Brown looks at £1bn helicopter order

[Lyneham Lad]

In the FT today Brown looks at £1bn helicopter order (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/87317c62-cd79-11de-8162-00144feabdc0.html)

The proposal is to cut low priority projects to free-up enough of the Defence budget to fund the purchase of twenty Chinooks over the next five to ten years.

See article for full details (cutting/pasting contravenes FT copyright).

[5 Forward 6 Back]

The proposal is to cut low priority projects to free-up enough of the Defence budget to fund the purchase of twenty Chinooks over the next five to ten years.

Sounds crazy, but stick with me; if we need more things, rather than cutting some things that we presumably decided at some point that we might need, why not just increase the defence budget....?

[barnstormer1968]

Sounds crazy, but stick with me; if we need more things, rather than cutting
some things that we presumably decided at some point that we might need,
why not just increase the defence budget....?

I am confused here. I have heard Gordon Brown and other cronies say for ages
that we have enough Chinooks, and don't NEED any more. So why is he
considering buying some:bored:.

I hate to think I may be being cynical here but is it remotely possible he:
Was lying in the past
Is trying to make up for poor spelling and tidiness in a recent letter
Has realised there is an election looming (so is offering jobs for workers in the
U.S.A.

That said. Make the order for thirty Chinooks, and then still replace the Seakings
And Pumas:ok:

[green granite]

Don't be silly 5F6B, that would mean that we couldn't afford to pay developing countries to reduce their carbon emissions so as they can take all the UK's manufacturing industry away :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Melchett01]

Best guess - this is linked to 28 / 72 re-equipping with CH-47Fs and the Merlins going to Cdo Heli Force.

I guess Benson and Ewelme will be getting a lot noisier than they currently are if this goes through! If it does go through, regardless of your opinion of the Merlin (I happen to think it is a decent bit of kit), this must surely give UK plc quite a significant SH capability when you look right the way across the potential new ORBAT.

[TyroPicard]

plans to fast-track a big order of Chinookover the next five to 10 years.That is fast...

[Gainesy]

Have they stopped faffing about at El Centro yet?

[gareth herts]

Faffing about??

Global Aviation Resource (http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2009/merlinvortex.php)

[HUMS]

Think the jobs would be in the UK (or Italy) ?

Boeing, AgustaWestland Sign Italy Chinook Deal - Farnborough News (http://www.defensenews.com/osd_story.php?sh=VSDF&i=3630068)


The deal includes a license for AgustaWestand to produce, market and sell the Chinook CH-47F as prime contractor to the United Kingdom, Greece, Turkey, Morocco, Libya and Egypt

[davestewart]

"over the next five to 10 years."

now add the standard MOD delays, price over-runs etc ...

that will be 5B£ in 10 - 20 years then, oh just in time!!!

[StopStart]

So then. All Merlin crews off on golden rivet hunting courses? Belvedere back on?

[ZH875]

Which eye is he using to look at new orders?

[KENNYR]

Scrap the aircraft carrier orders, scrap the nuclear deterrent replacement and there should be enough in the budget to finance essential equipment for our forces. The Puma refurbishment and Seakings should be scrapped and replaced with Merlin and Chinooks, as should the pathetic upgrading of the Lynx engines and the purchase of the Future Lynx.

Sounds a bit drastic I know but its the only way to properly equip our brave men and women in the armed forces who are in harms way every day.

[tucumseh]

Quote:
plans to fast-track a big order of Chinook
Quote:
over the next five to 10 years.
That is fast...


It certainly is, considering procurement of the last batch commenced in 1994 and they still aren't in service. I wonder if that batch will form part of the 20 in the report?

[TheWizard]

Best guess - this is linked to 28 / 72 re-equipping with CH-47Fs and the Merlins going to Cdo Heli Force.



Are 72 Sqn getting rid of their Tucanos already? :}
Once a rotary sqn, always a rotary sqn.

[Melchett01]

Cheers Wizard ..... point made - strike 72 and replace with 78. That's what you get for typing whilst being nagged at - it's almost like having a Nav in the house!

Then again, maybe 72 would like to get involved and contribute to the current bout of nastiness ? :E

[RODF3]

Best guess - this is linked to 28 / 72 re-equipping with CH-47Fs and the Merlins going to Cdo Heli Force.


One less Merlin to handover now! If rumours are true.

