Fed up.

[mike172]

Right, I started a new job a week ago working in a hotel. While it's not bad, it's really not what I want to be doing at all.

I love aviation. I always have and I always will. Ask anyone who knows me, they'll say the same. I've known from such a young age that I wanted to fly, and that desire is still burning deep inside.
I've had my PPL for close to two years, paid through another job that I had no interest in doing.

As I type I'm watching a BBC programme about early British aviation.
I've come to the point where I am totally fed up of working crap jobs and I just want to do the thing that makes me truly happy.

There doen't seem to be any help for young people like myself who want to get into aviation. If mummy and daddy have lots of money then you're sorted. But mine aren't. People only seem to be interested in (often) pointless and irrelevant qualifications and not passion and enthusiasm anymore.

I often wish I was born 50 years ago where a pilot could start out by sweeping hangars or cleaning aircraft.

I guess this little rant of mine is... I don't know really.

I'd do anything. Sweep hangars, clean planes, cut the grass at the airfield, make the guys up in the tower cups of tea! Anything.

Can anyone out there help? Anyone out there feel the same?

[gasax]

Humm. There is no doubt you are a 'young person'. Why should there be 'any help'?

If you want to do something then it is about working it out (or not) but actually finding a way to do it. My daughter has similar thoughts (although a different ambition). She seems to think that society should make it easy for her to get what she wants, I counter with the obvious question of why?

What do you offer anyone that would make them want to fund or assist you?

In my daughter's case - the answer is nothing - she just feels that because people have always helped her, they should continue to do so.

People work for me, I'll help. People really impress and help, I'll try a bit more. People are utterly committed and focused - I'll do what I need to - but actually they do most of it.

And that is the point, you can decide. Yes working is a real pest (I know only too well many of my friends are retired and they really upset me!). Working is usually what enables many if not all of the things we do. If you want to wash aircraft and fly for food it is probably possible. Do you really want to do it?

The answers are all in your head not ours - best of luck!

[mike172]

I'm not some bum who expects to be handed everything on a plate. I've worked 11 hour days since I was 16, paid for my licence and I'm proud of that. I'm not scared of hard work. I'd love to work at an airfield cleaning the hangars out. I really would.

However, I seem to be stuck in a rut. I can't get out. I'm asking for some help and advice from people who have experience.

[Chesty Morgan]

Mike have you actually been down to your local airfield?

[mike172]

Chesty, I've tried so many around my area and further away. Not just airfields and airports but also companies that work in the aviation industry.
I heard back from maybe two or three and they were all negative anyway.

I don't know what else to do.

[Stephen Furner]

Fantastic to hear about your interest in a career in aviation there is loads of stuff going on out there that would benefit from some passion and commitment. Don’t live in the past 50 years or 5 years ago learn from it and enjoy a better future.


When I left school and was working as a labourer on building sites and in factories all the older unskilled men I was working with always said to the youngsters “Get a trade”. They were often keen the youngsters should learn from their experiences and get on.


I pass this advice on to you as the gift of one generation to the next. Abandon TV and the internet and get out there and see what’s available. If you see an opening for a trainee to work in an airport or at a small airfield then jump on it.


How about becoming an engineer? What about spending a few years learning to be a member of one of the fine teams of people who keep aircraft in the sky? Had you thought of an apprenticeship? Do you know what apprentice and other training opportunities there might be at your local airport or airfield?


You are currently working in the hospitality industry by the sound of it. There are hotels on airfields that need people. You could be one of them. What about passengers and their safety. Could you help get an aircraft full of people safely out the exits in the case of an emergency. Do you have the ability to calm someone who scared of flying but has travel as a passenger? If so, there may be airlines that need you for their cabin crew.


It’s a big world out there the 50 years ago people have had their turn now it’s yours. :ok:

[Pace]

Mike

I really do feel for you! Now is not a good time in aviation. The one ray of hope is that because of the huge financial cost of getting into aviation I know the influx of pilots coming in at the bottom is fast drying up with dire warnings to the airline industry of a huge potential shortage of pilots in the future.

I have friends who have funded type ratings by selling everything from the home to the girlfriend so if you are determined enough you will find a way.
Depending on what flying you want to do at least get to a point where you are employable ie a CPL and Multi IR and then NETWORK. Get your face known offer to help, offer to fly right seat for free just to get some flying.
Make your goal a frozen ATP and then look at companies like CTC for type ratings to get into the Airlines.

