Dubai Airshow 2009

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Will soon be upon us, just thinking what BIG orders will be placed.

Last year and the previous year were record orders, will this year be a record smallest orders placed.

Any ideas?

glf

[Itswindyout]

Perhaps this will be the start, EK drops the bus.

windy

[Short Approach?]

It's not an airshow. It's a cockdisplay

[CaptainProp]

So true, so true....

I was actually hoping that things were slowly picking up, at least in business aviation. Have heard of lots of "positive" signs on my trips over the last 2 months or so. However, then along came NetJets US and got rid of some 500 pilots (equates to 100 ac?) so they are obviously not seeing the same positive "signs" that I have been hearing about.... :ooh:

Airline orders? Not likely. Nothing to write home about anyway.

I would not expect any major changes to the current business climate until earliest 2011.

CP

[fractional]

If EK drops the bus, QR will do the same on boeing...:}

[MrMachfivepointfive]

If anybody drops anything it will surely NOT be announced at an airshow.
You will find those news on page 62 of Gulfnews one day. Right behind the story about the Mirdif cat strangler.

[airtractor]

Is there anyway to go to that airshow without being a "trade visitor"?
Can you make you way tru with a pilot licence?

cheers

[ATCO1962]

From an air traffic point of view, it's ludicrous staging the airshow at the busiest unit in these parts. As though we don't already have enough problems that need taking care of. Let's just add another camel back-breaker!

We have so many other airports that could host the show but I guess it's a case of "it's not OUR airfield":yuk:

A few of you airline types ought to complain and explain how complex airline scheduling is at a hub and what chaos can result when you close a major airport for any length of time.

[silverware]

I was there a few years ago, it was very interesting.
Amongst others, i ran into military top-brass negotiating with a manufacturer of clusterbombs that left "a clean battle field"...
There was a large military static display, alot of US Air Force planes (A10, Stealth Fighter).
At a certain moment the anouncer told that they unfortunately had to interupt the fly by's for the "paying customers of the airport" and in came the Emirates A330's and A340's and other commercial traffic, allowed a slot of only 30 minutes!
Only in DXB they will partialy close a busy commercial airport for an airshow, great!

[diplomat-not]

@Short Approach?

It's not an airshow. It's a cockdisplay

Then all the single Air Hostesses out & about Dubai will be there in big numbers!!!!:}

Tak.......

[MATMAX]

cockdisplay in dishdashas ...

[fluffy5]

Yep single air Hosties, there will be more money earnt in the hotels in the next few days...........:}

[OMDB-PiLoT]

Is there anyway to go to that airshow without being a "trade visitor"?
Can you make you way tru with a pilot licence?

cheers

I am wondering the same thing. Anyone?

[silverware]

I entered with my airline ID and my wife with a business card, it worked back then (2003!!).

[Payscale]

I jumped the fence and ran over the runway...the airport is closed isnt it?:}

Actually i think the last couple of days are for the public.

[charger]

Hi all,

Does anybody have a link with the flying display program for the Dubai air show?

Many thanks,

C.

[Spewing Stew]

http://dubaiairshow.aero/visitors/aircraft_list.html

[charger]

Cheers!..................................................... ......................limited internet on my phone thats why i'm asking

[oscarlimatango]

i had to show my pass plus 5 other ids to get in!

[helen-damnation]

Sunday flyers were:

Patrouille Acrobatique de France

Rafale

F16

F22

Super Mushak

Alenia Aermacchi M346

Catic L15

PC21

HAP Tiger

A380

Typhoon

F15E

C-27J Spartan

Frecce Tricolori

Think I got them all (just about the right order), if not, I will be swiftly corrected :ouch:

Cheers,

H-D

[Gulfstreamaviator]

They seem to have a positive view, as far as the corporate world is concerned.
Not able to get to the show, so using the National Newspaper as my intelegence source.

glf

[fractional]

Ethiopian orders 12 A350s
Yemenia announces $700m Airbus order
Etihad announces Dh2.7bn investment
flydubai announces deals worth Dh660m
etc..
The orders of aircraft, engines and other aviation material have started. Ethiopian is news. First Airbus orders.

[OMDB-PiLoT]

I was there today. Had to show my passport, pay Dhs. 200 (multi-entry pass) and go through scanners. Good experience.

[recceguy]

From an air traffic point of view, it's ludicrous staging the airshow at the busiest unit in these parts. As though we don't already have enough problems that need taking care of. Let's just add another camel back-breaker!
We have so many other airports that could host the show but I guess it's a case of "it's not OUR airfield"
A few of you airline types ought to complain and explain how complex airline scheduling is at a hub and what chaos can result when you close a major airport for any length of time

We just ask the Air Traffic to shut up and obey.
If the Airshow is in DXB, it's for plenty of good reasons, which it's a pity if you don't understand them. So stay at your level of expertise... and don't try to get any other picture, just vector us on the ILS and give us a landing clearance, and that should be enough.
But ATC usually think they are the center of the Aerospace World, don't they ?

[jetjockey737]

recceguy

That was a bit strong wasn't it?

[puff m'call]

I watched the airshow from the balcony of Costa at EGHQ on day one. In my view it was a bit of a weak affair, a few fast jets making alot of noise, (well we all like that) and SLUF doing a good display for a big jet but so what? :D
B747 can do the same.

I've been to many International airshows and this one doesn't even come close.:rolleyes:

Only goes to show you don't need an airshow at a large busy airport screwing up an airlines schedule to place an order for some aircraft!!:ugh:

Hold the dam thing at Al Ain next time. :ok:

[Schibulsky]

@recceguy
Would you enlighten us with your level of expertise about the plenty good reasons why this is a good idea?
Looks like the rest of the world has another opinion and stage their airshows at minor airports.
Otherwise I would ask YOU to shut up and keep obeying the commands from ATC even if it obviously hurts your feelings you arrogant :mad:

[Tower Ranger]

Recceguy, your complete lack of understanding of the DXB operation is really quite sweet, maybe you should have really impressed us and written it in French too.

[singleseater]

Must not forget, although this is called an Airshow, it is in-fact a trade show. The displays are nice, but unlike a proper Airshow, they are not the reason for being there. It is all about the almighty $$.

[NZ X man]

Mirdiff Cat strangler, you say you have located the Mirdiff Cat strangler?

[ATCO1962]

recceguy,

I may be wrong, but I can't think of any other major airfield that routinely closes for an airshow each year so there must be some good reasons for NOT having an airshow at such fields. Perhaps you would be so kind as to suggest why having schedules thrown into chaos is a good thing for struggling airlines and their passengers.

Again, I'm one of the poor suckers in these parts who has to sort out the sometimes complicated results of these airshows being staged and it ain't always easy.

I love airshows and have taken my family members along to the ones that I could so my comments are not from an anti point of view. They are simply from someone who has worked here for around 20 years (my expertise, if you like) and one who knows from an inside track how silly it is to use Dubai for a good airshow when there are a number of other good alternatives in the UAE that wouldn't bring the disruption that results in holding the show in Dubai.

As for your comment about ATC being the centre of the aviation world; I think that that speaks volumes about yourself and not about air traffic controllers these days, who have our own type of CRM. We encourage our people to be team players, not only amongst ourselves but with every person involved in the business that we're in. We've come a long way, baby!

[5star]

small correction. It's every 2 years buddy....

[cuberoute]

What time are the air displays please ?

[ATCO1962]

Because I care and have to deal with the fallout. It's not just Emirates flights that are affected.

[S.F.L.Y]

I may be wrong, but I can't think of any other major airfield that routinely closes for an airshow

Le Bourget is the busiest business aviation airfield in Europe and as such it could be an example. Also keep in mind that the display volume is very very close to Charles De Gaulle and definitely affects its traffic as well.

[cuberoute]

What time are the air displays please ?

[Heritage 1]

From 2pm every day.

[h3dxb]

Mirdiff Cat strangler, you say you have located the Mirdiff Cat strangler?


Damn, when the cat strangler is in Mirdiff, I think I saw her yersterday. Was a local female, sitting in front of Spinneys and trying to strangle a white persian cat with a lash. Poor Furball.....