[VuctoredThrest]

It will be interesting to see waht cockpit configuration is chosen - Mk2/2a, Mk3R or Mk4.

[Ali Barber]

Didn't CDS just say he expected us to be out of Afghanistan in about 5 years? What are we going to do with all those helicopters and might we need some of the things that will get delayed to allow us to buy them. If we're delaying a REQUIREMENT, I agree that the defence budget should be increased to pay for these helis.

[101BOY]

Imperial Valley Press Quick News: Three injured during RAF helicopter landing (http://www.ivblogz.com/quicknews/2009/11/three-injured-during-raf-helicopter-crash.html)

Rumour looks true!

RAF officials to investigate helicopter landing in Holtville airstrip, official says - Imperial Valley Press Online - Local News (http://www.ivpressonline.com/articles/2009/11/10/local_news/news01.txt)

[ProfessionalStudent]

I can see the entry in the F700 now...

Merlin turns over, but fails to start... :E

Joking aside, glad to hear everyone got away with their lives.

Just goes to show how tricky this dust landing malarkey really is.

[grandfer]

What's wrong with buying a few Blackhawks from Westlands ? I thought years ago they had a licence to build them from Sikorsky , I seam to remember them acquiring one as a demonstrator for possible overseas sales & even converted it to fly with Rolls Royce engines .
Work for RR & Westlands .:ok:

[The B Word]

If a brand spanking CH47F is about £20M per copy then how do 20 of them add up to £1Bn? that's an awful lot of Through-Life-Support!!! (about £600M by my calculations!).

I've heard a rumour that the £1Bn is for a bigger spend on not just helicopters - I just can't get anyone in Town to confirm it (but something is going on).

I wonder if Mrs Janes' outburst to the PM on the lack of military spending, and the Govt's willingness to splash money on our beleaguered Banks, has anything to do with this announcement?

The B Word

[the funky munky]

Ah, I see the 2020 Vision paper results have been leaked!

[mr fish]

just pull a billion from the OLYMPICS,
lets face it, it going to cost so much, who will notice??






or care!!!

[airborne_artist]

Rumour control suggests that a grey Merlin had a hard landing on one of the cousins' war canoes recently, though it stayed upright.

Maybe enough good parts from the pair of them to make one good one? :}

[Seaking93]

AA, not a rumour at all, it happened and photographs have appeared on the net, a Canadian ship If I remember correctly, ship came into port and the Merlin was lifted off by crane and roaded out.

[vecvechookattack]

Tee hee



Scrap the aircraft carrier orders, scrap the nuclear deterrent replacement and there should be enough in the budget to finance essential equipment for our forces. The Puma refurbishment and Seakings should be scrapped and replaced with Merlin and Chinooks, as should the pathetic upgrading of the Lynx engines and the purchase of the Future Lynx.

Sounds a bit drastic I know but its the only way to properly equip our brave men and women in the armed forces who are in harms way every day.


Mate, you haven't done the Staff course have you..??????

[Grimweasel]

;)
Spot on me thinks - Looks like all the ducks are lining up ready to announce the demise of Puma and Merlin. So, Belvedere II - close Benson, sell it off and find a new JHC base as Odiham is too small to house another 20 cabs - the site would have to be leveled (like Northholt) and started from scratch.

Of course all this is just rumor ;)

[Melchett01]

So, Belvedere II - close Benson, sell it off and find a new JHC base as Odiham is too small to house another 20 cabs - the site would have to be leveled (like Northholt) and started from scratch

Why not Benson? There are already well over 20+ cabs there with 28 and 78 split across 2 hangars, and what are the chances of the full complement of ac (Merlin or CH-47) ever being there? If you relocate the AEF and clear out all the hangars of non-28/78 assets, and assuming that not all cabs will be there at any one time, how much more space than is currently available would be needed given that a Merlin and a CH-47 footprint isn't vastly dis-similar?

Been away from Benson for a while now, so things may have changed, and granted there would be need to be some infra changes, but surely it would be cheaper than upping sticks completely, especially having forked out to convert 78 Sqn's hangar and with the sim on the same site?

[pr00ne]

Melchett01,

I think you are rather forgetting the presence of 33 Sqn at Benson and the fact that 230 Sqn are about to move in from Aldergrove.