Now is an awful time but hopefully 2-3 years away pilots will be in hot demand.

Pace

[Foxy Loxy]

Just a suggestion....

How about getting yourself an A/G licence and doing the radio at your (or a) local airfield? It won't cost you much, you'll be in the environment and earning a few quid to boot. Be sociable and keen, and you might just make a useful contact here and there. At that level, no airfield operator is going to mind if your ambition ultimatley is to fly. You're a useful stop-gap.

Ten years ago, I worked at an airfield doing just that (my own story is an aside, I'm an ATCO now), and I met I lovely young chap of 16 who washed aircraft to pay for his lessons. He now flies B757s.

One thing I have learnt about getting on in this industry - much of it is about being personable and taking opportunities where/when they occur. The rest of it is down to you and your ability and determination to succeed.

Good luck :ok:


PS. CAP 452 refers ;)

[Stephen Furner]

There seem to be a few www sites of companies working in airports or partnering with airports to deliver services that have contact points for jobs Vacancies (http://www1.menziesaviation.com/vacancies.htm)

Might be worth making contact and seeing what they can offer and getting your name known if a job comes up.

[Pilot DAR]

What Foxy Loxy said...

That's how I did it, and it was only 35 years ago... It would be unfair to you to assume that similar opportunities are convenient for you, but a lot of us did it that way. I spent a lot of time cleaning the undersides of aircraft for free, in the hope I would be taken flying. I was...

An author once said "luck favours the prepared". Stay prepared Mike...

[sternone]

There is never going to be a time when they will have a shortage of pilots.

An ATPL is just a bus driver in the sky.

Go for a career where you can afford private flying. You will be more happy in your life.

Life's changed, adept, try to do something. And oh, please stop thinking that everybody who is successful got it from daddy, most of them didn't.

[Justiciar]

I often wish I was born 50 years ago where a pilot could start out by sweeping hangars or cleaning aircraft.

I think it still happens like this sometimes and I know one lad who went from hanger sweeping to the RAF.

I have to say that I agree to an extent with sternone, though I am a) too old by far to be a commercial pilot anyway and b) in a very well paid non aviation career which funds my flying.

If you really have a passion then you will find a way to do it, many do. A friend of mine went from owning and running an MOT garage to being a commercial pilot, though he borrowed hugely to do it and now flies cargo.

Economically, training commercially makes no sense. Unless you are a captain on long haul for BA you will almost certainly be able to earn more in a non aviation career and the £40,000 to £60,000 it costs you to train will fund a life time of flying what ever you want to fly. Another chap I know went from the RAF to Virgin and flies Airbus on long haul. He hates the tedium of the job as compared to his military flying and being away from his family.

There is an element of being a bus driver or systems manager on the long haul, and more interesting local or non routine work is even more difficult to come by. May be you can do something non commercial to give you the buzz you crave, e.g. aerobatics or display pilot. You don't have to earn a living from flying to make it interesting

[b.a. Baracus]

Why not try and get work as a Ramp Agent, I used to and can honestly say it was the best job I ever had. Working outside, getting up close to all kinds of aircraft, speaking to a wide variety of crews, playing your part in getting the aircraft turned around on time, it was fantastic, I actually looked forward to going to work, believe it or not. Its just an example to show you what is out there.

[englishal]

Depends on how much you really want it or whether it is a whim.

A friend of mine took out a loan - can't remember what he said it was for, but didn't tell them it was for flight training. He then scooted off to the USA and did his PPL/CPL/FI ratings and worked for a few years as FI, building the time and a bit of money - enough to convert to JAA when he retuned. Which he did, but it must be fate or something because he entered the US green card lottery and got a green card, so then moved back to the USA and started his very own sucessful aviation business.

Of course he took some risks but it paid off for him. In your case you could possibly convert to JAA with 1500 hrs under your belt and walk into a RHS somewhere in Jarland.

The other way is to save up for the training....that is really what I did, I had a decent job and one day decided to do the PPL. Once the bug had bitten me, over the next 4 years or so I did an IR, ME, then the CPL (all paid for due to my real job). I had views of a career change in 2004 but actually realised I'm happy just flying for fun, which is funded by my present job and I can choose whether to fly or not.

I remember sitting at the end of the runway on Gurnsey in the RHS of a turbo prop (commercial op), the heavens had just opened, the sky was black as night due to the cloud, and there were forecasts of embedded Cb's around. Oh and the weather radar had been taken out for maintenance and there was this sheet of cardboard where it should have been! We took off and were in it fairly quick, and when the captain shouts to everyone in the back to "strap in tight" and tells me we're going to "slow right down, f*cking hell this could be nasty", then I must admit I really wished I was sat on my sofa drinking a nice warm cup of coffee!

[rojread]

You might check out survey companies. With decent computer skills you can get slotted in as a systems operator with some training if you work at it. (In the old days it used to be photographic skills or good map-reading but not now with GPS and digital crap). The hours are long, seven day weeks common, the overseas opportunities (in some miserable places) plenty, the pay is average but allowances often make up. If you are prepared to be 'hands on' as an all-round crew member (or an extra spanner) it can be a pretty interesting career.

Mind you, written applications from 'wannabes' get left lying around. Go visit a company or look out for a survey crew and make yourself known. When I was working full time (retired after 50 yrs in survey) I brought in several FNGs after airfield chats. Good luck.

[plymouth71]

Student loans? Bursary applications? Employment programs offered by your government?

Another suggestion is working and saving every penny and consider coming to North America for your training. The school I attend has pilots from everywhere, including india, france, Britain. The cost is fair and The training as good as or better than most schools. It's in Canada. We have many small airports and aerodromes.

[sandbagsteve]

Mike, I only wish I knew as firmly as you do, at your age, what you want to do with your life... hell, I just passed 40 and only really got a firm grip on aviation in the past year.

It made me smile reading your original post. Anyone who has funded their own PPL at your age is obviously not shy of hard work - so please don't be discouraged by some of the comments. In my experience, the one thing younger people lack most is an aptitude for applying themselves in a way that will help then get to where they want to be. The worls is more complicated, so as someone else said - Network! By sticking your face briefly into every aviation company is probably not going to help much. You need to become a familiar sight to people for them to win hearts and minds. So, pick your fave spots, and frequent them more often... get to know the people... Take a genuine interest, don't just come across as the over-enthusiastic guy who wants to carry someone's toolbox - that just puts folks off.

I'm rambling... but don't give up... You sound very dedicated, and genuinely enthusiastic (you must be, a PPL is no small thing for someone on a limited budget). Good luck!

[foxmoth]

There doen't seem to be any help for young people like myself who want to get into aviation. If mummy and daddy have lots of money then you're sorted. But mine aren't. People only seem to be interested in (often) pointless and irrelevant qualifications and not passion and enthusiasm anymore.

I often wish I was born 50 years ago where a pilot could start out by sweeping hangars or cleaning aircraft.


Well Mike, you might think things are hard now, but 25 years ago I was in a very similar position to yourself with no rich parents to pay for things - and things are not really that different these days - I ended up driving a fork lift working a 7 day week, 13 hours a day most days, Saturday I would miss an hours work so I could actually get some flying in (Sundays was double time so not taking time off then), in those days you did not have the airlines taking on Cadets and putting low hour pilots straight onto Jets, you started flying something like an Aztec (No GPS in those days) on the hardest ops there were and worked your way up to Airlines via Turboprops. I am now an A330 Captain, but still instruct and fly for fun, it can be done, you just have to keep at it.

[Zulu Alpha]

Why not put an advert up at your local flying club(s) offering to wash and clean aircraft. You might get some takers. You might have to do it for very little money but if you get known for doing a careful, thorough and reliable job then the word will get around and there might also be some free flights.

Once you get known for being reliable then who knows what else you might get asked to do.

This should fit in with working at a hotel to pay the bills.

The biggest problem is deciding to do it!!

Good luck

ZA

[moonym20]

Mike, I also understand where your coming from, been there, done that.. almost still am (!)

The old phrase when there is a will there is a way springs to mind. Whats your rough location? as suggested, if your near an airport make a start there and try to find a job where at least your working alongside aviation. If your not near an airport then an airfield, you already have your license so you already know somewhere. Spend some spare time around there, help out and get to know people.

The people you meet and the knowledge you gain from both scenarios will help you further. More-so at an airport, at almost every FBO i go through there is always some young person there on their way towards doing their ATPL.

