Festival of Remembrance!!

[B-Chops]

Absolutely awesome - Coming Home!! Lest we forget.

[Charlie Time]

Particularly good and moving this year.

[XL319]

Fantastic tribute to all the services! :D Lest we forget!!!

[dunc0936]

watching it, very humbling,

Eastbourne town centre morning, anyone else going to be around there??

Duncan

[Stretch182]

Excellent this year - dust in my eye again...
We will remember them

Stretch

[Donkey497]

I must be getting old.

I remember the Festivals of Remembrance of old where the whole of the floor of the Albert Hall was filled by tightly packed members of the three armed forces & there were military displays before they formed up. (Does anyone else remember the Navy doing mast manning, or Army PT instructors doing crossover gymnastic displays?


I am all for change and development, but I found it disheartening to see the only forces related features being on the death and injury of selected individuals. I fully appreciate that the point of the night and tomorrow is to reflect upon those who made the ultimate sacrifice and those who have to live with the consequences of their service life. In previous years, I feel that a more positive aspect to life in the forces was presented based on comradeship and shared experiences, which probably acted as a significant benefit in recruitment terms.

Looking at the small numbers of what one might term "real" armed forces personnel on parade, one one hand, it surprised me that the Cubs and the Brownies weren't drafted in to try to try to fill up the empty space on the floor of the Albert Hall, even although they keep increasing the size of the platform that they build up a drumhead altar on. Not too long ago, the drumhead was built up on the stage, now it's in the middle of the flor to disguise how few armed forces folks we can spare for something as important as this.

I appreciate that we're in the middle of a war with Afghanistan & we need the folks on the ground just now, but surely we can scrape more folks together?

Roll on the cenotaph, hopefully it'll stay dry untill I lay my wreath.....

[seafuryfan]

I disagree with you about the numbers of personnel on the floor, Donkey. Times have changed, and with them have the numbers available to be spared for such occassions.

The content is the important thing, and for me the mix was very good indeed. Hats off to the whole team involved for a moving and thought provoking tribute to the fallen and those who they have left behind. And how great it was to see an all too rare public airing of our military displaying their best pomp and circumstance.

[whowhenwhy]

Even my wife noticed the "thin red line" in terms of the small number of boys and girls out there. Was still a humbling sight as always. Just one question, why wasn't CDS in rig?

[Jabba_TG12]

Probably because he was saving it for Marr and the Cenotaph this morning....

[KPax]

At the Cenotaph, the PM did not bow his head after laying his wreath, the only person not to. Is this normal, or was it a very poor mistake. I found it disrespectful.

[BEagle]

I didn't see Brown bow his head on the BBC coverage either. Did they miss it, or did Brown really fail to show this basic and essential mark of respect?

In contrast, David Cameron, Nick Clegg and all other politicians present certainly bowed in respect.

[happysod1412]

BEagle,

I noticed Brown didn't eitherr.... makes my blood boil.

As for the BBC with there coverage last night and today they did us proud!

[Tankertrashnav]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/393690-remembrance-day-2009-a.html

Posted a comment on the above thread regarding this morning's Cenotaph ceremony.

With regard to the Festival of Rembrance I thought it was pretty much of a curate's egg, and I agree with a lot of what Donkey said. The troops, bands etc were great as always, but my main problem is the mawkish singing that has infiltrated the ceremony - Hayley Westenra doing a very weak rendition of "We'll meet again"- I'm sure Dame Vera at 90 could still do better - and that "Prayer" thing at the end - truly dire! This is all subjective stuff of course, and good luck to those above who enjoyed it but I think I'll be sticking to the Cenotaph ceremony from now on.

[Chugalug2]

Tankertrashnav, strangely I came away with a slightly different impression to you, although I didn't start viewing it until the bulk of the Service Personnel had entered the Hall. It was they in fact that made me recall the FoR's of my day. Same ages etc, but for the most part those serving were paying tribute to previous generations, mainly in both WW's. Though that remains the case of course, a lot of those personnel in the Hall recently, I would guess, have their own Remembrance at the front of their minds, of comrades with whom they shared common danger and who have made the ultimate sacrifice. As to the format, well if it's aimed more to those younger generations now than mine or even more senior ones, I personally have no quarrel with that. As for Dame Vera, it seems she's not singing anymore and leaves it to the youngsters now. Can't think why :), but you'd have to check with her if they are up to scratch or not, to her mind. Good to see her still turning out and paying tribute especially to the "Forgotten" XIVth Army. Also good to see HRH The Princess Royal taking part and not just watching. As usual it was the kid's that got to me, especially the little lad who spoke out loud, clear and word perfect his piece to the RBL President while handing over the poppies to be laid on the Book Of Remembrance. I was perfectly all right until then!

