The frustration of Pirates?

[Razor61]

Can't help but think why the task force is out there off Somalia, Yemen etc when all they seem to do is just watch ships get taken over? Might sound harsh but watching the Ross Kemp on Pirates, he was flying with the Royal Navy in their Merlin and a ship put out a mayday saying they were being followed by pirates. When the Merlin turned up the pirates seemed to turn away and the Merlin crews went back to their ship. A call then came in that night of the same ship being attacked and boarded by those same pirates.
The Merlin was once again sent out and told to RTB and not to intervene because the pirates "were already onboard".
The crew of the Merlin swore and were clearly frustrated on the fact they cannot do anything once the ship is boarded (for political reasons and crews safety i assume).

Then we have the RFA ship sheparding the Pirates on the British yacht off the seycheles with our chaps armed and just watching it just feet away not being able to intervene. Those British citizens are now in Somalia as hostages.

I have also seen on the news video of RN ships getting within several hundred metres of pirate ships but not doing anything at all.

Surely if pirate boats are going around illegally boarding ships and armed to the teeth, that warrants any intervention on any Navy if they see a pirate boat. Why do they have to WAIT for them to attack when they can clearly see (sometimes) they have RPG's and AK's onboard.

Different rules it seems for the USN and French Navy whereby they have undertaken several armed assaults (some with a not so good outcome) but have also raided and destroyed quite a few 'suspected' pirate skiffs and they seem to be on a pro-active patrol.... whereby the RN sits back and watches.

Are we under a different ROE?

Another French assault here French Navy Storms Pirate Ship, Arrests 12 - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4375267&c=EUR&s=TOP) recently arrested 12 pirates and they destroyed their mothership.

I know also that when we do eventually *arrest* the pirates for pirating the seizing ships we have to release them shortly after because we are NOT allowed to detain them.

If the USCG have ROE to shoot the boat upon sight a drug runner who maynot even have any weapons (but i expect tehy do)
Why does a navy (or several navies) have no authority to do so with Pirates who clearly put lives in danger and hold ships to ransom.

So... what is the point of being out there when we cannot do anything to prevent the pirates doing their thing and when we do, we have to release them. It seems absurd and must one of the most frustrating things for the navy or marines to do.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The RoE are very risk averse. That said, they go some way to avoiding; Ship sunk by Indian Navy was Thai fishing trawler: IMB (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ship-sunk-by-indian-navy-was-thai-fishing-tr/390887/)

http://static.indianexpress.com/m-images/2008-11-26/M_Id_48912_ins.jpg
IMB received a report about mistake by Indian Navy from Thai trawler's owner Bangkok-based Sirichai Fisheries.

[Jabba_TG12]

"Different rules it seems for the USN and French Navy whereby they have undertaken several armed assaults (some with a not so good outcome) but have also raided and destroyed quite a few 'suspected' pirate skiffs and they seem to be on a pro-active patrol.... whereby the RN sits back and watches."

Lets just hope its not in danger of becoming a habit after what happened to the team from HMS Cornwall... I know we're becoming a shadow of what we used to be, but this is taking the p***.

Taken to its logical conclusion... build two aircraft carriers, sell one to the Indians and the other, if there is a Mumbai/ 9/11 style attack, just sits by watching hosting cocktail parties... :(

[Gainesy]

I was told recently by a retired RN Commodore that the UK Govt has shoved its oar in regarding International Law on Piracy. RN has been told not to arrest as the pirates might then claim refugee status in UK.

Under International Law I understand that you can shoot them.

There are also increasingly serious mutterings from marine insurers at Lloyds about buying and crewing their own anti-pirate/escort ships.

NB the crew of an RFA ship are mostly civilians.

