Practice interceptions of civil aircraft

[galleypower]

Hi all,
The paragraphs say, practice interceptions should not be undertaken.
What are the exemptions? Aircraft with no SLF?
Under what circumstances would a practice interception of civil aircraft be possible? Thanks.

[TheOptimist]

Why would you need to practise with any plane outside the RAF?

For large aircraft interception a C130 would suffice, and for small aircraft a grob tutor would suffice. I dno't see why you'd ever need to practise on a civilian aircraft, unless it's agreed before the flight for a pilot flying from cranwell aviation school etc.

[galleypower]

That subject comes up quite regularly among airline pilots ;-)
Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible, unless you don't mind to be on youtube next day. But heard the other day that in France such interceptions still take place after the ok from the airliner pilot is received. But I have my doubts...Thought you guys might know the rules. :)

[Wrathmonk]

a C130 would suffice

Like we have loads of those available ....

[ORAC]

Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s.

[TheOptimist]

You get my point though Wrathmonk, admittedly the C130 wasn't a great choice, I just happened to be reading about them at the time.

[BEagle]

Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s

I don't think that there can be many ex-Wattisham fighter crews who haven't intercepted the 'Norwich flier' on a few occasions!

I don't think that AirUK ever complained though. But a chum and I were once flying back from Turnhoos to Norwich in an elderly AirUK F27 - only to be intercepted by an F4 from our own squadron.....:\

Night 'Profit' often jammed the Neatishead Fighter Controller, so a few airliners found themselves being intercepted on such occasions!

[Pure Pursuit]

We don't do it at all. The only civvy a/c pinged are the Cobham guys.

We did intercept a few Virgin a/c after 9/11. It was sanctioned by Mr Branson & proved to be a good learning tool. Interestingly, the a/c intercepted had no passengers onboard & were being flow specifically for the training scenario.

It was quite funny watching the F3 do it's best to turn with a 747 at high altitude... Couldn't help but suspect that the Virgin crew knew exactly what they were doing. Probably ex Tonka drivers!!

[Lightning Mate]

"Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s"

To the best of my knowledge, embellished flight plans are still acceptable within ICAO.

[gashman]

aren't the flights down to MPA in a civi-registered ac? Pretty sure they get a welcoming intercept as they approach the Islands. I've certainly been up close to an a330 down there.

[Geehovah]

I intercepted Concorde in the 70s

And the BA 747s enjoyed the protection going into Stanley in the early 80s:ok:

[The B Word]

You could always do an intercept on a civvy if you're doing Targets of Opportunity (TOO), just be sure to break off as soon as you VID that its a civvy and not a mil jet!!!

Oddly enough, most of the time I have done this the civvy crew haven't even noticed - too busy looking at their laptops...now that would never happen would it? :E

Lawmakers seek to ban laptops, other devices in cockpits after airliner incident -- chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-cockpit-laptops,0,7940568.story)

The B Word

[Ali Barber]

Ditto Geehova. Tried for a guns solution on Concorde but one burner didn't light in the turn.

Maybe not quite civvie, but the first Tornado GR formation delivered to Saudi (via noght stop in Akrotiri) came close to being shot down for real by Lightnings on alert in Cyprus against a possible Libyan attack. They apparently had embellish on their flight plan but were in desert camouflage, swing wing and had green markings - and were enjoying trying to avoid the Historic Flight QRA that went up against them. Nobody told QRA it was practise!

[Mike Read]

Contact the Jever Steam Laundry for details but in the fifties it was reported that the battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters) and brought home cine and also a story went around of a Comet carrying HM being filmed as a "target of opportunity".

Happy days!

[SirToppamHat]

I am sure someone will quote the exact words, but whilst PIs on civil ac are 'prohibited intercepts', but the more recent phrase included the addition of "... unless part of a pre-briefed exercise".

The change was brought in following the introduction of civil ac for target facilities and EW exercises.

There was always some discussion about what was meant by 'pre-briefed', my personal interpretation (and that generally accepted in the ground at least) was that the intercept had to be arranged before flight.

Embellished status for civil ac is not in itself sufficient to make them suitable targets (in the UK ADR anyway).

I may be a couple of years out of date, so will gladly bow to anyone with more recent info.

STH

[lights to minimum]

May have been me flying the F27 which incidentally had the handling characteristics of a supermarket trolley - ie a mind of its own. We had no autopilot's in those days - they were removed to save weight and the cost of maintainance. Flying S&L for long periods could be a bore and as most of the controllers we spoke to were Mil and they recognised some of our voices we were frequently "embellished" by Frightenings and F4s.
I remember one occasion returning to Norwich from AMS two F4s (one piloted by an old mate whose name sounded as if he were one of my siblings) sat on my wingtips as I approached Rackheath (OM RW27 NWI) at 224kts (balls out!). As was normal pax were briefed and had noses to the windows. First officer looks up from check list/paperwork etc, spots F4's and says f:mad:k me do you think those b:mad:s have seen us. F4s depart fowards in full burner circling F27 and climbing rapidly and noisily above us.
Great days - was you one of em Beags:ok:

[Lightning Mate]

Geehovah,

"I intercepted Concorde in the 70s"

In what may I ask?

LM :)

[effects]

"battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters)"

My Dad was a sumpy on 71 Sqn,Sabres, at the time, a 4 ship landed asked for a very quick TR and launched to intercept Kruschev. Later in the day a note was put up thanking the lads for the quick TRs, note removed shortly after as a potential political storm was brewing!

[Wader2]

LM, The MOD hired Concorde from BAC (IIRC) for a supersonic intercept practice. It flew a circuit around the North Sea at M 2.0 as a target for each fighter wing in turn. It may even have been late 60s as I recall the Notam and exercise instruction but from 1970 I was overseas.

This was also the time of 'big' exercises like Lime Jug, the first Highwood, Bersatu Pardu. We had a budget for proper training.

[ComJam]

Can we still put "Embellish" on the flight plan?

I'd be happy if you guys would like to use us for the practice (Cobham Beech 200 Flight Checker) :)

[Lightning Mate]

Wader 2,

"We had a budget for proper training"

Did we ever!

[ORAC]

Didn't say it didn't happen, it did (frequently), but it was always unofficial and against the rules. It was prohibited by regulations and if anything had ever gone wrong a CM would have followed.

In the 70/80s BA used to fly round trip charity flights for kids on weekends around Xmas and ask to be intercepted, and we'd oblige. "No Santa on his sleigh kids, but if you look out the left hand window you'll see an RAF F4..."

The Norwich Flier got intercepted regularily, as stated, as did puddle jumpers for crossing the North Sea in the Great yarmouth area. WT had to man the CAP down there even though there were never any targets. So, if you saw a low, slow contact it was, "intercept with caution" (It'a civvie, don't scare him). As I recall one intercept, where the crew misjudged their closing speed, the call was, "low, slow, yellow, cesssnnnnnaaa" as they pulled about 9G to miss him.

You'd also "intercept" airways traffic by coordinating and maintaining a 1000ft below, at least when the aircraft was squawking Mode C. I recall one such intercept with a Shar.

SHar: "Visual"

Controller: "Roger, should be a SAS DC9".

SHar: "No, this is a XXX 737, and there's a woman in a yellow dress in the last row waving at me."

The most flak I ever saw was when the LU QRA was holding north of Saxa (usual Bear Fs that didn't penetrate) and was intercepting the atlantic traffic to pass the time. (At the time Saxa parked the labels on RAPDS and the controller and crew did intercepts whilst the DC in the Bunker, and any 2*s in their offices were unaware) When he got on the ground the bright spark of a Nav "claimed" a Korean Air 747 in the INTSUM to SACEUR. This was a couple of months after the Russians had shot one down. What a fun day that turned out to be**....

So:

Rule 1: Intercepts on Civil aircraft are prohibited.
Rule 2: If I ever intercepted one, I didn't know it was a civilian.**
Rule 3. If I did know it was a civilian, my aircraft never got closer than +/- 1000/2000 ft.
Rule 4: I deny everything.

(**The explanation given and, and I don't know how anyone up the ladder kept a straight face, was that the 747 was off the expected flight plan track and they thought it might be one of the Bears...)

[Geehovah]

Lightning Mate

"I intercepted Concorde in the 70s"

In what may I ask?

As tasked: with a Sparrow sim plug:ok: The Lightning flew higher but the F4 had a missile that could snap up. In parameters and verified.