What sort of career in aviation do you want? if you want to fly the things then what sort of area of flying do you want to do? i.e. airline's, corporate, Military etc...

It takes a long time to crack into the industry it's no good people telling you it takes years to do but thats the truth. Don't loose sight of your goal, if people can see that you want it bad enough they will help ;)

Good Luck!

[rgsaero]

Mike -
I'm a very fortunate person. Retired, having worked my nuts off for 43 years both in employment and self-employment, I have some resources which allow me to fly. I only (re-started) in aviation at age 50. Young, having spent 3 years as an engineering apprentrice at DH I volunteered for the Navy Air Arm and of 247 entrants was one of 3 shortlisted for service (flying helos or Vixens) only then to discover at medical that I was marginally colour blind (not enough to compromise my PPL now). I forgot about aviation and got on with life 'til I could afford it.

When I COULD afford it and now flying 50 - 70 hrs/yr, I recall my Father's (brief) life; he couldn't cope with being articled to an accountant and "ran away" to Croydon, got a job carrying pots of paint etc, learned to be a fitter, rigger and then paid out of his meagre wages for tuition. He was good enough to fly all over Europe for General Aircraft as a CPL (he was then the youngest ever to earn his "B" licence). He then went to Hawker as a test pilot in '38 and died test flying in '42 when a Typhoon broke up beneath him.

Here are two very different stories. They tell you that you must decide what you most want to do. If you want to earn a living in aviation the only way may well be to sacrifice all to do it. If on the otherhand its not the be-all and end-all, do something else to earn and then fly when you can afford it.

Those are the choices which many professionals (and amateurs) have made, and you can make as well!

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Mike172,

I learned to fly in 1959/1960, i.e. 49 years ago. If you looked in the flying magazines then, you would have seen classified ads in which frustrated young men were advertising (desperately) for a sponsor willing to finance their training for the CPL+ME+IR.

I am skeptical about this 'start by washing aeroplanes and end up an airline pilot' idea. As a teenager, I attended one place all day practically every Saturday and Sunday for the best part of a year and worked about the place for nothing just to get some flying. They said they would give me some airtime when it was quiet and there was an aeroplane and an instructor available. As I recall, at first I got perhaps three flights in a month of about half an hour each. Then as the months went by I got less and less and less.

Eventually, I found that I had worked every weekend full time for six or seven weeks and been given no flying at all in return. I packed it in. Within a couple of weeks they had another sucker. Some people do get on this way, but I suspect most don't. I would say if you do this, then at least keep a record of how much time you put in and how much flying you get in return.

There have only ever been two royal roads into commercial flying, one is via regular service in the military for about 12 years minimum, the other via company sponsorship. So far as I know, there are few if any sponsorships at present because the companies are short of cash and there is no shortage of people with the requisite licences who have 'self-sponsored' at ruinous cost.

Don't bet on a future pilot shortage being any help. In 1959 British European Airways had a lot of pilots retire over a relatively short period. Did they foresee this and train up youngsters in good time? Absolutely not. They hired 26 qualified Canadian pilots and brought them over to work in the UK.

So what can you do? If, as I suspect, you are still in your teens, then join the ATC and work from the outset on getting the requisite qualifications for a flying scholarship. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the FS gives you 20 hours of training ABSOLUTELY FREE: (now that's got to be worth about £2,800). I believe to do an FS you have to have the same qualifications as are required for pilot entry into the RAF, plus some ATC certificate or other. (Anybody out there know what the latest educational requirements and flying hours are for the FS)?

If you don't yet have the qualifications for the FS, then you can at least do a gliding course and get your BGA 'B' Certificate. I found gliding shortened the task of learning the skills to fly powered aircraft and I still find my glider pilot's knowledge of air mass behaviour useful even today flying a Pa28.

If you really take to gliding, you can join a club, get a BGA 'Silver C' certificate, convert it into a power PPL with relatively few power hours and then having built a few more power hours become a tug pilot for the gliding club. All this builds skill and flying hours.

The next thing you can do, when you are too old for the ATC or if you go on to university, is to choose a university that has access to a university air squadron. Don't leave this too long, however, as there has been talk of closing all the UASs because not enough people have been going on to take up careers in the RAF. There, you should get considerable high-quality flying training at not cost at all.

