SAR Cover Increasing? Safety over money for a change!

[On_Loan]

Hot on the heels of the Haddon-Cave report it appears that the decision to reduce the number of SAR bases to 24 has been cancelled, and in fact they will increase to 28 again. A long term plan or a panic response? Either way good news... :ok:

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Defence Policy and Business | UK's Search and Rescue network to be maintained (http://mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/UksSearchAndRescueNetworkToBeMaintained.htm)

[Cyberhacker]

I note the headline talks of 28 bases when the content talks of 28 crews

[Wensleydale]

When would HRH qualify as a SAR pilot? (There's a job for one of the extra crews then).

[Shackman]

What chance of the press getting it right when even our own MoD press office and Minister for the Armed Forces, Bill Rammell (where did he come from?) can't.

And what price the SAR-H contract?

[vecvechookattack]

I'm hoping like mad that CHC win the SAR H bid......Now that Air Rescue have withdrawn they should be in with a good chance

[Hilife]

I believe tomorrow is B&FO day, so whoever is selected as Preferred Bidder, we should know pretty soon.

[No Vote Joe]

Nice piece of spin as it doesn't give all the implications!

As far as I'm aware from a SAR-Bouy mate, they are dropping the daily second crew, so if they need a another aircraft (ie Boscastle), they'll need to ring around they guys off shift to see if they can cobble together something. Obviously, they won't be able to guaruntee one within an hour, if one at all!!! :uhoh:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

they are dropping the daily second crew, so if they need a another aircraft (ie Boscastle), they'll need to ring around they guys off shift to see if they can cobble together something


NVJ,

Your chum is right, for the time being, but this loss of 2nds is due to the reduction in numbers of crews and therefore will only last until crew numbers have increased again.

Your point about having to ring around to get a scratch crew is valid, but this is demonstrably a feasible way of generating a spare crew when needed: the Grayrigg train crash is just one example of people gladly rushing in to work at the drop of a hat, when they weren't on duty, to man a spare aircraft, and speaks volumes for the dedication and flexibility of the mil SAR crews. If you can find a scratch crew at 8.30pm on a Friday evening, you can get one any time!

[Donkey497]

SAR Cover Increasing? Safety over money for a change!

Not so sure......

Buried on the 8.pm. news on Radio Scotland last night was the news that the SAR cover out of Leuchars/managed by Kinloss will be restricted to daylight hours until the end of November, at the earliest. According to the report, this is in order to ensure that adequate cover is provided during daylight hours.
Apparently, this has also been the case since mid October.

Seems crazy to me, as the time that I'd want most SAR assets available is during the dark when it's harder to search and/or rescue. Also seems to smack of this Government's news management to let something like this come out at this time.

[hootandroar]

From memory don't a large majority of the call outs come after Mrs smith notices that Mr Smith hasn't come down off the hill or back from fishing, normally at the end of the day?

Even when the extra crews do come on line will there be any serviceable cabs to fly in? In the mean time it still means having crews driving up and down the country and getting mucked about by parenting agreements that won't give an MT driver or car to try and help reduce the fatigue. :ugh:

[Cabe LeCutter]

Oh did someone mention SAR from Leuchars. Been a long time since I did shift there on good old Walter. Another one of the great SAR flights closed. But there again that is progress for you:cool::cool:

Heads down, look out for the flack

[[email protected]]

Not a very well written piece since it keeps mixing up the number of crews and the number of bases.

To clarify - the RAF have 6 SAR flights, the RN 2 and the MCA 4. This announcement only affects the RAF flights.

The RAF SARF cannot maintain 24/7 cover and man the Falklands with 24 crews which we all knew but some Air Ranks didn't believe and so, after trying to take us down to 24 from the 28 we had, we are being taken back up to 28 so the resources match the task (tricky concept that).

Because we were actually undermanned on rearcrew in the first place, reducing crews further has seen the need to bus winchmen and radops around the country to plug gaps in the shift plots of flights who lave lost crews to the Falklands.


The resulting fatigue levels have been assessed as a Flight safety hazard by the SARf Cdr so until the manning is back up to full strength, whichever flight loses a crew to the Falklands will go down to 12 hour shifts with the intention that no two adjacent flights eg Boulmer and Leconfield, are on 12 hours at the same time. A new crew goes every 3 weeks to the Falklands and the detachment is 6 weeks.

At the moment Lossiemouth and Wattisham are on 12 hour days because their crews are in the FI.

