Winching problem

[Nigel Osborn]

Any one have details what went wrong with the winching incident off Thursday Island. The news said both the medic & crewman were injured after falling 16 metres onto the deck. Hopefully not too serious.

[Oogle]

Just saw on the Aussie news website:

Rescuers plunge 16m from helicopter onto ship as winch breaks | The Courier-Mail (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,26329225-3102,00.html)

Mentions "substantial injuries".

Hope all is OK.

[makrider]

Hi Folks,

You know what kind of chopper and whinch was that ?

Bye :ok:
Mak

[Oogle]

I believe that they have 2 Bell 412's up there. A Classic and EP.

Most of the SAR/EMS machines here in Australia have the BF Goodrich hoist fitted.

[catseye]

anyone got an update on the people involved in this incident. Nothing on the qld emergency or ambulance websites.

[[email protected]]

I would be asking questions about the winch operator's experience and skill level, not the pilot's.

[Ascend Charlie]

Crab,
There's no problem with the skills and experience of those lads, all are eminently suitable for the task.
The cable apparently contacted a mast and the shock loading snapped it. See the newest Heliops for an article on shock loading - it's ... well ... shocking.

The Teabag has shoulder and arm injuries, the paramedic is not in good condition - perhaps because he is carried lower in the harness and the teabag landed on him?:(

[Patriot 46]

Before you start asking questions about the winch operators experience and skill level, Mr Crab, perhaps you should wait until the investigation has run its course and the findings are released. Just remember that it takes a CREW to carry out a winch job. Not just the Pilot, not just the Crewman. I know for a fact that the CREW involved are both very professional and experienced operators.:ok:

[[email protected]]

Patriot - my point was exactly that - the article talks only about the pilot's experience and doesn't mention the winch-op at all. Deck winching can go from benign to scary in a heartbeat - perhaps winching the winchman down first and then sending the paramedic would be a better procedure - it is easier for one person on the wire to control their position and fend off obstacles than it is 2 and you only hurt one person at a time if it goes wrong.

A hi-line sounds like it would have been a good idea if the winching area was so tight that a mast got in the way!

If it was a merchant vessel I'm guessing it was a reasonable size - anyone know what the sea state was at the time?

[LHSboy]

Thoughts are with all involved, hoping for the best for the injured crew.

[minigundiplomat]

Patriot,

I think Crab's post was one of clarification, rather than criticism. I don't think he was having a dig at anyone. Hope those concerned get better soon.

MGD

[helmet fire]

My thoughts to the two badly injured blokes....lets not forget they were injured going into harms way for the sake of others.:D

Good luck boys.

[Nigel Osborn]

I am still a bit surprised that both the medic & crewman went down together as normally the medic looks after the patient, so I'm not sure what the crewman was going to do.
No doubt all this will come out later. The news said the medic was quite seriously hurt, so let's hope everyone recovers.

[crewguard]

As I understand the winching took place in the Gulf of Carpentaria, approx 50 nm west of Horn Island in the Torres Straits. vessel was a container ship called MV Maersk Duffield. weather and sea state were all within limits etc

[forget]

If it was a merchant vessel I'm guessing it was a reasonable size

For what it's worth. MV Maersk Duffield.

SeapixOnline.Com professional maritime photo library (http://www.seapixonline.com/nsthumbs.php?wds=Maersk+Duffield&pid=400&typ=name&back=temp/nsnamesma&rhit=39)

[tecpilot]

Would like to know how much cable failure accidents we have in that kind of operation?
Know some accidents in the mountains due to shock loading and one accident with the back jumping cable damaged the MR.

[[email protected]]

So it was a chuffing big boat, in daylight, in reasonable sea and wind conditions with crews appropriately trained and practised - what went wrong?

Since the report states the winch wire snagged a mast, you can rule out mechanical failure of the winch - it won't hold up several thousand tons of merchant vessel and the wire appears to have snapped after getting snagged.

There is no mention of a mechanical failure of the aircraft either which pretty much leaves operator error due to either the choice of the winching area or the control of the winching evolution or both.

Sorry to be criticising the crew but there seems little else that could have caused this unfortunate accident other than poor piloting, poor winch operating or both.

[Rescue1]

So there you have it no need to hold an enquiry Job done Crab that fountain of knowledge to all things SAR has worked out who's fault it was.:ugh:
The little respect I had for him has just gone out the window.:\

[Zoomtrap]

Gee Crab you are all over it. Perhaps the ATSB should speak to you about what went wrong. No need to go any further. In fact, they could use a person like you for all their investigations.:ugh:

[Helocrew]

It's great to see that this Rumour Network is living up to its name, cheers Crab...:=

As all (well most) SAR/EMS crews' know all too well, the very mundane that has been practiced and trained for time and time again can, in a heart beat, turn very ugly and into dangerous situation; it looks like this may have been one of those times. I am sure that the crew would not have been tasked to conduct any rescue that they were not qualified for or up to completing.

Why don't we all do the professional thing and wait for the the investigation to run its' course and then dissect the findings and then throw comment, be it re equipment failure or human error.
An update on the Rescue Crewie is that he will recover from his injuries after surgery and should be back in the saddle in a few months after rehab (straight from the horses mouth). The paramedic has undergone surgery for his injuries and all are hopeful that he recovers fully. :ok:

Well done to the second crew (yes, from the same company and with the same training) that were called out to recover their injured comrades; one can only imagine the thoughts and feelings that they were experiencing on the trip out. Great job guys & girls :D

[[email protected]]

Say what you like but in many years of helicopter flying and winching, I haven't seen a winching accident that wasn't caused by mistakes by either the pilot or the winchop - people make mistakes, it's a fact and unless you learn from those mistakes, those accidents will keep on happening.

Still no answer why the paramedic went down with the winchman - is that normal procedure for Aus SAR?

[bast0n]

Crab

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH!

I had a close call whilst winching when a rogue wave hit the front of the aircraft with a chap on the wire. One engine stopped and the other (luckily) ran away up! We were at a sensible height for the ship and the job. Had both engines stopped would it have been a winching accident caused by pilot/crewman error? I think conditions can be a factor - so perhaps you are being a smidgin simplistic........:ok:

[[email protected]]

Baston - but it didn't stop and it wasn't a winching accident, it was an engine failure (nearly two) and you didn't damage the winchman because you were in the right position.

If the Aus guys had bent the winchman because of an engine failure I would still have asked questions about having the paramedic on the wire as well but not about the cause of the accident - they don't appear to have had such a malfunction.

If it had been a rogue wave breaking over a container vessel I feel sure that the report might have read somewhat differently.

[Freestream]

Firstly I hope that the Paramedic and the rescue crewman recover from their injuries and wish them well.

I have had a look at the photo of the ship does anyone know where the winch took place? Bow, Stern or bridge wing. What was the ships MLA and relative wind over the deck, if they were conducting ops on the stern did they give any consideration to superstructure turbulence also why was the Hi-Line technique not employed surly these guys were trained in this procedure.

For those who are unaware of when a Hi-Line might be used.

The HI-LINE transfer is a procedure employed when normal winching would be hazardous, aircraft operating height is determined by obstructions and the sea conditions.

Conditions under which a Hi-line might be used are as follows:

} When the winching area is confined or obstructed such that there is a risk of the wireman striking or snagging obstructions.
} The vessel is too small or the winching area located such that the pilot cannot maintain visual contact while hovering.
} Ship movement is a hazard to the helicopter at the height for a normal winch transfer.
} Normal winching areas are unusable for any reason? weather conditions or damage.

Be interesting to see what the enquire brings out

[Cabe LeCutter]

Crab initially made a sensible comment, the competency of the whole crew rather than just the pilot are factors to be looked at in an investigation, but environmental factors should also be considered. I agree that going on to to the deck clean and being in a good position to receive the medic is ideal, but I am sure that an investigation will decide if the thought processes were sensible. We do not know the facts so do not hang the crew on guesswork. I do not deny that the initial reports looks like someone made an error, but who really believes anything written in the press?

A technical point on the winch, if it was not a piece of kit out of the ARC (like the SeaKing 3/3A), it would have a slip clutch. The Goodrich hoist on the EP412 that I have flown breaks out at 1200 - 1500 pounds; that suggests to me that the cable was cut by abrasion on an object rather than a dead weight.

Bottom line guys, wait for the report, we may all have some good lessons to learn from honest reporing rather than hidden facts shrouded by fear of a Prune Kangaroo Court.

On the other hand, never let the truth spoil a good story

Heads Down, Look out for the flack.

[Treg]

Hi Crab, compared to your experience in SAR my 2000hrs is probably not quite a dog-watch, but at about the 1300hr mark when conducting a rather benign winch to the bow of a wreck we used for training I noticed that I, as rescue crewman, was being air taxied away from the bow towards the beach, fortunately just 200m away.

The abrupt change to the planned sortie was due to the fact that a couple of strands had parted (for no apparent reason) and so the crewman aborted the winch and elected to sling me to the beach.

On return to base advice from engineering as to why the wire had failed was a blank; it was within tolerance and all documents were in order?

The reason for this post is to point out that just because something hasn’t been witnessed by an experienced individual does not mean that it will never occur. An example of this is the following infamous quote:

“When anyone asks how I can best describe my nearly forty years at sea, I merely say, uneventful… I never saw a wreck and never have been wrecked, nor was ever in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster of any sort… I cannot conceive of any vital disaster happening to this vessel. Modern ship building has gone beyond that”

Captain E J Smith, shortly before he sailed as master of RMS Titanic

[Goggle Up]

Wise words Helocrew, well said :ok:

Crab, you are a dead set clown. Give yourself an upper cut and shut your uninformed pie hole. :ugh:

Speculation at this stage is purely that. If you have some facts to contribute then fill your boots, otherwise, stop embarassing yourself.


GU.

[Freestream]

[QUOTE]The abrupt change to the planned sortie was due to the fact that a couple of strands had parted (for no apparent reason) and so the crewman aborted the winch and elected to sling me to the beach.

On return to base advice from engineering as to why the wire had failed was a blank; it was within tolerance and all documents were in order?

Have you given any thought to the fact that some Clown may well have shock loaded that cable prior to your sortie and failed to report (Cables do not just separate for no apparent reason) http://www.pprune.org/Local%20Settings/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif

BZ to the crewman who spotted ithttp://www.pprune.org/Local%20Settings/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image002.gif

[[email protected]]

Goggle up - the facts:

The accident happened and it was clearly reported that the cable came into contact with the ship and subsequently parted,

The second crew recovered the injured winchman and paramedic from the same vessel in the same location,

The only thing left to surmise is what the second crew did differently to the first.