Battle of Britian Film (1969)

[Malaysian28]

I dont know if this is the right place to post this, but anyways here goes.

I recently bought the Film Battle of Britian (1969 version), which is a brilliant film!
Out of Interest, A question I would like to know?
In order to film such aerial combats, wouldnt large areas of airspace need to be cornered off, so if it was filmed over the South Coast of England would airports such as Heathrow, Gatwick, Bournemouth, Southampton, etc be affected ?

I looked on Wikipedia and stated a few aerial shots where over rural Spain but most where over Southern England.

Malaysian28

[treadigraph]

Most of the airfield filming was at Duxford and North Weald, and some at Lympne?

Not sure where all the aerial stuff was filmed but you can certainly identify The Severn Sisters, Beachy Head and Eastbourne in some of the scenes.

[sidtheesexist]

I would be fairly sure that in 69 controlled airspace in the sth of england was nowhere near as extensive as it is now for obvious reasons. I know for a fact that quite a bit was filmed out of hawkinge which is right on the coast anyway - loads of open FIR. Apparently the weather was quite poor which caused major problems. Believe Group Captain Hamish Mahaddie (WW2 bomber pilot/pathfinder) was responsible for getting all the airframes and pilots in the right place at the right time - quite a challenge I'm led to believe.

[Malaysian28]

thanks for the info everyone, cleared up a few things.
Yeah I didnt think that Heathrow and like where that busy back then.:ugh:

[Double Zero]

I Hope it's OK to mention the magazine ( nothing to do with me ) but the mag' Flypast ' has covered the story of filming ' Battle of Britain ' quite extensively over recent issues.

Hamish Mahaddie initially reckoned he could source all necessary aircraft in the UK, but this proved optimistic.

The Spanish Air Force were extremely helpful with their ( Merlin powered ) HE111's, and a lot of the filming was done over Spain.

Incidentaly I recently met a chap who was involved in the filming, and operated a replica Hurricane, fitted with Jaguar engine for taxi-only use.

He reckons he got quite a long flight at an altitude of 8' out of it !

That 'aircraft', which looks very authentic, is now on display at Tangmere.

[kluge]

An article in October 2009 edition of Aeroplane Monthly details some newly discovered photos from the film. Well worth reading.

Unfortunately no new shots of Section Officer Harvey in night ops battle kit :(


Susannah York Film Actress - MirrorPrintStore (http://www.mirrorprintstore.co.uk/pictures_62289/susannah-york-film-actress.html)

[treadigraph]

Ah yes, Hawkinge rather than Lympne! Now a housing estate by the looks of it...

If you head north about five miles up the A260 towards Canterbury you come to Denton and the Jackdaw Inn, where Section Officer Harvey and Sqn Ldr Harvey have their first spat... does a nice meal there.

[POBJOY]

After the film was released a paper back book appeared that covered why and how the film was made.
I have a copy somewhere but it should be possible to find a copy from ABEBOOKS.
The RAF provided a large number of pilots for the fighters (suitably tail wheel checked).
The Spanish airforce also provided pilots for the H111 and Bouchons,with some Americans who had bought some for themselves.
This really got the warbird movement going when it prooved possible to reactivate "gate guardians" for use.
The main problem (as usual) was the lack of flying Hurricanes, PZ865,and LF363 were there again (having already done Angels one five,and Reach for the sky)Also a Canadian built machine came across (and then went to Scotland).
The camera ship (Mitchell) languished at Biggin for years,and it would be good if someone put together an article on the organising and operating of the "fighter force",under the auspices of one "G Elliot" i think.
One of the "full size Hurricane copies" has recently come to Cornwall,it looks pretty realistic from 20 feet.
A bunch of full size Hurricane models were made for "burning",and you can see the plywood panels quite clearly once the fabric has burnt away.
Your quite correct that the English weather played its hand in disrupting filming and extra scenes had to be be reshot in Spain.
Must have been a wonderful time to see all those merlins being serviced again.
PC

[JEM60]

I do remember, tho, that I was driving through Brentwood, I believe, when I heard a noise, looked up, and was astonished to see a Heinkel 111 [CASA] flying over. Quick double take, realised it was to do with the making of the film, but I was unaware that any had flown to U.K. for the making of the film.

