Germany to Cut Eurofighter Order

[ORAC]

What a surprise. Hard sell after we got into the market first....

Germany To Cut Eurofighter Order, Seek Exports (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4384702&c=EUR&s=AIR)

BERLIN - Germany's coalition government has confirmed that the Luftwaffe will not receive its final batch of Eurofighters. To date, Germany has firmly committed to 143 aircraft; now Tranche 3B, covering the final 37 jets originally planned for the Luftwaffe, will instead be made available for export.

Faced with penalties for non-acceptance of the 37 remaining aircraft, the German government has decided to put these Eurofighters up for sale, under an agreement issued by the new coalition government. The decision may appease Eurofighter officials, since there will be no reduction in the original 180-aircraft German order.

Industry, however, will not be able to benefit from any additional work that would have been created by a new export order. The Luftwaffe, long committed to its planned 180 Eurofighters, is yet to comment.

Finding a customer for the Tranche 3B aircraft may not be easy. EADS is competing to sell Eurofighters in India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft competition. Switzerland is also examining the Eurofighter to meet its requirement for an F-5E Tiger II replacement.

Greece, which has already selected the Eurofighter once before, prior to canceling its options, may be seen as an outside chance when it reopens its fighter competition.

The 15 Eurofighters already diverted from the Luftwaffe to Austria could also be factored into total numbers, meaning that Germany would need to offload just 22 Tranche 3B jets. A similar offset arrangement was adopted by the United Kingdom when it diverted 24 RAF Typhoons to Saudi Arabia, and later took these aircraft out of its full 232-aircraft commitment.

The implications for the Luftwaffe are unclear. Plans called for the establishment of five Eurofighter wings, two of which (including a training unit) are now flying the jet. With Tranche 3A deliveries yet to begin, the air arm has some time to decide whether to ax one of the planned wings, as some politicians have campaigned for.

[navibrator]

What a surprise. Hard sell after we got into the market first....??

You have the wrong idea here. We didn't get into any market first. The world is carved up for all 5 partner nations to sell in different areas. Germany has India - they have already been there to show off the aircraft. Caused a bit of a stink in the papers due to the cost.

[cessnapete]

If you have read the Raphale flight test report in Flight last week ,it is then probably a good idea not to order more Typhoons.
I wonder if BAE will offer the same facility to Flight as did Dassault! Perhaps not as it appears the French aircraft a much better all round aircraft. Air to Air, Air to Ground, Carrier qualified, all available now and cheaper.

[JFZ90]

If you have read the Raphale flight test report in Flight last week ,it is then probably a good idea not to order more Typhoons.
I wonder if BAE will offer the same facility to Flight as did Dassault! Perhaps not as it appears the French aircraft a much better all round aircraft. Air to Air, Air to Ground, Carrier qualified, all available now and cheaper.

You reached the conclusion that Rafale is better than Typhoon from an article in Flight Int? Is this now gospel then?

[Safeware]

navibrator, 5 partner nations - pray tell?

sw

[cessnapete]

I just read the report, I'm not a FJ pilot, but the ex RAF FJ Test Pilot who flew the report seemed to know what he is talking about. Flight Int. have not been offered the same facility ref the Eurofighter for a comparison.

[Archimedes]

And, with respect, the question remains how you make the judgement

...it is then probably a good idea not to order more Typhoons

and

... it appears the French aircraft a much better all round aircraft

When Peter Collins was unable (through no fault of his own) to offer a direct comparison between the types and did not set out to do so?

The only conclusion to reach is that the Rafale is a damned good aircraft - something many have suspected for a long time. You can't make sweeping generalisations about future procurement of Typhoon, or its capability based upon that - it'd be like having a court case in which only the defence or prosecution case was heard....

[JFZ90]

Interesting article

FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/09/334383/flight-test-dassault-rafale-rampant-rafale.html)

At no point does he compare it to anything else really in any meaningful way.

I suspect his point about it being what he'd choose to go to battle in is a rather unsubtle fishing trip to get a ride in an F-22 or Typhoon - both of which would probably change his opinion (esp the F-22)!

[Finnpog]

I read the same article as CessnaPete - and his conclusion is a fair one.
No need for comparing him with the CRU scientists who appear to have made up their evidence of climate change.

The Rafale is an option in the academic sense of the word - although it will never realistically be accepted as such because 'we' the taxpayers and 'Them' BAe Systems have invested too much in Typhoon to pull out.

The Rafale is - and this is my opinion only - the embodiment of what the Typhoon might have / could have been - particularly the M model.

Typhoon however is operationally with a heap of nations whereas the Rafale is only with one nation and their two air arms - so maybe the fact that it is more popular, and generated gretaer income, is reason enough to infer 'better'.

I still love the photographs for the Rafale M working off the USN carriers.

[CirrusF]

You reached the conclusion that Rafale is better than Typhoon


Does it matter either way? Neither is ever going to face an adversary that can even begin to approach its capabilities in air to air combat.

The Rafale does seem to be a more versatile aircraft on paper in the sort of roles that either aircraft is likely to see in their useful lifecycles.

A more interesting comparison would be an appraisal of their ease of field maintenance and mission availability. I have heard unofficially that the Rafale's mission availability in Afghanistan has not been that good.

[Archimedes]

I read the same article as CessnaPete - and his conclusion is a fair one.

Sorry to go off track a bit, but how is it fair?

The article is an undoubtedly precise portrayal of the Rafale from a bloke who knows what he's talking about.

But for CP's conclusion to be fair there needs to be clear evidence that Peter Collins said Rafale was better than Typhoon (or F-22/Super Hornet/F-16 Block 60/Other multi-role types are available) based upon comparative evidence. And unless I'm reading a different version of the article, he doesn't.

No need for comparing him with the CRU scientists who appear to have made up their evidence of climate change.

Who's making that sort of comparison between CP and the scientists?

The observation is that CP's conclusions in which he ranks the Typhoon below Rafale simply aren't sustained by the evidence in the article. That's not accusing him of making things up/changing evidence (better add 'allegedly' in case any CRU scientist's lawyer is reading), simply saying that he needs more evidence to make such a firm, decisive statement.

[Harley Quinn]

Typhoon however is operationally with a heap of nations whereas the Rafale is only with one nation and their two air arms

A more interesting comparison would be an appraisal of their ease of field maintenance and mission availability. I have heard unofficially that the Rafale's mission availability in Afghanistan has not been that good.

So Rafale- the inferior airframe is deployed in theatre, but Typhoon clearly a superior aircraft due to being operational could be be deployed and could give better availability and could deliver a wider range of effects than the aircraft in theatre now delivering effects? Maybe I am being a bit thick here (though I don't think so) but isn't that the 'jam for tomorrow' argument we have consistently heard for thirty years or more?

BTW I am an unrelenting Francophobe, so feel uncomfortable pointing out the emperors' new clothes but FFS get real. 'There is a CAS aircraft available' or 'there will be a CAS aircraft available in a few years time'. If I was on the ground I know what I'd prefer to hear.

[knowitall]

"'There is a CAS aircraft available' or 'there will be a CAS aircraft available in a few years time'. If I was on the ground I know what I'd prefer to hear."

yes but if that CAS aircraft needed a mirage 2000 or a etandard to designate for it i suspect i'd must be hearing words like "pointless PR stunt" and "waste of resources"

[Jackonicko]

See: RAFALE, AS GOOD AS ITS PRESS?


Combat Aircraft Magazine | Special Online Reports (http://www.combataircraft.net/reports/rafale.php)

Combat Aircraft suggests that Collins’ lack of experience of comparable contemporary fast jets meant that he did not really have sufficient basis for comparison to make the judgements he did, and that his gushing praise was thus just a little unqualified.

[nunquamparatus]

I heard that the German Government cancelled the order due to a consistent fault within the combat system, namely the Laser-Ring, GPS navigation system.

Apparently it kept wanting to invade Poland:E

(For those of a sensitive, flowery nature that was what we call "A joke" - please feel free to have a sense of humour)

[GreenKnight121]

Apparently it kept wanting to invade Polandhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Or France.
;)

[TBM-Legend]

...or Russia:eek:

...or Greece:hmm:

....or Holland:oh:

...or Denmark:\

...or Sweden :ok:

[or as the saying goes visit Germany before Germany visits you!]:=

[TBM-Legend]

I wonder if the UK/Germany/Spain/Italy gave the Typhoon "source" codes to Saudi/Austria????:mad::rolleyes:


:E I wonder if the Tiffy's "electricts" are made by Lucas????

[cessnapete]

If the Eurofighter Typhoon is so good, why is it only guarding us from errant airliners in the UK and penguins in the Falklands.

[TEEEJ]

I expect you are referring to Afghanistan? The Typhoon fleet is small and still working up. 6 Squadron is still to form and take over from the F.3s at Leuchars. It all takes time. Why put strain on the existing force when you have other types to fulfil the task in Afghanistan?

I would expect that the next deployment for RAF Typhoon will be QRA in the Baltic? The last time the UK undertook that mission was back in 2004.

Baltic Air Policing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Air_Policing)

TJ

[Jackonicko]

CessnaPete,

We have just two frontline squadrons. Plus one F3 unit. UK AD/QRA/Falklands takes five.

You do the math, as our cousins would say.