MK3 Merlin accident

[oldgrubber]

First time post.(long time lurker)

For your interest guys and gals

RAF officials to investigate helicopter landing in Holtville airstrip, official says - Imperial Valley Press Online - Local News (http://www.ivpressonline.com/articles/2009/11/10/local_news/news01.txt)

All survived, thank goodness!

[zic]

Looks less like a landing and more like a crash - least they all walked away. I guess the CHF now get 27 instead of 28 Merlins in the great JHC carve-up.

[Jackonicko]

Nah, that'll buff out.....

http://www.ivpressonline.com/content/articles/2009/11/10/local_news/news01-main.jpg

[TheWizard]

Already been posted here
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/395346-brown-looks-1bn-helicopter-order.html

[Cows getting bigger]

Thieving locals have already done away with the blades. :)

[[email protected]]

They wanted them for spares for the Presidential 101:)

[Melchett01]

If that had happened at Woodvale the wheels would have gone by now as well and the radios would be on sale in a local pub :}

[6Z3]

If that had happened at Woodvale

Mmm, those sand dunes do look familiar

[Green Bottle 2]

No those blades haven't been stolen there the BERP V blades - so quiet they're invisible!

[notmuchon]

close but no cigar BERP IV .

real shame to see 1 go in

[[email protected]]

It only rolled over on landing yet 3 crew were injured - how does that male it crashworthy - unless you were being ironic and I missed it?

[dangermouse]

as has been so simply stated, forget the newpaper report it's full of inaccuracies

We all know it is SOP for the RAF to have rear crewmen unseated on landings (but restrained) so a few injuries on an aircraft that ended up on its side can't come a surprise can it?

still it all looks like to be in 1 bit, no doubt we will see it in the air again

DM

[vecvechookattack]

One day the crabs will learn that their Crewmen need to be sat down in a seat and strapped in before landings..... If there was ever a real airworthiness issue its the way the crabs insist that their Crewmen hang out of the door whilst the aircraft is landing.


Some body is going to retaliate and insist that its important that someone is making sure that the tail is clear of obstructions..... (In the Californian desert)

[[email protected]]

No he will be advising the pilot of where the dust cloud is and be ready to give height information should the pilot lose references - tricky to do from being strapped inside the cabin.

If voice marshalling is not required they will be strapped in.

[TheWizard]

One day the crabs will learn that their Crewmen need to be sat down in a seat and strapped in before landings..... If there was ever a real airworthiness issue its the way the crabs insist that their Crewmen hang out of the door whilst the aircraft is landing.


Some body is going to retaliate and insist that its important that someone is making sure that the tail is clear of obstructions..... (In the Californian desert)

Been to the Californian desert recently have we mate? No? Of course it is completely flat with no berms or obstructions isn't it? Er, no see pic above.

As you quite correctly state, it is important that someone helps prevent an aircraft without any type of stinger from having a tail strike.
You don't need one you say??

Mmm
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a355/merlinmagic28/Iraq016.jpg

You get back to what you do best. Talking bollocks.

P.S Good effort. Two bites on two threads. I must try harder to resist.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

No he will be advising the pilot of where the dust cloud is and be ready to give height information should the pilot lose references - tricky to do from being strapped inside the cabin.

If voice marshalling is not required they will be strapped in.

Absolutely spot on and anyone with any experience with rotary flying would know and understand that, which is obviously why dear old Vec, bless him struggles :p

[Fat Chris]

Ahhhhhhh........

Old vecvechookbollocks talking pish again.

Not much changes.......bite away.

[Cows getting bigger]

Really rather clever how that non-Crab, tail-rotorless, Sea King is balancing a Chinook on its head. :)

[oldgrubber]

At least a correctly harnessed aircrew wouldn't have ended up like that chap on the Utube video of the Puma crash on landing. Ouch! What do reckon on the MK3, too much flare leading to a tail blade strike?? (just like that Puma). I would imagine it would be easy to do at night in the dust etc.

[heights good]

Chaps if you don't know the details of what happened then you obviously can't be current or dare I say experienced enough (5000hrs of RAFG doesn't count) with the current SOPs and training requirements for OOA operations.

In a modern military (which is has an almost pathaolgical fear of the "where there is blame, there is a claim" culture) there is normally a very good reason for doing things a certain way. If you were experienced or current then I'm sure you would realise this, many things have changed in a big way in the last 2 or 3 years.

Dust landings require a crewman to be scanning the tail, dust cloud and for obstructions forward and below the aircraft. The dust landing SOP doesn't (and shouldn't) change for flat, sloping or rough ground. It is one size fits all, this helps to prevent cognitive failure when the chips are down. You need something that will be remembered when, your on a hillside in Afghan, taking rounds, dropping of an IRT, with very little power in hand, in a hot and high environment and the dust is like talcum powder.

The whole SOP is geared around a very logical work cycle that involves all the crew saying pre-determined phrases and in a pre-determined order. This has been proven again and again and again while operating in a dust environment. One of these calls is from the crewman to confirm that the aircraft is clear forward and down to land and the position of the dust cloud. Which I am sure you will agree is fairly important.

Even with a crewman doing this it can still be difficult, I have came close to an aircraft rolling over after a pot hole was missed, the wheel found it shortly beforehand and stopped VERY quickly. Conversly I have overshot from at 20+ dust approaches because of berms, pot holes, fences, polythene tunnels, domestic wires and numerous other obstructions. I'm not sure how many of those overshoots would have been an accident but I would bet a years wages i would have had at least 5 or 6 accidents.

The Merlin was conducting dust training for Ops so it has to actually prepare crews for the worst case scenario, sitting in a seat just isn't an option. As I said, If you don't know the details of the accident then you are not qualified or indeed have the authority to comment.

Train hard fight easy.

HG

[Tourist]

Heights Good

Where the hell do you get off thinking that just because you have a clue what you are talking about that people on this forum should have to listen to your side of things!?

Where would all the threads about airworthiness/A400/JSF etc be if people with facts and knowledge thought that they had a right to an opinion.

Honestly, youth of today..........

[nice castle]

I wonder how Chinook crewmen would strap into/onto an oils box - for that is their seat when operating up front. Hmmm, better off on a monkey harness I'd wager.

At risk of complete thread hijack here (sorry), isn't it ridiculous that this oil box situation still prevails...?

[Gainesy]

Slippy customer, yer Loady.:)

[chinook240]

The real scandal about the 'oils box' is that the crewman steals the cushion from the jump seat - meaning the QHI is even more uncomfortable!

How's that for thread drift?

[Could be the last?]

Shame the harness is still not crashworthy and still requires manual adjustment............!:eek:

[mystic_meg]

BBC NEWS | UK | British troops get delayed Merlin (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8361336.stm)

Didn't think ours were fitted for AAR...

[dangermouse]

just got to buy some tankers now!!

DM:ok:

[mystic_meg]

always have been...
Excuse my ignorance, but where is the probe?

[TheWizard]

In the Role Bay! It is not fitted as standard.
Unlike the BBC to randomly grab an image off the internet!:rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

Maybe they meant the RN version which is capable of in flight refuelling

[oldgrubber]

Yes, how the "A" frame gooseneck in the cab made us laugh when we first saw it, now it's how strong your crewy is, and how much they trust his/her harness. (back to that harness again). Not much call for the Naval version of HIFR in the desert (malfunctions apart), and not much call for the probe version at sea (most naval vessels can HIFR a cab if need be). Jolly Jack doesn't use the probe. (ooer!)

[hoodie]

Excuse my ignorance, but where is the probe?


Here it is:

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_EH101_Merlin_HC3_lg.jpg

All the Mk3 aircraft were delivered with probes, but they're (generally?) no longer fitted (as you've noticed :ok:)

The Mk3As don't have 'em - presumably because the Danes didn't ask for the capability.

[mystic_meg]

That's going to have to be pretty quick to keep up with a VC10!

[dangermouse]

ALL Mk3 aircraft have probe provisions (plumbing etc already in), the RAF just havent procured enough for each aircraft. It is role fit.

All the DMRH are also plumbed for AAR hence the Mk3As also have the provision. RDAF have also not procured probes for all their aircraft

Of course as neither the RAF or RDAF have a suitable helo AAR tanker in their fleets the probes arent much use.

AWH finished the proof of concept trial with a Mk3 last year so it all works, just need an RTS now ( I am sure the RAF will jump at the chance to AAR if they ever get it)

DM

[Gainesy]

Well, there's another role for the Js, I think Sargent-Fletcher did/do a RoRo AAR pack specifically for the Herc, course QQ would take forever to ensure it didn't interfere with the Microwave or bog.

[ShyTorque]

That's going to have to be pretty quick to keep up with a VC10!

AAR can be done if the need is there, done it myself, at night, on NVG in a different type. There are other, slower, tankers in the world, but just not necessarily with RAF markings.

[TheWizard]

A bit like this....

http://www.agustawestland.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/aw_resize_media_gallery//images/AW101_57.jpg

[SuperDouper]

AWH finished the proof of concept trial with a Mk3 last year so it all works, just need an RTS now ( I am sure the RAF will jump at the chance to AAR if they ever get it)


Wasnt a Mk3, it was CIV01 - AW Trials aircraft fitted with BERP IV, trial carried out over chesil beach/ charmouth areas last year behind an italian air force tanker

[helimarshaller]

Wasnt a Mk3, it was CIV01

I think you may find that it was RAF01 ZJ117 that was used.

[nunquamparatus]

Strange - didn't see the pictures of the Mk3 lying on its side, looking a bit second hand, on the Def Web page today. RAF PR machine must be slipping up.

Is that where the £40 million cost went...........surely it will polish out?

[mystic_meg]

A bit like this....
...must be tricky to make contact with the tanker reversing towards you ;)

[ShyTorque]

No, at least in the SOP I used, the C130 overtakes, literally flies over the top from behind. The interesting part is that the helicopter's refuelling probe doesn't extend beyond the rotor disc, so you have to get "up and over" it to avoid hitting it with the blades.

It's a bit disconcerting when the stars go out as the planform of the tanker aircraft flies over, only a short distance above you...

[sycamore]

S-T,I take it thats `the cousins` way of doing it; ever seen a hose run-out and not stop !

[mystic_meg]

...must be tricky to make contact with the tanker reversing towards you
Oh, the irony! I fully understand how it's done - I was making (an obviously too subtle) reference to the fact that the tanker was Italian - hence the ;)