MD 600 for loadlifting

[Hughes500]

Anyone out there used one for longlining ? Seen Fuchs website in Switzerland that were using one to build a mast. Advice appreciated as need something with more lift than a 500, really up to about 900kgs - before everyone says i dont want a 350
Cheers

[slingyerhook]

Just curious.Why don't you want a Squirrel?.

Cheers.

SYH.

[HELISeo]

I believe that the noise is an argument.
Confined area flyers don't recognised that, but where peoples are living (like in my heavy urbanised Switzerland), is effectively noise a BIG concern.:=

Some times ahead I was adressing an enquire to MD because I was wondering that an helicopter having the same engine like the 407, may lift about the half of it.:ugh:

WHY??

The handling also is not good to perform external load, also we can say that this ship is finally only good for governmental / police duty, and that's it!:{

[HELISeo]

the ship wasn't used in my country but in Spain (however the ship is really form Fuchs!).:hmm:

I'm trying to be in touch with the manufacturer to look if they could be interessed in somebody flying the 900 for logging.

I'm crazy enough to try this:8!

[Hughes500]

Sling, prefer to lok out of the door and see the load, almost impossible from the right seat in a squirrel, the 500 is way quicker doing vertical ref than a squirrel plus running expenses of squirrels are rather high!
Heliseo I doubt that a 407 will lift 1800kgs on a hook ( twice that of a 600)

[HELISeo]

but I can't believe that the 600 may lift 900 kg off!!!!:hmm:

The AS 350 fit PERFECTLY the aerial work vertical reference!:ok:

I do it usually, however with both door removed (logically) and a line lenght of 40 m!

[DeltaNg]

Have any of you guys used the Explorer for external load lifting?

Any good? :rolleyes:

[victor papa]

If noise is the issue get a EC130 then. You also can not get closer to the window and the collective is on your left so you lean over it. There is also a Canadian STC for a bubble window on the pilot window if I remember correctly. Don't let the fenestron scare you-once you are used to it and understand it it is more than sufficient.

[Hughes500]

Heliso

I can lift 600kgs with a 500 let alone the extra power of a 600. Squirrel is twice the price to buy and twice as expensive to run Just been quoted 390k in Euros to overhaul a B2 engine:ouch:

[somepitch]

what about a 530f?

[Ian Corrigible]

Squirrel is twice the price to buy :eek:

Not Stateside it's not. In recent years the E's pricetag has risen to within spitting distance of a B2, with the F now only 10% cheaper than a B3.

I/C

[Nubian]

500,

What's the ratio of MD vs EC in Europe used for longline? Think it should be a pointer to what operators has as preferred machinery.(overall)
How about the trouble of getting spare's a while ago for the whole fleet? I know EC, don't have the Bell support either, but in general the 350 series usually only need a bit of Jet-A to be running for a long time:ok:(in my experience, at least)

[victor papa]

Nubian, can't agree more! With Jet A1, a bit of grease 8 for the hyd pump and droop ring and a split pin or 2 a 350 will run a ver.........................y long time-so will the 130! Quoting a engine price is valid, but I have been operating with a fleet of 350's, 130's and 120's and unless we stuff it up those parts on Turbomeca's side and especially EC have a long life and unbeatable reliability so I guess one can expect it to cost a bit of money. The scheduled maintenance if done in accordance with the manufacturer Maintenance Program is a breeze due to the margins allowed and a machine should never be grounded unless prefered for these? I stand by these machines despite the French telling you if you do have a problem "it's impossible".:D:D

[Fun Police]

i used work for an outfit that used to fly 500 D's and the 530 doing production external load work. never flew the 600, although we had one at the time and after i left, the 600 shed its tailboom killing the pilot. while i was there, we did have problems on both the 500 and 530 with m/r blades cracking and before my sentence began with the same company, they had a blade part company with the machine injuring the pilot pretty badly. he was lucky at that. one might think that the a/c were abused but that was not the case.
most of my work now (the same type of work, mind you) is done the the as350 and to a lesser extent the 407. if you ask me, the 350 is by far superior to the other types mentioned. it is powerful, comfortable, has a good heat/demisting system, just as quick as the others with a line on, and very robust.
i have no experience with a fenestron, but i can tell you that the 350 tail rotor authority is easily sufficient.
like VP, i too have a lot of faith in the 350 series.
fp

[fadecdegraded]

600 Kgs in a 500 on a longline???, just keep pulling and make it do 900 Kg, problem solved

[Hughes500]

fad

if only !