This 12 hour manning is temporary and nothing to do with the SARH planned reduction in SAR service post 2012 which will see Portland, Chivenor and Boulmer reduced to 12 hour cover PERMANENTLY in order to save the contractors money.

The concept of SARH was to provide no less capable a service which sits at odds with cutting 3 flights down to 12 hours I am sure someone somewhere is 'managing the risk' - well right up to the point where lives are lost because the cover wasn't there when it was needed.

One other point of fact - at Chivenor, a third of our rescues are at night and I suspect the same is true for most SAR flights. Who will pick up the slack or is it postcode lottery time for SAR now?

The standard answer is that faster helicopters allow medium risk areas to be reached within the hour which, on the face of it, seems obvious but that is only true if you count flying time. If you accept that RS45 means exactly that then your superfast new helicopter has only 15 mins flying time to make the medium risk area from the time of the CALLOUT, not the time of the takeoff.

This is where the 1 hour fudge is applied - the intent of the 1 hour to medium risk areas is time from callout but some have used time of takeoff instead to justify fewer bases and less cost. Unfortunately, if they want to go down that road you could cut the number of bases even further since with a 150 kt helo you only need 150nm between flights.

Fewer helicopters means less flexibility and almost no surge/concurrent ops capability - this is where the great PFI that is SARH is leading us and it stinks.

[onevan]

Crab

As the 'contractors' have to supply a service that fufils the ITT, surely it must be the IPT changing the goal posts based on what the govt is willing to pay for. :{


If 24 hr cover is wanted at all bases I am sure that service can be provided. :ok:

[[email protected]]

onevan - the bidders put pressure on the IPT to move the goal posts because they could not make any profit by meeting the actual ITT - the Bristows/Westlands group pulled out because they couldn't make a profit out of what was being asked for. Now the goalposts have been moved I would think they are V pi88ed off as trhey could possibly have stayed in the competition.

So instead of going back to the drawing board and having to issue a new ITT with a new budget, the original terms have been watered down to save money - the Falklands is not now included in the main bid and 3 flights are to go to 12 hour manning, not to give any increase in (or even match) current capability but simply to save cash.

Now we have 2 bidders left and a decision to be made by only a select few of the IPT (some of whom seem to have a distinct bias) - we will inevitably get the cheapest bidder:{

Someone brave should call a halt to this process before we condemn the British public to a profit-driven service that will not match what currently exists.

[vecvechookattack]

Why will it not meet what we currently have?

[No Vote Joe]

NVJ,

Your chum is right, for the time being, but this loss of 2nds is due to the reduction in numbers of crews and therefore will only last until crew numbers have increased again.


Are you sure? It's not what he told me, with the reason being rather sensitive!!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Why will it not meet what we currently have?


Because there will only be one aircraft at each base, and because 3 of those bases will only be manned for 12 hours a day. It also appears very likely that SAR-H will cost rather more than the existing set-up - though exact comparison is impossible as the SAR-H process has pointedly refused to evaluate the cost of what we currently have.


Are you sure?


No, but my earlier post was to the best of my knowledge - apologies if it turns out that I'm wrong.

[[email protected]]

The loss of 2nds is permanent because we can't run 2nds and comply with the EU WTD.

The 12-hour cover for flights whilst they have a crew in the FI is temporary and will cease once manning levels are back (or up) to normal.

Vec - present requirement is to make all medium risk areas within 1 hour. Given RS 45 at night it would take 1hr 15 to get from Culdrose to Chivenor and 1 hr 37 to get from Valley to Chivenor at 150 kts. Given that a lot of our jobs are in S Wales (Brecons etc) that increases the time to get on scene from Culdrose and decreases it from Valley and comes nowhere near the 1 hour stated requirement.

All the bluff about fewer but faster helos giving equal coverage is guff because it only considers flying time not callout time.

Same capability my a&se:{

[green granite]

The loss of 2nds is permanent because we can't run 2nds and comply with the EU WTD.

:confused: To comply with the EU WTD one needs 4 crews for 24/7 coverage, therefore one needs 8 crews to have permanent 2nd helio coverage. Or did you mean we cant afford it?

[vecvechookattack]

To comply with the EU WTD one needs 4 crews for 24/7 coverage, therefore one needs 8 crews to have permanent 2nd helio coverage. Or did you mean we cant afford it

Your Maths isn't very good Shipmate..... If you need 4 crews to man 1 aircraft then you need 5 cxrews to man 2 aircraft.

If an RAF crew is a crew of 4 (2 Pilots, Crewman and winch Op) then by your reckoning you would need 32 people to man 2 aircraft? If 1 aircraft is the Duty and the other is the Standby that means you would have 4 people on Watch and 28 people Off watch...? That would never pass the Daily Mirror test.

I may be mistake but I think that Gannet SAR flight (The UK's busiest SAR Flight) have 2 Aircraft and 4 crews....sometimes 3 1/2 crews.

[Donna K Babbs]

I may be mistake but I think that Gannet SAR flight (The UK's busiest SAR Flight) have 2 Aircraft and 4 crews....sometimes 3 1/2 crews

Sometimes significantly less than that!

The whole plan seems to be based on historical statistics. Generally speaking, Chivenor gets a reasonable number of Med-Transfers during the night, together with a few searches, but not many immediate life saving jobs. However, they do get the rare high profile long range night rescues and major incidents.

The long range rescues will go to Culdrose when the fleet it unified and I think the major incidents will be taken on risk.

[vecvechookattack]

I think that you are absolutely right.

I have good friends who work for Portland and Lee SAR and they all agree that it is perfectly possible to run a SAR flight with one aircraft. The Lee aircraft has a 100% servicability rate this year and last year it was down for 90 minutes...throughout the entire year....they achieve all of that with either 1 or maybe 2 engineers. If you go to Portland SAR flight tomorrow there will be 5/6 people there....thats it. If you go to 771 at Culdrose tomorrow there will be close to 100 people there (Unfair comparison I know but it makes the stats look good).

[[email protected]]

Vec - their aircraft is brand new, doesn't do as many hours and hasn't been available for night wet winching due to the lack of suitable lighting and uncleared autopilot modes - not exactly the shining example of how it should be done. Your friends will also doubtless tell you what an awful working environment the contractors have provided with everything focussed on profit by reducing costs.

Gannet haven't had a second standby for a long while because they are undermanned (primarily rearcrew I believe) and, as yet, they haven't been required to comply with the EU WTD as the military were seeking exemptions - none given!

5.7 crews is what I believe is the actual figure for 1 aircraft on 24/7 SAR cover as required by our EU masters.

Donna - when Culdrose are on a long ranger at night post SARH, there will be no SAR cover for the whole of the SW - the nearest flights will be Valley or Lee - you might be happy to take that at risk but it ignores the very high probability that lives will be lost. I guess you are saying that searching for people in trouble isn't important then, nor is taking critically ill people to hospital - only immediate lifesaving counts, perleease:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

when Culdrose are on a long ranger at night post SARH, there will be no SAR cover for the whole of the SW - the nearest flights will be Valley or Lee - you might be happy to take that at risk but it ignores the very high probability that lives will be lost. I guess you are saying that searching for people in trouble isn't important then, nor is taking critically ill people to hospital - only immediate lifesaving counts, perleease

You will never be able to provide a service which covers everywhere at all times. The primary driver with this project has to be cost not lives. I would love to be able to afford a car which had 50 air bags in it so that it protects my family should the worse happen...but I can't afford it and so I take it on risk that the car with 4 air bags will have to suffice.

[sargs]

Vec, even with your usual jaundiced outlook, that posting has to take the biscuit. The whole purpose of an organisation set up to save life is......wait for it..... to save life. If it was a matter of cost, I can think of an immediate solution to save the entire cost of the project, as I'm sure you could. By the way, if you're prepared to take the risk with 4 airbags, I've had another brainwave - zero airbags should save you even more. Of course if you, like me, value your life and those of your loved ones, perhaps you should just bite the bullet and invest?

[[email protected]]

Genius vec - absolute genius:ugh:



I know, lets get rid of all the ambulances - that will save the NHS a fortune and we'll let sick people make their own way to hospital.

[vecvechookattack]

You are of course absolutely correct and I apologise for getting it wrong. Lives are much more important. It was a mistake on my part and for that I can only offer my most humble apologies.

[sapper]

crab
This 12 hour manning is temporary and nothing to do with the SARH planned reduction in SAR service post 2012 which will see Portland, Chivenor and Boulmer reduced to 12 hour cover PERMANENTLY in order to save the contractors money.Portland has always been 12 hr cover, not as you suggest above, reducing to 12hr.

spr

[vecvechookattack]

Portland has always been 12 hr cover, not as you suggest above, reducing to 12hr

Not so my friend. It used to be SR-SS.

