Hi all,
The paragraphs say, practice interceptions should not be undertaken.
What are the exemptions? Aircraft with no SLF?
Under what circumstances would a practice interception of civil aircraft be possible? Thanks.

Why would you need to practise with any plane outside the RAF?

For large aircraft interception a C130 would suffice, and for small aircraft a grob tutor would suffice. I dno't see why you'd ever need to practise on a civilian aircraft, unless it's agreed before the flight for a pilot flying from cranwell aviation school etc.

That subject comes up quite regularly among airline pilots ;-)
Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible, unless you don't mind to be on youtube next day. But heard the other day that in France such interceptions still take place after the ok from the airliner pilot is received. But I have my doubts...Thought you guys might know the rules. :)

a C130 would suffice

Like we have loads of those available ....

Since 9/11 this is in my opinion no longer possible Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s.

You get my point though Wrathmonk, admittedly the C130 wasn't a great choice, I just happened to be reading about them at the time.

Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s

I don't think that there can be many ex-Wattisham fighter crews who haven't intercepted the 'Norwich flier' on a few occasions!

I don't think that AirUK ever complained though. But a chum and I were once flying back from Turnhoos to Norwich in an elderly AirUK F27 - only to be intercepted by an F4 from our own squadron.....:\

Night 'Profit' often jammed the Neatishead Fighter Controller, so a few airliners found themselves being intercepted on such occasions!

We don't do it at all. The only civvy a/c pinged are the Cobham guys.

We did intercept a few Virgin a/c after 9/11. It was sanctioned by Mr Branson & proved to be a good learning tool. Interestingly, the a/c intercepted had no passengers onboard & were being flow specifically for the training scenario.

It was quite funny watching the F3 do it's best to turn with a 747 at high altitude... Couldn't help but suspect that the Virgin crew knew exactly what they were doing. Probably ex Tonka drivers!!

"Practice interceptions of civilian aircraft has been on the list of prohibited intercepts since back in the 60/70s"

To the best of my knowledge, embellished flight plans are still acceptable within ICAO.

aren't the flights down to MPA in a civi-registered ac? Pretty sure they get a welcoming intercept as they approach the Islands. I've certainly been up close to an a330 down there.

I intercepted Concorde in the 70s

And the BA 747s enjoyed the protection going into Stanley in the early 80s:ok:

You could always do an intercept on a civvy if you're doing Targets of Opportunity (TOO), just be sure to break off as soon as you VID that its a civvy and not a mil jet!!!

Oddly enough, most of the time I have done this the civvy crew haven't even noticed - too busy looking at their laptops...now that would never happen would it? :E

Lawmakers seek to ban laptops, other devices in cockpits after airliner incident -- chicagotribune.com (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/sns-ap-us-cockpit-laptops,0,7940568.story)

The B Word

Ditto Geehova. Tried for a guns solution on Concorde but one burner didn't light in the turn.

Maybe not quite civvie, but the first Tornado GR formation delivered to Saudi (via noght stop in Akrotiri) came close to being shot down for real by Lightnings on alert in Cyprus against a possible Libyan attack. They apparently had embellish on their flight plan but were in desert camouflage, swing wing and had green markings - and were enjoying trying to avoid the Historic Flight QRA that went up against them. Nobody told QRA it was practise!

Contact the Jever Steam Laundry for details but in the fifties it was reported that the battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters) and brought home cine and also a story went around of a Comet carrying HM being filmed as a "target of opportunity".

Happy days!

I am sure someone will quote the exact words, but whilst PIs on civil ac are 'prohibited intercepts', but the more recent phrase included the addition of "... unless part of a pre-briefed exercise".

The change was brought in following the introduction of civil ac for target facilities and EW exercises.

There was always some discussion about what was meant by 'pre-briefed', my personal interpretation (and that generally accepted in the ground at least) was that the intercept had to be arranged before flight.

Embellished status for civil ac is not in itself sufficient to make them suitable targets (in the UK ADR anyway).

I may be a couple of years out of date, so will gladly bow to anyone with more recent info.

STH

May have been me flying the F27 which incidentally had the handling characteristics of a supermarket trolley - ie a mind of its own. We had no autopilot's in those days - they were removed to save weight and the cost of maintainance. Flying S&L for long periods could be a bore and as most of the controllers we spoke to were Mil and they recognised some of our voices we were frequently "embellished" by Frightenings and F4s.
I remember one occasion returning to Norwich from AMS two F4s (one piloted by an old mate whose name sounded as if he were one of my siblings) sat on my wingtips as I approached Rackheath (OM RW27 NWI) at 224kts (balls out!). As was normal pax were briefed and had noses to the windows. First officer looks up from check list/paperwork etc, spots F4's and says f:mad:k me do you think those b:mad:s have seen us. F4s depart fowards in full burner circling F27 and climbing rapidly and noisily above us.
Great days - was you one of em Beags:ok:

Geehovah,

"I intercepted Concorde in the 70s"

In what may I ask?