[mystic_meg]

I didn't see Brown bow his head on the BBC coverage either. Did they miss it, or did Brown really fail to show this basic and essential mark of respect?
I thought for a split second that I had blinked and missed him bowing his head, but then I realised he had not done so. Absolutely disgraceful and unforgivable - the sooner he goes, the better. I hope the media at large pick up on this and question him exactly why he saw fit to be so very disrespectful. No doubt there will be some weak, pathetic excuse spun that he was suffering some form of neck injury and couldn't bow his head.
For God's sake Gordon, GO NOW!!

[flipster]

Yes, the numbers are down in the RAH - but the pool of available volunteers is much smaller these days. It reminded me of the times when watching the serrvice with my Mother, recalling her lost friends and family and reminding me hope important it is that the 'young generation' must remember and give thanks for people who gave their todays for our tomorrows. I try and do the same with my young ones - if I can get through without blubbing!

Actually, I'm with Chug on the content RAH ceremony - it had me by throat!
The young lad was awesome - well done that man!

Today, after our local service, sat down family to watch the Cenotaph - I too thought I'd missed Broon - if it is true it shows one of 2 things:

Either he's a buffoon and got it hopelessly wrong, or that he really doesn't get it at all.

Whichever one you decide on, is he the man to be in charge of this once-great country?

[bombedup6]

Can anyone explain to me why the concluding religious part of the BBC's Festival of Rembrance is a C of E service, and not non-denominational, or inter-faith or - as I would prefer - entirely non-religious?

Is it because of the Queen's presence, or because of Tradition, or because nobody wants to think about the many Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and even secular humanists who are even now fighting and dying for this country?

I actually find it offensive that the priest in the final blessing gives the sign of the cross and pronounces in the 'name of Jesus Christ' etc. after such an excellent programme depicting our gallant servicemen and women as Brothers in Arms. Can we not all find strength in our common humanity, rather than emphasize our religious divisions? What message is that to the Muslims we have gone to help in Afghanistan?

[Nigd3]

Bombedup6

I guess you are either on a wind up or you need to get out more.
Do you really "find it offensive" to see the final blessing with the sign of the cross, if so you are maybe in the wrong country, being it a Christian one.

Get a grip

If you want to ask, no I am not a church-goer or particularly religious but your exaggerated remarks p:mad:d me off.

[teeteringhead]

Christian yes - C of E no it wasn't (don't think so anyway). Certainly in recent years it hasn't been, and the Service Chaplains have been chosen to be "one of each", ie CofE, RC and CFSC. I remember an old mate - Fr Tom Devaney - leading it once not too long ago.

Also don't think there are any non-Christian Service Padres.....but, as ever, I stand to be corrected on both counts.

As to recognition of other faiths, there are moving pictures on the big Remembrance thread of Stars of David and Crescents in the Field of Remembrance.

[Pontius Navigator]

Digressing slightly, as I went to the chancel steps this morning to recover my wreath before the end of our service, my 4 yr old grandson, unprompted, joined me and held the wreth. He then carried it out of the church in the procession.

Brought a lump to my throat.

[hello1]

From what I can see with the help of Google, there are no serving non-Christian padres but Muslim, Budhist, Sikh and Hindu and Jewish chaplains have been appointed by the MOD.

Bombedsenseless,

This was a service of REMEMBRANCE of people who - to a very large degree - claimed Christianity as their faith before they were killed serving this country. It was not about you or your personal beliefs. I suggest that the largely Christian faith of those who are being remembered is more relevant here than your idiotic politically-correct sensibilities.:ugh:

Flip,

Why one or the other, I suggest that Broon is both a buffoon who gets things hopelessly wrong and doesn't get it one little bit.;)

[hootandroar]

Had our unit rememberance parade today and thought I would share this one with you all as it was read during our service. Made me think again about what we do and the commitment we have to those left behind.

Daddy's Poem - Topic Powered by Eve Community (http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3991901033/m/9700083391001)

Sorry it's quite long

H&R

[Chugalug2]

hello1:

I suggest that Broon is both a buffoon who gets things hopelessly wrong and doesn't get it one little bit

Aye, isn't that the truth? This is the man who used to address the Lord Mayor's Banquet as Chancellor while wearing a suit because of some point or other which eventually didn't matter any more as he started wearing tails like everyone else. Perhaps not bowing his head to the fallen comes under the same heading. If the dead could speak I've no doubt they would not be bothered what he did except to say: "Spend a lot more money on our Armed Forces, you tight git!"

[TheWizard]

Just one question, why wasn't CDS in rig?
I am more than happy to be corrected but when I attended I was under the impression that only those members of the military who were part of the parade/festival wore uniform, not those in the audience.
Hence why all of the Royals were in 'civvies' avec medals and therefore CDS, CGS et all.

[Motleycallsign]

Having just watched the abridged version of this morning's ceremony at the Cenotaph, I too, noticed that Brown was his usual ignorant self in NOT paying respects after he had laid his wreath.
I attended my local Remembrance service this morning but wish I'd stayed at home, it was an embarressment once again, the only tribute that was on-time and went without a hitch was the flypast by 2 Dominies from 55(R) Sqn - well done to the crews!!
Otherwise the service was badly timed and disjointed, come on British Legion this is your day to lead the country in showing respect for those that have fallen in the service of their country do buck up or let the professionals organise the day!!!!!!

[bombedup6]

This was a 'Festival of Remembrance' from the BBC, which would then go on to show full religious services and other religious aspects of remembrance the next day. Acrosss the nation today the BBC has shown the public at prayer with religious leaders, mostly Christian.

Which is perfectly fine. Its advertised as such and that's what comes in the tin. The right place and the right time. I bowed my head myself when the prayers were intonated.

But last night was not for religious intervention, unless it was for all denominations. It was for a common and heartfelt HUMANITARIAN remembrance.

Like it or not this is largely, and increasingly, a post-Christian country where the great majority of people do not go to any kind of church regularly. You'll find that church-going Muslims just about outnumber those regularly going to Cof E churches. Of those service personnel who put CofE (or other Christian) on forms when they sign up how many are active particpants in church? My experience is very few, although it is considered and tolerated as part of the fabric of military life.

All I'm saying is that at a time when the Beeb is about to announce that Thought for the Day on Radio 4 will be opened to secular humanists it is outdated and misguided to conclude its Festival of Remembrance with an exclusively Christian - and Cof E - religious service. Please open your minds a little wider and think a little deeper before you dismiss my comments.

[modtinbasher]

I could not believe it, until I played back my DVD.....despite that every person passing their respects on this parade, regardless of being black, white, coffee, well-tanned or whatever colour and creed, large, short, fat, tall, small, able-bodied or injured through the rigours of conflict or war, every single person had a belief and were there despite their personal disabilities, to pay homage and give their respects, and to support those still standing, or fallen.

What is this man thinking of, or are his thoughts on the next £1,000,000 he can con the taxpayer out of?

McBroon, you should be ashamed.

Buggarh!

MTB

[forget]

Worry not about Broon's behaviour. The Paxman/Marr media heavy-weights will be aching to corner the git during their next interviews. I just hope I don't miss it.

[The B Word]

I am more than happy to be corrected but when I attended I was under the impression that only those members of the military who were part of the parade/festival wore uniform, not those in the audience.

This used to be the case until, I think, last year. Now all serving members are encouraged to attend in uniform. It was all part of the "wearing uniform in public" mandate released recently.

The B Word

[chiglet]

Slightly silly question.
Last night, Auntie Betty wore two Poppies, and the Princess Royal, three
Anyone explain why, please?

[hello1]

Post-Christian country perhaps but there are probably not many post-Christian foxholes out there.;)

[Wensleydale]

Sorry - a bit of thread drift.

There was an item in the news on R2 this morning about a mother complaining that the PM had mis-spelt her son's name in a letter of condolence to her after he had been killed in Afghanistan. The letter was hand written and therefore personally written by the PM.

It is this lack of attention to detail when it comes to the "personal touch" that the PM lacks - perhaps a symptom of the fact that he was not elected. It is these small things that do not endear him to the public (and his rubbish policies don't help either of course).

[anotherthing]

Wenslydale -

Reported here - Gordon Brown 'Disrespectful' Says Mother Of Guardsman Jamie Janes After PM Gets Soldier's Name Wrong | Politics | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Gordon-Brown-Disrespectful-Says-Mother-Of-Guardsman-Jamie-Janes-After-PM-Gets-Soldiers-Name-Wrong/Article/200911215445164)

Also contained 4 spelling mistakes. An authentic hand-written letter is more personal and therefore deemed more meaningful than a printed one... but not when it isn't even checked!