[[email protected]]

Sapper - yes it will retain its 12 hour status post 2012 which still leaves the rather bizarre situation where one flight (Lee) has to cover the whole of the Channel from Dover to Plymouth at night if Chiv is down to 12 hour cover.

[extpwron]

Did the reduced manning affect the number assets the SARF was able to field in Cumbria last night?
Would it be any different post SARH?
Fingers crossed for the missing Police Officer.

[Spanish Waltzer]

According to BBC news website there were 5 RAF sea kings involved. Assuming the reports to be accurate (and I'm sure crab@ will happily inform us once he has saved everyone :ok:) then that is an excellent response from an organisation that is suffering from reduced manpower and I believe is not operating second standby crews at present either.

I believe too that the RAF Valley SAR helo is on reduced operating hours at the moment with a crew away in the Falklands so to get 5 aircraft there from the other bases is good going.

As an aside did the RN SAR helo from Prestwick get involved too? There seems no mention of it but of course the press may have got it slightly wrong and included it as a RAF one ;)

[Gainesy]

that is an excellent response from an organisation that is suffering from reduced manpower

It is indeed , the boys (and girls?) have pulled it off again, however I'm afraid the Govt will use this as proof positive that it's reduced manning idea works, to the future detrement of the SAR Force.

I look forward to Crab's views.

[arandcee]

Per SARF Commander on BBC News SKs were sent from Valley, Leconfield, Boulmer and Chivenor. Hmm, aren't two of those slated to go to 12 hrs?!

Good work guys and girls.

[StuartP]

As an aside did the RN SAR helo from Prestwick get involved too? There seems no mention of it but of course the press may have got it slightly wrong and included it as a RAF one

BBC Scottish news pages are reporting it rescued someone from a car near Kelso so they've been busy too. :ok:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Hmm, aren't two of those slated to go to 12 hrs?!


Indeed so. Therefore, to get 5 helos to Cumbria at night under SAR-H, you'd have to use Valley, Prestwick, Leconfield, Wattisham and Lossiemouth - leaving no available helicopter between the English Channel and the Outer Hebrides! There's progress for you...

It's a good thing that major flooding events are so rare these days:ugh:

[[email protected]]

Yes let's see the SARH blueprint applied to this situation!!!!!

But it's OK, the powers that be keep chanting the same mantra about how newer, faster helicopters mean you can provide the same cover with fewer assets - and it's bollocks - the fastest helicopter in the world can't be in two places at once and when an asset with a huge operational area is tasked, it leaves an even huger area with no cover.

[vecvechookattack]

Helicopter rescue teams notch up a record 400 missions - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article6943721.ece?)

Good work chaps (and Lady)

[Spanish Waltzer]

A geniune question as I am not trying to detract from the great work done by the crews at Gannet but could someone in the know give a break down of how many of those 400 'missions' were hospital transfers or medical evacuations from the Islands to mainland hospitals?

Thank you.

SW

ps Is the new Navy rank of Aircrewman Corporal the start of SAR-H harmonisation?? :ok::E

[vecvechookattack]

how many of those 400 'missions' were hospital transfers or medical evacuations from the Islands to mainland hospitals?

Most of them


Is the new Navy rank of Aircrewman Corporal the start of SAR-H harmonisation??

No, He is a Bootneck.

[pasptoo]

Suggest, Petty Officer or Chief Petty Officer Aircrewman?

[scottishbeefer]

Get into your DASA stats lads - GANNET does indeed do a fair chunk of med txfrs, it comes from being close to the Scottish Retrieval Service (Doc's who go out to stabilise and bring back patients from the outlying hospitals) based out of the Bond huts at the SECC in Glasgow. However, Vec's statement that "most" of GANNET' jobs are txfrs is utter sh*te.

Most jobs are pukka rescues, mainly in the mountains, often at night. For eg, last Saturday the boys did 3 jobs - at The Cobbler (day), Glen Coe and Glen Pean (20nm N Fort Bill) (both night). The outfit didn't get 3 AFC's, a QGM and 2 QCBA's this year for doing med txfrs.

It's certainly not a competition, but since the issue has been raised - GANNET does the most rescues/medrescues of any SAR unit - period, just ask your friendly DASA stat man to show the facts to you, and see how they compare with our friends and neighbours in the yellow cabs. We prefer quality to quantity but I'm afraid the PR folks sometimes launch the story to get a few headlines regardless. I'm sure Dave Webster would agree.