[Ian Corrigible]

AA, not a rumour at all, it happened and photographs have appeared on the net, a Canadian ship If I remember correctly, ship came into port and the Merlin was lifted off by crane and roaded out.
Sorry to continue the thread drift, but not having seen the photos of the Mk1 on HMCS Montreal: what condition was it in after the incident (the Merlin, not the frigate)?

I/C

[Finnpog]

http://digilander.libero.it/en_mezzi_militari/html/eh101/eh101-merlin-01.jpg

Perhaps these (as I know we have done to death) would be the better, more prudent buy for the CHF.

Not least because this method of folding a Chinook's blades The Boeing CH-47 Chinook helicopter - Folding the Rotor Blades. (http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/Folded_Blades/Folded_Blades.html) looks like a right PITA

[[email protected]]

Maybe that's why we fly them from place to place - quicker, easier, less to go wrong with complicated folding mechanisms, less weight.....:)

Not as much fun as cramming them all into a floating steel box where one missile can take them all out in one go....:ok:

[Finnpog]

You're right Crab:ok:

An Amphibious CHF:eek: it'll never catch on:ugh:

[Melchett01]

pr00ne -

Unchecked beat me to it. My cunning plan works on the basis that the CH-47 and the Merlin are roughly the same size, and therefore with a bit of thought and careful planning you should be able to get a smaller number of CH-47s into the same real estate currently occupied by almost 30 Merlins.

I can't remember off the top of my head the exact size of the Puma force, but whilst things are certainly cozy at Benson, they are certainly coping. And if push came to shove, I'm sure you could come up with some cunning plan that involved somewhere like Little Rissington (currently home to a VGS) or Kidlington to house the AEF / UAS.

Yes it might take a bit of intellectual horsepower to work it out - which would be a novelty rather than just saying 'yes Sir, splendid idea' or employing a firm of consultants on an exorbitant fee (then we could only get 18 new cabs!) to state the bleeding obvious. In our current, ahem, straightened times throwing money at some half arse plan like Belvedere which didn't work to start with really should be a non-starter now. Let's actually make us of the resources we have and if needed spend the consultancy fees on bringing them up to scratch so they are fit for their current and future purpose.

[deeceethree]

And if push came to shove, I'm sure you could come up with some cunning plan that involved somewhere like Little Rissington (currently home to a VGS) or Kidlington to house the AEF / UAS.So, you weren't aware that several years ago the nimbys local to Little Rissington beat off the RAFs moves to close the gliding school at Bicester and move it to Little Riss?

[Melchett01]

deeceethree -

Not sure what the argument was back then or when it was, but I'm fairly certain 637 VGS are currently operating motor gliders out of there, as well as Devonair conducting various aspects of ac engineering / servicing. Plus, I think it was designated a core site up to 2030 under the Defence Estate development plan, as part of which it was looked at as a relief landing ground for Brize and Benson.

Looks like the NIMBYs might have to get some ear plugs!

[cazatou]

Melchett 01

There is, of course, always Chalgrove.

[Melchett01]

Caz

Indeed there is - I was simply illustrating a point. But now you mention it, Chalgrove could be a better bet. Being well out of the UAS system, do they still chop studes? If so, how about a Martin Baker let down over the fenceline for those that don't quite make the grade!

[TheWizard]

Not forgetting how handy it would be to have Tutors continuously buzzing around the instrument approach pattern for Benson......oh hang on a minute....

Abingdon would be a better bet with a VGS there already.

[Megawart]

Assuming that all Merlins go Navy and a new buy of Chinook happens, who the hell is going to crew them all? Even SAR are ramping up to 28 crews from 24/25 (most of who will probably jump ship and leave when SAR-H happens from 2012). The vast majority of PA aircrew are now beyond their 5 year lock-in clause and can leave without penalty. Also, I gather that recruitment from civvy street has all but dried up at the moment.

Perhaps there is a new retention bonus in the offing...the last manning presentation I saw (6 months ago) confirmed that they were under serious consideration.

Can we start the bidding at 100K? Any takers?

I'll get my coat (cashmere of course)...:ok:

[StopStart]

RAF Merlin crews to CH47F, Navy Sea King crews to Merlin, Navy Sea Kings to bin.

Retention bonus? I heard a million pounds each for every month you stay on, paid in krugerrands and platinum ingots with a minimum 24hr contract. I think. :hmm:

[Evalu8ter]

Krugerrands? I'd heard the FRIs were going to be paid in gold until they realised some cycloptic rogue trader had sold it all at the bottom of the market....

20/20 Vision? More like 20/20 Hindsight...if the proposals are true then this is the fleet we should have bought in the mid-90s.

[[email protected]]

Finnpog - I bet that amphibious capability is really useful in Afghanistan:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

The vast majority of PA aircrew are now beyond their 5 year lock-in clause and can leave without penalty. Also, I gather that recruitment from civvy street has all but dried up at the moment.


Not in the RN...Many have not even started their 5 year lock in yet...

I gather that the RAF has stopped recruiting and is due to start again in 16 months....Certainly, that's the message the Exeter recruiting Officer told me.



Do the RAF fly the Merlin with a single pilot or do they take 2?

Will the RN fly the green Merlin with a single pilot?

[Finnpog]

You are quite correct there Crab.
No point having an amphib bit of kit to support the sole standing amphib brigade in the British OrBat - that might almost be an outbreak of common sense.

<Engage Atonement>
There is no war but this one.
There will be no war but this one.
There was never any other war but this one.
:E:ok:

[you'llneverguesswhat]

So we are getting 10 new chinooks! Big whoppee! Have we not written off about 5 in the past 3-5 years or so? Is it not about time someone with some nouse tells the powers that be we need new airframes every year, just to replace worn out airframes coming back from the desert. We may end up with a surplus in 5 years time but that is surely better than the present day scenario of not enough.
The puma upgrade will be a very positive upgrade to the helicopter capabilities ( though it doesn't mean that its the best thing around[cougar anybody]).
What about spares? Time to get british industry geared up me thinks. Solve the unemployment problem.

[Evanelpus]

I am confused here. I have heard Gordon Brown and other cronies say for ages
that we have enough Chinooks, and don't NEED any more. So why is he
considering buying some

Because there will be an election next year, that's why!

[MaroonMan4]

I have been watching this develop and lets be totally honest about this:

Boy do 'we' (Defence) need the rotary lift increase (not just for Afghanistan, but for any post SDR scenario - both land and amphibious based), and although our Commando bretheren are taking our Merlin white elephants off our hands, it is certainly (a bit) better than their current chariot - especially if the Freaks actually gain approval/funding for a better/improved engine to handover to the Fisheads.

Without getting into an inter-fleet slagging competition I believe that there is real merit in seeding RN aircrew into our green Merlin crews now, especially given the experience and exposure that the Fisheads have had in Helmand where the Merlin community are just beginning their experience curve. It will certainly assist the transition in the years ahead if this rumour is true. This should also free up some Merlin crews to start the CH47 transition, which will certainly help us out. Even I have to admit that a dark/ light blue mix in theatre at the moment is a healthy one - not just for the 'pushback' banter but for the troops on the ground in the FOBs and Patrol Bases. Fortunately the mighty twin TQ monster will always see us out lift the Fisheads, even if they do manage to ditch their Sea Queen early!

The key to this 'rumour' is timings - as already identified, this should have been implemented over a decade a go, and certainly immediately after the NAO report in 2003. But if the MoD have found a direct link into Mr Boeing for some shiney new Chinooks then I am pretty convinced that they are not going to wait for the usual UK procurement process to prevaricate and ponder other options, all in the back drop of a highly likely change of H M Govt and subsequent SDR.

Is this political spin and purely a military concept or is this truly a joint coherent political/MoD civil serpents decision, correctly funded by the treasury that will require rapid procurement, strategic planning and immediate execution if the aspired timelines are to be met?

When I see it, then I will believe it - but sadly I fully expect the media to re-cycle the same old news story for more helicopters in Afghanistan, either through a bereaved family, memoirs or 'leaked' military paper.

Tactically we are rapid, flexible and adaptive - strategically (procurement) is slow, cumbersome and attempting to appease too many people/departments and forgetting the true reason of the original requirement (i.e. British jobs/industry and political gain in preference to rapid delivery of what the commander on the ground actually wants and needs).

[Squirrel 41]

Dumb question time... and not for the first time, obviously.

Back in the spring, Italy ordered CH-47F (or ICH-47F to be precise), [see http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Italy-Buying-CH-47F-Helicopters-05413/], with AW as the prime, and Boeing as a key supplier, with assembly taking place in Italy.

