Bomber Command Memorial

[ORAC]

Bomber Command memorial design unveiled (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/rafbombercommand/6417637/Bomber-Command-memorial-design-unveiled.html)

This is the magnificent proposed design for a memorial to the forgotten heroes of Bomber Command, to be built in central London with funds donated largely by readers of The Daily Telegraph.


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01508/command_1508743c.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01508/bomber_1508717c.jpg

The Bomber Command Association hopes the memorial to the 55,573 airmen who died in the Second World War will be in place by 2011, with work beginning next year if sufficient funds can be raised by then.

Since The Daily Telegraph launched the Forgotten Heroes appeal a year ago, more than £1.5million has been raised following an overwhelming response from readers, but the appeal needs to raise another £1m before the project can go ahead. Details of how you can donate to the appeal appear at the end of this article.

It is intended that the memorial will be built from Portland stone, and have as its centrepiece a bronze sculpture of a heavy bomber’s seven crew members looking up at the sky through an opening in the roof. The proposed site for the memorial is in Piccadilly, near Hyde Park Corner and on the edge of Green Park, subject to approval by the Royal Parks and Westminster Council.

Squadron Leader Tony Iveson, vice president of the Bomber Command Association and a former Lancaster pilot in 617 Squadron, better known as The Dambusters, said: “We feel this is a design which will be a fitting tribute, one which will endure, and one which is worthy of its place in the heart of London. We are at a stage now where we can realistically hope to see the memorial completed in 2011, when there will still be plenty of veterans alive to see it. So far the appeal has generated an incredible response, for which we are hugely grateful. We received nearly 90,000 letters of support after The Daily Telegraph first publicised the campaign last year, and we really feel that we touched the heart of the nation. Now we just need one more big fundraising push to get us over the line.”

Despite Bomber Command suffering the highest casualty rate of any unit during the Second World War, with fatalities of almost 50 per cent of all those who flew on operations, the nation’s capital still has no memorial to them. Veterans believe they have been victims of political correctness, after some historians questioned the tactic of area bombing. But no-one has ever questioned the courage of the young men from all over the Commonwealth who volunteered to serve in Bomber Command, with an average age of 22, flying over occupied territory night after night to grind down the Nazi war machine, and playing a decisive role in the final Allied victory.

The memorial has been designed by Liam O’Connor, who also built the Armed Forces Memorial in Staffordshire and the Commonwealth Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill near Buckingham Palace. He said: “This will be a unique memorial which will also be compatible with the historic fabric of this part of Westminster.”

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, Chief of the Air Staff, said: “The MoD and RAF are fully supportive of this campaign for a long overdue memorial to the brave men who served in Bomber Command. They deserve no less than a visible and fitting memorial in the capital."

To donate to the appeal, send a cheque, payable to Bomber Command Memorial Fund, to Bomber Command Association, c/o RAF Museum, Grahame Park Way, Hendon, London NW9 5LL or go to RAF Bomber Command memorial appeal - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/bombercommand).

[Easy Street]

Westminster City Council have granted planning permission.

BBC News - WWII Bomber Command heroes to get London monument (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8681663.stm)

[Chugalug2]

Good to see the Campaign moving again. Regarding the campaign:
.....after The Daily Telegraph first publicised the campaign last year,
is rather buried in the article, so perhaps we should remember that the campaign started here
THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION (http://www.theheritagefoundation.info)
and as the piece further down mentions was very much the personal dream of Robin Gibb (of Bee-Gees fame). That the BCA is fully behind the campaign and it is being promoted by the Daily Telegraph is tremendous, but credit where it is due for getting this very onerous ball rolling lies with one man in my opinion. Well done, Sir! :D To the rest of us one might say, "and about bloody time!". :ok:

[pasir]

As already said - 'Not before time' . It is a sad reflection on
todays society that the efforts and valour of those lost aircrews of Bomber Command continue to be a subject of controversy in certain
quarters.

Its a further sad comment that the authorities will need to ensure
that the bronze portion of the proposed memorial will be protected
from falling into the hands of scrap metal criminals or collectors.

[A and C]

I was very pleased to hear just a moment ago on Radio 4 that the planning permision for the memorial had been granted.

[Tankertrashnav]

Just been listening to MRAF Sir Michael Beetham on the Today prog talking about the memorial. Stated in firm and unequivocal terms he had no regrets about the Bomber Command offensive. Good to hear!

[Hugh Spencer]

Extremely good news! As ex-aircrew WW2 I have been looking for this to happen for many months, despite objections from some organisations and locals. Full speed ahead.

[AirportsEd]

Does anyone know what the objections were based upon?

[Samuel]

Green Park. Isn't that opposite the RAF Club? [From someone uncertain of his bearings!]

[Andu]

Quite close, Samuel.

Will it have all the names listed (like the US Vietnam memorial)? I hope so.

Interestingly, the total number of names would also be quite close to the number of US dead in Vietnam.

[Tankertrashnav]

Quite close, Samuel.

As you suspected - directly opposite, on the other side of Piccadilly!

[November4]

Will it have all the names listed (like the US Vietnam memorial)? I hope so.

I wondered the same thing don't think it will

The memorial will contain inscriptions, carvings, and a dedication.

There will also be inscriptions from Winston Churchill, who said in a speech to Parliament in 1940: "The gratitude of every home in our island ... and indeed throughout the world except in the abodes of the guilty goes out to the British airmen who undaunted by odds, un-weakened by their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of world war by their prowess and their devotion."

[bobward]

Great news, albeit a bit overdue. This, and the new beacon at Hendon for the Battle of Britain section... strange how these just seem to happen the week we change government.....

Now, how about awarding a long overdue campaign medal for all the blokes who flew in Bomber Command?

[3D CAM]

Now, how about awarding a long overdue campaign medal for all the blokes who flew in Bomber Command?

Yes and not before too long!!!!
Time for people in this country to remember what these young men gave.
3D

[Chugalug2]

Covered inter-alia here:
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/346512-bomber-command-campaign-medal.html
and here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/296590-bomber-command-memorial-merged.html
All for it personally but many who posted were con (cue Jacko?).

[Molemot]

I have recently read the splendid book "Lancaster: the Second World War's Greatest Bomber", by Leo McKinstry. In it, he points out that Sir Arthur Harris's greatest grievance with the refusal to award the members of Bomber Command their own campaign medal was not mainly about the aircrew, who could qualify for the Aircrew Europe Star....but for the ground crew, whose dedication to the preparation of the aeroplanes was rewarded only with the Defence Medal. "Few people appreciate the terrible miseries and discomforts and the tremendous hours of work under which the ground personnel of Bomber Command on the airfields have laboured for nearly six years and through six winters, two of which have been notoriously bitter" he told Sir Archibald Sinclair on 1st July 1945. As to the award of the Defence Medal, he said that the idea of a "defence" medal was a contravention of the very purpose of Bomber Command.... "The only task which we have not been asked to perform, other than negatively, is that of "defence.""

Unable to acheive his desire to obtain a campaign medal for his men, he refused all honours and awards offered to him, other than the Defence Medal for which all his ground based personnel qualified. It's another example of political decisions being made on other grounds.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the British airmen who undaunted by odds, un-weakened by their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of world war by their prowess and their devotion


While this may also be appropriate for the men of Bomber Command, it's not as if Churchill was referring to them when he said this - one hopes that another quotation, equally moving, but said in direct reference to Bomber Command, can be found.

[dead_pan]

Giant 380ft beacon planned to commemorate Battle of Britain - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7723210/Giant-380ft-beacon-planned-to-commemorate-Battle-of-Britain.html)

Do we as a nation have £80m to spare at the moment? If so, perhaps that money would be better spent on the various service charities. IMO the BBMF is enough of a memorial.

PS How long it is appropriate to keep commemorating? As long as the combatants are still alive?

[Chugalug2]

OK, round all the buoys again, I guess. Although Bomber Command played an important though oft ignored part in the Battle of Britain, this thread is about the former and not the latter. Given that the BofB is commemorated by the Fighter Command Memorials on the Embankment and at Capel-le-Fern, I would suggest they are an elegant sufficiency. In contrast Bomber Command has a stone embedded inside Lincoln Cathedral! However, as to how long we should go on commemorating both formations and their sacrifice, I would suggest forever might be a good target to aim for. Certainly way beyond:
As long as the combatants are still alive?
London rightly has memorials to commemorate Trafalgar and Waterloo that ensured our freedom from tyranny some 200 years ago. If their significance is lost on those who pass them on a daily basis that is a comment on attitudes today rather than sacrifice then. One can only lead horses to water. These memorials are that water. If those who view them do not take in the implicit message they, or the subject memorial of this thread, contain then we should look to what if anything is being taught in our schools.

[RETDPI]

Looking around some of the Aviation Websites, I get the impression that whilst the Bomber Command memorial is almost totally supported , most disapprove of the expensive Hendon "helter-skelter fun fair" approach.

[Tankertrashnav]

I wondered how long before the old Bomber Command Medal argument would be revived. As Chugalug has pointed out, this has been discussed ad nauseam, usually by people talking from a depth of ignorance on the subject

Just so as we all know - Bomber Command were not uniquely denied a medal - no campaign medals were issued to formations after WW2 - all were theatre awards. Indeed the Aircrew Europe Star awarded to all Bomber Command Aircrew up to D Day is in itself almost exclusively a Bomber Command award, so Bomber Command aircrew did rather better than most in this respect.