LM :)

"battle flight intercepted a Russian a/c carrying Kruschev (Armed live Hunters)"

My Dad was a sumpy on 71 Sqn,Sabres, at the time, a 4 ship landed asked for a very quick TR and launched to intercept Kruschev. Later in the day a note was put up thanking the lads for the quick TRs, note removed shortly after as a potential political storm was brewing!

LM, The MOD hired Concorde from BAC (IIRC) for a supersonic intercept practice. It flew a circuit around the North Sea at M 2.0 as a target for each fighter wing in turn. It may even have been late 60s as I recall the Notam and exercise instruction but from 1970 I was overseas.

This was also the time of 'big' exercises like Lime Jug, the first Highwood, Bersatu Pardu. We had a budget for proper training.

Can we still put "Embellish" on the flight plan?

I'd be happy if you guys would like to use us for the practice (Cobham Beech 200 Flight Checker) :)

Wader 2,

"We had a budget for proper training"

Did we ever!

Didn't say it didn't happen, it did (frequently), but it was always unofficial and against the rules. It was prohibited by regulations and if anything had ever gone wrong a CM would have followed.

In the 70/80s BA used to fly round trip charity flights for kids on weekends around Xmas and ask to be intercepted, and we'd oblige. "No Santa on his sleigh kids, but if you look out the left hand window you'll see an RAF F4..."

The Norwich Flier got intercepted regularily, as stated, as did puddle jumpers for crossing the North Sea in the Great yarmouth area. WT had to man the CAP down there even though there were never any targets. So, if you saw a low, slow contact it was, "intercept with caution" (It'a civvie, don't scare him). As I recall one intercept, where the crew misjudged their closing speed, the call was, "low, slow, yellow, cesssnnnnnaaa" as they pulled about 9G to miss him.

You'd also "intercept" airways traffic by coordinating and maintaining a 1000ft below, at least when the aircraft was squawking Mode C. I recall one such intercept with a Shar.

SHar: "Visual"

Controller: "Roger, should be a SAS DC9".

SHar: "No, this is a XXX 737, and there's a woman in a yellow dress in the last row waving at me."

The most flak I ever saw was when the LU QRA was holding north of Saxa (usual Bear Fs that didn't penetrate) and was intercepting the atlantic traffic to pass the time. (At the time Saxa parked the labels on RAPDS and the controller and crew did intercepts whilst the DC in the Bunker, and any 2*s in their offices were unaware) When he got on the ground the bright spark of a Nav "claimed" a Korean Air 747 in the INTSUM to SACEUR. This was a couple of months after the Russians had shot one down. What a fun day that turned out to be**....

So:

Rule 1: Intercepts on Civil aircraft are prohibited.
Rule 2: If I ever intercepted one, I didn't know it was a civilian.**
Rule 3. If I did know it was a civilian, my aircraft never got closer than +/- 1000/2000 ft.
Rule 4: I deny everything.

(**The explanation given and, and I don't know how anyone up the ladder kept a straight face, was that the 747 was off the expected flight plan track and they thought it might be one of the Bears...)

Lightning Mate

"I intercepted Concorde in the 70s"

In what may I ask?

As tasked: with a Sparrow sim plug:ok: The Lightning flew higher but the F4 had a missile that could snap up. In parameters and verified.

G-AXDN ran a round UK profile for training purposes

Concorde at 65k and one heck of a pull from a long way out. About the longest shot I took in the 70s IIRC

Or did I misunderstand the term "interception" in the title of the thread?

The Parisian interceptor is Police Squirrel Helicopter (cant remember the Military name for it!) with a Marksman (and a big gun!) and an electric signpost hanging under the Skids!

Nice one, Geehovah, but with the greatest of respect, it should be "We intercepted Concorde..." if you get my drift.

I can live with that. Two seat through and through.

It was hard to do it alone in an F4. Switches and gauges in all the wrong places:ok:

Not entirely correct. I was on duty at 280SU that night (early morning in fact) ans we didn't get any flight plan information at all. Therefore it was a real scramble as far as we were concerned too.:ugh: