.Whyjelly
26th Nov 2009, 12:11
The term sh1tty job is probably unfair to use insomuch that guys right now in the current market would probably snap your arm off for a shot at them.......night mail runs, single pilot IFR in a piston twin (real character building stuff in a harsh UK winter) and single pilot IFR on a twin turbo prop in Africa with no support to speak of.

I feel I have a great deal of experience and airmanship savvy to fall back on if needed and wouldn't change the way I came up "through the ranks" so to say.

I do think the original OP has got a slightly rose tinted view of the job i.e. cars, money,girls and dare I say it glamour. There are a lot of guys who see the shiny brochures and get sucked in by the ads the reality is very different, especially at 0330z on a freezing wet winters day with a one hour plus drive into work for a 9,10 or 12 duty day, followed by the drive home and the prospect of 4 or 5 similar days ahead.

In the current market the low houred CPL/fATPL is on to a beating for nothing.

Cirrus_Clouds
26th Nov 2009, 15:48
Quick bit of guidance for you:
Stay at college and get A Levels, unless you want to be on a very low wage in a crap job.
Employers generally require people with A Levels as it shows you have a bit of brain. If you choose to leave early, you could setup a business and be your own boss and save from there.

For an Integrated course you need £££ i.e. £80,000-£100,000
This requires security of generally £50,000 – this could be in the from of the parents paying/a house/savings etc. If you don’t have access to this security, then quite simply you cannot do an Integrated course.

If you work for 10yrs approx. saving about this much you could then do an Integrated course, otherwise your stuck with the Modular route (pay-as-you-go).

I have seen that BMI are getting rid of pilots (not suprised) but from research that I do I’ve also been seeing positive signs/information about expansion of airlines and orders for a/c and when they are due to be delivered. It’s a case of looking in the right place and not always on Pprune.

Pprune is useful but you have to extract “useful” information carefully.

If you make a silly drastic/not thought-out decision during your training, that could potentially bodge :bored: up the rest of your training and ending your dream.

There are risky decisions but there are also calculated decisions.

Start looking into flight colleges for prices and training programmes and also buy yourself a Flyer Mag, to get some insight into flying and also look at the training companies at the back. Another option is to go to a Flyer Exhibition where all the training companies meet up, so you can meet them personally.

The industry is a mess at the moment (just like most other industries), but as with every recession there is one heck amount of a mess to clear up after. The recession storm will clear and you'll start noticing significant changes in around 1-3yrs time (my opinion).

I have a feeling that getting that first job will be a struggle but I’m willing to do another career (of many) until my time comes. :ok:

ftimesf
26th Nov 2009, 15:57
There are some interesting and varied responses on here and I've enjoyed reading them..

I've got a CPL and am just finishing an IR and then plan on going to Bournemouth in Jan to do my MCC.
I know there is a serious lack of work out there and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK unless I'm at the right place at the right time and get some of that aviation luck that happens from time to time.

I've loved every minute of the flying I've done over the last 10 years. a PPL then an aerobatic rating and then a few years of general experience and hour building before I decided to do my ATPL..

I didn't come from a wealthy background, I just had a passion for flying and after a lot of hard work and money saving am realising my goal..

By the end of Jan I'll have a Frozem ATPL and I'll struggle to get a job but who cares, I'm just loving it.. Ok, I loved everything apart from those horrid exams! :ok:

Cirrus_Clouds
26th Nov 2009, 16:02
..And well done to you, with the right attitude also! :ok:

cheesycol
26th Nov 2009, 22:54
You don't need to do an integrated course. I did the modular route and 4 months after completing everything I was starting a job on a medium jet in the UK. There was no question of me paying for a type-rating. If you do modular stick with one, maybe two providers.

An integrated course may help you stand out in the present environment, however, an OAT spokesman was recently quoted as saying that, in the last 12 months of 270 odd graduates, only 80 or so have been interviewed/placed with an airline. An integrated course probably won't teach you quite the same skills that might be useful should you end up doing air taxi, parachute dropping or aerial photography - I don't think SPIC ever allows you to foul up your nav and be properly worried!

There is an argument for undertaking your flight training during a downturn, as you could be in a good position when you finish, if that conincides with the upturn. However, we are still waist deep in the doo doo right now and it feels like we're treading water. Globally a lot of major airframe orders seem to be scheduled from 2012 onwards - putting off for another couple of years would do you no harm. Do your A-Levels (maths & physics not my strong point too, but being able to put them on your CV certainly looks better than Art or Media Studies!), get a part-time job, and if you can get a PPL under your belt over the next year or two, you'll be able to present yourself in a very good light to the bank, should you wish to borrow. Your required finance will also be less.