But (well, according to DID), "Their industrial partnership includes a licensing arrangement that lets AgustaWestland market, sell and produce the Boeing CH-47F Chinook to Britain, other European countries.' So bingo, here's a "solution" that keeps AW (though possibly not Yeovil) happy, allows Boeing to concentrate on CH-47F / MH-47G production in Philly, and gets the UK some additional Chinooks.

But what of the detail? Will these be pukka CH-47Fs? I'm sure I'll be corrected if this "gen" is duff, but I understood that the HC2/HC2a was a slightly odd Brit-specific CH-47C/D mix, presumably made more bespoke with the new digital cockpit.

So are we going to procure a CH-47F with a Brit cockpit (ahh, what could possibly go wrong!?!) or are we going to get the same as everyone else + UK comms?

Yours curiously,

S41

[Finnpog]

Please click here http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17644

[Talk Split]

Maroonman4

Its not just a rumour; it is going to happen unfortunately...

PS Fishheads are seagoers. Last time I went to sea was 2001. Did I detect a hint of a compliment to us Junglies in your post?

[vecvechookattack]

Great pics but why is that brave young man standing in the doorway hanging onto the rail? Has he done the DL course? If he were to just bring the back door further backwards (leaving about 18 inches free) he would notice that the recirculation of dust around the starboard sponson and rear door would decrease significantly. If he needs some training on how to conduct Dust landings I can offer him the telephone number of a good QHI at Yeovilton

[Talk Split]

Reference last sentence in above post:

I have never moonlighted before but my rates are cheap...

[TheWizard]

Vicvacwhatever,
You really do like to advertise your ignorance on these pages don't you?
I am sure that 'Tosser' would like to meet you and explain why he is carrying out the correct SOP whilst under training and I would love to see how you respond.

Moving the door on a Merlin has no effect on the dust circulation outside whatsoever you muppet.:ugh:
The dust cloud starts at the rear of the aircraft, not the front.

Why would an RAF crewman want the number of a Naval QHI? (unless you are making some sort of RN related offer? :uhoh:)

EDIT: 'Offending' word removed as VVwhatever has decided to grow up a bit.

[Unchecked]

VecVec

I don't know anything about you or the Sea King or the SOPs of a RN crewman, but I'll leave you with one statement.

The Merlin is not a Sea King.

[barnstormer1968]

Evaneplus


Quote:
I am confused here. I have heard Gordon Brown and other cronies say for ages
that we have enough Chinooks, and don't NEED any more. So why is he
considering buying some
Because there will be an election next year, that's why!



I think you might find I had already said that in my post!

See my quote below:ok:

'Has realised there is an election looming'

[petop]

Quote..."Have they stopped faffing about at El Centro yet?"

Meaning are they in somewhere hot and dusty somewhat proper, then yes they are!!

[vecvechookattack]

During trials in Kenya and Morocco it was discovered that if you conduct a DL with the door fully open then the dust cloud will start to encompass the aircraft from the vicinity of the RHS pilots window. With the door half way open the the cloud starts in the vicinity of the forward starboard window. With the door two thirds open then the cloud starts just forward of the door.

The Boffins put it down to re-circ. A little sceptical at first the theory was tried and blow me if it wasn't correct..... Therefore....best practice was to have the door somewhere between two thirds and halfway open....In essence it gives the handling pilot about another 10 seconds of viz before he is in the lap of the gods.

The same re-circ issue was trialled on a Type 23 Frigate....same details same result.

[minigundiplomat]

Not sure about the merits of doing dust landings in a Type 23 Frigate. Probably best if it's done in a helicopter.

[Finnpog]

At least you shouldn't suffer from Vortex Ring State in a Type 23...:8

[Hilife]

As noted, any additional Chinook procurement is long overdue and would help to put right Mr. Rifkind’s wrong in the 90’s.

Boeing will be only too aware that when it comes to heavy lift the UK MoD only has eyes for Chinook, which puts them in a strong negotiating position, but that shouldn’t detract from the need to buy more.

The idea of giving the CHF the MK3’s to replace the Sea King has been around for some time, although a desire for a fully marinised platform will likely see a costly modification program in the future.

I hear from some circles that if more Chinooks are coming, then FMH is dead. Assuming the MK3’s go salty, then the Sea King solution is identified, but not so for the Puma as I still see a role for a smaller utility/medium lift platform post 2022 – 2027 when the Puma’s finally goes and also for Spec Ops.