Facts Vec, facts. Give 'em a try next time you post - I might take you seriously.

Oh, and the "Bootneck" is a Chief Petty Officer Aircrewman - same rank as a Flt Sgt. Good spot on the beard, by all but our resident SAR "expert" Vec.

SB

[vecvechookattack]

Sorry, I'll check next time. Mind you I have done a fair bit of SAR work.

I'm a little unsure why you are defending Med transfers in such an aggressive manner. Medical transfers are something that Debs and Flory take very seriously and are quite rightly proud of. By you defending them in such a manner it seems that you are embarrassed or feel shame by them. You have no need to be ashamed of them though so please don't be scared to be proud of them….

The last time I did a job up at Gannet it was a med transfer of a seriously ill lady from Bute to Glasgow....all done on Goggs in poor weather and with a requirement to fly under the bridge to boot.... Not for the faint hearted. So I feel that you have no need to defend Med transfers as if they are not as punchy as cliff / Mountain rescues....They have equal status.

[scottishbeefer]

Vec

Thank you for endorsing our flying. We'll all sleep better now, knowing we don't need to hang our heads in shame. Keep up the good work.

SB

[watchyourbaK]

Search-and-rescue helicopter £5bn PFI deal nears take off - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/defence/6928410/Search-and-rescue-helicopter-5bn-PFI-deal-nears-take-off.html)

This is news to me, as last time i heard (from some people at Dartmouth) was that the navy were putting pilots direct into the SAR stream, seems a bit strange as they apparently hav'nt done that for years so it seemed the PFI was'nt going to happen. Now it is....

Also reduction in helicoper capacity by a considerable margin meaning less cabs in a major incident ect. But i imagine these cabs being new will have a far higher servacibilty rate so maybe offsetting this issue.

any views?

[althenick]

Please forgive my ignorance but can anyone tell me how long this PFI contract lasts. It seems like a hell of a lot of dosh for 25-30 cabs + crews. :confused:

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

these cabs being new will have a far higher servacibilty rate


...but an aircraft which doesn't exist will have lower serviceability than a Sea King which may or may not be available at a given time, so a bigger fleet (and crucially, more crews) is preferable. The Sea King still does surprisingly well in terms of serviceability, given its age and complexity, and the SAR Force has been able to send a number of aircraft to all the major incidents of recent years when multipole aircraft were required.

However, for full discussion of all the issues relating to SAR-H, it's probably best to look at the 'SAR-H to go?' thread on Rotorheads rather than start the Hamster Wheel afresh on this thread.

[sox6]

Any truth in the rumour I have heard that the RAF were unable to transport paramedics to man with a "serious medical condition" on Holly Is because Boulmer had "run-out of flying hours"?

The medics went by lifeboat I was told but the casulty was not in a condition to be transported by boat so had to wait 4 hours until the tide went out and could be moved by vehicle.

[[email protected]]

Sox, because of the undermanning of the RAFSARforce (thanks to MoD ignorance) when a flight has a crew in the Falklands (as Boulmer does at the moment), they will only operate on a 12 hour per day basis.

I suspect that this is what has happened in this case.

There are lots of 'serious medical conditions' that are not immediately life threatening - if the casualty was that critical, a SAR helicopter from a different flight would have been tasked.

Due to cost-cutting in the SARH contract, Boulmer are supposed to operate 12 hours per day permanently so the locals had better get used to it.

[sox6]

Thanks for the helpful answer.

Who descides if another aircraft is tasked, the medics, ambulance control or the RCC?

[vecvechookattack]

That depends on what the task is.... who is paying for it and which asset is the nearest.

If its a Military asset (Ship / Aircraft or MRT) then the RCC will task it, although certain coastguard units may task the SAR unit directly and in lifesaving emergencies the Coastguard may and often do go straight to the SAR asset.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It could be the case that Boulmer were on a different job - they have had several a day for the last week or so. If this is true, and the idea that the aircraft was out of flying hours is simply rumour, I wonder who started spreading it - it wouldn't be the first time that the mil SAR units have been the victims of lies spread by competitors...

[vecvechookattack]

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | HMS Gannet achieves record number of Search and Rescue sorties (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/HmsGannetAchievesRecordNumberOfSearchAndRescueSorties.htm)