I completely empathise with your 'butterfly' feelings - I had those as well. But, you're only 19! Get being 19 out if your system, not so easy to be as wild as I was when 19, and be a responsible pilot. I didn't start until 25, and have no regrets. I'll certainly bring more life experience to a command than if I had seen nothing but aviation.

Good luck.

12Watt Tim
27th Nov 2009, 16:27
Whyjelly

Yeah, I know. Done the night mail, 'papers, crossed the North Sea night IFR not knowing if I would have to go back due wx, picked up everything from famous people to dead people to the wrong thing entirely (not our fault!). All that great stuff, wouldn't have missed it for the world. Wouldn't have wanted anyone impatient and desirous of the 'glamour' of a pilot's life to be doing it for me!

Genghis the Engineer
27th Nov 2009, 17:32
I'm an oddball, in that I have equal passions for flying and engineering - which come together on my particular passion of test and research flying.

But ultimately, where the hell is the joy of spending your life sat in the left (or right) seat of an electric jet - or being abused by airline management and airport security. It's money and a fancy uniform, with a little bit of flying.

Personally, I would be quite happy to fly night mail, inter-island ferry, offshore fishery patrol (or best of all, prototype test flying - but that takes rather more than a pilots licence or two, and I do a bit of that already). Right hand seat in a 737 or A320? No thanks, and to hell with the extra money.

And if I had my current passion for aviation (which is rather stronger than when I was 19) I might try for the services - who have better aeroplanes, better training, and a natural home for talented but arrogant 19 years olds (which I definitely was - well, arrogant anyhow). I'd not be looking to go massively into debt, with a grossly overpriced training product, to chase a job which is much less interesting than it could be - in the hope that one day I'd get senior enough to be able to pay the debts off.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I feel better now. :}

G

Mickey Kaye
27th Nov 2009, 18:33
"and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK"

Don't be harsh there is nothing wrong with flying pistons twins around the UK.

ftimesf
28th Nov 2009, 08:30
"and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK"

Don't be harsh there is nothing wrong with flying pistons twins around the UK.


Trust me, I'm not complaining.. I'd take a major pay cut and ditch my current job to be able to do just that.

I've had a lot of fun in the good old Seneca and Aztec and I hope I'll have a lot more but I'd also love a nice Dash 8 under my control one day and then who knows, maybe a 757 or 767..

But, offer me an airbus and I'll have the Seneca back please.. *joke*:)

Crescentpirate
3rd Dec 2009, 10:03
Its true i am apart of the 'me now' generation but that does not say i am not willing to heed advice. And no, a good car is not everything to me. What i was simply saying is that i want to get into aviation as quick as possible, i only have what, probably 70 years on this planet before i succumb to something terrible? I want to make the most of it.

I simply want to know what my options are so i know the best course to take.

12Watt Tim
3rd Dec 2009, 13:19
Well the quickest way is not an integrated course. If you have that money up-front you can do a modular course just as quickly (actually you technically could do it more quickly if you were good and worked very hard). At the end you will have £20-40k left over (I have heard figures of £80k thrown around for integrated courses, and accommodation at Oxford used to be ridiculously expensive), which will be very helpful for finding a job quickly, for example doing more flying, doing a type rating, an instructor rating etc.

ftimesf
3rd Dec 2009, 16:04
One of my IR instructors who flies for a major airline was discussing the whole subject with me the other day and unfortunately seems to think a low hours fATPL without a type rating would have to be extremely lucky to get work on a jet..

it's almost accepted that you need a type rating under your belt now.

I just hope I've got enough cash left after my MCC to get myself a type rating, maybe on an ATR or Dash 8..

flyboy1818
5th Dec 2009, 09:22
I totally understand your post! I'm from a very normal background and my parents can't afford to pay for my flight training either. I'm not going to lie it makes things very difficult when you are actively competing against another social class which you will probably never be part of no matter how hard you try. I would be much happier if first officers were paid around the same as a bus driver and captains paid somewhere in the 35-40k region but in the same way as bus drivers the training was provided free of charge, I mean everything from the first flight onwards. I don't need to be paid 80-100k to maintain my standard of living because I have never had that standard of living in the first case. I would be quite happy to maintain council estate life whilst working as a Pilot its really not that bad. But I'm being screwed in a different way. If the above was true we would not have a bunch of hooray henrys paying 80K to go to Oxford, do you see any posh bus drivers?