Well that's my two penneth,

Good luck Kid,

Broomstick.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Mike172,

I have just been reading the earlier posts and realised you probably aren't still in your teens. My apologies for not realising this. However, what I say in my concluding paragraphs about the university air squadrons still holds.

Good luck,

Broomstick.

[mike172]

Thanks for all the replies, some really great advice here, so thanks a lot.
I would love to reply individually to each but I don't have the time!
I've got a lot to think about now.

And yes Broomstick, I'm 21 now!

[foxmoth]

Further to my earlier post - it was 24 before I finally got my CPL, then there was a slump and it then took me another 18 months or so before getting a reasonable job (Air taxi) and it was not until I was 30 that I finally joined an Airline flying Shorts 360 and 2+ more years before starting on Jets so you have time yet:ok:

[jamie2004]

Mike, are you from london/south east? if so please email me your CV ([email protected]).

i work for an aviation organisation at a GA airfield that may be able to offer you a job as ground handler/towing large bizjets.
regards.

[A.Agincourt]

Mike 172 - I personally know 4 commercial pilots - currently employed and secure in that employment - who set off with pretty much a similar predicament as you. One was a milkman, one a builder another a nurse and another a 'grunt' in the military. All of them felt the pull to the sky and not a single one got any help at all. As another has already said, that mindset is the curse of the younger generations who all seem to want life handed to them on a plate or otherwise negate the sheer effort it takes to get what you want. Personally, I left school with very little interest in aviation and that didn't change until I was in fact the same age as you are now. It took me 5 years to gain a better education before I could get a job that would pay me enough to enable my goal to be reached. It took me 10 years before I managed it.

A friend of mine drove tucks across the outback in Australia for 5 years to pay for a license and cleaned other peoples crap [literally] for as many years before that to afford to go to Australia! The tales go on but the message is the same for all. There is no easy way and there is no better way. You have to work at it, sacrifice everything for your dream and be prepared to go a good distance before you come close. Should you make it then all that effort will ensure you make a decent job of it because all things considered you will have invested so much of yourself by that time, that you will have accumulated the dedication, integrity and attitude to make a successful career of it.

I wish you success, like the man said "you can do anything you want. If you really want it.".

Best Wishes

[mike172]

Cheers Jamie, I've just sent you an email.

I'm worried that my chances of finding employment in the future may be hurt by working a 'rubbish job' now. I worked almost five years in a discount sports shop and I always feel bad about putting it on my CV.

[M14_P]

Pace, that was a key point. Mike, what do YOU want from aviation. As you have seen from other's posts, there are many different methods and routes to take, paths to carve etc.
I am only getting there myself, but just want to tell you quickly about how I got started. I have always had a passion for old aeroplanes, antique, warbird etc etc. Since I sat in the Spitfire when I was 6. Ok, anyway, haven't we all done that?
I took flying lessons before school finished, worked as cleaner for 4 years to do my PPL and CPL (PPL took me 2 years part time CPL took just over 2 years also part time). I got some background in a mountainous environment with my CPL which was great, very valuable. But ultimately, I didn't/don't really have a motivation to do your typical path to the airlines. I used my experience in the cleaning industry to setup my own window cleaning business 5 years ago and funded my aerobatic training with a combination of jobs, barman/porter/concierge/pumping gas (that was also my employment at the end of my CPL).

I got some tailwheel time and ended up buying a share ina yak 52 which had been a long time ambition (I remember watching them fly at airshows when I was 12 thinking I want to be those guys one day).

Flew the Yak for a couple of years which was all valuable stuff, met lots of people and had some great exposure in the scene I'd love to be more involved with in teh future - bloody long way to go. In the mean time I applied for and got a job flying a Pitts Special for a commercial aerobatic provider - did that for 12 months, had a go in the bosses' Single seater, loved that, bought a single seater with a good friend and engineer.

I have just started flying tiger moths doing joyrides. Did my instructor rating earlier this year which was financed through my contracting company and am doing part time instructing in a couple of different machines. Also doing Pitts training on request.