[Blacksheep]

I was on a course at Rolls Royce Small Engine Division at Leavesden in '69 when the airfield was "strafed" by a bunch of 109s which were then attacked and hotly pusued by three Spitfires. Unlike today's airshow dogfights, this scrap looked very realistic. It doesn't appear in the movie, and Leavesden in '69 looked nothing like it did in 1940 so I guess it was a practice run for a proposed scene.

[aviate1138]

At Bovingdon we assembled 4 Mosquitoes for the Mirisch Pictures movie Mosquito Squadron. On the second day practically the entire force of Battle of Britain turned up! To see the BoB aircraft and the Mosquitoes together was quite a sight!
A divorce later and somehow all my slides got burned!

We moved the Mosquito Squadron to West Raynham for some peace and quiet and the North Norfolk coast at Holkham/Langham.

[GeeRam]

In order to film such aerial combats, wouldnt large areas of airspace need to be cornered off, so if it was filmed over the South Coast of England would airports such as Heathrow, Gatwick, Bournemouth, Southampton, etc be affected ?

I looked on Wikipedia and stated a few aerial shots where over rural Spain but most where over Southern England.

IIRC, for the UK filming, two main controlled airspace areas were set aside, a small one being for some of the white cliffs and over the channel for the shots out of Hawkinge, but the main area was actually in Cambidgeshire, hence the main base of ops being Duxford. I believe at least one RAF Canberra crew got a shock when they strayed into the NOTAM area and came out of cloud into the middle of a gaggle of 109’s :cool:
So, not really the south of England in the traditional sense, and therefore didn’t interfere with Heathrow, Gatwick etc at all.
The three airfields used were Duxford, North Weald and the sadly now gone Hawkinge which still was pretty much as it had been during 1940 having never had tarmac runways constructed.

The summer of 1968 in the UK was bad weather wise and so to get he filming in the can in time, one or maybe a couple (can’t remember exactly) of the Spits were ferried to Spain to enable the aerial filming to be completed.

[peter272]

Around that time as a Flt Sgt in a local ATC squadron we had a Wing parade at Bovingdon with a load of BofB aircraft on the airfield, including the Mitchell camera plane.

Was pretty spectacular.

[Krakatoa]

On the 15th. May 1968 I was detailed to take the AOC 19Gp from St Mawgan to Manston for his inspection of 22Sqdn Det at Manston
It must have been one of the few good days as I remember we sat on the grass under the wing having a picnic lunch with the in flight rations !
Suddenly the air was filled with the sound of Merlins and into the circuit came the 109's for a stream landing followed by the two Heinkel's and the B25. They had arrived from Jersey for customs clearance before departing for Duxford via the White Cliffs for some air to air shots. Still have the b/w pics.

[Gainesy]

Might be worth doing a search on this forum as a couple of years ago one of the BoBfilm Spit pilots was talking about it and had several amusing anecdotes.
(Despite being quite computer literate I and the Pprune Search Engine do not get on at all well).

[EGGP]

This website about Duxford has some good information about the making of the film.

battleofbritain (http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/place/gdg18/battleofbritain.shtml)

It is worth buying the 2 disc special edition DVD set because that has extra interviews and a documentary film about the making of the original movie.

EGGP

[Malaysian28]

Thanks for all the interesting info everyone.

Malaysian28.

[Mark22]

The summer of 1968 in the UK was bad weather wise and so to get he filming in the can in time, one or maybe a couple (can’t remember exactly) of the Spits were ferried to Spain to enable the aerial filming to be completed.

Latterly Southern France for the good weather methinks, via Cambridge.

A single Spitfire, MH415/G-AVDJ, was ferried out to Tablada, via Luton for aerial work in Spain at the very start of filming.

PeterA

[kevmusic]

From what I remember about the book of the film (I have it around somewhere) much of the aircraft sourcing was done by the great John Blake.

[crewmeal]

If anyone is interested play.com sell a blu-ray version and the quality is outstanding. I sold my original on ebay and now show this version off as a demo to those who are interested in HD and blu-ray. Many asked if the film was a recent release, and when told it is 40 years old they were shocked!!