G-AXDN ran a round UK profile for training purposes

Concorde at 65k and one heck of a pull from a long way out. About the longest shot I took in the 70s IIRC

Or did I misunderstand the term "interception" in the title of the thread?

[Rigga]

The Parisian interceptor is Police Squirrel Helicopter (cant remember the Military name for it!) with a Marksman (and a big gun!) and an electric signpost hanging under the Skids!

[27mm]

Nice one, Geehovah, but with the greatest of respect, it should be "We intercepted Concorde..." if you get my drift.

[Geehovah]

I can live with that. Two seat through and through.

It was hard to do it alone in an F4. Switches and gauges in all the wrong places:ok:

[Canadian Break]

Not entirely correct. I was on duty at 280SU that night (early morning in fact) ans we didn't get any flight plan information at all. Therefore it was a real scramble as far as we were concerned too.:ugh:

[chopper2004]

"The Parisian interceptor is Police Squirrel Helicopter (cant remember the Military name for it!) with a Marksman (and a big gun!) and an electric signpost hanging under the Skids!"

Rigga,
I thought that was the Armee de l' Air squadron with AS-355N Fennec at Villacoublay, EH 03.067 that patrols the Parisian airspace :ok:

[Fortissimo]

Somewhere East of Leuchars, early 80s, dusk, young Fortissimo in F4, playmate gone home, burning off fuel with some practice whifferdills:

(Buchan) "C/S blah blah, Jetstream, 4 POB, blah..."

YF to trusty nav: "That's near us, isn't it?"

TN: "Yep. (Pause...) Contact 20 right, 5 up, 12 miles..."

YF: "Let's VID..."

Visual, confirms twin type at 4 miles, YF opts to try fun lag-roll thing, lights orange bits at back of F4 and passes inverted 200ft or so over top of Jetstream to impress ME student filth before pushing off to Leuchars.

Buchan: "From the Bandeirante pilot, thanks very much, his passengers enjoyed it!"

TN: "Well it looked like a Jetstream to me..." :O

[Union Jack]

The MOD hired Concorde from BAC (IIRC) for a supersonic intercept practice. It flew a circuit around the North Sea at M 2.0 as a target for each fighter wing in turn. It may even have been late 60s as I recall the Notam and exercise instruction but from 1970 I was overseas.

Interesting relative to first supersonic flight in Oct 69 which, curiously enough, was the month I first saw one whilst on leave in SW France.:)

Jack

[wiggy]

Well Concorde was certainly used a a target on the bigger Adex's in the early 80's..and yes, it was certainly possible for an F-4 to get a validated Sparrow/Skyflash "kill" against it...

[Geehovah]

I was on the other Sqn at that time Wiggy:)

[nunquamparatus]

Watched 2 UKTORF3 decide to 'embellish' Concorde in the Bristol Channel (as she was starting her run) - all cleared through the Sector Chief - can't remember what the coordination was, not that it mattered. A better demonstration of Target Lead I have never seen since!

On the more recent side 2 FA2 Sea Harriers were asked to intercept an airliner a week or so post 9/11 over Southern UK. They were on a training flight and London Mil asked if they could close said airliner. No dramas, get a position (suspect Lon Mil didn't have a Bullseye in force), find it on radar, close it....say, how close do you want us to get? "How close can you get?" Needless to say the pilots were a little surprised to see two pointy grey things appearing from under the nose!

Nice to see that the next day, the papers reported that 2 RAF Harriers had intercepted an airliner..........:ugh:

Not at FL350 and M0.85 they sodding didn't!

[John R81]

Is there any facility for civil aircraft - CPL / PPL to "volunteer" as fodder for practice intercepts?

Might be interesting for mil crew to try intercepting a helicopter in the Scottish glens, for example.

John

[Gainesy]

You want to be intercepted by a fastjet, in a Robbo?:ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

They make good strafe targets;)!

[Green Flash]

Hurtle past the Robbo with the heaters on and melt it?!:}

[brit bus driver]

Aren't they civilian aircraft? Surely a civil aircraft would be one that says please and thank you...

Now, where did I leave that coat...

:8

[John R81]

Practice Intercepting or simply destroying my pride and joy?....

Suppose you wanted to intercept and divert a 'copter to an airfield. Can you fly that slow in a fast jet (Harrier excepted, of course)? In the Scottish glens?

Just thought it would be interesting but never having been in (let alone driven) a Mil jet I could be wasting your time with my silly questions. If so, I am sorry. I think my home gets "bombed" on a regular basis (fantastic to watch) and I am very happy for that to continue. If there is no (or little) risk to me or you I would be happy to provide occasional airborn slow-moving (by your standards) target at 500 ft.

John

[Gainesy]

If a FJ in a for real situation wanted to remove you he'd likely overfly you at warp snot and dismantle your steed, probably the last thing you'd see would be the blades disappearing out of your peripheral vision.

Scenario two, you'd be excellent sport, well for about 20sec, for some helo door gunner or an Apache.

I really doubt anybody would take up your offer, you can just see the headlines.

[John R81]

Fair enough - silly offer and I apologise

John

[skydriller]

As Chopper2004 says, the French have several Armee de l'air Fennecs with machine guns and door sniper based in various locations specifically for intercepting GA types. My Aeroclub was invited to a familiarization day with the guys based in Bordeaux/Cazeaux a couple of years ago, and they often play in our local area. Aeroclub PPLs have on occasion been asked if we would mind being intercepted when out on a local jolly and once they are on your wingtip, have even been asked if we would mind manouvering away to try to outrun them etc.

Its all very well saying that a FJ can "burn" a light chopper or spam can, but how does the RAF go about intercepting someone in a PA28 flying at 100kts for a visual ID? What is the minimum speed you can manouver at in an F3 or EF to go alongside someone so the PPL doesnt **** themselves as you wizz past? Or would you use something like a Tucano? Does the RAF train for this even?

Regards, SD..

[frodo_monkey]

Trains yes, and even puts it into practice occasionally...

Jet guides stricken plane to safety - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1514326/Jet-guides-stricken-plane-to-safety.html)

[Gainesy]

No need to apologise for playing "What if?", John.

Try and visit a Chinook outfit next time they visit Scotland and walk under a hovering one.

[John R81]

That would be dumb!

[GeeRam]

We did intercept a few Virgin a/c after 9/11. It was sanctioned by Mr Branson & proved to be a good learning tool. Interestingly, the a/c intercepted had no passengers onboard & were being flow specifically for the training scenario.

It was quite funny watching the F3 do it's best to turn with a 747 at high altitude... Couldn't help but suspect that the Virgin crew knew exactly what they were doing. Probably ex Tonka drivers!!

Or ex-Lightning.....:ok:
Around that time there was one Virgin 747 driver who was ex-11 Sqn and followed that with a F-15 exch tour.

[skydriller]

Trains yes, and even puts it into practice occasionally...
Jet guides stricken plane to safety - Telegraph

Kinda what I was talking about, except that I would not really liken a Beech Super King Air (cruises at 250-300kts) to your average spam can.... I seem to recall a Tucano FI helped out a guy in a Cessna under similar circumstances a while back though, hence my mentioning the aeroplane earlier.

I was more interested in what to expect should I ever be intercepted in Blighty myself.

Regards, SD..

[High_Expect]

You could expect the standard ICAO intercept procedures.... think back to air law exam - Wing waggling etc. Albeit in a series a passes as they come past you. There would be a sharp break away after each pass so you knew not to follow. ie. First pass he wing waggles, you do the same (to show you're complying) he then breaks hard up and away and repositions behind. Second pass - alongside then gentle turn away which you follow, when he breaks away roll out and fly in a straight line. If he needs you to do more turn he'll come past again. You can get a FJ quite slow... think back to air shows and the slow passes. Although you can still accept a fair bit of overtake if you're doing 100kts. Hope that helps.

The Tucano incident was right place right time with the right experienced instructor on board. Not something that is trained for. We have QRA for that. + a Tucano can’t find you and intercept you IMC unlike QRA.

[Geehovah]

Never did have to bring anyone out of the ADIZ. The German light aviation pilots would lose their ticket if they were intercepted heading East. The cost of the QRA lauch could be quite daunting.

Bringing an F4 alongside Cessna 150 doing 100 kts with everything dangling was also a challenge. The pictures tended to be a tad blurred. Even finding a 100 kt target on radar kept you on your toes. 200kts minimum even if you trimmed everything to minimums - and that was pushing it. Of course I meant 250 kts...................