[dammyneckhurts]

To see better Longlining in an Astar.....just cut a hole in the floor and look straight down. Takes a bit to get the hang of...but better then trying to see out the door.....unless your really really tall!

[Hughes500]

Neckhurts

Cut a hole in the floor, man you want to be in Europe, I cant imagine the grief you would come to in EASA land doing that !!!!!!!!!!

[victor papa]

hughes 500, the hole in the floor and bottom panel is actually a EASA approoved optional service bulletin on the 350's. The floor and the panel gets a perspex panel instead and as long as your cleaners does not scratch them to death you see your load literally via the floor. We have quite a few with the sb

[dammyneckhurts]

I think there are 3 companies making legal instalation "hole in the floor" Vertial Reference Kits...well, legal in Canada anyway. There must be a few hundred Astars in Canada....and pretty much every single one of them has the hole in the floor.....

http://www.chinookaviation.com/window.htm
http://www.dartaero.com/ec350.shtml

[Hughes500]

VP

I stand corrected !

[levo]

Hi all what about a Lama they will lift about 1100kg.:ok:

[Nubian]

levo,

I don't think the issue is to find a helicopter for external load (quite a few candidates around), only that it seems the Gentleman want a cool-looking helicopter, that cost f...all(that would also disqualify the 500 itself), has no operational costs, can lift more, quicker than any of the other helicopters that has been used for this for decades....

When it comes to the Lama, it will lift less than the B3 and about what a B2 can do, but it's rather thirsty, slow, loud, mx-costs/labour intencive and it's not all that nice if you fly pax with it.

500,

Good luck

[Focha]

We have a B3 with the perplex hole in the floor too. And I hear about left hand B3. Actually I read an article on Vertical Mag talking about it (October/November 2009, page 46).

Regards.

[Hughes500]

Nubian

And what is wrong with trying to find a helicopter that

1. Costs f all to run
2. Is quicker
3. Can lift more

Actually in my experience the 500 has been way cheaper to run than 206/341/EC120 and yes I have had to write out the cheques personallly when they have gone wrong, have you ?

Quite frankly if you cant offer any advice why waste your time responding:=

[RVDT]

Things to remember about the 600.

Firstly it wasn't actually "designed" it just grew like Topsy out of a bunch of parts that were laying around in some desperate effort to keep up with the bunch.

Subsequently there are a few shortcomings. The common denominator for the starting point was the existing main rotor blade. Using this blade and 6 of them unfortunately does not give you ideal performance. To generate thrust the blade is not at it's most efficient A of A and hence there is a lot of drag in the rotor that amounts to nothing but wasted energy. Remember this blade is really not much different from the 300 for which it was originally designed, just longer.

At altitude things only get worse. Look at why a 500C will actually outperform a D/E above ~ 10,000'.

It auto's like a greased brick as the disc being so small it is masked by the fuselage. You need about ~80 knots to get some flow into the disc.

Then there is the little Notar quirk on touchdown in a full on auto. You get anti-torque when you don't need it! Unless you lead with right pedal you probably wont recover from the yaw to the left!

The fuel system is a little strange and attention must be paid to its care and maintenance. It can be put together backwards or incorrectly as I found when having "low fuel" lights with an indication and timing said the fuel was definitely in the tank. Investigation revealed the tank put together incorrectly at manufacture. One of the motive fuel hoses was pushing the baffle down in the tank, yes it would have stopped. Think about the consequences of one of the check valves in the tank not closing properly! I always had reservations about nose down attitude with a sling load.

Another odd one is when you line up with a longline you need to aim a little to the left as the helicopter kind of "migrates" to the right as you come to a hover.

Hover with a tailwind - no brainer. Easy. Careful with the Left pedal though as you have a fenestron that is buried in the tail somewhere making it even less efficient. A believe MD actually pay a royalty to EC for the design. Then they went and chopped all the blades off!