I have done whats been suggested by many on here, work whilst training and avoid debt at all costs. Its been extremley hard, doing so has involved shift work including nights in order to release more days to train. I will graduate with little more than 10K of debt, I can probably pay this back quite quickly now since my Enthusiasm for Aviation has resulted in gaining a job in the industry which pays quite well and is relativley secure despite the recession, I have been lucky. I am however faced with a dilemma, when I started my training most of the Airlines were recruiting, there was plenty of instructors jobs and sponsored type ratings around. Now its a different world, after grinding my way to an fATPL what do I do? I probably can't afford a Ryanair or a Wizz Air type rating, once again the hooray henrys of this world win.

So heres my advice:

1.) Train in the best value way possible, modular flight training with 50% of the hour building in the states and a good value CPL/IR course in the uk from stapleford, flying time, bonus etc

2.) AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE

3.) Put anyone who you know who is posh off flight training at any possible cost, use phrases like industrial industry, shift work and compare it to coal mining!

4.) look after your family and your friends they are more important than your licence.

5.) Be modest about your Aviation achievements around your non-aviation friends, they are unlikely to understand it and will see it as a sign of Vanity which is unwelcome by most.

Whirlygig
5th Dec 2009, 10:10
Flyboy1818, most of what you've written is valid and true but can you please explain what a so-called "posh" or "Hooray Henry" is? Because at the moment, it reads as though you have chip on your shoulder about people who've worked hard for money and who maybe speak well and I'm sure you don't really have those prejudices, do you?

Cheers

Whirls

12Watt Tim
5th Dec 2009, 10:14
Errrrm, hate to say it but many FOs are paid the same as bus drivers, plenty of them less than even the average bus driver.

flyboy1818
5th Dec 2009, 12:29
No I have a chip on my shoulder against individuals who have there flight training paid for by there familys and have never had to pay for it in the first place. Thats what I refer to as posh or hooray henry. If you read carefully my post clearly states that I have been in a similar situation to the individual asking the question and have paid for my flight training by working at the same time. I do agree some pilots are paid less than bus drivers, but some are still very well paid at the top end of the profession and thats really what makes the job different, thats what attracts people from well off familys who will pay for the training. Do you really think these peoples parents would pay for the training if they knew that it was 40k tops? Would you be prepared to sign a 80K loan secured on you parents modest 3 bedroom semi if you knew that the chances of making repayments in full were unlikely? What if your parents simply said no, we have worked hard for our modest house etc etc

Whirlygig
5th Dec 2009, 12:55
How about this flyboy1818 .... you work hard, get a good qualification and a good job, save your money wisely, marry and have children. When that child grows up, you want the best for them; most parents will do what they can to help their children.

You shouldn't prejudge people just because they happen to be born of parents who do have the money any more than you would prejudge someone just because they happen to be born of parents who don't.

My father paid for my CPL training - he came from a working class background but worked hard all his life. When he died, I inherited his house. Oddly, I'd prefer it if he was still alive. :(

Life's not fair. Don't expect it to be. Chips on shoulders have no place in a cockpit.

Cheers

Whirls

flyboy1818
5th Dec 2009, 14:58
I don't take my chips to the cockpit thats why I have put them on prune! I still don't understand how I can complete a CPL/IR course on the same aircraft and at the same test centre as a CTC cadet yet have less options when I leave the course because I'm modular and could not afford the 80K bribe. In a world where as a nation we are meant to embrace equal opportunities it smacks on apartheid.

Whirlygig
5th Dec 2009, 15:41
yet have less options when I leave the course because I'm modular Eh? You've got more options by doing a modular course. A CTC cadet has been taught to fly an airliner; a modular student has been taught to fly an aircraft.

What is showing here is that you believe the integrated system to be better than modular and you are feeling bitter that you couldn't afford to it. That is where you need to adjust your thinking. And, believe me, chips have a way of appearing in a cockpit even if you think you've hidden them away.

we are meant to embrace equal opportunities We do. You have more opportunities now than ever existed before. However, just as some people are not born beautiful, some are disabled, some are really poor, some are not. Life's not fair and it's up to you what you make of it.

Cheers

Whirls

flyboy1818
5th Dec 2009, 16:30
I don't believe that one is better than the other I simply believe that its a licence and that the test standards are the same regardless of weather you go integrated or modular. The problem is that its a fact that a graduate of Oxford or CTC etc etc will have more chances.