There is a need (and it makes sense) to reduce platform model numbers to as few as possible, so it’s a shame we didn’t go the Chinook, BlackHawk, Apache (and maybe even a flight of Little Bird’s) solution as they are all proven, do what they say on the box and are widely used by a large number of our allies. Interoperability - what a novel idea.

A weekend opinion poll shows a growing majority of the UK population want British troops out of Afghanistan within 12 months. I see Mr. Brown wasted no time at last night’s Lord Mayor's banquet in making a little political gain out of this news and in spite of what the Military see as a need for the future, I wonder whether any expedited exit strategy will cause Ministers to question the number of new platforms on the wish list?

[MaroonMan4]

Hilife,

Some valid points, but regardless of whether UK Plc pull out of Afghanistan in the next 5 years or not is in my eyes irrelevant. Whether it is future warfighting against large armoured formations or disaster relief New Orleans style, HMT and Prime Minister Brown can look for as many scape goats and political spin options as they want, but the hard fact (backed up now by considerable operational experience and not just RUSI 'think tanks' ,Operational Analysis and NAO reports) is that the UK has been taking considerable risk in underfunding/resourcing helicopter lift. Not just an odd per cent here and there - but a huge amount of lift capability shortfall.

Like anyone I welcome any politcal solution to any conflict (war is after all just a continuation of politics by another means!), but if we believe that once the requirement for H M Forces in Afghanistan is reduced/removed that the requirement for helicopters is also reduced/ removed then we are deceiving ourselves (again) or shifting the risk to another Govt or generation.

[NURSE]

Are we going for an of the shelf purchase with proper hard/software support or are we going to do the usual insist on a myriad of changes that will have to be trialed and approved?

As for pilots I'm sure once the Harrier and Tornado fleet are run down there will be a surplus of pilots available and given the offer of convert to helecopters or redundancy at a time when there will be poor job prospects outside many will air and ground crew will jump at the opportunity.

If Merlin HC3 is going CHF how much work will be needed to maritimeise it and is this why one of the Carriers or the carrier will be an LPH as it will have bigger lifts to accomidate the non folding tailboom etc.

[NURSE]

I see the Blackhawk in UK colours raises its head again!

Maybe it would be a better contender for Flynx replacement and cancel the puma upgrade to fund it and when the AAC has its blackhawks scrap puma.

[Not_a_boffin]

Merlin HC3 to sea?

Start from scratch. Folding head, folding tail, reinstallation of lashing points which may or may not be sufficient for deck ops but have been removed as a weight-saving measure, full SHOL prog (HC3 not cleared for deck ops or in BR766).

Then the whole EMI/EMC process and thats before e deal with any airframe issues...............

Needs folding head, otherwise will be unable to work on LPD or LPH and tail as it won't fit in hangars (tail rotor tip 6.7m off deck) otherwise.

[MaroonMan4]

Not a Boffin,

Although we all know that Merlin is not the answer - as many know it is certainly better than the current airframe. But be careful at a time of SDR and financial constraints in making the whole evolution appear too difficult and costly.

Get your foot in the door (hopefully with improved engine performance) and then start the SHOL and marinisation process. You (the Fisheads) can even start talking about force mixes (CH47/Merlin) if you really want.

But all in time, and if a CH47 can remain decked park on the O Boat, then as an interim measure I am sure that a Merlin can offer a limited IOC (for the right price I am sure that QQ will clear a Mk3 pretty quickly for a limited SHOL). Here and now (i.e. today) lets start the ball rolling with increasing the lift, through more CH47.

And if CHF doesn't want Merlin, then I am sure that it can join a light blue CH47 double earmarked amphib wing ready for when HMS Prince of Wales becomes an LPH with CH47 capable lifts.

And we all know how well double earmarking works :)

[Not_a_boffin]

MM4

Only too well aware of the finance constraints, but having looked at this very issue a couple of years ago, the Wokka is in many ways an easier bird to get aboard.

You can indeed deck park them on Ocean, but when there are a lot more birds (eg somewhere between six and nine for a full Coy grp lift) then you'll run out of space real quick.

And CHF live on a lot more platforms than Ocean. Typically you'll have one or two detached living on LPD (not possible with a non-folding bird).

The real killer is the EMI/EMC issue. If there are any dramas then they'll be expensive to fix and definitely not work-roundable.........

You should also know that the uprated engines are of chocolate fireguard use without the GB rating being fixed.