[Shackman]

Was doing my multi engine course (on the Varsity) at Oakington whilst this was being filmed at Duxford, and a number of our instructors who had quite extensive Spitfire experience in their younger days were 'seconded' to the film.

We were actually night flying at the time but the nice high pressure system gave good day weather but foggy nights, so we would all go down to watch the action. The scene with the 109's and the French Chateau - a nice bit of 3ply on Southern side of Duxford was particularly impressive for all the watchers on the other side of the trees!

It was also quite a good time to be stooging around East Anglia 'cos you never quite knew what would appear on the wingtip! My final memory was the morning after our graduation a full beat up of the Oakington Mess by (I think) a 9 ship of Spitfires at what seemed like first light and roof height.

Happy Days

[FantomZorbin]

I was at Finningley at the time the film was made. A Vulcan OCU pilot strayed into the filming area and wanted to file an Airmiss on a ME109 but was persuaded otherwise!

Later, we were invited to the 'Premiere' in down-town Sheffield ... so, in true RAF style, turned up in full Mess Kit with ladies in evening dress all transported in a grotty, asthmatic Bedford coach!! It didn't quite cut the mustard when we pulled up outside the cinema for the full red-carpet treatment complete with flood lights and media!

It was a good night but we received a few odd stares when we cheered a Vulcan bimbling along in the background of one of the dogfight sequences! It's strange, but try as I might, I have yet to see it again on the TV re-runs.

[Malaysian28]

One of the best aerial bits.

YouTube - Battle of Britain - Climax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43zVRey2XEs)

[P.Pilcher]

Shortly after the film was released and at the age of about 22, I was taken to see it at a Coventry cinema by my Uncle. At one point in the film some German crew are bombing some part of the NE of England and are shot down. The goggles of the aircrew of the Heinkel immediately fill with "Tomato Sauce" to signify what has happened. At this point, my Uncle leaned over to me and said: "You didn't really see gore like that you know."
He should have known: After completing a tour of duty as a Whitley captain before his 19th. birthday, Sqn. Ldr. J.C. (Peter) Cairns was shot down on his second tour as a Wellington Captain when leaving the Dutch coast as a propellor failed. Several of his crew were killed but he managed to get it down on a Dutch enemy airfield. He was then incarcerated for the rest of the War in Stalagluft 3 and - I eventually discovered - was supposed to be the last man into the tunnel during the Great Escape.
He was the only relative I have had who got a full obituary in the Times, but then he is probably the reason that I find myself posting about flying matters on this website!

P.P.

[FBS]

"Incidentaly I recently met a chap who was involved in the filming, and operated a replica Hurricane, fitted with Jaguar engine for taxi-only use.

He reckons he got quite a long flight at an altitude of 8' out of it !"

Double Zero, someone was pulling your chain there, that replica was not even thought about when the film was made, it was completed in the late 1980s or early 1990s. It had nothing to do with the film and certainly didn't fly!

[l.garey]

On 31-10-68 I saw Spitfire AI-B landing at Abingdon. So was Abingdon used at all for the film?
I think the squadron codes were interchanged quite a bit during the making of the film, and even different codes on the two sides, so I am not sure which aircraft this really was. I am sure someone can say which one had that code that day.

Laurence

[JEM60]

Hi, KEVMUSIK. I always understood that the sourcing of the aircraft was down to Gp. Capt. Hamish MacHaddie, though I may be wrong.

[jimgriff]

The DVD is free with the Daily Mail today!

(oops! - edited to add- No it isn't- wrong film)- But WW2 films are free with the mail

[Double Zero]

FBS,

No, I have reason to believe the chap I spoke to is genuine, and he is still involved with a famous Spitfire today.

I know the replica you're thinking of, depicting the K5054 Spit' prototype, ( there are several, one of which I think I'm right in saying was a 4/5 scale fully flying example until a landing accident left the operators deciding to keep it grounded ).

I may be wrong about the Jaguar engine in the Hurricane replica, but it was that or something like it; the replica is very authentic until one looks very closely, when one can see it was never meant to actually fly.

DZ

[kevmusic]

I'll have a rummage and check up. :)

[FBS]

Er, Double Zero, I didn't mention a Spitfire replica, the K5054 replica at Tangmere was built by Aerofab in the 1990s. THe Hurricane replica was built in the Andover area slightly earlier and, as I said, had nothing to do with the film.

The 5054 replica you refer to has having a landing accident was Clive Du Cros's wooden, full size, Jaguar engined example that is now hauled around the country for events in camo finish.

Tangmere Hurricane replica/Battle of Britain film didn't happen

K5054 replicas irrelevant

There was an incident of one 'ground use only' Spitfire getting airborne during this film, but it was not made of wood and did not have a Jaguar engine

[Double Zero]

FBS,

It may be that I misunderstood the chap I was talking to, as we were standing next to the Hurricane replica at Tangmere when he told me; from what you say it may have been him in the ' ground use only ' Spitfire, but that was not the impression I got.

He has done a lot of flying in, and is still very closely associated with a famous Spitfire, and was wearing the rather unique tie to prove it, came out with far too much detail about some relevant points I happened to now about personally, so I don't think there was any B.S. involved, as I say maybe a misunderstanding on my part.

I certainly know that the K5054 replica at Tangmere is not a flyer in any way !

[Mark22]

It is certainly news to me that there was a replica Hurricane in the BoB film fitted with a significant engine.

There was however at least one replica Spitfire fitted with a small engine. It was fitted with a fully moulded GRP Hurricane three blade propeller, unlike the flat propellers fitted to the bulk of the replica Spitfires.

Its purpose was to spin the propeller and I would speculate that it met its demise when towed by hidden cable into a bomb crater/tanker etc.

PeterA

[FBS]

.: Tangmere Military Aviation Museum | Tangmere Sussex :. (http://www.tangmere-museum.org.uk/flash_page.php?table=museum_aircraft&id=13)

[M14_P]

aviate1138, now that must have been a sight. Incredible. Folks, some fantastic stories from where you were during filming. Keep em coming.

My favourite film of all time. The DVD I have comes with a 2nd disk, lots of old interviews from the producers and actors, great stuff and a fantastic film. Nothing, comes even close today. Pearl Harbor, just didn't have that special something that The Battle of Britain had, even though some of the aerial sequences were good, in my opinion.
The only other film I did really enjoy which was similar in terms of aerial sequences, was Tora! Tora! Tora!

cheers

[Evalu8ter]

There was a fantastic interview with Connie Edwards and one of the senior film crew on Radio 4 last month. Best bit came when Connie recalled the "management" claiming that the "fighting" wasn't "real" enough and getting frustrated at poor weather. One day the CAF and Spanish pilots were stacked before lunch as the weather at Duxford was awful, becoming pants. They all went to the pub and got pretty hoovered, when, at 3.30ish one of the filmcrew burst in and said that the weather had improved and they wanted to launch the wing. The next day the director was delighted, as the footage obtained was far more realistic. Connie recalled congratulating one of the Buchon pilots - who was shocked as he had no recollection of flying the previous day at all.....

Wouldn't happen nowadays would it!!

[treadigraph]

I wonder if that was when they strafed the "French Airfield" at Duxford. those low runs were... low!

Pearl Harbour was in my view unwatchable. The only good thing was it put some money into the coffers of several warbird operators - pity they didn't do more real air to air stuff rather than relying on that CGI rubbish.

[Double Zero]

FBS

I was until recently a volunteer at Tangmere, so am fairly familiar with the contents !

A lot of good stuff to see, including Neville Duke's reheated speed record Hunter, the speed record Meteor, Hunter F5, Lightning, good simulator/s, tons of artefacts which would take a good day or two to do justice ( that takes a lot of people by surprise ) and, static outside, Phantom, Sea Vixen, Sea Harrier FA2 ( not FRS2 as incorrectly labelled ), T-33 & Vampire.

Mondays are a good day to visit as some of the volunteers those days are very good,

A, Give oneself plenty of time if visiting,

B, Beware the museum has a shut down period over some winter months, so if travellng any distance call first.

DZ

[POBJOY]

Kevmusic, John Blake was involved with the film as an advisor on historical facts.
He certainly advised on the ground eqipment from the German side,and i remember him telling us at the Tiger Club how he fell out with someone on the film about the type of tanks being used.
He would have also had an opinion on the "aviaition" side as he was a keen enthusiast,an aerobatic judge,and contact at the Royal Aero Club,not to mention his "Farnborough" and " Biggin Hill" commentries.
He was also famous for his "napkin" drawings of the days events at the end of Tiger Club Airshows.
PC

[FBS]

"FBS

I was until recently a volunteer at Tangmere, so am fairly familiar with the contents !"