It just comes across as something that Broon felt he had to do to look good, but that the sooner it could be written and got rid of the better... almost as if doing it was an embuggerance to him.

[teeteringhead]

Mind you he got it a bit closer than "Obama Beach" in Normandy last year ....

Whatever you may think of either of the other party leaders, one cannot imagine them making the same mistake .... :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

From Sky News:Mr Brown also upset veterans after he failed to bow his head as he laid a wreath at the Cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday. That would appear to confirm my earlier observation.....

[ninja-lewis]

Chiglet:
Slightly silly question.
Last night, Auntie Betty wore two Poppies, and the Princess Royal, three
Anyone explain why, please? Perhaps separate poppies from RBL, Scotland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

For what it’s worth, our glorious PM still doesn’t seem to understand the difference between comrades and colleagues. Perhaps he’s confused by his reading of socialist history.

[PFMG]

Also don't think there are any non-Christian Service Padres.....but, as ever, I stand to be corrected on both counts.


Okay teeteringhead, I'll have a go:

Imam Asim Hafiz was appointed Muslim chaplain to the British armed forces in November 2005

BBC NEWS | UK | Armed forces Imam 'doing duty' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6592031.stm)

Also

Rabbi Arnold Saunders, first Jewish Civilian Chaplain in British Military hopes to bring Jewish soldiers closer to Israel

First Jewish Chaplain joins Her Majesty's Armed Forces - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3774367,00.html)

Finally

The newly appointed Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Sikh Chaplains to the Armed Forces were today welcomed to their roles by the Secretary of State for Defence, John Reid. Dr Sunil Kariyakarawana (Buddhist Chaplain), Krishan Attri (Hindu Chaplain); Imam Asim Hafiz (Muslim Chaplain) and Mandeep Kaur (Sikh Chaplain) are all civilians with cross-service responsibilities

(Nov 15 2005)

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting link above, but the article gives the impression that Rabbi Saunders is the first Jewish chaplain to serve in the armed forces. This is quite untrue, there were a number of Jewish chaplains in both world wars who wore army uniform with the Jewish Star of David surmounted by a crown as their capbadge. In World War 1 three battalions of the The Royal Fusiliers, a London Regiment, formed the so called "Jewish legion". They wore a capbadge featuring the Menora 7 branched candlestick.

[Chugalug2]

Finally caught up with yesterday by watching the full coverage (as against highlights) of the Remembrance Sunday Ceremony at the Cenotaph:
BBC iPlayer - Remembrance Sunday: the Cenotaph: 2009 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ntlp4/Remembrance_Sunday_the_Cenotaph_2009/)
On the whole I thought that it was the usual polished Beeb job, but I have one grouse perhaps better expressed here than on the Remembrance sticky. There have always been various filmed inserts of particular veterans, widows, etc that neatly bridge pauses in the proceedings, and add rather than subtract to the whole. This year however one such piece, excellent in its own right, was timed to pretty well blank out the Youth Movements' march past at the rear of the column, and in particular those of the Cadet Forces. Now it might have just been an honest attempt to squeeze the most out of the 60 minutes available, but to my mind the BBC has form here and this needs watching. Could it be that "encouraging" the interest of the young in the Armed Forces is frowned upon not only by many State Schools but also by our very expensive Aunty? These Lads and Lasses would have put in a lot of preparation to take part, witness the smartness of their turnout and their marching. I have no doubt that was the case this year, but alas now will never know...

[teeteringhead]

Fear not Chugs .... there will plenty of cadets next year...

..... for some reason that escapes me for now, 2010 is being celebrated as the 150th Anniversary of the first cadets :confused: ... "Cadet 150" will be a brand to watch next year...

[Chugalug2]

teetering head:Fear not Chugs .... there will plenty of cadets next year...
I'm afraid that only adds to my worries TH! If the Beeb does indeed have an issue with Cadet Forces, then they will have an even bigger issue with a celebration of them! I have no real proof that they do, for Sunday's lack of coverage of them might indeed have simply been a production limitation, nothing more. It is just that I'm one of these conspiracy theory anoraks that sees an agenda in such things as far as the BBC is concerned. "Anti War" I suspect they call it, whereas those who are in, or support, the Armed Forces are clearly "Pro-War". Yes, I know its gibberish, but its the sort of Metro-Sexual gibberish that will shortly be transferred from London to their new Taj-Mahal in Manchester. Thank heavens, the poor dears are keeping hold of their London Weighting up there, so that standards can be maintained! Heigh-ho, not long now for my free TV license and then all will be sweetness and light!