Fast-jets in the sky

[davedek]

Hi all, a question here from someone with a lot of interest in military aviation, but no involvement in it whatsover - hopefully someone might know what I'm talking about.

I noticed something strange this evening while driving that I have not seen before - a long line of 6 to 8 orange glowing lights in the sky, obviously aircraft. My girlfriend actually spotted them first, and after discounting her ideas of UFOs and/or fireworks, I realised that the prominent orange glow around these aircraft could only be caused by afterburning engines.

After stopping the car and listening, I could not hear any noise from the aircraft, so presumably if they were afterburner flames that I could see they must have been a LONG way off for there to be no noise.

They seemed to be travelling along a VERY approximate line from Northampton, to Leicester, and off north-north-westwards towards Nottingham (I was observing them from a place called Uppingham, roughly mid-way between Peterborough and Leicester). They started low, and seemed to be climbing at a fair rate. The first one then seemed to level out, and then suddenly dissapeared, which I can only assume was the pilot throttling back after leveling off at high altitude.

My question is - which aircraft could these possibly have been that I saw today? My first thought was that it could be the American F-15Es from Lakenheath in Norfolk (which do occasionally make it over this way, seen them at much lower level during the day) off towards the Lake District for practice, but their track seemed to be completely wrong for this, unless they had made a BIG detour south-westwards first.

I'm a fair distace south-west of Conningsby, so it can't be any of the fast jets from there. I'm completely stumped as to what aircraft I might have been seeing.

Probably a very silly question asking what they were, how the heck is anyone on PPRUNE meant to know what I saw right??? But just thought someone might have some knowledge to satisfy my curiosity :}

Thanks guys.

[TheOptimist]

I'd have thought that if you could see 6-8 afterburners you would have been able to hear them....

Not calling you a liar, I just wonder if you were mistaken perhaps. Are you sure they weren't fireworks :suspect:

[davedek]

Yeah, I'm sure they weren't fireworks! (Despite what my girlfriend thought!)

I watched them for about 5 minutes or so, all rise from the South and pass out to my west, heading up North somewhere, in a long line. I really was surprised I couldn't hear them, but as I say they must have been a long LONG way off, and very high.

When I first saw them, they were very faint, but as they passed to my north-west I could them see the back of them, they became much much brighter, the glow was a little bigger and they were actually flickering somewhat. It had to be afterburners, nothing else it could be. Then the lead 2 or 3 suddenly dissapeared one by one.

Has to be fast-jets, unless I just saw a bunch of UFOs without realising it.... but I guess you can call them UFOs now since I don't know for sure what they were! (No, I'm not trying to say I just saw aliens. PLEASE nobody start talking about aliens!)

Forgot the mention, I tried to take some photos on my phone, but the bad camera just showed the black night sky :(

[GreenKnight121]

Swamp gas/ball lightning/seismic stress static discharge/insert other favorite denial explanation.

:E

[TheOptimist]

Sky lanterns perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqf8E2-WKoM&feature=related

They're really popular at the minute and people are letting them off everywhere.

I'm not determined to disprove you by the way, I just don't know anything about afterburners or recent fast jet flights :}

[davedek]

Hmmm... not heard of sky lanterns before, I guess I can't say for definate it wasn't them, without proof! And we are only 2 days after bonfire night. But it wouldn't explain why from one angle they were very faint, but from the other angle they were much, much brighter.

Oh well, I'll probably never know. I'm convinved it was fast jets, and I'll live in hope that someone on here knows about them and can confirm what I saw (highly unlikely I know!)

[TEEEJ]

What you have witnessed will be Sky/Chinese Lanterns. If they had been afterburners then you would have heard them.

RAF Lakenheath would have had a NOTAM issued for it being open on a Saturday.

It is open later on today for likely recovery of F-15s from overseas.

'U2443/09 - AD OPEN FOR OFFICIAL BUSINESS ONLY. 08 NOV 13:00 2009 UNTIL 08 NOV 15:30 2009.'

If they had been that number of fast jets up then the radio enthusiasts would have detected the activity. The internet forums would have been buzzing with that number of jets up on a weekend. The noise alone of that number of jets on a weekend would have had the aircraft enthusiast forums buzzing with chatter.

The following Sky Lantern was detected by a Police Helicopter crew last year.
If, like the crew, you had never seen one then you can imagine it would create a bit of interest!

YouTube - POLICE Helicopter Chases UFO ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbblDaMZPvI)

TJ

[Double Zero]

When I first saw the title ' fast jets in the sky ' my initial reaction was " well, better than underwater ".

As a ( pro' ) aerial photographer, I find it easy to believe you could see afterburners in the distance but not hear them.

The point about NOTAMS is a good one but not everything is advertised, likewise I'd be rather despondent if ALL military radio traffic could be picked up by spotters with scanners !

As said, it IS near fireworks night, so the only other thing I can think of is someone with a really serious but still off the shelf set of large rockets ( though I can't recall seeing firework rockets leave a glowing back end as described, more of a trail of sparks, so these must have been expensive and quite possibly hazardous ! ).

I'd imagine the people who experiment with proper rockets, taking months and lots of money to build the things, would distance themselves from ' launches ' anywhere near this time of year as they take things seriously, and would have to file NOTAMS.

[TheSmiter]

Deja vu :ugh:

I'm with TEEEJ on this one.

Banter caption - ON

The idea of a British fast jet airborne on a Saturday outwith the Airshow season is just too farcical to contemplate.
Get a grip davetek. :{

Banter caption - OFF

[whowhenwhy]

Sorry, another vote for the sky lantern theory. They appear just as you described, saw a 3-ship of them last night myself. I think I read somewhere recently that they now account for a large majority of UFO sightings. That said, I think that they have to NOTAM the things now, or it might only be if they're close to/inside an ATZ.

[The B Word]

What about this?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/aircraft-pictures/2008/09/04/AC-130Small-thumb-450x338.jpg

[SirToppamHat]

I had also not seen the modern chinese lanterns until last night when my Brother-in-Law let one off in a light breeze. They are about 2-3 ft high, and in the dark it is almost impossible to gauge the distance to them. A string of them let off together or even 'in trail' might well appear like ac heading away from you in some circumstances. As it left the garden heading west I explained that it was a remote control lantern and would shortly turn to the right as it climbed ... much relieved when it did as predicted.

It continued to burn for a good 10 minutes when it either extinguished or flew out of sight.

As for fast jets, I am with the others on this - Oh and Smiter, no need for the banter caption in this case I think!

STH

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

We had Chinese lanterns over here last evening and I had not seen them before. My son saw them and called me.. A quick check with binoculars revealed a single orange light source. There were 3 in a line and they were moving fairly quickly but in the dark we had no way of knowing how far away they were.

[davedek]

Yeah, I didn't really think that being a Saturday, fast-jets were very unlikely. Was probably just lanterns then, oops!

On a side note - the American F-15s, I do sometimes see (and hear!) them over my way, during the day when it's very obvious what they are. Just wondering, when they do head over to the Lake District/Wales or wherever they happen to be doing low-level stuff, do they usually fly low the whole way there, or climb to high level and over the top of all the commercial traffic and then drop down into the valleys? Any experts know?

[SirToppamHat]

There were 3 ways when I last looked:

Low Level VFR or using the LARS system where available.
Medium level with ATC using one of the corridors through the main UK spine system.
High level going above the majority of airways traffic, but again in receipt of a mil control service.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has more recent info.

The choice will be made based on the weather, sortie requirements, length of 'transit' and, of course, the aircraft type. As far as I recall, Typhoons tend to be happy going over the top almost irrespective of the transit length. F3s don't.

F15s tend to go at ML.

GR4s seem to prefer life at LL.

But as I said these are not absolutes.

STH

[Gainesy]

Chances of seeing FJ on a Saturday night are very slim unless QRA is launched.

Chinese lanterns seem popular for weddings etc, never seen any for sale though.

[Widger]

Most definitely chinese lanterns. I let some off regularly at birthday parties etc. Dependent on the wind speed they can be very effective UFOs for the un-initiated. I get mine from the glow company.

[ShyTorque]

From today's NOTAMs:

Q) EGTT/QWLLW/IV/M/AW/000/020/5158N00012W002
A) EGGW B) FROM: 09/11/08 18:45C) TO: 09/11/08 19:15

E) MULTIPLE RELEASE OF SKY LANTERNS. EVENT WI 2NM 5158N 00012W (EAST
LETCHWORTH FOOTBALL GROUND, HERTFORDSHIRE).
ON-SITE CONTACT 07891472773. AUS 09-11-0301/AS2.

LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 2000FT AMSL

[culzean12]

Aha! So that's why i saw two Eagles cruising South when I was strolling along the beach at St A's at around 1330 today! Thanks NOTAM geeks!;)

[P-T]

Davedek, I'm with STH on this one. the RAF usually go through the airways at miloitary crossing points, such as lichfield or daventry then drop down into Low level once near task. This way they get to save as much fuel as possible for playing around at 250/100 ft as this tends to be very heavy on the fuel consumption. Last check was 60kg a minute at LL and 600kg at full reheat! So the more you have the better as I seem to recall taht the GR4 would be empty if you were in afterburner for 13 mins (spprox). The GR is limited below FL240 as it is non RVSM (this it to the best of my knowledge, i await to be corrected)

USAF, they tend to go higher as they are authorised for this with their transponders and then don't go as low usually. Normally about 1000ft not 250ft.

Hope this helps? And yes, I've seen teh lanterns before and they do look like a fighter trail.

[Easy Street]

P-T, consider yourself corrected. The GR4 is indeed non-RVSM compliant, but this is of little consequence since a) RVSM airspace starts at FL290, not FL240, and b) the European militaries operate under waivers (STS/NONRVSM on flight plans, if filed). GR4 routinely crosses back from the West Freugh area to Marham at FL280 (other routings tend to use the corridors, which hold the altitude down significantly).

Thanks to the waiver, a GR4 can go a bit higher still in UK airspace; in fact a couple of intrepid souls have taken one up to FL330 recently - prompting London Mil to ask "confirm aircraft type GR4?"! Take the external tanks off and it gets better still, but I have yet to hear of anyone getting close to the maximum altitude limit in the RtoS...