You're right on the lift issue, but running headlong at a (IMO dubios) solution because it gets a few more Wokkas doesn't fit the bill and might end up somewhere worse. In any case, I thought this issue was aircrew availability, not airframes.

[MaroonMan4]

N_a_b,

Agreed - power plant improvements will always require gear train/transmission mods and hopefully the Freaks and Cap ALM will ensure that a hollistic view is taken in any potential future upgrade.

As to EMI, of course an issue - but if Osprey, AH and other data bus digital FADEC platforms can make it onboard one of your floating tubs then unless there is some very special electricky with the Merlin then it should be able to embark (even if work rounds and selective switch offs are required in the early IOC days). Not ideal I agree, but not a show stopper.

But why am I trying to force Merlin on the Fisheads? I have always said that CH47 is the answer, and if amphibious lift capability is the true requirement from those on the ground, then why are we either bothering with Merlin? A joint CH47 force ain't that bad - I know that you were bitten with the Harrier fraternity, but trust me there is absolutely no appetite for us light blue to spend our careers bobbing up and down looking for your beloved golden rivet! Give the mighty wokka a try and you will not look back!

SAR H needs a platform (can HMT see a contra deal with industry's SAR H prime contractor?). Merlin is already proven in this role in Canada and Japan isn't it?

Why not AH/CH47 (BRH/Wildcat - if we must) for JHC and then keep Puma (post LEP) for any niche specialised tasks on the rare occasions when size really doesn't matter?

Saves the 2nd CVF through a genuine requirement for Amphib shipping, full of CH47 will certainly solve the NAO's amphibious lift deficiency. All of the other boats can be used for AH, BRH/Wildcat (if we must) and U(C)AVs.

[Not_a_boffin]

If the answer is the Wokka, then what's the question?:}

Your points on EMI etc are well made, but I think I'm right in suggesting that neither V22, nor AH have operated off a grey-war canoe for extended periods. V22 (which is designed for a maritime environment) has done a couple of landing on a CVS and AH has done a number of deck trials off LPH, but neither has operated to the best of my knowledge.

Nor can one get round the issue of folding by hoping that a limited capability of LPH/CVS will suffice while waiting for a big-deck CVF with appropriate lifts. Those cabs will have to operate off a range of decks (including the cloggies) and a Wokka on deck knocks out two spots compared to a folded MH of some description.

As to light blue proclivities towards embarked ops, you're not kidding. When I was going round Benson and Odiham a couple of years back, the unanimous response to the idea of such was "where's me PVR form?" from a bunch of people who were busily working their @rses off in both sandy places and quite rightly worried that another demand was in the offing.

[Evalu8ter]

MM4 / NaB,
You two sound like attendees at a SABR requirements meeting...

The cycloptic muppet and his CS/Military outriders killed the folding CH47 SABR platform 5 years ago with the £1.5Bn raid on the RW budget. Ironically, they'd be arriving soon. Be sort of handy right now wouldn't they?

The imperitive seems to be getting aircraft at the rush - this would preclude any attempt to marinise the CH47F - that boat has probably sailed (pardon the pun..). So, what we're left with, is spending almost as much money 5 years later to buy (likely) inferior aircraft v the SABR baseline (no fat tanks, no blade fold, no wx radar, no wet build etc etc). However, it HAS to be better than buying more Merlin. The final config state of a CHF Merlin would need to be such that it genuinely provides the CHF with an uplift in capability - and a load more wokkas should ensure there are always enough for 2-3 in future TAGs.

The marinisation of the Merlin will probably take some time, but then we've got it. I can't see many fighting a temporary "capability holiday" on Amphib lift if the cabs (SK or Merlin) are doing the job in Afg - hopefully it will give the OEM time to think through the maritime, performance and capability problems.

Oh, and NaB, having operated extensively of one of the war canoes during Ops near a sandy place, I would always chose an air conditioned cabin, head and wardroom over a tent, tent and tent!!

[MaroonMan4]

Evalu8ter,

I bow to your superior knowledge - and there is only one requirements meeting......

get the commander off the ground (or beach) and ask him what he wants

and that should also answer Nab's 'what is the question'....

The question is....what does the commander on the ground really want and need to deliver (lift) his troops into combat? And before anyone says infantry grunts know diddly about air operations or elecopters, then sadly there is many a brown job that truly knows what is required....both now in our current conflict, and probably for the troops that are going to need to lifting for future conflicts.