I have also seen Harris's argument that the rigours undergone by groundcrew during long hours on Bomber Command airfields entitled them to something more than the Defence Medal. Try telling a fireman who served through the London Blitz that his services were less deserving than an airman on an airfield somewhere in East Anglia - and yet he had to be satisfied with just the Defence Medal.

I am 100% in support of the Bomber Command Memorial and look forward to seeing it completed - but let's let this business of the medal go at last.

[November4]

Have to admit that I thin it a bit ironic that they will use a Churchill quote on the memorial when ...

Veterans of Bomber Command have always believed their fallen comrades became victims of political correctness after the war as politicians sought to distance themselves from the policy of area bombing, which led to widespread civilian casualties.

Even Churchill himself snubbed Bomber Command when he highlighted the vital contribution of every branch of the services in winning the war, but pointedly made no reference to the Bomber Boys.


Source (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/rafbombercommand/3286756/Bomber-Command-Winston-Churchills-grandson-backs-memorial-appeal.html)

[Samuel]

Isn't it just wonderful? That there is, finally, to be a memorial, and in such a prominent site. I've read all the arguments over the years, about who said what etc, but all of that changed nothing because what was really fundamental about the whole issue was that 55, 000 young men, volunteers all, died.

Soon, there won't be any living links to those men, but as someone has said here there should be no limits set on the time we remember them, and the new memorial does just that. I would go futher and suggest that evey single name should be inscribed; there are precedents for doing so, and what more can we do than record permanently in stone the names of the dead?

On 1 March 2009,Some 200 veterans of the RAF’s World War II Bomber Command were joined by almost as many relatives, friends and onlookers to see the New Zealand Bomber Command Association’s memorial to fallen comrades unveiled in the Auckland War Memorial Museum .It is a much more modest affair compared to that proposed in London, being simply a freestanding bronze sculpture of a Lancaster crew with a Lancaster coming out of a marble background. It acknowledges the huge contribution New Zealand had made to Bomber Command and the sacrifice – some 6,000 had served and of these almost 2,000 had given their lives, by far the highest proportion of any country in the Commonwealth.

[vecvechookattack]

Dresden mayor to ask Boris Johnson: 'Don't build Bomber Command crews memorial' | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1309480/Dresden-mayor-ask-Boris-Johnson-Dont-build-Bomber-Command-crews-memorial.html)

[Pontius Navigator]

Sounds like a good arguement for the memorial.

[Old-Duffer]

When first unveiled, the statue of Sir Arthur Harris was vandalised several times. I suspect the same fate awaits the Bomber Command Memorial, unless some thought is given to its protection. Its location seems to offer free access for anybody who wants to attack it and I should have wished for a location which allowed the site to be closed off when not open to the public.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

I suspect the same fate awaits the Bomber Command Memorial


You may be right, but the Harris memorial was specifically targeted because of who he was (ie it wasn't random vandalism). I wonder, therefore, if the vandals may make a distinction between the instigator of the carpet bombing policy (who should have been aware that it wasn't working) and those who bravely carried out the orders. Far from guaranteed, I grant you (and there's always the risk from random vandalism, but here's hoping!

[Chugalug2]

TOTD:
the instigator of the carpet bombing policy
So who was that then? Certainly not Harris who took over the Bombing Campaign which had already switched by fait accompli to bombing by night in the face of the huge losses sustained by day. That was the policy and it was Harris's duty to execute it. That he was an enthusiast of Strategic Bombing is hardly surprising as that was presumably what got him the job! I don't think that there was ever a policy of "Carpet Bombing" per se which was a journalistic rather than military description of the campaign. hence the urgent and costly endeavours to improve bombing accuracy right up to the very end. The reality was that if crews managed to find the target city they were to be congratulated, let alone the particular IP. To suggest that the average off target error achieved (5 miles at one point I believe) was a deliberate policy of Harris to ensure a "carpet of bombs" is a slur on him and his crews. City areas were targeted as it was unrealistic to expect anything more of Main Force. It was as good as you got by night over Europe in hostile skies with crews who mostly never survived long enough to qualify as experienced.
the Harris memorial was specifically targeted because of who he was
Well he was the AOC-in-C, diligently carrying out the orders of the Air Board and the War Cabinet. That they all abandoned him along with the Churchill, is a comment on them all rather than he. Same goes for the Neanderthals who "targeted" his statue. Sorry scratch the last, totally unwarranted slur on the Neanderthals!
Oh, one more thing. It didn't work? I have to disagree, crude as it was the Bombing Campaign was a war winning one in my view. Of course we would have had to not conduct it and still win for your view to be anything more than the prevailing "wisdom".