Even now the CTC cadets who have graduated into nothing, have there CV on file with CTC and when the upturn comes they will walk straight into jobs with the airlines, which have partnered with CTC. Its the same with Oxford and British Airways. An individual as a holder of a fATPL from any other establishment cannot apply for these jobs, they have been exclusivley reserved for the individuals who have paid top dollar for flight training which most of us ordinary chaps cannot afford. How is that fair? You don't even get a chance to apply for a job with many of CTC's partner airlines because they have taken up all the slots!

Thats wrong and thats why its not equal, I don't see universities promising employment with XYZ companies on there advertisements, so why are flight schools able to do this? If the likes of EZY, British Airways etc want people trained to a specific standard then they should open an academy or bring back full scaled sponsorship, they should not be operating some half baked tagging scheme via a flight school where only those that are financially capable are able to attend. No one for a second cannot deny that this practice is excluding some very capable individuals

Whirlygig
5th Dec 2009, 17:55
Life's not fair; no, really it isn't. Was it fair that I was born too early to become a pilot in the RAF?

The problem is that its a fact that a graduate of Oxford or CTC etc etc will have more chances.No they won't. They won't have the chance to be an instructor or ferry pilot or .... There are a lot of small operators who wouldn't want to employ an integrated student and would prefer modular.

There are some people who may say that it's not fair that Flyboy1818 can afford a modular course - what say you? There are some people who can't afford a roof over their head. So, on the scale of things, you are quite privileged? Make the most of it.

Cheers

Whirls

12Watt Tim
6th Dec 2009, 00:34
flyboy

A couple of points. First off, is it really too much trouble to use correct punctuation and roughly correct spelling? It would make your posts easier to read, which is polite to those you are addressing, and poor language is far more likely to restrict your choices than the training course you were on. People have found jobs through PPRuNe, so this might be the first impression you make.

Secondly a large proportion of pilots don't go into the business for the money. Quite the reverse, the money is good because the job is dull. Some of the most challenging jobs in aviation command rather modest salaries because they are varied and interesting, so the adventurous people who learn to fly actually want those jobs. Money is not a rational motive for going into aviation. The rewards are not high enough for the uncertainty. There are far better careers for anyone who wants to earn a lot.

How much involvement you have had in the industry that you seem to know all about recruitment policy in the diverse sectors? You also seem to know the recruitment policies that would be better for those airlines. On what research do you base that? Assuming of course that you don't think airline recruitment should be set up for the benefit of the pilot; that would be ridiculous.

flyboy1818
6th Dec 2009, 10:12
I think your overlooking the main point here, which is that its alot of money for a young person from a normal background with no financial support from there parents. The cheque book really does rule here!

7.5 years working in Aviation, 5 years in the Airline sector, 2.5 in Business Aviation. Ferry and Business Jet jobs are practically impossible for newly licenced pilots due to the hours requirements! My job involves dealing with a number of senior pilots on a daily basis.

If you have a problem with me affording a modular course then please come and join me on a nightshift, I might even buy you a cookie!

Whirlygig
6th Dec 2009, 10:46
If you have a problem with me affording a modular course If that is directed at me, may I suggest you read my post more carefully. Why should I have any problem with your income or capital and how you choose to spend it? :confused:

I am not overlooking the main point.

which is that its alot of money for a young person from a normal background with no financial support from there parentsAnd a modular course is a lot of money as well especially if, like the OP, you're struggling to afford that.

However, determination and effort cost nothing and no cheque book can ever buy the right attitude. And attitude is no respecter of money or class.

Cheers

Whirls

flyboy1818
6th Dec 2009, 11:00
Sorry I think you really have got the wrong end of the stick here, I'm on a modular course! What I'm trying to point out here is that it is very difficult if you are not from a well off background. You cannot deny that my choices after training are limited by financial wealth. I would love to be able to afford to have all the options open to me, but I won't be able to apply for jobs where you have to pay for a type which is most. The person asking the question may work hard for years like me to get a licence and then find that they are back to square one because they do not have the capital to get into certain operators. I know that someone will come on here now and say that they had there type rating paid for, but I bet that was a few years ago!

Instructing would be nice but again it’s more money, it’s all money, money, money and if you’re paying for it off your own back it’s really hard!

I believe I do have the right attitude as I would not have got so far in this industry without a good attitude, what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford it is ahead of someone who has spent nearly a decade in the industry because of corrupt recruitment policy. This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!

