Expired ATPL(H) Exams

[Aucky]

Hi Guys,

I did my ATPL(H) exams back in april 2003 whilst i was starting university, i have since completed a degree and CPL(H)FI(H). I am considering my options for completing the IR(H) however my exams expired over 6 years ago, so i accept that (according to lasors) i will have to do the 7 IR exams again :ugh: however does anyone know if there are any exceptions to this? or any circumstances not made clear in lasors whereby the theoretical training required is at the discretion of the FTO etc... (sorry for asking, i have looked with no such luck, but often find it's possible to miss some specifics deep in the depths of CAA docs), and i figure there will be someone here who has been though it before.

Also for the issue of an ATPL(H) further down the line would i also have to do the other ATPL exams again to avoid ending up with CPL(H)IR?

Thanks in advance guys/gals
Aucky

[helimutt]

As stated, do the exams again. Some of us had to do it so a) it's not an impossible task, b)why should you pull an 'exception? :ok::E

[Kangia]

Yes you have to do them again sadly, but you don't have to take an approved ground school as you've already done this for the ATPL's.

Once you've done the 7 they are good for another 3 years without the IR but if you enroll in an approved IR course before the end of the 3 years then the exams will hold until completion of the course even if that takes longer. You should notify the CAA if you are doing this though.

If you complete the IR then your full ATPL exams are good for 5 years from your last IR skill test or renewal. So if you have an IR for a few years without doing the ATPL skill test and then let it lapse, you still have 5 years to renew your IR without doing the exams again.

[Bravo73]

Also for the issue of an ATPL(H) further down the line would i also have to do the other ATPL exams again to avoid ending up with CPL(H)IR?


Be aware that the current system of "CPL Theory + IR Theory = ATPL Theory" is not a permanent arrangement. Under Amendment 6 of JAR-FCL 2 (we are currently on Amendment 3), this system will be abolished. (This means that you will have to re-sit ALL 14 ATPL exams in order to qualify for an ATPL(H)). Amendment 6 is currently under consultation but unfortunately, no-one seems to know when it will actually be introduced.

So, in short, don't hang around before you sit the 7 (or in certain circumstances, 6) IR exams.


(FWIW, the IR exams are relatively straight forward if you've already passed their ATPL equivalents. The IR syllabi are much shorter and the feedback on the Bristol GS site is remarkably detailed and thorough).


HTH

[paco]

As the ATPL(H) will have reverted to a CPL(H) you should be exempt human factors, as I read it.

phil

[Lightning_Boy]

Will the skills test for the ATPL(H) still have to be taken in a multi crew aircraft?

[helimutt]

I think so, and you'll need, i think, 350hrs multi time or something too. and 100hrs night flying. oh and all the other stuff that goes with it.

[Bravo73]

Will the skills test for the ATPL(H) still have to be taken in a multi crew aircraft?

Yes. (Caveat: Or a single-pilot aircraft which is authorised to be operated multi-crew in accordance with the company ops manual).

NB You have to demonstrate your ability to act as a Captain in a multi-crew operation. This might be a bit tricky if you're on your own! ;)

[Lightning_Boy]

From memory....I don't think any of my LST's have been on my own, whether it's been in a multi crew or single pilot type, I've ALWAYS had the TRE with me :ok:

[Aucky]

Thanks for all your comments guys, back to the books for me.

Bravo - thanks for the info, good to hear the IR syllabi are less dense than the ATPL equivalents, i thought they were the same exams. With regards to your mention of - CPL theory + IR theory = ATPL theory... are you saying that this is applicable to me because although i did the full ATPL syllabus it has since lapsed to CPL Theory or do you think that presuming i complete the IR i will still get the 5 years from the IR test/renewal?

helimutt - didn't mean to strike a chord, i really meant to ask if there are any 'circumstances' rather than 'exceptions'. I don't consider myself an exception, however in my experiences with the CAA there are occasionally circumstances that may alter the stated requirements, and sometimes we need a little help with exactly where to look. Would rather ask to be sure :oh:

Cheers all, Aucky

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Auchy

Its not CPL theory + IR theory = ATPL theory credit.

Its holding a CPL(H) with an IR(H) which was gained under ammendment 3 of JAR FCL 2 which gives you the ATPL(H) theory credit.

You should be able to get a credit for HPL but you need to ask the CAA for this.

I would get the CAA to confirm in writting what youve asked to avoid any problems in the future.

[Bravo73]

From memory....I don't think any of my LST's have been on my own, whether it's been in a multi crew or single pilot type, I've ALWAYS had the TRE with me :ok:

Ah, but in essence, whilst operating a single-pilot aircarft, you are essentially 'on your own', even though you have the TRE sat in the seat next to you. He/she is there to monitor and assess your performance, not to act as part of the crew.

But then I guess that you really knew that all along... :rolleyes:


Aucky - Thomas has got it spot on. In short, don't hang around - take the IR exams before Amendment 6 is introduced. If you delay too long, then you will definitely have to retake ALL 14 ATPL exams in order to qualify for an ATPL(H). Once you have passed the IR, you have in effect an indefinite period to gain the ATPL(H) (presuming that you renew your IR each year).

[Aucky]

Thanks guys, best got on the case quick then :ooh: can anyone suggest the best organisations to do the IR ground school/brush up training with? Bravo - you mentioned the Bristol GS site, having just spoken to them they said they don't do the IR ground school, only the ATPL's... not sure if this is a recent change or a misunderstanding of your first post on my part?

There is a list regarding IR training on the Bristol GS site (under the skills and IR training header) Bristol.gs (http://www.bristol.gs/groundschool/support_links.aspx) but some first hand info would be much appreciated.

Aucky

[Whirlygig]

I think there's only two schools that do IR(H) theory - Atlantic Flight Traning in Coventry and CAPT (Phil Croucher's place!!). The latter is more heli-specific.

Cheers

Whirls

[Aucky]

Thanks whirls, does anyone have any info that they would be able to share about either? Pm's appreciated if necessary for obvious reasons ;)

Cheers, Aucky

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

The IR exams are not helicopter or fixed wing specific (Unless they've changed since I completed them, which I don't think they have)

I did my ground school at GTS at Bournemouth airport.

Once you've completed the theory exams I'd recommend Bristow at Gloucester airport for the IR flight course.

[paco]

It's odd you should say that, Thomas - that's what I was told, yet my approval certificate says IR(H). Go figure. GTS come highly recommended!

There's no real information as yet as to when Amendment 6 is coming in, so there's a little window of opportunity right now.

Phil

[Bravo73]

Bravo - you mentioned the Bristol GS site, having just spoken to them they said they don't do the IR ground school, only the ATPL's... not sure if this is a recent change or a misunderstanding of your first post on my part?

Aucky - you're right, you have slightly misunderstood my post. Bristol GS don't offer the IR theory course but they do have a database of over 11,000 ATPL questions: ATPonline (http://www.atponline.gs/jalo/index.asp) (AKA the 'feedback'). Once you have completed the IR theory course, pay £50 and you will have 3 months access to all of these previous questions. (£50 is obviously less than the £60 it will cost you to re-take any exam that you fail by being under-prepared!) Just bear in mind that you won't have to bother with any of the questions which are are only in the ATPL syllabus. CAVEAT: Don't think that you can just shortcut the theory course by going straight to the feedback. These questions only help you to consolidate your learning, they won't actually teach you the subject matter.

With regard to providers, Atlantic Flight training were ok, but not great. I've also had very good reports about GTS in Bournemouth and you won't go wrong if you go to Paco and his CAPT.

And for the practical IR(H) course, Thomas's advice is right on the money - don't bother looking anywhere else other than Bristow/Severn at Gloucester. Probably the best IR training school in the country at the moment, and deservedly so.


I hope this helps and if you've got any further questions, please don't hesitate to PM me.

[Aucky]

Thankyou guys, your comments have been very useful :ok:, now loaded with the info I need, it's time to try and beat amendment 6 to it, best not hang about. safe flying all,

aucky

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi Auchy

Even if amendment 6 of JAR FCL 2 was implicated by the UK CAA, you would only have to do 5 of the ATPL exams, that’s if the original exams you done were JAA ATPL, you would get a credit for the rest.

But as stated earlier the UK CAA are still using edition 3 of JAR FCL 2, so at the moment you can do the IR exams and once you have your IR(H) you will have an ATPL(H) theory credit. This is assuming your JAA CPL(H) was issued by the UK CAA, which looking at your location I presume it was.

I also used the Bristol GS question bank, which was excellent, I believe Paco also has an exam question bank.

It’s a bit of a ball ache having to do the theory exams again but once you’ve got your IR(H) it makes it all worth it.

[Aucky]

Thanks a lot tank, all useful stuff :ok:

Aucky

[heliwes]

Does Lasors 08 Para J1.7 allow not doing the resits at discretion of Head of Training at FTO ? specifically the para
" Failure to comply with Acceptance Period
If a CPL and IR are not granted within the 36 month
acceptance period then the ATPL theory credit will lapse.
Candidates will be required to re-pass all ATPL theoretical
knowledge examinations to regain ATPL theory credit.
However, it has been agreed that where a candidate
has previously passed all ATPL theoretical knowledge
examinations but were not granted a CPL/IR within the 36
month acceptance period, the amount of ATPL theoretical
knowledge instruction will be at the discretion of the Head
of Training of the Approved FTO."

[Whirlygig]

No, all that means is that the Head of Training may not require the candidate to sit the mandatory classroom element of the course. They must still, however, si all thr exams again.

Cheers

Whirls

[dmouseair]

Here is a good one for you:

UK CPL(H) converted to JAR CPL(H) when licence expired. I sat the UK papers in '94 when the ATPL was issued after a minimum requirement was met.

Missed out on UK ATPL(H) due to being short of the 20hrs night(by one hour-ish), when the JAA came in - had 3000hrs + day.

I now want to do an IR(H), but also would like the option of ATPL issue in future should I go multi-crew etc. In other words if I am going to do some exams, I might as well remove any future restrictions to a licence issue. In a for a penny in for a fortune......

I have over 4500hrs rotary, 700hrs+ twin, 500+ night now, and fly for the Police.

Question 1: Do I need to do the full JAR ATPL(H) set of exams to give me the ability to hold a frozen ATPL, and to cover me for the IR?

Question 2: Can I still gain an ATPL(H) in the future by doing the IR exams only, and of course meeting the other JAA ATPL(H) requirements?

My head hurts just thinking about this and thats before I have to resit exams I have already taken once......ho hummm

I think I know the answer........but 7 is my lucky number!

[ThomasTheTankEngine]

Hi at the moment you only need to do the 7 ir exams, and when you have a jaa cpl(h)ir, you would also have an atpl(h)ir theory credit, this is because the uk caa are still using ammendment 3 of jar fcl 2.

See LASORS important note and section g3.3

If you wait to long and the caa start using a latter ammedment of jar fcl 2, you would have to do all the atpl exams, thats if you want a cpl(h)ir with an atpl theory credit. This is because in 1994 you done the national exams and not jaa.

I would get this in writting of the CAA.

[dmouseair]

Thomas TTE, thank-you for those sweet words......

I had read that, but had heard conflicting views.

I had signed up with Bristol GS for Mod 1 ATPL(H) last year, who stated that I had to do the full set to gain JAR ATPL(H).This was due to old UK national exams not counting as being pre-JAR, and no credit was given. It was all a while ago now, and my memory is not as it should be especially after a 12hr shift!

Can anyone pm me with details of the CAPT IR(H) course, and how it differs from the likes of Atlantic.....who I also have the notes for?

I seem to be collecting training notes, the way this is going!

I should really get cracking with all this, as previous efforts have been put on the back burner for various reasons.

Regards,

DM.

[Aucky]

Quick update, thanks to all for their help on this thread, took many peoples advice and did the Bournemouth GTS brush up course with a quick 2 week cram beforehand :}, exams last monday, the instructors were very knowledgeable and helpful and covered much more than exams required despite the short timetable :ok: (except FMS databases which came up a few times and i'm told is not in the IR(H) syllabus, but spilled over from ATPL questions, contested either way) :=

No doubt CAPT is also very good :) but wanted to share my pleasant experience, as it's nice to see the quality of training is high and the instructors are very helpful.

Aucky