Ok, so to the point, what do I want out of aviation? What I want is to compete at the Advanced aerobatic world champs in years to come and instruct in my own Yak 52. These two seperate projects, with a combination of more tiger flying and other types too hopefully to fly ww1 fighters. The thing is, I am as far off to achieving these goals as I was when I was 12 but you always are. Keep that goal in mind, keep the focus and be determined enough to make it happen.
I worked **** jobs for a long time, but at no point did I not know exactly what I wanted from this game. I have only limited operational experience to be honest but I have seen enough to know how harsh the industry can be if you don't watch what's happening around you.

What a big pile of nonsense! Just wanted to tell ya this as I get asked by young fellas about this sort of stuff, I am in my mid 20s but hell, I was the same when I was in my teens and remember only too well trying to figure out the enormous gap between flying solo in a Tomahawk to flying a Yak 52 at an International Airshow. All I could think of, was flying aerobatics and going to all the airshows that were on. I read Paddy Wagstaff's book 'Fire and Air', I first saw The Battle of Britain movie when I was 6, I have read countless bio's from pilots who were alot younger than me and fought in WW2. Nothing, absolutely nothing has changed. Just ask my fiancee! :8:)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

People only seem to be interested in (often) pointless and irrelevant qualifications
Umm, perhaps if such qualifications are what is needed to get a job then the point and relevance of them is that they get you a job, they're hardly "pointless and irrelevant", surely?

Maybe if you had acquired some of these "pointless and irrelevant" qualifications you'd now be earning four or five times what you can get in the hotel, and would be better positioned to get into aviation?

[mike172]

Maybe you're right Gertrude but I can't change the past. I was an idiot when I was younger, I didn't realise the effect it would on me in the future.

What sometimes pisses me off is that people put qualifications above enthusiasm, passion and commitment. Is somebody with a degree automatically a better candidate than me? It sometimes seems so.

[Zulu Alpha]

Is somebody with a degree automatically a better candidate than me?

Probably yes if you are looking for a doctor, an engineer a lawyer.......etc.

It does show that they have applied themselves, taken out a student loan and lived on not much money for 3-4 yrs while they studied.... I'd call that enthusiasm, passion and commitment.

You need to think how you can demonstrate similar enthusiasm, passion and commitment to someone in your CV or interview, otherwise they will always be ahead of you.

Generally I take personal recomendation very highly when interviewing someone, so going into a job interview with a recomendation is highly worthwhile.

[Shunter]

Is somebody with a degree automatically a better candidate than me?Absolutely not, but regardless of their area of study one has to bear in mind that they've demonstrated a certain level of commitment and tenacity to get their degree. You need to do the same. I don't particularly give a rat's ass about qualifications when I employ people, but there's got to be something which demonstrates their ability to go above and beyond.

When I was your age I was still dossing around in bedsits, smoking dope and expecting to become a rock star. 10 and a bit years later I've crawled my way up the greasy pole to the point where I'm in a senior management job with CPL and plane.

It can't and won't be handed to you on a plate, so get your head down, live like a pauper and get that money put away. I very clearly remember thinking there was no way it would ever happen, but if you put the effort in it will.

[mike172]

It does show that they have applied themselves, taken out a student loan and lived on not much money for 3-4 yrs while they studied.... I'd call that enthusiasm, passion and commitment.



Okay, fair enough, maybe I just have a dim view of students thanks to some of my mates who go to uni!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What sometimes pisses me off is that people put qualifications above enthusiasm, passion and commitment.
Actually an employer is interested in none of those other than as proxies for "can this person do the job and make me a profit better than any of the other candidates?". Once Upon A Time I took a punt and hired someone keen who didn't have the usually expected qualifications - never again!!

[mike172]

Judging from some of the replies, people seem to think I expect everything handed to me on a plate. If you knew me you'd know this isn't the case at all. I've not had it mega hard, I admit, but I have worked my arse off working a **** job for peanuts to pay for flying lessons.
So when people insinuate that I'm lazy and want everything handed to me, that annoys me. Yeah I want advice and any help would be great!, who wouldn't want that?

[Miserlou]

Hi Mike,
It is nice to hear some enthusiasm from a future airline pilot. Too bad there aren't more like that.
I started as a hangar rat, extra hand for the engineers and refueller and got a good few hours from owners and club members for cleaning and all the usual odd jobs. I left college to do that for 50 squid a week and half an hour in the book. Excellent experience.
But it still took 10 years, also with other jobs like waiting, bartending, washing up, laying asphalt with a gipsy family and changing nappies on handicapped people in the middle of the night, and so on, to get a CPL.
I begged, and eventually borrowed from the bank to get it all the exams and flying done.

Might have been quicker if I had finished college and got a proper job to pay for it all. I will be finished paying in a few years. That'll be nearly 15 years from CPL to debt free.

So, as I once heard Richard Briers advise wannabe actors, don't do it. Have fun enjoy doing it for fun. If you can't do anything else.... give it everything you've got.

Don't worry about the commitment bit. 5 years in one job at your age is an achievement.

You will love it when you get here and you will value it all the more for the struggle.

Good luck.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Mike172,

Reading some of the posts here is making me feel uneasy.

Guys have been recounting what crap jobs they have had to do and for how many years they have had to do them just in order to get that commercial licence. Don't get me wrong, these people deserve the UTMOST respect and GENUINE admiration. Every one of these people THOROUGHLY DESERVES the success he/she has achieved.

However, when reading each story I can't help feeling that it is like listening to the success story of the one sperm that made it into the egg, when hundreds of thousands of others died in the attempt and are in no position to contribute to any discussion on procreation.

Well I'm going to have the guts to say it: I'm one of those who never made the grade, despite being very determined, working bloody hard, and spending thousands of pounds in the attempt. (And I only wanted to be a club instructor). I won't go into the reasons why because if I did, I should be writing all day.

The point I wish to make is that very hard work and determination are not enough on their own, as posts above seem to imply. Certainly, they are vitally important, but alone they do not guarantee success. In addition, you need luck and academic ability (especially being good at passing exams, even in subects you are utterly indifferent to) as well.

It is relevant if someone has managed to get dozens of 'A' levels. This is because this is a rough measure of the probability of success in the CPL/ATPL groundschool exams. This is because when you come to do ATPL groundschool, you will find that you have to pass 14 exams, with only four attempts allowed at any subject, and only six attempts overall, and to complete the lot within 18 months - and they're not easy. Fall short of this and you have to do THE WHOLE LOT all over again; and that is very time consuming and expensive. ('Nice little earner for the CAA too; I suggest you take a look at their exam fees)!

Very little of the stuff you have to learn is actually difficult, but the sheer volume of it, and the rate at which it is thrown at you on the course, is like being drenched under a large fire hose. You have to keep up at all costs, even if you are drowning. (In the UK it is about a 22 week course, depending which college you go to, but in France the same syllabus is taught in 2 whole academic years. We had a French student on our course who told us this).

I could write a large thesis about why this level of difficulty is utterly unnecessary. Fully 25% of the syllabus could safely be dumped with no diminution in commercial flying standards. Why for example, are ATPL students, required to learn Astro Navigation, when not even the RAF use it nowadays, or why they have to learn supersonic aerodynamics, when there have only ever been fourteen commercial aeroplanes in the world to which this was relevant and none of them is in service now.

But this would be a waste of time and energy. The fact is that this is how things ARE and this is the situation you will have to confront. This is probably the reason also why academic success is so much valued over enthusiasm and dedication (or even hands-on flying ability).

There is a lot to be said for remaining a private pilot, joining a non-aviation profession that will be cheaper and easier to enter, but pays as much or more money, and spending that money on a share in a really nice aeroplane.

Anyway, I hope this post will rebalance the discussion.

Nevertheless, if you decide to go ahead with it GOOD LUCK, I hope you make it.

Broomstick.

[CS-CCO]

Good post from Broomstick, assertive.

[M14_P]

It is such a shame that seemingly so few pilots put any value on the advantages of owning a share in an aeroplane, no matter what it is and what you use it for.
It is such a great way to get around and put some affordable consolidation in your logbook post flight test for example - if you are after more hours. Or simply a great way to see the country and enjoy the priviledges of your PPL, in the knowledge that you are saving huge amounts of money by not hiring aeroclub planes.

I just can't believe how few syndicates there are around. It appears to be more a thing for older pilots whom are doing it for the fun of it, whereas the younger more serious flyers are far too busy trying to get a job in industry while over looking a great opportunity to team up and get a plane between a small group. Instead of wasting money doing your MEIR while doing your CPL, use that money to buy a tidy Cub or 172. Pay half the hourly rate you pay at an aeroclub, build up the kitty by flying it, take friends up, see the country, and above all, ENJOY yourself. :)

m14