Whirlygig
6th Dec 2009, 11:28
No, I haven't got the wrong end of the stick at all - I knew you were on a modular course.

However, I CAN deny your choices are limited; I don't think they are. If your only desire is to fly for British Airways, then that option may well be harder. However, as a modular student you have MORE options available. Really, you do if you have the right attitude.

what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford itThat is just pure envy and bitterness; not desirable character traits so maybe try readjusting your ire into something more positive.

This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!Yes, it does - try researching into how barristers are trained. They have to work for NO income whilst training.

Why does it need to be addressed? Basic supply and demand theory dictates the job market and remuneration therein. We live in a capitalist society; not a communist one.

If you believe that it is only your talent as an aviator that should matter, then you should have joined the Armed Forces, your talent would have shone through and we would have all paid for your training out of our taxes.

I'm not going to reiterate myself any more - life's not fair and it's up to you to make of it what you want; negative attitudes will not help.

Cheers

Whirls

flyboy1818
6th Dec 2009, 17:31
I was actually on a University Air Sqaudron for two years and I had a great time, but I always wanted to be a Civilian Pilot and I decided that I should follow my first preference. I think you have made a poor comparision here because the Military is completley different to the Civilan flying world and for many reasons a Military career does not suit everyone. Being a Military Pilot is about alot more than just the flying, it would be insufficient to say that everyone who wants to be a Pilot and cannot afford to train should join the Military.

That is just pure envy and bitterness; not desirable character traits so maybe try readjusting your ire into something more positive.

Its not a negative comment, I am being a realist and stating fact. Most students who graduate an integrated course have no other experience of the Aviation world, yet they get first preference for many jobs. If we are to compare this to your example about the legal profession, imagine working for a legal company for 7.5 years and being told that you cannot work for them as a barrister after qualification because you did not go to there partner law school or were not tagged by them! This does not happen in the legal world. You can go out and do your training at your choice of law school and apply for any of the jobs available. In Aviation however we are limited in choice because of the way in which many of the larger schools have partnered with the airlines.

I have a few friends in the legal profession and I asked them today about the cost of training. For a graduate in another discipline like myself I would have to undertake a graduate diploma in law costing between £2000 and £8000 followed by a Bar Vocational Course costing between £8000-£15000. I would then be qualified to apply for a job. My friend indicates that a newly qualified Barrister at his firm earns around £42K pa, no further training costs are involved. The difference with Aviation is that even when you take the modular route the total costs will be at least twice this amount from zero to fATPL. When we finish training it now seems to be the norm to pay for more training, this could be an instructors ticket at £7K or a type rating at £25K. I know that you have mentioned other jobs such as being a Ferry Pilot, however this type of employment is unlikely to be a first job and is often one for someone who has lets say 1000 hours single enigne time from instructing.

All these factors mixed in do make a career in Aviation extremley prohibitive to an individual trying to pay there own way such as myself or the individual asking the question. Lets not forget that the Goverment do hand out loans for those law courses which means that anyone from any background can training to be a legal professional. You do not require an 80K loan secured on your parents house or parents who will pay to train to go to law school. In addition to this you don't have to go to the highest priced law school to apply for a job with the best law firms. All this is different from the world of Aviation. An integrated student could indeed if they wanted to be end up being a ferry pilot if they wanted to be there are no companies which ferry aircraft specifying that you must come from XYZ modular school to work for them, anyone can apply. All I want is a more level playing field so that students from any flying background can apply for jobs. Flybe is a really good example of the model that all airlines should follow, they pay for you type rating and you can apply if you are integrated or modular. They do have a few schemes but this does not make employment with flybe exclusive.

I really hope you can understand my view point here and that it really is a case of how big your cheque book is, the smaller the cheque book the narrower the opportunities.

Crescentpirate
7th Dec 2009, 09:54
Why ask for advice from experienced pilots who have been in your situation if you are too busy being part of the 'me now' generation to heed said advice anyway. :ugh:
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?

I'm a realist and yes i am taking everybodys advice. I came here to get a list of options and then to decide for myself. Debt is a terrible curse but i have escape routes. The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.

What i am saying is, i want to know the quickest route, so i can get an idea of what people are doing and maybe deciding if i should do it. No doubt everybody wants it now and hell i do too. In all respect, i was not being a jerk, i may have came across as one but you clearly misinterpreted my meaning. I just find it somewhat of an annoyance when i am breaking my back trying to get into this industry when some little cambridge graduate who has never even been inside the doors of a factory suddenly gets his integrated 50K course costs paid in full and 2 years later is flying for British Airways.