Anyhow, was on the airshow, OK I'm not a pilot, I have a profession and got a ticket from a client. Had to grap a free bag, to have enough space for all these free presents. Still struggling today, which pin I will wear...

Lot of military stuff to buy. Was interested in the Typhoon, but didn't get a good discount. Every time this F22 was to loud, even when Jetnoise makes me horny, this skipped the deal.

Anyhow ,went off with 2 Aerlington machine guns for my H3, now I have free way on the Sheik Zayed Road.

Impressive was the A380, OK You cannot go in (invitation only) but what the f&ck , we have already five. Had a look on the displayplane from EY (EK has nothing there, all flying, thats why we have to buy another 100 or so). Anyhow there was a displaycaptain who was also head of recruitment for flightcrew, dropped all the business cards from my pilot friends, this will be fun when they figure out....that they can earn more money there :ok:

Maybe I'll go once more tomorrow, still interested in this Typhoons :)

Have fun

[keep_smiling]

By Max Kingsley-Jones ([email protected])
Oman Air (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/oman%20air.html) has placed an order for five Embraer (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/embraer.html) 175s for delivery from the first quarter of 2011. The deal is worth $177.5 million.
Four of the aircraft will be operated by Oman Air in a two-class 72-seat layout. The fifth will be operated by the Omani police force. The deal includes purchase rights for five more aircraft.
Dubai 09: Oman Air signs for up to 10 Embraer 175s-17/11/2009-Dubai-Flight Daily News (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/11/17/335084/dubai-09-oman-air-signs-for-up-to-10-embraer-175s.html)

[recceguy]

@recceguy
Would you enlighten us with your level of expertise about the plenty good reasons why this is a good idea?
Recceguy doesn't usually apologizes.
Sorry for all of you guys who suffer from an extra workload and some disruption of your shifts, but we are a lot here - at least in the neighbouring countries - who consider the benefits of this particular airshow significally outweigh the minor disruption of your daily routines.
Your Rulers have decided that the DXB Airshow was going to happen years ago already, and being involved in the Middle-East industry, I don't see any change coming in the foreseeable future.
So now, do you want a title in Flight Daily News like " Dubai ATC complains about extra workload during the Air show " ... ? .... please keep whining and for sure it will happen.
The question had the answer in it.

[Dubaian]

I believe this year's show was supposed to have taken place at the new Dubai Central (or whatever it's called......) near Jebel Ali. But like most of the mega projects in DXB that's not on schedule.

I hope those at the show can see the flying displays ? I don't live far very away from the airport. I can hear them (sometimes loudly) - but I can't see them because of the polluted murk that passes for normal atmospheric conditions in DXB nowadays. :(:(

[Gulf News]

I take my hat off to the DXB ATCO’s for a job well done during the airshow. The handling of the EK aircraft in the departure window 15:30 to 16:00 LT yesterday was a work of art. It obviously took a lot of planning and co-ordination. To launch as many departures as you guys did given the time constraints was a remarkable achievement. It was also quite something to watch from the flight deck whilst on taxiway P waiting our turn as each aircraft departed with one runway length separation.:D

UAE and Bahrain ACC coped well too but things started to come apart a bit in the Baghdad FIR. Perhaps Mr. Schibulsky and his merry band could have dispersed the northbounds a bit better taking into account the non-RVSM, separation requirements and weather on the road to KABAN.

You cant win em all. Thanks and well done DXB ATC.

[Dubaian]

The 'Fat Lady' just got fatter. An order placed at the airshow apparently for A380 with an all economy 840 Pax configuration :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
gulfnews : La Reunion carrier orders two A380s with record 840 passenger capacity (http://gulfnews.com/business/aviation/la-reunion-carrier-orders-two-a380s-with-record-840-passenger-capacity-1.528939)

[Schibulsky]

small correction, I am not ATC DXB but used to be ex ATC EDDF, ex german ops ctrl and now a very happy ex EK dispatcher ;)
So I may have a bit more insight into flight operations than Mr. recceguy who pissed me off with his arrogant view of ATC and who now revealed that he thinks if the ruler says so its a good reason:ugh:
Looks like there are more morons who applaud the local wankathlons and don't even bother to have second thoughts about that crap.
The Dubai 7's were easily relocated almost to Al Ain but thats not possible for the Airshow??
And recceguy...don't bother to "apologize" again...it wasn't one anyway!!!

[Gulf News]

small correction, I am not ATC DXB but used to be ex ATC EDDF, ex german ops ctrl and now a very happy ex EK dispatcher
So I may have a bit more insight into flight opera

My point entirely. ATC did a great job but EK dispatch could have planned the routings a bit better for the whole wave of aircraft through non RVSM airspace in the Bagdad FIR. I know you guys are short staffed and under pressure so it was just an observation and an indication as to where things could be improved.

[Schibulsky]

no offense taken, it's actually good to see pilots appreciate the work, trying to understand and have a good working relationship with ATC and Dispatch.
And you are right, EK dispatch is f:mad:d as they are working basically with the same numbers of staff as 2 years ago :eek:
Lots of new aircrafts delivered since then, more ULR flights...do the math :ugh:
Good luck:ok:

[Payscale]

ATC Dubai... If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!Waiting for my turn to hold at Desdi!! Dont know how many diverted. Unacceptable in my honest opinion. NO EAT issued. You are about no 15 I was told.Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes. Cant you use both runways for simultaneous landings, until everyone is down. Maybe its not the simple. Please enlighten me! :bored:

[Aeroflop]

I want to avoid thread creep here as much a s possible but I think Payscale deserves an answer.

For starters I work at the ACC. Its my job to hold the traffic when required. Normally we send traffic into DXB Airspace 10nm in trail. Not a problem normally as you can quite effectively use a combination of speeds, some spine chilling, but creative vectoring to achieve the required spacing and sometimes the hold. You need to use the hold more when Dubai call for 20nm in trail through DESDI and/or BUBIN. Unfortunately this is becoming more and more common. Sometimes we see no reason why Dubai need 20nm spacing and get just as frustrated as the pilots as our workload increases to unsafe levels. I was incensed the other day, when, just as we were finishing our shift, Dubai called us and said that they were "just settling in for the night and would like to start off spacing thru Desdi and Bubin at 15nm in trail" even though there was no significant traffic inbound. This is not the way the game should be played boys. On the other hand, I did have much experience with other crews who quite happily run on 10nm in trail all night from both gates. Big experience gap there I say throughout the crews in Dubai.

Holding elsewhere in the FIR waiting for a slot in the DESDI hold is becoming more and more a common feature of night duties. Its dangerous. We have no room to vector not to mind hold. Whatever about the shortcomings in the ACC, Dubai also need to play their part and sit down and start brainstorming. There are ways in which traffic could be handled more expedisiously, like introducing arrival slots, helping the ACC utilise the stack more effectively, by using BOTH runways more effectively and reducing the in trail spacing on final approach appropriatly. There are many many busier airports in the world than Dubai that can handle far greater amounts of traffic from which we can learn.

I'm not making a dig at DXB Controllers. I've worked with some great crews and people who are willing to work together to make things safer and more expeditious. All sectors have their good controllers and just as many bad ones. But I think its time both places sat around a table, worked together and started coming up with solutions. The busier its getting, more people get frustrated, and ultimately more mistakes will be made. :ok:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Aeroflop

Believe me. it's just as frustrating from our end - we all know that there are ways to make things move more efficiently but we also know that nothing is going to change in the short term.

I also agree that some play the game more than others. That works both ways too........not much point , for example, shortcutting southerly arrivals to ESVAD at 300kts for 30L when there are already 7 downwind and a bunch more being vectored around the TMA, is there? :ugh:

As for the gate spacing - I also agree that some flexibility is required. However, leaving it at 10nm all night is not neccessarily very big or clever either. Give the crews the choice of pootling around the hold, clean, at a known fuel burn rate or vectors all around the emirate at low altitude and see which one they prefer!

There are also much more efficient ways to use the stack, as you said - but if it's not Dubai that's preventing their implementation - we would LOVE to have the bottom few levels and pull traffic off more expeditiously but the GCAA won't allow it.:D

Payscale

If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!

Short answer....because although we have 2 runways, only one of you can use the landing one at a time! If some commom sense was applied to scheduling, there WOULDN'T BE 20 of you arriving at the same time!

Same thing with the airshow closures - over 45 flights planned to arrive in the 20 minutes after the airport reopens means that someone IS going to hold, probably for a significant period. Watch this space......flow control is coming - sooner, rather than later. Be interesting to see how that goes down with some!

Ultimately, we need to have dual independent ops for the two runways to be able to reduce the landing gaps.......again, hopefully sooner, rather than later.:ok:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Payscale,

Forgot to add, re: Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes. Therein lies the root of at least part of the problem.

If you know that you're going to arrive at the busiest time of the day and there's a fair chance of holding, why are you on fumes? :eek: Not really rocket science, is it?

[pool]

Not really rocket science, is it?

If we're lucky enough to get a month full of rush hour flights, and apply your rocket science, we're assured to get a mail from the cro-magnons populating the ugly palace, asking us to justify shoplifting the sheikeys wallet and management's bonus with too much additional fuel.

As long as every frontline warrior accomodates the utterly stupid limitations set up by ignorant office-chair-farters, as long as we have to put in our sweat and additional non paid hours for airshows that can be held at Al Ain (oh god, no, that's on ennemies territory, I forgot), just as long NOTHING will happen.
We need to have multiple deviations, and I mean MULTIPLE. Only if it starts hurting, not only Dubai, but Abu Dhabi at least as much, if not more, only then some dish-dashs will be rattled and aired.
It's up to them, not us. Stop accusing each other and stop accomodating the real culprits.

[Tin-Bullet]

@Aeroflop

There are ways in which traffic could be handled more expedisiously, like introducing arrival slots, helping the ACC utilise the stack more effectively, by using BOTH runways more effectively and reducing the in trail spacing on final approach appropriatly.

For your info, & if needed, to update yourself, although we have Parallel Runways in Dubai, they ARE DEPENDANT! The ‘L’ (left) runway is ALWAYS the ARRIVALS runway, & the ‘R’ (right) is the DEPARTURES runway, in dual ops, in BOTH directions 30/12. Although we have staggered configuration, the DEPARTURES Controller cannot depart traffic if the arriving traffic on the ARRIVALS runway has crossed 2nm from touchdown.

You could argue that if we do not have any departures, we could then probably use BOTH runways for ARRIVALS. Up to now we can ONLY land traffic on ‘L’ (left) runway, in dual ops, so if this ever happens in the future, then we could have a different scenario.

There are many many busier airports in the world than Dubai that can handle far greater amounts of traffic from which we can learn.

Thanks to GCAA we have our hands tied, so unless common sense prevails from their side & less politics are involved, then perhaps, operations could improve one day…………..

@Guy D’ageradar

Believe me. it's just as frustrating from our end - we all know that there are ways to make things move more efficiently but we also know that nothing is going to change in the short term.

There are also much more efficient ways to use the stack, as you said - but if it's not Dubai that's preventing their implementation - we would LOVE to have the bottom few levels and pull traffic off more expeditiously but the GCAA won't allow it.

Could not have been said any better, cheers mate:ok:

@Payscale

If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!

>>from>>Guy D’ageradar

Short answer....because although we have 2 runways, only one of you can use the landing one at a time! If some commom sense was applied to scheduling, there WOULDN'T BE 20 of you arriving at the same time!

Again, it’s ‘SAME SH!T – DIFFERENT DAY’………. & this is directed to our base operator, for BOTH DEPARTURES & ARRIVALS……..

If you claim to be one of the best long haul carriers, then why not have a look at your operations, perhaps splitting the departure gates & departure & arrival times altogether!

So, until everyone has the whole 'scenario & facts & procedures', then it would be understood in a much more easier way!:D

[helen-damnation]

If we're lucky enough to get a month full of rush hour flights, and apply your rocket science, we're assured to get a mail from the cro-magnons populating the ugly palace, asking us to justify shoplifting the sheikeys wallet and management's bonus with too much additional fuel.


I've never been asked to justify any extra fuel I've taken. I don't do it every time, but if I'm arriving back around midnight or 6am, it's in the tanks.

If you need something to cover your back, UAE GCAA AIC 04/2006 (04 October 2006) will do it:

"No delay expected" means...

'Do not anticipate being required to remain in the holding pattern longer than 20 mins before commencing an approach'

H-D

[Payscale]

Great posts all!

That AIC doesnt cover you. The wording I believe is SHOULD not MUST have 20 min arriving in DXB. Tried and tested by yours truly.

Bottom line is we have to help each other and have those diversion airport plates ready! :hmm:

[Guy D'ageradar]

Payscale,

Bottom line is we have to help each other and have those diversion airport plates ready!

Agreed - just trying to give a little perspective.:ok:

Pool

I don't think there's a sungle pruner here who would disagree with you. Unfotunately though, as long diversions don't happen on a regular basis and/or there's not a smoking pile of aluminium on the doorstep, the bean counters and men in white will continue to bask in their blissful ignorance. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[helen-damnation]

'Do not anticipate being required to remain in the holding pattern longer than 20 mins before commencing an approach'
The wording I believe is SHOULD not MUST have 20 min arriving in DXB

It's open to interpretation. The way I read it, no delay means you NEED to be able to hold for 19 mins before starting your approach.

Since contingency fuel is for "unforseen" events, it clearly doesn't apply to this which is in writing.

H-D

[Payscale]

Well, you can try and contact your fleet office and ask them how they interpret that AIC . You will be surprised!

[Yellow Snow]

Hi all,

As one of the DXB ATCO's who was on the airshow team, I feel I need to add my 2 pence worth to this thread.

Recceguy, I have never heard any of the airshow team or any of my other DXB ATC colleagues make any negative comments about the airshow, everyone enjoys working it, and everyone enjoys watching it.
I've met some arrogant pilots in my time, but you come across as very special, I suggest you crawl back under your rock.

In regards to why is the Dubai operation a bit of a nightmare from crews point of view at busy times, then all the answers that come before me sum it all up perfectly. We need the regulator to listen to us and take their iron grip off the operation, those of us that have come here from busy european airfields are horrified at how backwards some of the procedures and airfield restrictions are.

Gulf News, thanks for your kind comments about the EK departure window, those of that worked it thoroughly enjoyed it. We only hope that now senior EK management have seen what we can do when the shackles are removed, they'll use their considerable wasta (influence) and help us to get the procedures approved for normal everyday ops.

As for Payscale's comments, do you really think that ATC delay flights for fun? We all do the best we can do with the tools we're provided with against the backdrop of restrictions tieing us up. Comments like yours really make me question as to why we bother pushing the rules and bending over backwards when there are flight crew out there that are ignorant and ungrateful.

We're looking at ways of running an ATC roadshow at EK headquarters so you can ask questions about the operation and we can tell you about changes we're making to improve things, until then flight crew are always welcome to visit us.

[jumbo1]

Well, just my tuppence worth
I operated out of Dubai the other afternoon and it was absolute poetry in motion. The ATC's did a brilliant job and it was great to get a glimpse of what could be.
Well done guys. It was great
J

[Payscale]

Dude, you have been eating too much YELLOW SNOW! I actually thought I came across a open mined in asked for info on how things got so screw up the other night. And I got really good answers. Trust some fellow to read all sorts of stuff into it and call me an ignorant. Thanks buddy! as to ungrateful... well I am neither grateful or ungrateful. I don need to thank you for anything. You are doing your job according to the rules layed out in your regs and we have to follow ours. Sometimes that classes. So be it.... Have a great day :D

[Yellow Snow]

Payscale there's always the danger with PPrune or any forum that the message /argument will come across garbled.

If I have misunderstood you then I apologise. But I still feel your post
ATC Dubai... If you are THAT good, why did I have to hold 125 NM from Dubai last night, together with 20 other guys!!Waiting for my turn to hold at Desdi!! Dont know how many diverted. Unacceptable in my honest opinion. NO EAT issued. You are about no 15 I was told.Please understand that we sit up there flying on fumes sometimes. Cant you use both runways for simultaneous landings, until everyone is down. Maybe its not the simple. Please enlighten me!
is a touch incendiary.

The reason you had to hold 125 nm away is because we are so good, that we wouldn't allow ourselves to get overloaded and compromise your safety or the level of service that can be offered on a frequency, ie capacity to deal with emergencies. Your first port of call is to blame ATC for the delay not your own company or the airport themselves to allow unrealistic scheduling!

If your flying on fumes, that's your deal buddy, declare a pan or a mayday and get priority treatment. The fact that delays would exist all last week due to the airshow and airshow practice earlier on the week has been notamed/AIP'd to some extent for the last 6 months.

And finally, If I did do as you suggest and did my job according to rules laid out in 'my regs' you'd have far more missed approaches, sit at the holding point far longer waiting to roll and routings to gates that made my life easier not yours, but the fact that I do bend the rules and go the extra mile is because I get satisfaction and pride from going the 'extra mile' and trying to offer a good service. Whichever way you look at it your initial post quoted above is derogatory to ATC and spoiling for a fight, so I'll see you on the playground in 5 minutes:rolleyes:

By all means ask a serious question and offer constructive feedback, and admittedly your latter posts do, but your initial post winds me up buddy.

Have a great day:D I'll be at the golf if you fancy a pint.

[Canoehead]

Let me add some JP4 to all this.....

As a controller, I know we do our best to move the traffic in and out.

From a pilot's point of view. I might be pissed that the system has me holding for an hour at one in the morning, and, of course, I would blame the controllers!

In the particular case being discussed, I'm afraid the fault lies with the air traffic management provider, which, unfortunately, is us. The obvious solution, once demand exceeds airport capacity, is to initiate flow control, like everywhere else in the world. DXB arrival times are issued, meaning you absorb the delay at your departure airport. Quite simple really.

[Yellow Snow]

Canoehead

On paper what you suggest is perfect and works very well around Europe, but would take a $hit load of work and international co operation not to mention complete ignorance of any political issues. I'm not sure how you can blame the ATC management at Dubai for this lack of slot system??

[Payscale]

Yellow Snow...I'll buy the beers..:ok:

[MrMachfivepointfive]

On paper Dubai can handle 29 arrivals per hour.
The problem is not that the 'A' crew can even do 31.
The problem is that the 'Z' crew can handle 3.1 with 3 unnecessary runway changes per hour in VRB3KT CAVOK conditions. Its consistency.
(I assume, that you are 'A' crew)

[Aeroflop]

I agree with most of what was said above.

The problem is that the 'Z' crew can handle 3.1 with 3 unnecessary runway changes per hour in VRB3KT CAVOK conditions. Its consistency.

The above is half the problem. There is NO consistency. One night duty you are running 10nm both sides...maybe 15 on one. It looks busy in the TMA but the in-trail spacing on finals is 4-5nm. On the other night duty, we have 15 in each stack, running 20nm both sides and about 6 in the TMA. Thats why we're frustrated. Can't some of the A team go to the Z team for a while...just to show them. I can't simply believe that the regs are that tight. Here's an idea. Most traffic on a night duty comes from the DESDI hold. Why not just run 10nm all night from there and 15 from BUBIN. It worked a dream the other night with much the same traffic as any other night. And don't do a runway change in the middle of it when the wind is calm.....:ugh: Believe me, DESDI is a serious chokepoint. Something IS going to happen there some night. Its inevitable. :ouch:

[my hands are tied]

For what it is worth the vast majority of Rwy changes are initiated by pilots complaining about tailwinds on short finals. :rolleyes:

We either go for a Rwy change or increase spacing on finals due landing tfc missing the 1st high speed exits (or in the case of many operators here slow speed exits :cool:) and also increase the chance of go arounds.

If it is known that the winds will be changing later, a tactical change may be made head of time during a quieter period. There will never be a time when this can be acheived without somebody getting delayed though.