[Blacksheep]

The British East India Company armed its merchant ships to naval standards (including marines) and on land, introduced its own army to combat brigands. We all know what that led to. Imperialism is frowned upon these days. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia
If true, and I do so hope it is, then this must be the way forward. Or have we (the Government) got too soft to do anything 'cept hit the motorist!!:{

[hoodie]

There's a letter in today's Telegraph that is an antidote to the "Let's go in guns blazing, it's what Nelson would have done" crowd:

SIR – The Royal Navy has been criticised for lack of action by the civilian-manned Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker Wave Knight.
When this vessel arrived, the Chandlers were already the captives of armed Somali pirates. Accurate fire against people clustered in a small boat bobbing up and down is difficult enough for experts, let alone enthusiastic non-specialists.

At least we avoided the headline, “Royal Navy kills Britons in bungled rescue attempt”. Last year, an Indian frigate sank a hijacked Thai trawler, erroneously believing it to be a pirate mother ship, and 15 fishermen tied up below decks died.

This is real life, not a video game with a “play again” button.

Lt Cdr R.J. Hoole
Waterlooville, Hampshire

[Whenurhappy]

'International Law' does not authorise the execution of pirates; rather piracy is a peremptory norm (jus cogens) - along with genocide, for example - that is based on the acceptance of fundamental, natural laws that apply to all States, without derogation.

Under the emerging concept of international individual criminal responsiblity, piracy offenders are guilty of a crime agaisnt international society and can thus be punished by international tribunals or by any State at all. Moreovoer, jurisdiction to hear charges is not confined to the State on whose territory the act took place, or the national state of the offender. This neatly gets around the issue of terre nullis - ie international waters. As far as I can recall, there are no standing international piracy tribunali.

Part of the problem is that unbder UK Law, alleged offenders have to be arrested and processed in accordance with PACE 1974 - one of the reasons that the RN travels with US Coast Guard Officers in some locations, who are attested officers of the law. Off Somalia, most offenders captured by the European or NATO missions are handed over to Kenya, where ther eis legal entity and a transparent judicial system.

[BEagle]

On the other hand, in the Malacca Straits the pirates are wary of all Russian vessels since pirates boarded one and found themselves facing a heavily armed crew who shot all but one dead, then put the survivor back in his boat and sent him on his way, with a picture of the Russian flag to show his friends back in Indonesia.

The Sovs took a similarly robust stance a few years earlier in the Lebanon....

From Bob Woodward's book Veil

Hezbollah had kidnapped four Soviet diplomats from Beirut during the fall of 1985. One they murdered straightaway. The others they held in captivity.
In response, the KGB seized the relative of a Hezbollah leader. As part of Moscow's anti-terrorism policy, the KGB castrated him, stuffed his testicles in his mouth, shot him in the head and sent the body back to Hezbollah. The KGB included a message that other members of the Party of God would die in a similar manner if the three Soviets were not released.

Shortly afterward, Hezbollah set free the three remaining Soviet hostages. Soviet interests in Lebanon were never similarly menaced again.

[Biggus]

When discussing the piracy issue I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned:

Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast! (http://somalicruises.com/)

[Razor61]

Surely all ships we send out there now should have a few Marines onboard with the relevent kit to aid such a thing as that with the yacht.

When a US crewed Ship was pirated it was shadowed by a Destroyer. The crew were put onto a skiff and the Captain jumped into the water but was captured again.

The US forces had several snipers set up on the warship and both took out several pirates in one go in simultaineous hits... the result was the Captain was able to escape again and the pirates were killed.

Isn't that how it should be?

I know a gung-ho approach isn't always needed but in the case of pirates who are armed with such weapons, stealing from ships and holding crew hostage then surely the only outcome (if it can be done at the time) is to conduct similar operations and get rid of them.

We have a habit just talking to the other side (we do it in Afghanistan too according to the news reports) when we should be dealing with them in another manner.
It's a case of the other nations doing what is needed.... whereas the British approach is to mostly "Talk" and be "Political" over it all the time. It is like it in the Indian Ocean, Red Sea and Afghanistan.
Is this Government afraid of taking action? Do they think that public 'say' would be against the actions of the Royal Navy if they did conduct such offensive operations (pre-emptive) against the pirates?
I have a feeling the majority of civilians would back such operations if it kept civilians being held hostage all the time.