Whirlygig
7th Dec 2009, 10:31
The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.
Oh dear lawd - no wonder this country's going to hell in a handcart if that's an example of attitude to debt :rolleyes:

Any idea what bankruptcy ACTUALLY means afterwards? Or are you believing the glossy ads shown on daytime television?

I've said it before; I'll say it again - Life may not be fair but it's what you make of it. Grumbling about how other people have it easy does not help you. Nobody actually has it easy - try walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you start whinging about your lot. Life's tough and we can't always have what we want.

Cheers

Whirls

Genghis the Engineer
7th Dec 2009, 11:22
Oh dear lawd - no wonder this country's going to hell in a handcart if that's an example of attitude to debt :rolleyes:


Not to mention spelling, punctuation and grammar. This thread is getting more and more painful.

It surely isn't a co-incidence that those complaining most about how unfair life is to them, are those least capable of constructing clear high quality written English.

G

wheelbrace
7th Dec 2009, 12:00
And as for Whirlygig - your patience is laudable - Bishop Bonner would brook no such nonsense!

Don't worry, Flyboy1818; Gordon Brown has obviously read your missives, agrees that down this route humanity will prosper and is basing his electoral triumph on this basis.

There is hope! you will soon be out of your teens and will be released from the hormonal nightmare that is obviously gripping your sphincter... his turmoil will be slow to end - wet faggots for him!

wheelbrace
7th Dec 2009, 13:04
'The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.'

Crescentpirate - along with my last, apparently Aung San Suu Kyi is also an avid reader of this forum. She applauds your grip of the ramifications of an ill considered vote winning stunt from an ex prime minister, some say war criminal (heaven forfend that anyone on PPRuNe should even consider subscribing to that heresy!), of the UK.

The pH of my contempt for you was matching that of my bile - but my better half went to church once and counsels pity as the more appropriate route.

Your attitude to human rights is so dangerous. I urge you to reconsider your responsibilities.

Whirlygig
7th Dec 2009, 13:20
Wheelbrace - you owe me a keyboard (and some wetwipes for the monitor!) :} and I might owe you a beer :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

AlphaMale
7th Dec 2009, 14:38
I'm from a single parent family and my mother is on benefits. its virtully impossible for me to acquire the 50,000+ to do my integrated frozen ATPL.

I really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking

I really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.
Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated.
I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.
Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated?

Am I reading the same posts as others here? :rolleyes:

wheelbrace
7th Dec 2009, 15:27
Whirlygig - I would love to take you up on the offer of a beer, but Holt to Derehamshire is a good day's hack. Maybe when the infernal combustion engine is invented and inserted into my horseygig I shall venture that way.

Wheelbrace.

PS - what is a keyboard and monitor? Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine? I have heard of such things south of Thetford...

Dr Eckener
7th Dec 2009, 17:11
I just find it somewhat of an annoyance when i am breaking my back trying to get into this industry when some little cambridge graduate who has never even been inside the doors of a factory suddenly gets his integrated 50K course costs paid in full and 2 years later is flying for British Airways.
I find that annoying too. But it did not stop me earning the money BEFORE I PAYED for my licence (modular), and became a pilot. I wasn't 22 when I first sat in a jet. So what? I felt great having achieved it on my own, and had had some interesting experiences on the way. Borrowing money and then declaring bankruptcy never, ever occurred to me, and I find it morally reprehensible. The world is not 'fair', get over yourself.

Whirlygig
7th Dec 2009, 17:48
Wheelbrace, would sure beat some of the squit here :}

Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine?Indeed I do but my staple diet is no longer greenfly. :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

Crescentpirate
10th Dec 2009, 10:17
Same here flyboy1818

I'd fly for free if i could, work part-time at a job to allow me food and things necessasary to survive.

Sure the pilots life is glamerous and things and being human it is only natural for me to want that life. It would be great driving a nice car while still being young and so on but if something terrible happened and suddenly alternative ways of transport were found and as a result pilots were being paid minimum wage, i'd still do it. It just means i'd have to date an older and wealthy woman...hahaha i'm joking. No but seriously, i'd fly for free.

Yeah i hope you guys didn't think i wanted this for the money. I wanted to fly before i even knew what money was. When i was a kid i used to get toy cars for christmas and unlike most kids, i'd pretended they could fly.

akindofmagic
10th Dec 2009, 14:36
No but seriously, i'd fly for free.How exactly are you planning to live when you're flying for free? How long are you planning to work for free for?

