Md902 Explorer Ship ops.

[DeltaNg]

Does anyone have experience of operating a MD902 Explorer in the offshore environment, in particular to/from small bow helidecks on vessels, and lifting to and from a moving platform (or similar) ?

I would be interested to hear your experiences regarding pitch/roll limits, unstable deck landings, handling and lifting at MAUW and performance in turbulent offshore conditions.

Thanks ! :ok:

[DeltaNg]

anybody? :bored:

[cyclic]

Plenty of experience with a 105 but that probably isn't much use to you. Which ship are you going to operate from? Is it UK based?

[Sulley]

not much help i'm afraid but i'm guessing probably one that used to have a Bo105 flying to it :suspect:

[DeltaNg]

I'm just interested to hear how the 902 is as a load-lifting platform. Just a question and nothing more than that :confused:

[Oogle]

Maybe the helicopter pilots from the Motor Yacht "Octopus" could help you out as that is exactly what they do.

S-76 & MD902 both operate to and from the yacht.

[DeltaNg]

Is that the only known operation? or are the lots of Explorers regularly working ships?

[GANNET FAN]

Sadly Oogle, the term yacht has been stretched more and more over recent years as they have become larger. Even the classification that the craft have to comply with (including helicopter operations) makes it more of a ship than yacht. One such is 270' overall and for sale at Euro 130 million. The trouble is I'm not sure what the alternative name for a yacht under these circumstances should be!

[griffothefog]

Is this thread a masked inquiry about how the 902 will replace the Bolkow on Trinity House....? :E
It will be very interesting to see the outcome.... One of the better qualities of the 105 for boat ops in rough seas was the huge width between skids which made it very forgiving in that enviroment :ok: Mind you it don't matter how wide they are if you don't strap the bugger down :{
Good luck with the explorer guy's... :eek:

[vortexadminman]

Me thinks the exploder will be great at that tasking.:ok:

[DeltaNg]

Well the trusty old Bolkow is slowly being phased out, and it's up to the new generation now to replace her.

It's only natural to look around and see if there are any other established operations doing the same thing, but so far, with the lack of response to this thread, it can't be a common thing. So perhaps this is a world first for the 902 in this role (underslinging from moving vessels?) Do I stand to be corrected?

[DeltaNg]

vortexadminman: I have no doubt the 902 is a fine piece of machinery. I've never flown one so I know nothing (hence the thread).Is your confidence based on proven examples elsewhere or is it just based on your experience of the aircraft in other roles?

[vortexadminman]

Nope I have no personal time in exploders offshore. However a fair few are being used by the rig pigs in various countries, and they do well. For small distances they have good payload (especially with 207 engines) . Can winch, underslung loads. Now that it has come of age so to speak in UK I know who has the new contract for the lighthouse game and hope they do well at it. Your right in saying good old bertie bolkow was and is a great machine but it has had its day (haven't we all) and have been overtaken by the youngsters. Skids and ships are always a hard game so that would be fun if some one gave me the chance I would love to do that.:ok:

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...


....Skids and ships are always a hard game so that would be fun ......

Ha ... an accurate statement but I'm not sure calling it fun is so correct!


:eek:

[timex]

Certainly lets you know when you get it wrong...........:E:E

[DeltaNg]

Yes, that's a good thing about the Bo105, built like a tank, it can take whatever is thrown at it. Such a hardy little thing, perfect for small ship based ops. The rigid blades are great for starting and stopping in the gusty conditions too. It's does exactly as expected when load lifting at MAUW, plenty of TR authority and you can feel when she's not happy.

And the 902.........can someone make a comparison?

[bolkow]

Well Irish Lights have almost a year under their belts using the EC135T2+ EI-ILS. Tons of power and plenty of tail rotor authority. One issue I did notice was a lack of boot space, and it slants up so suddenly things heavy or otherwise can fall out as soon as a ground handler opens the boot, though they were going to get nets and possibly reduce the inside to five seats to extend the boot. I know its not an answer about the heli you mentioned but my experiences are limited.

[DeltaNg]

Good to know it's working well, apart from the boot ! The 135 is, after all, the Bolkow replacement aircraft, rigid head and all. It seems a natural choice for that kind of operation. The 902 I'm sure will be equally able given that it is designed to be the "perfect helicopter".

It's not always the obvious problems that become issues in a new helicopter in a different role. On paper, they look the part, like buying a new car. But then strange things happen, minor little insignificant things start to become a real issue. The 139 on the SNS is a prime example. It had it all on paper but in reality, when flying a offshore for 8 hours a day, things became apparent that took a long time to solve. C of G problems with the offshore kit fitted . Fuel and range issues. etc. New roles test parts of an aircraft like never before. A bit like us when we do something different, muscles hurt you never knew you had......

[vortexadminman]

do I detect a bit of a 135 fan here Delta? I am not an exploder driver or a 135 one either. I have mates who are both and even the 135 drivers agree that the 902 will be fine in this new role. I don;t one to start a 135 vs 902 debate but this is a rumour network after all...........:ok:

[DeltaNg]

Okay I'll get back in my box then.

[bolkow]

And the mirrors for the underslung laod load on the EC135 can be set from the cockpit, no more getting the ground handler to "left a little, no, odwn, justa tad" etc etc!

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Out of interest bolkow, are the 135's mirrors on the pilot's side? Couldn't believe the fit on the Bo - am told it is all down to the position of the pitots, had to have the mirrors on the left :ugh:

[bolkow]

yes, port side on the bolkow and pilots side on the EC135.
Not sure I ever enquired why on the left on the bolkow but I gues sthat reason is quite plausible.

[DeltaNg]

Where are the mirrors fitted on a 902?

[bolkow]

If you are asking me I have no idea.

[DeltaNg]

I am asking the hundreds of 902 loadlifting pilots out there !!

[bolkow]

LOL, I cant understand how they can manage to hide that many from my gaze!
When the London ambulance replaced their previous dauphine with a 902 some years back, I remember a colleague that flew for that service then remarking baout it being unreliable and he said it was frequenly undergoing unscheduled maintainance in stark contrast to the previous dauphin. A year later the aircraft was advertised for sale but I dont think they got any takers. I think it was that and one or two other indirect conversations had with those who know it that created the thought in my mind that they might be junk, or at best not of the ilk and reliability required along with robustness in the offshore role.

[winchman]

Cant think of a finer machine personally, no week point tail rotor and one switch to turn the engines on, perfect!!!!!!

Why the bad press???? Is some pissed off that the 902 is taking over at Trinity house???:ugh:

[bolkow]

To be honest to me I dod not know one was taking over at trinity house. Any more details on that, is it offical in any sense yet? If the machine is reliable I'd imagine the boot space is plentiful.

[nodrama]

Yes, it's official...

http://www.specialist-aviation.co.uk/documents/SpecialistAviationGoesOffshore-21Sept09.doc

[DeltaNg]

I started the thread and I'm not giving any bad press.

The purpose of the thread is hear from people who have utilised the 902 in an offshore ship based role, so we can learn about it from others.

[DeltaNg]

902 is not used on ships (but there is one on a yacht).

[DeltaNg]

Confined "unreccied" LS's are not a problem on Trinity ops as all the sites are known and loved.

The scenario is extreme turbulence operating in winds of up to 45-55 knots in exposed coastal rock stations, and underslinging at MAUW out of wind in gusty, turbulent conditions.

Add in a moving deck and the operation is rather different to Police/Air Ambulance.

[Coconutty]

Where are the mirrors fitted on a 902?MD Web site is a good place for answers :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/902Mirror.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[DeltaNg]

Hooray - I looked at the website but I didn't find that. It looks great.

Also is that a bubble door?

And it looks like the pilot sits on the left for underslinging. Is that what you do Coconutty?

[Coconutty]

No - I don't do underslung loads in the 902 - just posted the pic for you :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[DeltaNg]

so you don't actually know anything about it then - you just googled it. :rolleyes:

[zorab64]

DeltaNg Is that the only known operation? or are the lots of Explorers regularly working ships? andI am asking the hundreds of 902 loadlifting pilots out there !!

Agree with vortex, that one doesn't wish to start a 135 vs 902 debate, but I'd suggest you're likely to get more answers from the 135 community, if only due to the number of machines brought into service to date - something over 800 135s compared to 125ish 902s. I'm willing to stand corrected, but I don't think I'm far off the mark! :ok:

From an airframe point of view, I'd be surprised if the head & blade combo of the 902 (specifically the flex beam) will be able to stand up to the same sort of punishment as the 135 head when operating in real (i.e. all weather) ship-borne operations, especially if it spends any time shut down, with blades spread, on deck in any sort of wind - it's not quite the same as sitting on the back/front of a gin-palace-yacht-ship in the Mediterranean sun!! :=

[DeltaNg]

Well done matey,

these are exactly the sort of points that I'm trying to learn more about.

I'm not starting a tit for tat debate I just want some considered input from people who know a bit about the 902 and what the things to watch out for are.

The aircraft has already been bought for this role., so there's no going back to anything else. I'm just trying to get some ideas on how best to operate it in these conditions.

[griffothefog]

Just as well they automated the light ships :eek:

The 902 wouldn't have stood a chance, too top heavy.... On a wet day with a slack tide those things were lethal, then add copious guano for good measure and you would have a rink Robin Cousins would have been proud of :ok:

Good luck to all,

[handysnaks]

I'm pretty sure that either a Belgian or Dutch Company used the 902 for dropping off harbour pilots so that probably included a bit of winch work and the odd deck landing. For deck work I would have thought the 902 would be fine, no experience of USLs with the 902 I'm afraid.

[DeltaNg]

Griffo - that was the first thing that struck me as I stood next to the towering beast. Can't help but think that it'll feel uncomfortable sitting on a pitching deck. Wonder what the actual limits are...
I notice from the bumff on the website there is a an elaborate tie down procedure for ship-borne ops. Hmmm.

[timex]

Can't see why you are worrying, Gazelle, Lynx, Wessex, Sea King etc etc and numerous other types seem to have managed so I don't see why the 902 won't. (Not a 902 driver).

[DeltaNg]

I'm just haunted by the memory of G-BKZE on the West Navion some years ago.

[Gullwings]

Looking at the following links it appears that some early versions of the MD Explorer (known as the MH-90 Enforcer) have already successfully carried out maritime operations with the US Coastguard as described in the following links:
MH-90 Enforcer (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/mh-90.htm)

U.S. Coast Guard Aviation History (http://www.uscg.mil/history/webaircraft/AC_HITRON_History.asp)

Those operations may have actually involved at least 4 of the helicopters and appears to have been successful and much liked by the US Coastguard.

I also suspect that back in those days less powerful engines may have been used than those currently available on the more modern MD902 Explorer. With even more engine power available I would have thought that would make them even better for maritime operations.

However, as I am not a pilot I cannot speak with any authority about that.

[DeltaNg]

Thanks gullwings - that's exactly the sort of links I'm looking for.

Cheers :ok:

[griffothefog]

Timex and Gullwings,

The 902 landing on THV Mermaid or Patricia during winter ops will be exciting enough for those concerned, but my last post was really referring to the old days when we did crew changes to the various light vessels around the coast..... If you see one up close and personal you will know what I mean :eek:

Anyways, enough of the war stories...... I'm sure the 902 will cope with the larger Trinity decks no problem. Have fun guy's :ok:

[Freewheel]

I'm sure there was a marine pilot operation in China (Shanghai?) that used the 902.

Unfortunately the operation suffered a fatal accident as noted on a thread here.

I've no idea if there was an investigation or a report, but there might be something out there.

[zorab64]

Timex - re C of G Can't see why you are worrying, Gazelle, Lynx, Wessex, Sea King etc etc and numerous other types seem to have managed so I don't see why the 902 won't.
Interesting that you compare such aircraft to the 902, from a C of G standpoint.
In turn
- Gazelle, very low C of G, albeit on a fairly narrow track skid, but never used "properly" (i.e. over the ocean) as a ship-borne aircraft, rather used from Amphibious Decks, and therefore close to shore without a lot of deck movement.
- Lynx - really low C of G, fabulous "flat" gearbox, sub-min pitch, harpoon and tricycle undercarriage with massive shock absorbtion ability - ideally suited for big ocean, small shipborne operations & embarrassed to be compared to a 902 in this role!
- Wessex - engines in the chin gave it a much lower C of G than might be expected from just looking at it. Tricycle undercarriage and well able to handle ship ops, though generally operated from larger vessels and, apart from the Mk3, more often used close to shore for Amphibious Ops.
- Sea King - Queen of Ocean ops for over 40 years, generally operated from larger decks and not worth comparing to a 902 either!

Overall, comparisons, on the grounds of top-heaviness should probably not be made with any of the mentioned aircraft, all which have all proved themselves many times over in every role they've been called upon to perform, and many others they've found themselves in. The comparator, on the other hand, despite being a generation or two "ahead" of the four types mentioned, will take many years to be regarded in a similar light, I'd provocatively suggest!! ;)

[Larryishappy]

having been around both the 902 and EC135 i think they are both very capable aircraft. For the planned use of the 902 i think it will be a great machine to work with

[DeltaNg]

zorab: I think you are right in suggesting that any aircraft cannot be considered proven until tested in an environment such as offshore, as it much more extreme than onshore ops.

LarryIsHappy: I hope you're right.

[nodrama]

- Gazelle, very low C of G, albeit on a fairly narrow track skid, but never used "properly" (i.e. over the ocean) as a ship-borne aircraft, rather used from Amphibious Decks, and therefore close to shore without a lot of deck movement.



I must have imagined all those flight deck watches I did in the Atlantic Ocean, watching Gazelle pilots anticipating the deck movement and bouncing the skids on......

I get your point though.