OK, so how do you still think a replica Hurricane made in the 1980s could have "flown" in a film made in the 1960s?

The basic mathematics is what I am struggling with. You seem adamant this 'Spitfire' pilot was telling the truth. Have you applied for any of that money people are holding for you in Nigerian bank accounts?

Hurricane rep at Tangmere did not fly to 8 feet in a fast taxi during the making of 'Battle of Britain'. Not at all, not never. No time. Spitfire pilot either telling porkies or winding you up.

[Double Zero]

FBS,

No, more likely a misunderstanding on my part; it was a fairly brief conversation, probably abbreviated by dealing with one of those nuisances known as customers, and after a career dealing with Harriers my hearing isn't too brilliant either !

This chap was certainly qualified to 'fly ' a Spit' and had done a lot, at least as passenger ( there's a clue for you ).

From the remarks above it sounds like he was the chap who got daylight under the wheels in the ' not intended for flight ' Spitfire in the film.

However, the possibilty does remain that despite his unique tie, and knowledge of the particular aircraft & family in question, I did hear correctly & he was indeed a B.S. Merchant...!

[FBS]

Haha

Who would EVER have thought there were any of those in vintage aviation?!!!!

It is like that great rule of thumb, if anyone ever tells you they were in the SAS you can usually be well assured they were not!

[kevmusic]

Pobjoy, thanks for that. Jem60, my mistake, you were quite correct! :)

[HarmoniousDragmaster]

Talk of a Spitfire unintentionally getting daylight under its wheels during the filming reminds me that in Michael Caines autobiography 'What's It All About' he describes just such an incident and how it terrified him, though he describes a 'real' one, not a replica.

[Mark22]

A perhaps a more credible explanation for this 'short flight' report might be that one of the seven Spitfires restored up to taxiing standard might have 'inadvertently' got airborne during one of the massed take of sequences.

Now I wonder which one that might have been? :)

We know that Robert Shaw managed to get SM411 up its nose at North Weald due to harsh braking.

PeterA

[OUAQUKGF Ops]

One sunny afternoon in 1968 I was foolishly attempting to further my desire to learn to fly. While practicing stalls to the north-east of Luton my instructor and I had a hell of a fright when we were suddenly confronted head-on by a flight of Spitfires.
It was almost a bigger fright than that which we had experienced when we slid off the top of some low cloud near Luton only to spy a Monarch Britannia about 100 feet immediately below us. Uncomfortably Happy Days!

[bobward]

I was at school in Great Yarmouth during 1968, when parts of the film were shot over the local area. One abiding memory was seeing six Spifires echeloned on either side of the B25 camera ship on sunny day.

The CAS 2-111's also made regular rumblings overhead - a great distraction when sitting in an exam room doing 'O' levels....

Forget Top Gun, and all the CGI stuff of today. This was real aircraft doing real flying. I doubt that we will ever see such a thing again.

When you look at the present parlous state of our forces think of this. Hamish Mahaddie probably had more fighters to command that the RAF has today. Maybe we should go back to flying Spit's and Hurri's again?

...and yes, I really am a boring old......

[falcon22]

My memory of the filming is being taken to Manston after school by my father to see the Casa and Buchon aircraft that spent at least one night there. Sadly I did not see them airborne but my father did help to prepare Hawkinge for the film so got to hear when the aircraft would be around. At that time it did not take much to put the airfield back to a 1940's appearance as it was kept in an unused but semi tidy state right up until the mid 1970's. If anyone visits today the new housing estate has taken away most of the atmosphere but a little bit of the history can be celebrated by visiting the nearby Cat and Custard Pot pub at nearby Paddlesworth which was used by the aircrew in the 1940's and has lots of aviation photos and large scale r/c models of Spitfire,Hurricane and Tiger Moth hanging from the ceiling.

[gruntie]

They're not mine so I won't post them, but while browsing thru Flickr came across this set which were taken during filming, here. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/sushidel/sets/1182766/)