Use the Merlins out there and put them to good use, it seems that is what the crew onboard wanted to do... with their swearing and frustration on the programme they are fed up with pussy footing around flying in circles watching the pirates humiliate them....

[Razor61]

Here is the series if anyone missed it.

Part 1. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (1/5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaBqHyPu9II)
Around 4:45min is when Ross joins HMS Northumberland...
He then patrols with the Merlin crew.

Part 2. YouTube - Ross Kemp In Search Of Pirates 1 (2/5) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJsUSMTxXS0)
Continued onboard Northumberland

You can click on the rest on the right hand side of Youtube.

[piggybank]

I reckon the story of the Trojan Horse has some relevance here, and position the container ship so it will definitely be captured. Keep the Press out and do an extreme clean up. If this contravenes what Western military find unacceptable, use mercenaries. Thats my tuppence worth.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Just a thought:

There's a lot of soldiers that are coming home from sandy places. Let them have their "home leave" and then let them volunteer for "protection duty" aboard random ships in the region for a month or two at a time. Arm them, allow them to rest and let them react with maximum force if attacked.

As the soldier, you "pays your money and takes your chance"... You could get an oil tanker or a pleasure cruise - the former is probably far more likely... But, it's "easy time" after you get over the seasickness.

The deterrent factor is huge... and I'm sure there will be sufficient volunteers for the program...

[Union Jack]

When discussing the piracy issue I'm surprised that this hasn't been mentioned:

Somali Cruises - Cruise along Africa's east coast!

No need to be surprised, Biggus http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/379680-vacation-idea-hunt-pirates-russian-cruise-ship.html seems remarkably similar .....:)

Jack

[fallmonk]

"piggybank"

I reckon the story of the Trojan Horse has some relevance here, and position the container ship so it will definitely be captured. Keep the Press out and do an extreme clean up. If this contravenes what Western military find unacceptable, use mercenaries. Thats my tuppence worth.

Am with you , am sure the guys at the SBS would love a crack at this where its sanctioned by HMG of "casual" at a much higher rate of pay !
doesnt it come back to the " best defence is offence" ????

[barnstormer1968]

Romeo Oscar Golf (http://www.pprune.org/members/189585-romeo-oscar-golf)

You make a good point. It has long been known that in several multinational operations, the Russian 'peace makers' get a lot less problems than western 'peace keepers'.

I suppose it does not take long for the average trouble maker to get the difference when dealing with western of Russian troops.

Throw stones at British* soldiers, and receive food, sweets and medical aid.

Throw stones at Russian soldiers and get simply shot, and left to rot.


*For British, read: many of the western countries. And I say counrties, as the troops on the ground are following their political masters orders, rather than doing what they may feel is best!

[rmac]

Problem is when you remove the morality in regards to ROE, you remove it from general circulation too, which leads to

1. Pilfering and selling your soldiers rations
2. Selling your troops as labourers
3. Even worse selling them as hostages to the other side
4. Or how about selling your ammunition to the enemy and leaving your own troops short.
5. Maybe bungling the odd CT raid and killing theatres worth of people or scores of young kids in a school in Beslan.

Yup, I can see lots of advantages in adopting Russian military standards :ugh:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Yup, I can see lots of advantages in adopting Russian military standardsWhich is exactly why we will lose every confrontation we ever venture into. Because we openly demonstrate weakness to all who wish to see.

What needs to be done is to meet action with equal or greater reaction. Simply ignoring the potential result is to promote such stupidity as "political correctness" or any other version of societal idiocy.

You might laugh at the statements above but think carefully about why Russia et al don't have an immigration problem while the more "liberal" thinking countries are being overrun by those who profess to hate the country they are choosing to move to.

Racist? Absolutely not. Realist? Absolutely. Eyes wide open? Clearly more so than some who would surrender themselves to the will of others.

[Razor61]

Well they are at it again.
They have shot dead the North Korean captain of the ship they took over a few days ago.
They have also tried to re-capture the Maersk Alabama which was held by pirates a few months ago.
However... this time round the Alabama had armed crew and fired back at the pirates who retreated.