Ironically though (if you re-read my posts) Evalua8r, I do agree with you, and an increase in lift is required 'at the rush' and therefore we should just get on with it - and yes, Merlin will adapt to adding value to current and future conflicts (if the Junglies can make their current Sea King work, then I am sure that they will work around the limitations of our Merlin!) - there you go Talk Split, there is is your rare compliment.

We are where we are (yeeeeuch - did I just say that :{ ) - lets just get on and do it shall we (but first of all lets see if Prime Minister Brown actually approves what us non-civil serpents having been waxing lyrical about shall we!)

[Evalu8ter]

MM4,
Totally agree with you - but, as you intimate, those culpable in the cuts to SABR/FRC are now faced with the problem of trying to explain a new RW order without totally embarressing themselves - and the probelm of wriggling out of the "we've got enough 'elicopters" statements of the past two years.

JHC have a very good idea of what's needed - after all, that's the point of a Joint HQ and a lot of the guys/girls in the building have been that commander on the ground, or worked for him. In the past, these aspirations haven't been matched by funding and appetite in Town. If the leaks/rumours are true then perhaps this has changed.

[Squirrel 41]

Gents,

I'm the first to say that I know nothing about 'elecopter ops (other than they can be damn fiddly for our heroic aircrew to slot with the Mighty Fin! Rubbish! :uhoh:) So in the spirit of ignorance, perhaps I can ask a few uninformed questions...

The thrust of this debate has been we need more lift - Yes, got that bit. But this seems to mean lots of people saying let's get some more Chinooks (presumably CH-47Fs (HC4, or does Project Julius get HC4 making a -47F HC5?)). Is there no useful role for Merlin HC3 in the RAF SH force or is simply that more Chinooks (per the 1995 recommendation) would be better?

If buying more Chinooks is the right answer - and I'm sure that this is a sensible idea, those who removed £1.5bn from the RW budget a few years back could say that the commitment to current ops is greater than they expected (it almost certainly is more than they expected, but whether their expectations were remotely realistic - John "We're not going to fire a single round" Reid front and centre - is another matter. :hmm:)

So IMHO there's no presentational problem that can't be overcome - so what of the technical solutions?

For Maritime heavy lift, Chinook seems great if it were marinised and had folding rotors. Currently, it doesn't, so why is CH-53K not an option? Is it cost alone or the spectre of a new type into the fleet mix? How much would full marinisation (sp?) cost for Chinook?

On the other hand, the Italians seem to have an origami Merlin Utility variant at sea - beyond the folding bits, how different is the design? What would have to be done to (i) retrofit the origami bits to HC3/3as or (ii) could we trade them in to AW for ones that do fold up?

Again, my apologies for my ignorance, but I'd genuinely appreciate understanding the pros/cons/compromises of this argument.

Cheers,

S41

[MaroonMan4]

Squirrel,

There are no stupid questions - but remember this is a rumour 'blog' and actually just shooting the breeze here!

But to try and answer your question - and it really is the only reality pill that I personally swallow is that of fleet management and TLS.

Adding another aircraft type to the UK inventory will not do us any favours and when looking at commonality of training and spares alone adding Blackhawk or CH53 or NH90 or anyother worthy 'old' FMH potential suitor not only significantly adds cost, but also will take an awful amount of time to enter service.

Hence why although I do not think a Merlin/CH47 is not the turn key solution, but if Prime Minister Brown, HMT and civil serpents are serious about increasing rotary wing lift then there is every possibility that it will deliver a large increase in short time frames. Conceivably CHF aircrew could start green Merlin conversions tomorrow (aircrew and gingers) as could Merlin crews to CH47 - all with spares and TLS contracts in place for the initial stages of the transition.

And as to keeping a weather eye on future requirements, then as already discussed, CH47s are a huge lift capability, and will only get better with engine and avionic upgrades. Admittedly the Fisheads should also have had CH47, but given their current archaic aircraft, then Merlin is not that bad and I dare say that the Fisheads will make their deck cycles and the rest of their oggin gumpf work as well as potentially help the rest of JHC in land locked conflicts.

If Merlin to the Fisheads is the only political/UK industry compromise (to keep AW ticking over and not really admit (for export purposes) that it was an SH white elephant) then for the greater good of rapidly procuring 20 or so more CH47 will be worth it for the overall requirement, namely the boots on the ground.