Some of the spinoffs have been introduced to the smaller aircraft in the MD range to their benefit. The 600 MGB is installed/can be retrofitted into the 530, 520, and D/E. It is a good strong gearbox. Pity they didn't put the C47 in the 530. That would be a rocket if it would hang together and it might avoid the surge stall issues that the C30 can sometimes get.

They put the FADEC Manual/Auto switch where the N2 trim is on the smaller models. Casually flicking this switch as some long time operators of the breed would probably do subconsciously and whoops. $$$$$$

Having had the misfortune of putting the second one ever in service and flying it as well as maintaining it, I do have a little insight. Just glad it was not my decision! I could go on here for hours...................

The reason for the introduction of the 600 is a bit like a dog licking it's boll@cks. It's because they can/could. Is it still in production?

The 600 is the answer to a question that nobody asked! Bit like an Edsel.

[Nubian]

500,

My first post gave you a direct advice!

RVDT's post will help you (if that's what you want)

If that doesn't help, try Santa....not long left to put in your wishes:ok:

[Hughes500]

Nubian

Your advice in your first post just said what everyone does in Europe, I was asking had anyone used a 600 for lifting. Yes I know all about 350's, a 500 with 500kgs on a longline will whap the tits off a 350 when it comes to cycle times. I was curious as to whether a 600 would be in the same mold as the 500 or a complete pig.
If you have experience on a 600 then will be very pleased to accept your advice.

[fadecdegraded]

(A 500 with 500kgs on a longline will whip the tits of a 350), i dont think so buddy, a 350 will run rings a round a 500 longlineing:confused:

[Vertical Freedom]

Man the AS350B3+ will pull the pants off a 500 every time; lifting twice the load each lift around the same speed so much much more efficient to operate. We can pick up 1,200kg at 5,000' at 30oC. She is totally reliable, always reaches its TBO. But the 500 or 530 hmmm NOT so. 500 sexy YES but not PAX freindly :confused:. 350 work horse YEP & PAX friendly YEP :ok:

[DeltaNg]

Has anyone got any experience of the 902 loadlifting?

[Vertical Freedom]

The 902 has a NOTAR so hot & high??? forget it!!! go with the best lift with a AS350B3+

[DeltaNg]

So it should be okay at Sea Level then.

[remote hook]

i used work for an outfit that used to fly 500 D's and the 530 doing production external load work. never flew the 600, although we had one at the time and after i left, the 600 shed its tailboom killing the pilot. while i was there, we did have problems on both the 500 and 530 with m/r blades cracking and before my sentence began with the same company, they had a blade part company with the machine injuring the pilot pretty badly. he was lucky at that. one might think that the a/c were abused but that was not the case.

The 600 is a nightmare, that's why there are so few in Canada. The accident in BC last year was a combination of pilot error and 600 error. It's a typical chop and cut engineering job, and it flies like it.

The accident you are referring to with the blade departure is almost exclusively due to abuse of the machine and blades, the pilot it happened to will tell you as much... All five were cracked, and after many thousands of hours in the 500's I've only ever seen one, it was abuse no doubt. He was young and doing work with almost no supervision while trying to keep up to the experienced guys, classic scenario.

RH

[remote hook]

And this one:

(A 500 with 500kgs on a longline will whip the tits of a 350), i dont think so buddy, a 350 will run rings a round a 500 longlineing


Where on Earth do you people get this stuff?

I split my time between these two types for the most part, and almost all of it is long line work. THERE IS NOTHING BETTER THAN A 500, of this I can assure you. That said, comparing an AS350 from BA on up to B3 with a 500 is apples and oranges and nearly a waste of time. For the pilot and in terms off shear speed, particularly on production jobs with 150-200ft of line, the 500 is a FAR superior machine... The only issue is she just doesn't lift enough anymore as the industry has evolved and the loads with it.

RH

[Vertical Freedom]

Yep at sea level the AS350B3+ will pluck her legal max 1,400kg with ease till around ~38oC :ok:

[DeltaNg]

I'm looking at lifting with a 902 Explorer , any tips?