So it takes civilian crews to hire mercenaries or do it themselves because the very task force sent out to police the area can't do it because they have their hands tied...

"A patrol plane flew to the area" it was said in the same piece.
Well what is that going to do? Drop dinghys i expect to the pirates if they capsize.

There are loads of Special Forces in Camp Lemona just up the coast from Somalia... and according to the Ross Kemp Doc, over 30 pirate training camps exist... yet why haven't they been "shut" down or taken out like they did with the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan.
Afterall.....they are terrorists, boating around international waters with rocket launchers, machine guns, shooting dead civilian crew.

It is interesting however that the US have now introduced the MQ-9 Reaper for finding pirates around the Seychelles. A ship was attacked this week the furthest yet at 1000 miles from Somalia.
Notice that they are using the Reaper which is able to fire off a few Hellfires. Perfect for motherships.
BBC NEWS | Africa | Drones scour the sea for pirates (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8352631.stm)

What do we have in the Seychelles? An RFA tanker with chaps onboard armed with SA80's and one or two Machine guns.

[Cardinal Puff]

AA, agreed.

The morale boost among crews when you're doing and achieving something rather than just hiding in a secure area, or playing at being a non-aggressive target, would do a huge amount of good as well.

[JElford]

Knowing a few civilian ships that pass that way, they normally board up all openings up to top deck level to make it hard for the opposition to gain access. I did hear of one vessel that had ex Russian SF on board to protect it, they were heavily armed and well stocked with vodka too, it was rumored that the crew were not sure who they were more afraid off!

[barnstormer1968]

rmac.

Bearing in mind the very well laid out charges/hostages, and routine of the terrorists at Beslan, I am surprised you quote the incident. Many Special Forces entry techniques had been countered by the terrorists. Do you also blame the large amount of fathers in the school who 'allowed' themselves to be taken outside and shot by the terrorists (some would say they were brave in sacrificing themselves in an effort to save their children!)?

As for the theatre raid, I am sure you will know the technology involved there came from another large military power, and had not been operationally used before (The country (I'm not naming them) that developed the idea had also not realised the problem that could occur with 'rescued' hostages either).
If everyone had 20/20 hindsight, then the Comet would have had oval windows, and the UK would be the worlds leading airline maker!

I did not mention the UK adopting Russian techniques, but did point out they get less hassle.
Here is a starter for 'ten for you'

If a Taliban IED gang have just been seen planting a bomb (by SF/UAV etc) under a supply route to be used by A Brit convoy/foot patrol, would you think it better for us to shoot them, or let them go purely because they have raised their dish dashes and shown themselves to be un armed (and live another day to try to kill YOU)

It is a similar story with pirates. Fishermen do not need to approach large vessels (nor use two boats, one mother, one small), as there are no fish to catch on them, and it is a dangerous manoeuvre.

Out of interest, can you explain how your points 1, 2, 3 and 4 have anything at all to do with ROE?

[airborne_artist]

The best way to deal with pirates is to avoid getting trapped by them in the first place.

The yachting couple could have re-routed - they knew the score, but failed to take heed. Not suggesting HMG abandons them, but future yachties will have taken note.

Commercial vessels could/should be organised into convoys with surface and aerial escorts (either private or national navies) to spot and warn off would-be pirates. Shipowners will mump about being held up to wait for a convoy formation, but their insurers may soon insist on it anyway, or specify a large no-go area that adds lots of miles to their voyage.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/28/article-1223243-06FC5BB0000005DC-38_468x458.jpg
Courtesy of the Daily Mail

So how far would a sensible person have deviated to further avoid bandit country?

If it helps further an erudite answer; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101065261274254213289.000476e6cf0220c6fdeed&ll=0.527336,50.888672&spn=30.397544,35.15625&t=h&z=4&source=embed

[airborne_artist]

Not knowing their fuel/food/water capacities/states, I've no idea what they could have done. I'm pretty sure I saw a government interviewee from the Seychelles who said that they had been advised to route down the east coast of Madagascar, the N tip of which is closer to the Seychelles than Dar es Salaam on the Tanzanian coast.