If you go down this route, you are going to discover very quickly that even though airline flying is a good job, it is just that: a job. It is a way to make money so that you can enjoy a lifestyle that you want. The novelty will VERY quickly wear off when you are in ludicrous amounts of debt (which is unobtainable at the moment anyway) and you return from a day's work to your bedsit with no money to buy decent food, let alone engage in anything that might be described as "a life".

Your comment that The Human Rights Act guarantees your right to bankruptcy protection is one of the funniest, and naive comments I've read on here in a long time. Do you realise that banks will not lend you the money required to fund an integrated course, unless they obtain some form of security, in the form of a charge over property (usually a house)? Therefore, unless you have a family member who is prepared to risk their house so that you can "work for free" (and you say in your first post that you don't), you WILL NOT get funding for the full amount of the course fees for an integrated course. Even assuming that someone was idiotic enough to agree to offer up a property as security so you could get a loan, if you were to default on that loan (because you have no money as you're working for free), ultimately the bank can take possession of said property and sell it, releasing equity to satisfy your debt. Nothing in any section of The Human Rights Act to stop that happening.

You have to face the simple facts: since HSBC stopped giving unsecured loans for people on the Wings scheme at CTC, it has become impossible to do an integrated course unless you have significant amounts of cash, or generous parents prepared to risk a significant amount of the equity in their property.

To sum up, Crescentpirate, you have a wholly unrealistic take on how this all works. Your only option given your current circumstances is to start down the modular route, taking your time and flying when you can afford it.

Put1992
10th Dec 2009, 19:11
First of all, what would one define 'lower class' as?

I started training for my PPL at 14, and got it at 17. It was paid for through inheritance from my grandmother, a year stacking shelves and saving at Sainsburys (something I still do now to pay for flying and having a bit of fun at the weekend) and a fair amount from my parents. All this on top of school/college, its been a busy few years, but I can gladly say I've earnt my PPL.

I have absolutely no plans to put my parents in financial risk to fund my commercial training. They will be paying for some of it ,but so will I. I'll be flying modular, something I always planned to do, and will be able to work and fly at the same time (most likely not at sainsburys mind you, I'm at the end of my tether)

Financially, short term, it would be alot easier for me to take a loan out, and go integrated in september next year straight out of college. But I hope this way I'll be free of significant debt, and still enjoy myself in the process!!

Cheers!

flyboy1818
10th Dec 2009, 19:38
First of all, what would one define 'lower class' as?

Lets define it as someone who has no or very little help from there parents or relatives etc etc. Put1992 you are very lucky to be in such a position, I wish my parents could pay for part of my modular training!

I'd fly for free if i could, work part-time at a job to allow me food and things necessasary to survive

I do not agree with the above comment, what I clearly stated in a previous post is that I would be happier if the training was free, but as a result the job did not have the earning potential that it now has and the top end salaries which it has right now. The reason people are prepared to work for free and pay for hours etc is that we are all playing one big end game trying to become the £100,000 per year BA Captain with two kids that go to private school a trophy wife and a pony. If this kind of income and lifestyle was not feasible by becoming a Pilot then people would not be prepared to fork out such huge amounts of money for training, less people would train and we would probably be in a situation where full sponsorship would start again.

In short normal working people cannot afford to work for free, we have outgoings and these will not go away because we are performing some kind of vanity by pretending to be a professional and paying to fly a jet. So no you won't find me working for free, even Vicars get paid to work!

But I hope this way I'll be free of significant debt, and still enjoy myself in the process!!

Good well done, good healthy attitude enjoy it and don't be in a rush, don't wish your life away!

The Beer Hunter
10th Dec 2009, 20:03
I'd fly for free if i could.....

Well do us a favour and don't. In fact do us an even bigger favour and stay out of our industry. The last thing we need is people like you undercutting everyone when others are already struggling to survive.

Put1992
12th Dec 2009, 10:51
Put1992 you are very lucky to be in such a position, I wish my parents could pay for part of my modular training!


It is a relatively small part though.

The reason people are prepared to work for free and pay for hours etc is that we are all playing one big end game trying to become the £100,000 per year BA Captain with two kids that go to private school a trophy wife and a pony.

That is not my dream. Best of luck if you want that.

Halfwayback
12th Dec 2009, 11:21
Just to point out that Cresecentpirate is having a liitle rest (:= ) for a couple of days and therefore won't be responding straightaway!

HWB

ledwardj
13th Jan 2010, 00:47
hi buddy, i wouldnt say im in the same position as you but it is similar. Im 20, and know how your feel about the age situation. yes your young but you feel as though you should have some sort of vocation or trade to your name. I feel the same. your mates are all off at uni or travelling, bettering themselves in some way and your not. Dont worry. the same thought would keep me awake for hours. My advice would be to think finish your a levels, if the unlikley happpens and you loose your medical, you have a good cushioning to fall back on. after that save some money in a full time job that you enjoy. one which gives you a trade and one which you can grow into. for example tree surgery. you may not find this helpful but it cant hurt.

smith
13th Jan 2010, 10:29
All that stuff about getting an unsecured loan,doing the training and declaring themselves bankrupt. This guy doesn't deserve to be let loose behind the stick of a C150 let alone anything else.

TBH I don't think any airline would hire someone declared bankrupt or with CCJ's associated to them.

Captain-Random
13th Jan 2010, 11:26
The reason people are prepared to work for free and pay for hours etc is that we are all playing one big end game trying to become the £100,000 per year BA Captain with two kids that go to private school a trophy wife and a pony.


That is not my dream. Best of luck if you want that.


Amen to that :D

fly_antonov
13th Jan 2010, 11:55
Hi,

I can give you some guidelines about getting into flight training.

I' m a PPL and I' ve done my ATPLs but didn' t sit the exams yet.

I' ve started modular in late 2006, done my PPL by summer 2007. ATPL's distance learning from September '07 to July '08.
In 2008 I had to go to the U.S. for several months on hour building, but had to quit my job to do that.

About the job supporting my training:
I made no more than 1200 pounds after tax but living at home, it was sufficient to support my flight training so far.

Since March 2009 I' m on social benefits, unable to find a suitable job and I have attended a 1 year state-sponsored aircraft technician course, but despite my excellent results and hard work, I find myself unable to find the 2 year apprenticeship required to get a mechanic' s license.

I have stocked up quite some savings as I get over 900 euro of benefits per month.

If you' ve got a job, you can get a loan, but one can easily lose 1000 euro per year on interests, so that's 1 month of hard work to feed the bank.

You can' t get loans for integrated unless they're backed by something, and when I was 19 I was eager to do it quickly but that's definitely not the way to do it unless you want to risk your family house. If you don't have a house or other property, forget about getting a 50K loan, banks are not stupid.

3 years ago Oxford invited me to the Netjets cadets scheme and it was very tempting but I'm happy I didn' t go: the cadets are grounded jobless and facing huge loan repayments, those who got hired saw their salaries cut by over 30%, making repayments tight.

One part of me feels like the world is getting ahead of me and that I will be left behind. That feeling is pure imagination as no one is getting any jobs out there, and that is a true and sad fact. People are not randomly crying about their misery, the misery is real and it is even downplayed: people usually don't like to brag about their misery.
I won' t get back into the game until we read "airlines desperate for pilots" in the press. "Airlines hiring again" is not good enough for me because that means that I will still be competing with guys who have been laid off, meaning 0-1% chance for me and other unexperienced CPL' s.
I have no intention of resuming my training until at least 2012, more probably 2013 because the industry is in really really bad shape. I' m saving money so that when the industry unleashes and becomes desperate, I will get back into the game.
I didn' t pass the ATPL theory exams because they expire, therefore being a waste of money.

Starting September 2010 I will be enrolling a university aircraft design course and head into aerospace design, hopefully while maintaining social benefits.

After that, I will aim to enter Airbus' graduate course and try to get a position as an aircraft design engineer.
If I get there, I will chose between continuing in well-paid aerospace and owning my own little aircraft to fly when I want, where I want, with my future wife and kids; or finish my ATPL and fly for a not well-paying airline, while living a terrible family life.

Once you get closer into aviation, it suddenly isn' t as cool as you thought that it would be.

It' s cool to be able to tell your friends that you' re training to become a pilot, but the misery that you' d have to cope with, for those little moments of fame is unbearable.

I' m 23 and I live in mainland Europe

Put1992
13th Jan 2010, 13:06
I made no more than 1200 pounds after tax but living at home, it was sufficient to support my flight training so far.

I'd be happy for that. What were you doing?

I won' t get back into the game until we read "airlines desperate for pilots" in the press. "Airlines hiring again" is not good enough for me because that means that I will still be competing with guys who have been laid off, meaning 0-1% chance for me and other unexperienced CPL' s.

The General feeling is that you wont hear that again.