[Fun Police]

RH,
there have been a number of incidents in canada involving 500's with blades cracking. some have caused the aircraft to crash with at least one fatality.
i have personally had cracked blades found on the machine that i had been flying almost exclusively for several month previously and i can assure you that it had not been over-torqued. not at least by me. this was doing seismic in the prairies which involves many torque events in a short period of time. the fatality that i refer to above happened to an outfit that did/does shake-block flying on the coast and it did admittedly happen to a machine with PMA blades. this is why MD came out with that silly inspection to be performed after 200 torque events or 25 hrs. 200 torque events isn't many when doing production work.
the 350 series can indeed keep up with a 500 in pretty much every way when it comes to production work. in an astar an experienced driver can fly a longline just as effectively as a 500 driver it just takes more experience/practice/skill. call it what you will. where the 350 shines is that it can carry enough fuel to actually get some work done before having to go for more, it is as robust as any other design that i can think of if not more, engineers love it because it is easy to work on and will designed, it is comfortable for both the pax and pilot, the heat and demist work at all temperatures without having to have tubes run all over the cockpit. i could go on but i just did a day of longlining in my astar at 7500 feet carrying loads that are probably at least twice what a 500 would carry under these conditions and doing it just as quickly but much more efficeintly.
admittedly the 600 i do not know much about, except one of my former colleagues is now dead because one fell apart on him. for years before his accident he had referred to the 600 that was in our fleet at the time as "Christine", like the car that steven king wrote about.
the 900/902 are apparently decent aircraft and i'd like to try one out one day, but you wont catch me in any of the other hughes/boeing/MD pieces of garbage.
bye for now
FP

[fadecdegraded]

Well said FP, could,nt agree more

[Fun Police]

thanks!:}...

[Vertical Freedom]

here, here, I'll drink to that; the 500 is sexy looking sweet LITTLE old lady but a complicated dinosaur to maintain. That is why the 350 is now by far the more preferred option for both work horse & PAX hauling. :cool:

[dammyneckhurts]

Of course a B1,B2,B3 will "outperform" a 500 for the most part on the same job cause it will lift more and had more seats, can cary more fuel etc...

but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.

Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....

Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"

[Fun Police]

i used to fly 8's in a 500/530 and i found it to be just as uncomfortable. even worse when you get three across the front which is an absolutely rediculous arrangement.

[GeorgeMandes]

MD 600 related, today someone sent me a video of a Customs and Border Patrol 600 making a very hard landing on a practice 180 auto in CA. There is an NTSB on this from October, as the ship was damaged. If that video isn't around, I will see how I can link it.

[remote hook]

Of course a B1,B2,B3 will "outperform" a 500 for the most part on the same job cause it will lift more and had more seats, can cary more fuel etc...

but I think Remote hooks point is that given a proportionate job, say lifting 75% of the normal weight the machine is capable of the 500 is faster just cause you can see better and its more manoeuvrable.

Sure an experienced bag/drill mover can be quick in an Astar, but the same guy will be quicker in the 500 assumig the weight your lifting is proportionate.....

Besides....8 hours a day on the line in an Astar always has me saying "dammyneckhurts"

Precisely, at least one person can read.

From a production/precision long line pilot, there is just no way you can go as fast with an Astar as you can with a 500 if terms of moving the hook around. Maneuverability and vision are unparalleled - this is one of the reasons you don't see us using Astars for shake blocking.... and it doesn't come any more intense that flying blocks for those of you who've never had the pleasure.

Is an Astar an all-round better ship? Of course it is, but we're talking about flying the line here.

RH

[Fun Police]

RH,
bull$hit! i have not been on a job in years that a 500 would be able to compete with an astar in terms of efficiency. your argument is meaningless if you consider the large jobs that the clients i work for now (100 square miles or more sometimes at altitude too). how is it possible when an astar can carry heavier loads (read: more stuff)? an experienced astar driver can fly a longline pretty much just as well in an astar especially of you remove the doors, but then how would i know? i have only 2300 hrs of 500/530 time and 3000 hr+ of astar time doing the same types of work. most of that time is with a line.
maybe the shake blockers like the 500 because you can land it pretty much anywhere, but there has to be a reason why fewer and fewer operators are using the 500/530 and nobody uses the 600.
btw, i can read perfectly well and so can everyone else here so you stop lording that over us :rolleyes:
FP

[remote hook]

Are you mentally impaired? Or just phonetically challenged?

I AM SAYING THAT WRANGLING A HOOK WITH A 500 IS WAY FASTER/EASIER THAN IT IS WITH AN ASTAR. Full stop.