If in doubt they could have stayed in the Seychelles. Press-on-itis does not just affect aviators.

[Finnpog]

If the camps are known we should (and I deliberately quote an American here) "Send them the Love"

[rmac]

Barnstormer,

Sorry my friend. Bollocks,,,,might be the official line... not the reality


For the other doubters,

No problem with appropriate executive action, but as quoted earlier by a serving navy officer, not as easy as it looks...

rmac

[Whenurhappy]

All these proposals for 'black ops' are fine, but also illegal. There is the issue of proportionality and necessity; in very rare cases do the pirates hurt/kill their victims - to do so would undermine their 'business plan'. Clearly more action needs to be taken to deter piracry, but as long as Somalia, Somaliland and Puntland remain ungoverned spaces, piracy will continue.

[RileyDove]

I think avoiding Somalia isn't exactly the answer to the problem! Simply put these ships are operating in international waters and should be given free passage. If the government of Somalia feels unable to do anything about it maybe stopping any international aid woud be a start and then work a naval blockade to stop the movement of boats out of Somali ports. Enforce this by stop and search operations.

[airborne_artist]

If the government of Somalia feels unable to do anything about it

Somalia has no effective government. See this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/18/somali-pirates-ransom-puntland) in the Guardian yesterday:

"Sharmarke [the Somali Prime Minister] is in no position to be making such bold and unrealistic promises [about the couple taken hostage]. His foundering regime controls little more than a few streets in and around the capital Mogadishu, more than 600 miles to the south of the region in which the piracy problem persists, and that only thanks to the help of 5,300 African Union peacekeepers."

[rmac]

Interesting AA

Sounds remarkably like another regime that only controls a few streets around its parliament in Kabul and is only suported by ???? "peacekeepers" etc.

[barnstormer1968]

rmac
Check your PM's

[rmac]

BS

Thanks for your PM, you could have just asked in public, I am happy to answer you now I have a little more time, but don't expect me to get in to a point for point exchange.

Related your comments re Beslan and the theatre, clearly difficult situations, however the lack of organisation, general trigger happiness and lack of respect for human life in Russian and other ex-Soviet security forces in general is a major contributor to the body count in such incidents.

Some years back when I was in Central Asia, a French couple was taken hostage by Tajik terrorists. One of them was released (or escaped) I think it was the wife (but may recall wrongly). She was persuaded by the police to lead them back to the place they were held hostage at which time she had to witness an assault which killed both the terrorists and her husband, by design I might add, by their standards collateral damage was acceptable. Is that type of collateral damage acceptable to you off the coast of Somalia ?

Its the argument between short term expediency and long term morality based legitimacy.

Now back to my points in the original post I made. The Russian military has no respect for its own living soldiers, can't be bothered to protect them from abuse in service, when they die can't be bothered to identify them and mark their graves properly. Its "professional" contract battallions are raised mainly from the imprisoned, the desperate and those who have psychopathic tendencies. Its national service battallions are full of unfortunates who did not have the contacts or the money to escape service there and are treated as little more than indentured labour.


That general level of callousness and lack of morality governing their actions is a weakness, not a strength, thats why they are a nation with a large number of drug addicts and alcoholics and why the greater population of prostitutes in bars and hotel lobbies around the world are Russian exports. Its a nation which would be bankrupt without their oil and gas resources despite possessing a large and rich terrain to farm and to build a future on.

There are people in Russia, smart and intelligent people, who are working to change the damage done by the oafs who have run the country for decades, but its a long and difficult process to achieve in the macho power based culture that exists.

But for the time being I am not too keen on holding up the type of operations that you describe as being a workable example of how to conduct operations.

Rmac

[PTT]

Piracy is a symptom of poverty.

[stiknruda]

PTT - I believe that Piracy is a symptom of greed not poverty.

I spent 4 years in the UN's declared "poorest country" in the world with a raging civil war and inept government much like Somalia. It has a 1600 mile coastline bordering the same ocean, however, there was no piracy problem.

Street crime was minor and "relatively wealthy" expats were non targetted.

Stik

[Capt Pit Bull]

I'm not qualified to pass judgement on the ROE etc, but one thing seems pretty obvious - paying the pirates off is a deeply bad idea, and its been done too many times. This problem is significantly self inflicted.

[barnstormer1968]

rmac

Thanks for that. I only PM'd you to avoid any thread drift.
I agree with your answer and you raise many good points.

Again, I Still have not said we should adopt Russian standards, but was pointing out that they get less hassle.

However, I still feel that the UK's ROE's need looking at, and do not do us any favours on many occasions. Rules should be looked at constantly, and changed if need be (by any country). As an example, I remember the American involvement in Somalia very early on in their time in that country, where U.S. soldiers were filmed watching some locals being raped on the streets. The soldiers (could have been marines, but I can't remember) were itching to help, but were banned by their ROE as it was a civil matter.
Not long after (during the Blackhawk crew rescue) it was very different, and any hostile person was deemed a target.

(thinking about the above, it may not be the best example:}, but it shows the point to some extent):ok:

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Rmac, you may not like the way the Russian military operate, nor indeed the glorious lifestyle of the majority of the Russian citizens (I share your views) but a bit of cherry picking never did any harm. Shoot the pirates and ask quetions later...no exceptions.
If it's against "rules", change them.

[steamchicken]

The French do not appear to have suffered any ill consequences from taking pirates prisoner and taking them to France for trial.

It is and remains true that a warship is subject to exclusive flag state jurisdiction and that you could theoretically claim to be a refugee once aboard. This is true for all warships of all states.

However, there is nothing about being a refugee that exempts you from criminal responsibility. If Pirate X says this, why should we care? He can have his asylum *in the asylum*.

[PTT]

PTT - I believe that Piracy is a symptom of greed not poverty.

I spent 4 years in the UN's declared "poorest country" in the world with a raging civil war and inept government much like Somalia. It has a 1600 mile coastline bordering the same ocean, however, there was no piracy problem.

Street crime was minor and "relatively wealthy" expats were non targetted.

Stik
While I agree that greed may be a motivation for some, desparation about not wanting to live in the conditions out there is the main factor for the majority. Desparation is the motivation;,desparation caused by poveryt.
Add that to wealthy nations parading millions of dollars' worth of national resource just of your coast and you're going to get resentful and angry - it's human nature. Now give people the capability (guns) and opportunity (lawless, failed state) to act against those resources by hijacking them and you have piracy.
Resolve the poverty and you remove the motivation, resolving the issue for many.

[Ian Corrigible]

This is beginning to sound like a Woody Allen farce. Now we have anti-piracy RW assets being called in by one group of pirates to protect them from a second group of pirates...as they collect their $5.5 mil ransom.

Pirates have shootout over oil tanker release (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100118/ap_on_re_af/piracy)

A shootout between rival Somali pirate gangs over their biggest ransom ever threatened to turn an oil supertanker and the 28 hostages aboard into a massive fireball until bandits begged the anti-piracy force for help, a negotiator said Monday.

A group of pirates showed up in two speedboats just before a $5.5 million ransom was to be dropped by parachute onto the Maran Centaurus. Two helicopters from a nearby warship intervened, hovering over the attacking skiffs. Just the powerful draft beating down from their rotors was enough to frighten off the attackers, and the gunships did not fire.

After the helicopters chased away the attackers, two planes arrived and the huge bundle of cash was pushed out the back of one with a parachute attached. The pirates left the ship Monday morning.

"It's really remarkable: You have the criminals calling on the police to come and help them," said pirate expert Roger Middleton from London-based think tank Chatham House, who said it was the first time he could recall such a situation.

Reminiscent of that classic episode of COPS: "Officer, that drug dealer stole my $20..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K21oFxk2QlM)

I/C