[Ali Barber]

Wasn't Dresden a key junction for the Germans facing the red Army's advance?

[Tankertrashnav]

While we are remembering Bomber Command it would be nice to also remember the men of the US 8th Army Air Force who carried the bomber offensive to Germany by day. I have no knowledge of the numbers of their losses, but they must have been on the same scale as that suffered by Bomber Command. The two Schweinfurt raids alone produced a horrific casualty list. I am not aware of a specific memorial to them in this country - does anyone know if there is one in the US?

[Lima Juliet]

Half of the U.S. Army Air Force’s casualties in WW II were suffered by Eighth Air Force (more than 47,000 casualties, with more than 26,000 dead). Seventeen Medals of Honor went to Eighth Air Force personnel during the war.

The biggest Cemetary is near Cambridge...

http://losses8.webplus.net/wpimages/wp5e971e17_05.jpg

Here is a link: American Battle Monuments Commission (http://www.abmc.gov/cemeteries/cemeteries/ca.php)

Despite what we grumble about them, we owe the US a great debt for their sacrifice (IMHO).

LJ

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks LJ - very impressive and very moving.

[ECMO1]

There is a memorial at Arlington National Cemetery in Washington DC. Not nearly as impressive as the one under discussion.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/eighth-af02.jpg

[mfaff]

TTN,

There is a memorial to the US airmen, including those of the 8th AF who did not return is located on the approaches to the entrance of the AAM at Duxford.

A series of etched glass panels...each plane representing one and its crew which did not return....

The number of planes per panel and then the number of panels gives an hint of the numbers...

The American Air Museum > Counting the Cost Memorial Sculpture (http://aam.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.1755)

[A and C]

Just because some uninformed politicly correct revisionist may try to damage the Bomber command memorial is no reason not to build it......... It is vital that the nation is reminded of the price of freedom.

As to the Mayor of Dresden I would ask her to try to think what the victims of the gas chambers and ask what they would say about the people who were working towards the destruction of the Nazi's. I very much doubt that the victims of the Nazi's death camps would object to this memorial.

It seems very easy for this Mayor to forget the millions of men, women and children that the Nazi's sent to their deaths for no other reason that they did not fit in to Hitlers idea of what the human race should be.

I am proud of the efforts of Bomber command, I have no regrets of the actions that were taken as these were what was seen as what was required at the time and reasonable with the information avalable to those who were responsable for the planning of such raids.

There is no doubt that with the information avalable now the bomber offensive could have been better run, more effective and caused less destruction to the German civil population but this is looking back, it my opinion that the people involved did the best job that they could given the information and resorces that they had avalable at the time.

My message to to the Mayor of Dresden is to look inward to the German history of the 1930 to 1945 period and ask her if she feels proud of this?

I can look back and feel proud of all of the people who took some part in the destructon of the most evil govenment to ever soil the face of this planet.

I hold all the Bomber crews in the greatest of respect and cannot fail to remember the 55,000 who did not return. The very least we can do in their memory is to errect this memorial.

[The B Word]

A and C

Well said fella :D

By the way:

Just because some uninformed politicly correct revisionist may try to damage the Bomber command memorial is no reason not to build it.........

Have you just shortlisted what will be mounted on a plinth nearby?

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/scoopdeck/files/2010/04/CIWS.jpg

:E:E:E

[Chugalug2]

Well said A and C. The one thing that drives the survivors, conscious both of their own longevity and of the approaching and inevitable final curtain is that a proper national memorial to their fallen comrades, who enjoyed such brief lives and suffered all too often terrible and fearful ends, be at last provided. Rather than worry at how this reads in Dresden or for that matter any other German city and town that were their targets night after night from the very beginning to the very end of WW2 in Europe, we would do better to hang our heads in shame at the slight their sacrifice has suffered for some 65 years. 55573 dead and a mere simple stone set in a Cathedral to remember them by. We pride ourselves on our tolerance and understanding but we can also be very hard and very cruel!

[Clockwork Mouse]

As a British serviceman in Germany attached to the Bundeswehr I took my wife and children to visit the German Navy war memorial near Kiel. It is to all the U-Boat crews who lost their lives in WW2 fighting for their country. The memorial is beautiful and lists the 700 or more U-Boats sunk by date and lists their crews who died, thousands of them.
We were moved and humbled. Though the young men listed had been our enemies, had killed thousands of my own countrymen and women and nearly brought my country to its knees, I felt only humility and compassion for them and their families and saluted their bravery and sacrifice. They too were doing their duty.
Memorials to the fallen do not glorify war. They honour the sacrifice of those who fought in their country's defence and show the cost of war. We will remember them! Incidentally most of the money for this one comes from donations, not from the taxpayer.
The Bomber Command memorial is long overdue. Perhaps the Mayor of Dresden should visit the U-Boat memorial in her own country and think about what such memorials really represent before daring to meddle in our business.

[pasir]

...On the issue regarding accusations that the official policy of RAF carpet bombing of German cities was carried out on orders originating from
ACM Harris - or that Harris was acting on policy and orders from the UK Govt and Air Ministry - and that Churchill distanced himself from Bomber Commands achievments towards the end of the war - Whilst acknowledging that without Churchill this nation may well not have survied the war - Never-the-less Churchill has 'form' for distancing himself from controversey and disasters - in what has been described as this nations greatest military disaster - The Fall of Singapore - whereby it is recorded that Churchill himself has some awkward questions to answere that
led up to the disaster and that he promised a 'full investigation' would be instigated after the war - but all conveniently swept under the carpet and forgotten - Leaving Churchill free of any possible accusations or blame.

...

[Torque Tonight]

I can look back and feel proud of all of the people who took some part in the destructon of the most evil govenment to ever soil the face of this planet.

Yes, I too cast my vote in this year's general election.

As for the lady Mayoress of Dresden: our country, our aircrew, our memorial, our business. Ironically this memorial concerns a previous occasion when a German politician aspired to dictate the internal affairs of the UK.

[XV490]

A feature in today's Express in support of the memorial was somewhat spoiled by the picture editor's choice of a USAAF B-17, Big Bitch, and its crew - used large.:ugh:

Not that we should ever forget the 8th Air Force's 26,000 killed - but I despair sometimes of increasingly sloppy editing and lack of checking in national papers and on TV. Prepare for a bonanza of errors in the coming week's Battle of Britain coverage, courtesy of under-trained researchers who don't give a sh*t anyway.

[Tankertrashnav]

I notice that the "have your say" feature is unavailable for this article, XV 490. Just as well, as there would have more than a few expletives. Wtf was the 8th Bomber Command? An insult to both the RAF and USAAF (see my post above).

[XV490]

TT - It seems the pictures (see example here (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6589/55050721.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/8208-b-17-bomber-2.html&usg=__VxqVj4nVEOxQ0IaVhxG0DF0gbEs=&h=798&w=1024&sz=86&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Uz7WxlW0sClhZM:&tbnh=127&tbnw=166&prev=/images%3Fq%3Db-17%2Bbig%2Bbitch%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1152%26bih%3D671%26tbs%3Di sch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=400&ei=7teITJtUh_Y5vq7Vmg4&oei=7teITJtUh_Y5vq7Vmg4&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0&tx=59&ty=66)) were obtained, presumably online, from Getty Images - no doubt using the search words 'bomber command'.

Getty, being an American library, probably threw up the B-17 shots given that the USAAF also used the term 'bomber command' - and, hey presto, the Express thought they'd struck gold.

Yes, the 8th Air Force lost 26,000 UK-based men in a thousand days. The 9th Air Force lost a further 6,000 flying from the UK. And, as has been pointed out, they're well served with appropriate memorials over here - principally at Duxford and Madingley. No Dresden protests over them, as far as I know.

In the US, there's also the Mighty Eighth Air Force Museum in Savannah, which opened in 1992. Its memorial gardens are quite magnificent.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

It didn't work? I have to disagree


Okay - so what exactly did it achieve apart from the slaughtering of tens of thousands of non-combatants and the wrecking of lots of nice old buildings?


he was the AOC-in-C, diligently carrying out the orders of the Air Board and the War Cabinet


Absolutely. So why didn't he advise said superiors, after nearly 3 years of trying, that the carpet bombing wans't achieving much, and that his potent force might be better employed doing something different (eg attacking the oil industry, which we knew from Ultra intercepts was seriously hurting the German war machine)? Let's face it, by the time of Dresden, German air defences were largely ineffective by day, so Bomber Command could have switched to daylight attacks on precision targets; while some daylight raids were mounted toward the end, a huge amount of effort was still expended on mass night attacks as per Dresden (let's not forget the cost in our crews and aircraft, never mind those on the receiving end). The USAAF were sufficiently open-minded to change the direction of their bombing campaign several times (ball bearings, aircraft production) until they knew for sure they were doing real damage to the German war effort.


crude as it was the Bombing Campaign was a war winning one in my view. Of course we would have had to not conduct it and still win for your view to be anything more than the prevailing "wisdom".


Do you honestly believe that Germany would have won had Bomber Command not laid waste to German cities? I think that the Red Army might have something to say about your view!


No Dresden protests over them, as far as I know.


True - but this may be because the USAAF tried their best to hit military targets. While inevitably they killed plenty of civilians (and while Bomber Command no doubt happened to hit some installations which contributed to the German war effort), the intent of the separate bomber fleets is probably what makes the difference to modern-day Germans.

[XV490]

True - but this may be because the USAAF tried their best to hit military targets. I wasn't venturing an opinion here, merely pointing out the facts. More than 300 B-17s bombed the city of Dresden the morning after the RAF attack, dropping almost half as many bombs.

But I cannot imagine that "modern-day Germans" make a moral distinction between the differing methods and intent behind British and American bombing of their country between 1942 and 1945. The fate of Munster, Hamburg and many other cities would obviate that.

In any case, while the USAAF pursued precision daylight bombing of strategic targets in Germany, it didn't follow the same policy in Japan where, in the spring of 1945, cities such as Tokyo were devastated by B-29s - flying by night, and deliberately dropping incendiaries to burn thousands of wooden dwellings. One raid, in March, killed 100,000 people, four times the Dresden figure.

If it's true that the Americans have escaped censure for their bombing campaigns over Germany and Japan, perhaps their role in rebuilding both countries into powerful economies has some bearing.

[Tankertrashnav]

Torque of the Devil

think that the Red Army might have something to say about your view!


Dont worry, most Russians are blissfully unaware of the fact that anyone took part in the war apart from the Red Army. Certainly on land they were a powerful force (although they would have been a lot more powerful if Stalin had not had thousands of their officers shot in the late 1930's), but the USSR's contribution to the air war was almost exclusively as a battlefield tactical air force in support of ground troops and she took practically no part in the strategic air offensive.


Do you honestly believe that Germany would have won had Bomber Command not laid waste to German cities?


Do you honestly maintain that the Red Army could have successfully invaded from the East had Bomber Command and the 8th Army Air Force not laid waste to the German industrial war machine, and equally importantly neutralised the Luftwaffe by early 1945? All this was done with no assistance from the Soviets, who completely ignore the fact in their own version of The Great Patriotic War.

[pasir]

... Further to our 'Friendly WW2 Russian 'Allies' - It is often overlooked that
shortly after Poland was invaded by Germany - Stalin surprised the West by
signing a Non Aggression Pact with Germany - Also stabbing Poland in the back by invading - In effect aiding and abetting our enemy. It wasnt until Germany then invaded Russia in 1941 that Stalin wished to be friends with the West. However most if not all requests to Stalin to offer landing and refueling facilities at Russian airfields for UK and US airforce deep penetration raids over hostile territory were usually met with cold decline - With similar coldness often awarded to our forgotten merchant seamen who had braved harsh freezing ocean waters, many suffering torpedoe attacks
and drowning in the icy artic waters to Murmansk - Bringing much needed war munitions to what was often a cold sullen reception - with our seaman usually confined to their ships and not allowed ashore - Such was the Russian gratitude and hospitality - apart from the isolated exception.

...

[Blacksheep]

As I've posted in the sister thread in Jet Blast, Dresden was bombed because General Antonov asked for it to be bombed during the Chiefs of staff meeting at the Yalta conference. German documents captured in 1945 showed that their High Command ordered that Dresden be heavily fortified and defended to the last in the face of the Red Army advance. That this was known to our own Chiefs of Staff has recently been revealed from the opening of the "Ultra" files from Bletchley Park, where German orders to the local defence commanders were deciphered. These deciphered German orders automatically made its marshalling yards a priority target.

The reportedly peaceful Arts & Crafts city of Dresden wasn't bumbling along in the background knocking out china dolls, it was a hive of industry with 127 factories churning out torpedoes, u-boat periscopes, V1 rocket and aircraft parts. If you take a look at satellite photos of Dresden you will see that the vitally important and massive rail junction and marshalling yards were, as they still are, located slap bang in the middle of the city - and there were no Smart" bombs at the time. A concentrated bombing attack on the marshalling yards - vital interdiction at the time - was bound to cause massive collateral damage. I'm sure the citizens of Stalingrad would understand.

[JOE-FBS]

I imagine that all those AA guns (especially the dual role 88); aircraft; pilots; etc. kept in Germany to fight the bombers would have made quite a difference on other fronts if there had been no bombing.

[Blacksheep]

Dresden's AA 88s had actually been relocated to face the front in anti-tank emplacements. A front which wasn't all that far away - the High Command was fortifying Dresden for a Stalingrad style "last stand" remember. Not that the reduction in Ack-Ack made Dresden a particularly soft target. Its a long flight over Germany with night fighters all the way.

[Chugalug2]

TOTD, although much of your last post was addressed to me others have answered you far more ably than I could so I won't go into all the nitty gritty of "Why Dresden?" other than to merely ask "Why not?".
Your repeated use of the phrase "Carpet Bombing" with its implied wish to slay as many "innocent women and children" as possible rather than trying to win a war says everything about where you are coming from and the little chance there is to sway you from it. As has been pointed out already many of the "Innocent Women" were working in the High Tech War Industry now dispersed to such quiet centres like Dresden. Also doing much the same were armies of pressed "Guest Workers" from the occupied countries and Slave Labourers from the SS Concentration Camps. One of the latter, who against all the odds survived, has told how he cheered the bombers on even as they threatened his own life, which all goes to show that this is all a matter of one's point of view, yours, mine, and his.
I'm sure that there hasn't been a war, battle or military campaign in history that couldn't have been fought differently to better advantage. WW2 is no exception, the RAF Bombing Campaign is no exception, but hindsight is both a wonderful and wholly questionable activity in my view. Presumably you would say that the RAF Night Bombing Campaign was wrong from beginning to end. Your faith in precision bombing by day as then practised by the USAAF is also questionable, given that their average off target error was some 2.5 miles as compared to BC's 5 miles by night. Still a lot of Reich Cows and Civilians therein I would suggest. How exactly were the logistics of day bombing going to work anyway? Us one day and the USAAF the other? Or were we all going to go in together? You know enough to know I hope that would not have worked, and before the availability of the excellent long range Mustang escorts (first launched by the Brits), would have meant very heavy losses for the lighter armed but heavier bombed up RAF 4 engined Bombers. The USAAF had to withdraw from the fray for a period themselves due to their own vulnerability in that regard I believe.
So continue with revisionist rants if you wish. It is your right to do so. I would point out though that is because it was fought for in enemy skies on a nightly basis by RAF Bomber Command aircrew for nearly 5 long years. Luckily for you, for me, and the Jewish prisoner in Dresden, they prevailed.

[S'land]

For a number of reasons I do not get on-line as often as I would like. However, I am pleased to see that finally there is to be a Bomber Command Memorial.

I still do not understand the objections to it. I fully understand that Dresden was terrible, but terrible things happen in war - ask the numbers killed in Guernica.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Do you honestly maintain that the Red Army could have successfully invaded from the East had Bomber Command and the 8th Army Air Force not laid waste to the German industrial war machine, and equally importantly neutralised the Luftwaffe by early 1945?


Yes I do. The bombing may have made the Soviet advance quicker, but it would still have happened. I also disagree that the bombing neutralised the Luftwaffe (unless you mean neutralised in the sense of the USAAF bombing oil production).


Presumably you would say that the RAF Night Bombing Campaign was wrong from beginning to end


Not at all - it was worth a try (though I suggest it was no more likely to bring down Germany than the Blitz was to cause our capitulation in 1940-1). But I believe (and I may be wrong) that by mid-1944, with appalling losses to Bomber Command and no tangible result, it should have been apparent that the campaign needed to change direction either to reduce losses or achieve more worthwhile results. We knew that bombing oil was crippling the German war effort, yet brave RAF men and their fine machines were still squandered on bombing cities (to say nothing of the killing of German civilians - not all of them had relocated to factories in the countryside!). I don't think this was the best use of a potent force.

[Chugalug2]

OK TOTD let's just agree to disagree as this thread is to do with the proposed Bomber Command Memorial not the WW2 RAF Bombing Campaign. You've expressed your opinion and everyone else, me included, has expressed theirs. Perhaps the clue is in your use of the word "tangible", always elusive with talk about Air Power. The Army deals in tangibles, ie ground taken, held or lost, the RN and the RAF often have less proof of success and have to talk in terms of Naval and Air Superiority. Ask a private on the Dunkirk beach about "Air Superiority" and you'd get a mouthful as the desperate air battles to gain that and keep the Stukas of his back were out of site and out of mind. Ditto the Battle of Britain which the revisionists say was a. Indecisive, b. a Draw or c. a Naval Victory! So it is with the bombing campaign. You belittle it and say that the Red Army was going to get to Berlin anyway, might just have taken a month or two longer without the round the clock bombing of the Reich. The Red Army really began that march at Kursk because they had an abundance of tanks and the Wehrmacht had too few. The abundance was because the factories in the East were beyond the range of the Luftwaffe's twin engined medium range bombers as it had almost no long range heavy bombers, the too few was because Speer couldn't turn out enough despite cranking up output to maximum, mobilising German labour and using forced and slave labour to man his blitzed factories. Now why do you think that was? Oh, I know about the German preference for Quality over Quantity, but the butcher Stalin had a reply to that and it turned out he was right!

[Jimbo27]

Just to drift slightly off topic...

I believe that the figure of 55,000 + is not right, I think it should be either about 47,000 or 57,000

The 55,000+ figure relates to people who died up to 8 May 1945.

The Bomber Command Losses books give a total figure of over 57,000 men and women who died serving in Bomber Command. This figure is derived from the figures of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission(CWGC)

CWGC record deaths up to the end of 1947, clearly long after the end of the war in May 1945, but it seems a reasonable assumption that the blokes who died in 46 & 47 enlisted prior to the end of the war, bearing in mind how long the training could take. If the country had not been at war, they may not have joined up at all therefore it would be proper to conclude that they died because of their war service.

It could be argued that this is incorrect, only the "war" deaths should be included. If that is the case however, then perhaps only the operational casualties should count. What is the difference between someone who dies in an aircraft training accident in early 1945 compared to early 1946.

I believe the number of men who died in training was about 8,000 so this would reduce the number to 47,000 or so

Obviously a line has to be drawn somewhere, but all deaths to 31 Dec 1947 seems better to me. As it seems that names are not being recorded, only the figure, I believe that 57,000 is the correct number to record.

[ian16th]

I sent the Express and e-mail, pointing out the error of the photo of a USAAF B-17 to illustrate their article.

I recieved the following reply:

Your message
To: News Desk
Subject: DAD DESERVES THIS MEMORIAL
Sent: Fri, 10 Sep 2010 11:06:21 +0100
was deleted without being read on Mon, 13 Sep 2010 09:01:52 +0100 :=

[ian16th]

A take on the Memorial:
The men of Bomber Command deserve their memorial. And it is politically correct nonsense to suggest otherwise – Telegraph Blogs (http://tinyurl.com/35jexgl)

I hope that TinyURL's work here :ok:

[Hugh Spencer]

In the latest newsletter, the turf cutting ceremony will be sometime in May. Three of the seven "larger than life" figures of an aircrew have been made so I am awaiting more updates.

[PAXboy]

Was good to see this on the news today but cannot immediately find a link to the ceremony.

This is from April
BBC News - Green Park Bomber Command memorial target reached (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13188198)

[Jig Peter]

Nice to see a short piece on Beeb World last night, showing the ceremony of "laying" the foundation stone of the Bomber Command Memorial, with a flypast of the BBMF's Lancaster. Nice, too to hear the sound of Merlins so shortly after the last flypast ...

[Chugalug2]

Pb:
cannot immediately find a link to the ceremony.

Link to the laying of the foundation stone ceremony here:
BBC News - Green Park Bomber Command memorial stone laid (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-13286968)
Between them Robin Gibb and Tony Iveson seem to have said it all. Enough for me anyway.
Good to hear from you again Hugh, and to see that you are still keeping us all informed and inline :ok:

[Al R]

.. Fighter Command heroes keeping the enemy away from our door, but the moment we go into their backyards and kick their dustbins about, people start complaining about it.

(what he said)

Hope you are well Chuggers.

[Jig Peter]

Not really very fer off-thread (I hope) - Working in the Ruhr in the early 1970s, I lived in a street where the gaps (or new-builds) indicated a stick of bombs, leading up towards the local supermarket, which had been building tanks during the "events of the 1940s". The last bomb had got it fair and square... Nice thought, but not so nice for the houses on the way. Made a good supermarket after the war, though.
Inside the factory building heavy industrial gas turbines (not far from where I was living) where I worked, I was told that output after bombing raids hardly decreased, because most bombs that hit it exploded after hitting the corrugated roof, but before hitting the floor. The heavy machinery in use was mounted on 2 metres of concrete and was almost undamaged most of the time, and after a raid was covered with tarpaulins to enable production to continue almost unabated (but see below).
My informant, who had been there at the time, said that despite their ability to go on producing, living with frequent raids (and even more frequent alerts) was "very draining". Add to this all the other stresses of wartime living, and you get the picture of slowly reducing ability to keep up production rates ...
But the Bomber Command planners don't seem to have realised how factories are really built ...

PS - Back on-thread: It really is high time the heroism and endurance of Bomber Command crews in wartime was recognised, despite the post-war afterthoughts and 20/20 hindsight of the carping mimsies.

[Ascot 5999]

At last work is underway, and about time too. A good clip with Robin Gibb and Tony Iveson, but mention must be made of MRAF Sir Michael Beetham (Lancaster pilot aged 20 on 50 Sqn, RAF Skellingthorpe). Sir Michael (88 this year) has been tireless in his quest for this memorial. (He can be seen with his walking stick in the initial shot of the clergy blessing).

May I push his recently published biography, Stay the Distance, written by Peter Jacobs. An excellent read about this last CAS to have seen active service in WW II; a pioneer of in-flight refuelling; holder of a world record for endurance flight; the longest serving CAS since Trenchard; the architect of the Black Buck raids on Stanley;..... etc etc.