I am not talking about load weights, efficiency over time, cost per hour, number of pax, pounds moved per liter burned, dollars per square inch of rotor blade, or anything else for that matter. READ THE BLOODY POSTS YOU HALFWIT.

I'm startled some of you graduated high school. See you in another year, what a forum.

RH

[Fun Police]

well i see that argueing something so subjective with you is pointless even though i whole heartedly disagree.
anyway, as the original post was about the 600, we should all calm down.
perhaps you might be more at home at verticalmag.com/forums or even justhelicopters.com where outbursts and name calling from people such as yourself is more welcome.
i'm sure you will be welcome back when you learn to stop shouting.
bye now,
FP

[DeltaNg]

I see the 600 is a NOTAR based machine.

How does the 902 compare to the 600. Do a lot of people use the 902 for loadlifting?

I've seen a picture with a left hand mounted mirror, and the pilot sitting in the left hand seat. Is that standard practice?

How does the NOTAR perform loadlifting when you are MAUW etc?

I'd appreciate any views from people who have used a 600 / 902 ...

Cheers
Delta

[Nubian]

rh,

Whatever makes you happy. (of course your 500 is the best machine to whip the empty hook around in, but what's the point with that?? It's the load that counts!!) The original discussion was what to use for lifting when the 500 couldn't do the job, and the gentleman was asking for the 600's suitability.

Delta,

You can check this list: AeroBoek Index (http://www.aeroboek.nl/ab-002.htm) which list all MD's made(and some other types). Browse through it and see how many of the respective machines you ask about is used for lifting.

FP,

Couldn't agree more

[DeltaNg]

Nubian: Thanks for that. I checked the AeroBoek.

I found two 902 used in a similar role. One is a SAR fit, with winch and the other used for Harbour Pilot operations (since crashed and written off).

I can't find any used for "UTI" or utility work, and none for Offshore roles recorded here.

Hmmm. Why is that?

[Hughes500]

Hey guys calm down here, Nubian is quite right ! Can we get back to the point of what I was asking ! FP I know the 500 is not as good as a squirrel in most departments. Looking at the spec of a 600 it would appear to be a reasonable lifter. As I currently operate 500's I was wondering if the 600 would be any good. Yes I know a lot of people dont like the machine but i actually wanted to know if anyone out there had actually used one rather than rumour control ( no pun intended). Lots of folk dont like a 500, I rather do as it suits my operation and I dont find them expensive to run. Never had a problem with a head as everyone seems to say. Last overhauled one has done just over 500 hours and we havent changed any bearings yet, probably got a couple of pitch links nearing their wear limit but she is still tracked great up to 135kts so cant be that bad yet.
For those who have proffered advice thanks, Nubian as well I know where you are coming from.

[Hover Bovver]

Well I have never done any longlining in a 600 - but I do have about 700hrs normal time in one, and in my opinion , if you require to fly slow and out of trim (which I guess is a lot ?) it would be rubbish - It hates being flown out of trim , has a nasty habit of tucking its nose if flown out of trim at about 20 knots , and you would be working your feet on the pedals like a tapdancer on speed ! (Anywere between 10 -40 kts is were you go from Notar for antitorque to the rear vertical fins , both of which work as rudders unless YSAS has been fitted, when one is controlled by the ysas actuator and one by the pedals)

Dont get me wrong I love the 600, if you want to get up and get going at 140 kts , it is really smooth , beats a squirrel in terms of real life cruise speed , and the ride is silky smooth (especially compared with the squirrel) - as long as it has been tracked properly ! It will not carry as many people in as much comfort , and has no luggage space - squirrel wins that one . But the less time you spend between 0-40 kts the better - quite why the police and border patrol bought the 600 for that role it would be awful !! Must have been a good salesman ! It has a few tricks to catch you out, but once you know them it is no problem - but I wouldnt rate it for longlining even if I have never done it:) That type of flying does not suit it.

HB
I

[DeltaNg]

Is the 902 any better between 0-40 knots or does it have the same characteristics as the 600? I often undersling unstables loads between points less than a mile apart, so the whole time I am 0-40 knots. Quite often knarly and turbulent too. Any thoughts??

[Fun Police]

Delta Ng, if i may politely inquire as to why you are so interested in just one manufacturer filling the need? for the money that you would spend on a 900/902, i would imagine that you could pick up a 407 or a b3. these would certainly be cheaper to operate and i'd expect that they would lift more.

i could be wrong about the weight thing but here in canada VIH had/has an EC135 which will lift about the same as a 350BA. it would be hard to get a client to pony up the $4000+ per hour for a machine that can only do so much. i believe the 135 is for sale.

Hughes500/Delta Ng, if you like that way the 500 flies then a 407 might be more up your alley.

just curious (and glad this thread has returned to normal!),
FP

[Ag-Rotor]

If you are comfortable and experienced in flying 500's I can appreciate why you would want to stick with them, they are second to none for their utility applications.Maintenance is not the issue that they seem to be labled with either. My choice would be to go for a 530 FF,there was a very informative artical in vertical magazine a short time ago,looked ideal for a hook machine. With regard to Kg's on the hook, they rate them in the class of the 407. I have flown a 407 on water bombing ops, with a 50 ft line & bucket, great machine, but I would walk past it for a 530.

[DeltaNg]

I don't have a choice - it's already been chosen over a 135 by powers above :uhoh:

It's a ship based lifting contract with a lot of unstable deck work, therefore I was wondering how she'll cope ...

[HELISeo]

Hello everybody,
Me too I'm interested in the MD ships for external load.:confused:

I'm flying actually Lama, B3 and Koala, and in my country (Switzerland) if you want to enter the market, you should be able to lift off with at least 1'000 kg at the hook.:eek:

MD has the NOTAR which is very quite so that is definitely THE difference.:D

I believe that you may ask to many pilots how and why the y prefer a determinate model; the answers would be as many as the number of pilots.:ugh:

Finally if you aren't so lucky to own your ship, you are committed to perform your best regardless from the type flown.:ok:

Actually for me the most exciting and amazing one is the Koala, but I was asking to Fuchs if there is a chance to have the 900 for a cheaper price in order to perform some logging tests!:}

[DeltaNg]

I'd love to see how it copes ... from what I've heard so far it would be a total dog flying it with external loads. Hence nobody uses it as such.

[HELISeo]

Dear Delta NG (B2 pilot isn't?)

I don't have such experience like the most participant on this forum:O, but I'm proud of my about 3'000 hrs flown in a country where high density altitude conditions are usual;).

Of course I cannot fly mirror, but only vertical ref:}

I still have more experience on B2 and B3 door removed and 120 /180 ft longline, against the poor 40 hrs on the Koala.:(

But if the company where I'm flying for had more money, I would push it to sell our Lama and make a BIG investment in a AW 119 Koala Enhanced!!!:ok:

They are a lot of reason because nobody tried to fly a Koala in aerial work:

Who have such lot of money to invest where the minute price is marketed by B3 owner?
Who have enough experience to say that this ship will survive some season doing logging ("my" Lama has actually more than 21'000 hrs with the original aiframe:eek:)
Who would renounce to the minimum safety requirement of an helmet because simply it doesn't fit in the ship?

Everybody would like to drive an Italian Ferrari in Miami to pick up long legged girls, but who would use this car to deliver food and equipments in the more remote Yukon area?:)

I was able to fly my very first logging mission after some 20' intro:=

If you will have the chance to fly it, do it.

It's worth

[prvflyg]

Hello
The MD600 is not a big lifter, calculate with 700 to a maximum of 750kg on the line in a good day. The 600 is nothing but a 500 with better passanger capability if looking at capacity only.
But As a utility helicopter we love it, the big aft passanger compartment for bulky loads 185 X 125cm is just unbeatable, a few minutes and you can have 4-5 passengers sitting there with lots of room for bagage in the aft.
In the hot summer its better then the C20B for firefighting due to high engine performance, but dont use bigger buckets then 545 lit, then you can have fuel for about 1.5 hrs.
Ground staff and neighbors love the 600 due to the low noise.
The NOTAR is different then the conventional T/R but for a everyday pilot there is no problems with it, you will find advantages of it.
We use the 600 for all our 500 missions and it works just fine, the only issue is the fuelconsumtion, it drinks almost like a 350. 150-185 liters/hr depending on the power. so you need to carry lots of extrafuel in the back.
Thanks!:ok: