If we start from the understanding that the first officer on a commercial passenger jet holds the same licence and is equally well qualified to fly the aircraft as the captain (a fact that surprises many passengers for whom the concept of PF/PNF is a misnomer), could someone explain to me the 'justification' for having approaches/landings that can only be flown by the captain?

Does it boil down to experience? That is, the approach is a bit tricky and should be flown by the more experienced pilot? And am I correct in thinking that Innsbruck is an example of this?

Thanks
Nick

Yes, its (mainly) down to experience and the fact that normally the Captain has more. Places that have very short runways, unusual local weather conditions making the approach a handful etc are all places where sometimes they have Capt's only approaches. It can differ between airlines and fleets though.

Somewhere like Innsbruck will always be a capt's only for any airline and fleet for the obvious reasons!

It's the captain's aircraft, captain's flight and captain's first officer.. if something goes wrong its his bollox on the line!

Airfields are typically categorised for difficulty. Cat A is for airfields where there are few threats. B for airfields which have threats and difficulties which make them more challenging and Cat C is for airfields with significant threats and difficulties. A good example of a Cat C airfiled is Kathmandhu with a very steep VOR approach due to terrrain.

Most airlines stipulate the Captain must be the operating pilot at Cat C airfields, and as a Captain myself - I would feels very wary about trusting someone else when it's my nuts on the chopping block!

If we start from the understanding that the first officer on a commercial passenger jet holds the same licence and is equally well qualified to fly the aircraft as the captain

This is not necessarily true. There is an experience requirement to obtain an "ATPL" which you need to command a commercial jet. These days new F/O's join airlines with a "frozen" ATPL which when they have sufficient experience can be "unfrozen" by the authorities.

In the past, it was only necessary to hold a CPL to fly as an F/O on a large aircraft and you needed to take additional exams (and have the relevant experience) to upgrade your CPL to an ATPL. Some F/O's are still flying with only a CPL having had "grandfather rights" granted to them when the rules changed.

I understand that insurance companies offer reduced premiums if airlines dictate that some of the more challenging approaches are flown by the Captain (whether that's due to the airport or due to meteorological conditions - strong crosswinds etc - prevailing at the time).

the first officer on a commercial passenger jet holds the same licence and is equally well qualified to fly the aircraft as the captain
Define 'equally'? First Officer limits are more restrictive for crosswinds, takeoffs in fog more restrictive. Approaches into various airports more restrictive (Chambery for one, LCY as well as Innsbruck), and Cat 2 and 3 approaches are Captain PF. Such restrictions are not a personal insult, but the copilot has to develop his skills and experience, so it's not really a case of 'anything a captain can do, a copilot can do'!

With the 'monitored approach' SOP as used in some airlines, the landing pilot is not the one who flies the approach, therefore captains often give away the sector to a 'challenging' airfield to the F/O. That means that the captain will fly the descent and approach and the F/O will take over (typically at around 1000ft) for the landing.

In a previous airline (that didn't use the 'monitored approach' SOP), I used to fly to Innsbruck every weekend during the winter in a B.737-400. Memory is a bit hazy, but I'm sure we used to let the F/Os fly the sectors into (and out of) LOWI. They would do the descent, approach and landing. Don't remember it causing any particular problems.

In some ways, letting the F/O fly a 'challenging' approach unloads the captain to enable him to monitor the big picture and cross-check approach progress.

All the above assumes that the F/O is trained to the same level as the captain (as was the case at LOWI: a three-hour sim detail followed by three 'visits'). The captain can then have confidence in the F/O's knowledge of the procedure and it also enables a briefing to take place on a 'level playing field', where both crew members have a similar idea of what to expect.

The briefing is an opportunity for the pilot flying the approach to explain exactly how and when he/she will handle the autopilot, configuration, etc. That way there should be minimal 'surprises' later on, or situations when the monitoring pilot is wondering just when the flying pilot is going to select flaps or gear, etc.

Totally agree that the captain is in overall control and that individual circumstances have to be taken into account.

Have you been to FNC - Funchal Madeira.

If you :mad: up there you will know about it!!

Capt's only landing always.

Q. If the captain becomes incapacitated does the FO fly to an alternate airport, regardless of how close to the (Capt only landing) airport (and medics) they are ?

Thanks
Matt

Q. If the captain becomes incapacitated does the FO fly to an alternate airport, regardless of how close to the (Capt only landing) airport (and medics) they are ?

That's a judgement call Matt, and that's what pilot's are paid for by and large. You would need to take numerous factors into account. Being close to the restrictive airport may and often isn't the only variable. It probably is in a place like FNC because your alternates may now be further out of reach in terms of time.

Other variables will of course be weather, facilities available, time available (to descend, set up the aircraft and familiarise, brief yourself on a plan of action, consider fuel burn etc). You will be considering all this as single pilot, whilst at the same time dealing with ATC (having either made a Pan or Mayday call) while additionally having to deal with cabin crew/medical personnel attending to your incapacitated skipper.

In our network those restrictive airports (ie not only Captains only landing, but in terms of their location, type of approach available etc) I keep a few considerations to hand. A type of 'what would happen if...' type of scenario. Just like a Captain incapacitation. You could also apply it to any type of onboard medical emergency and indeed mechanical failure/malfunction. Time will always be a factor, however there are many other variables.

So back to your original question. I wouldn't totally regard the fact that an airfield is 'Captains only' as the primary deciding factor because your other options available at that moment in time may dictate a better course of action. However if the guys life is seriously under threat, you will need to get the aircraft on the ground as quickly but as safely as possible. This may equate to the restrictive aiport being your prime option. Some may argue that the risk you are taking here is that you are attempting a landing at an airfield where you, as an FO, are restricted from doing. Therefore you are placing everyone else at risk. However you try living with that when the coriner tells you that the captain proabably would have lived if you decided not to divert to a less restrictive airport. Now my airline doesn't operate to either INN or FNC, however considering the airports that we do operate to and which are 'Captain's only,' if I had little or no other option I would land. No question.

This sounds quite interesting. But putting insurance premiums aside etc, how does the FO or SFO get practice on that particular airport in prepaation for Captaincy.

If indeed there are reasons why it is Capatain only, then surely one of those reasons is due to the difficulty of the approach /landing. Does this meant that a Trainee Captain needs to fly with a Senior Captain to that particular airport just so he can get "signed off"?

I guess I'm coming at it from the angle that if an airport is Captain only, then a FO with X amount of thousand hours on type will not have a great time on his first landing as a Captain becasue he never had the practice.

I don't know if Kai Tak was a Captain only but surely an FO with 10'000 hours who was promoted to Captain would struggle with Kai Tak if he had never flew the approach previously in his career.

But putting insurance premiums aside etc, how does the FO or SFO get practice on that particular airport in prepaation for Captaincy.


Usually on the simulator.

I guess I'm coming at it from the angle that if an airport is Captain only, then a FO with X amount of thousand hours on type will not have a great time on his first landing as a Captain becasue he never had the practice. - as D to A says, exactly the same as the Captain on his first landing there! He/she will, however, have been briefed and seen a few which will help.

- as D to A says, exactly the same as the Captain on his first landing there! He/she will, however, have been briefed and seen a few which will help.

Not only that, but for some Cat C fields there is a simulator exercise, and (in my experience) the first visit for a Capt being cleared will be under the supervision of a training Capt.

Fact: All approaches are the captains unless he decides to let the first officer fly it.

One of the most challenging aspects for a captain is judging what you can allow a first officer, you may not have met before, to do. Clearly safety is a factor but we all have a responsibility to challenge the people who will one day be captains themselves. Like it or not we are all involved in the training of the captains of the future. They will, after all, spend more time flying with line pilots than training captains over their career.

I believe LCY is a Captain-Only approach..:ok:

Quote:Q. If the captain becomes incapacitated does the FO fly to an alternate airport, regardless of how close to the (Capt only landing) airport (and medics) they are ?

That's a judgement call Matt, and that's what pilot's are paid for by and large. You would need to take numerous factors into account. Being close to the restrictive airport may and often isn't the only variable. It probably is in a place like FNC because your alternates may now be further out of reach in terms of time.

This could be relevant even if its the FO who is incapacitated.

Not all airlines fly capt. only approaches into LCY

Guys, thanks for the reply but the point I am making (albeit poorly) is that I can't see any difference.

Just because overnight, an FO (who previously was not allowed to land at Airport XXXX) has been given a slip of paper that shows he is now a Captain makes no differerence. If all it takes is a simulator sign-off, then why couldn't he/she do this when he was an FO.

I just cant see why a "Captain Only landing" (which is designated as such due to safety purposes) remains when a newly promoted Captain can just jump in an d be allowed to land there having only "observed" previously.

the first visit for a Capt being cleared will be under the supervision of a training Capt.

this sounds more likely

There may be some, but I cannot say that I have ever seen a brief for a "Captains only" approach? The restriction is usually related to the actual take off and landing that are required to be accomplished by the Captain. Examples being, Innsbruck, Skiathos. Samos, etc. In poor visibility and cloudbase, monitored approaches are often necessary that require the pilot carrying out the approach, to be different from the pilot carrying out the landing. It follows that in restricted weather conditions, where the brief restricts the landing to "Captains only" it will always be the F/O who carries out the approach.

It would also be unusual for a new Captain to be checked into a category "C" airports with these requirements, until such time as they had amassed some experience in the role. However the certification checks for any particular category "C" airport would still need to be complied with in full, irrespective of the fact the new Captain had previously operated into that airport on a regular basis.

Lets not forget that its entirely possible for the F/O to have more total time, or more time on type, or more experience at the airfield in question than the Captain. Its even possible for all 3 conditions to be true.

A wise commander makes use of the skills of their subordinates.

Not all airlines fly capt. only approaches into LCY

I think this one allows First Officers to have the occasional go:

YouTube - Hard landing near crash PART 1/3 - London City Airport - IS THE PILOT A HERO OR IDIOT ? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcS89Ktbxeo)

:p :p :p :p

it will always be the F/O who carries out the approach.
- SOP dependent?A wise commander makes use of the skills of their subordinates. - but is wary of contravening company regulations?

There is no need for a Cat C airfield 'first visit' to be flown with a TCpt UNLESS the airline OM specifies that. INN and CMF did not require such in BA

From my experience, captain only approaches are combination of experience and economics. New FOs on the line need to build up experience and therefore are not (themselves) confident to carry out CAT 3 airport approaches until they have gained some reasonable time on the aircraft.

From the economic point of view, captains need to be signed off by a training captain to CAT 3 airports after a number of approaches. As training captains are an expensive resource the purse usually stretches only as far captains to train them.

FOs can carry out monitored approaches to CAT 3 airports, so can fly down to a pre-determined hand over point that has been briefed previously.

As to CAT II and CAT III approaches, again, talking from my experience, they are flown by the FO whilst the captain looks out in order to pick up early visual clues in the low visibility conditions in order to be able to take control of the aircraft at the decision point.

If no contact is established then the FO flies the go-around.

In our company a captain needs to have 12 months experience as a captain before being able to be checked out on a cat C runway. All Cat C runways need checkrides before you can operate there so not even every captain can land there.

Back before JAA there was no restriction on F/O's in most cases ( in our company) so if a qualified (checked out) capt decided to let a F/O land it was his perogative. Now we are not even allowed to let them do the takeoffs in most Cat C airports.

I think it's partly due to the increase in regulations in general and awareness of being sued should the proverbial hit the fan. Plus we have a lot of co's who come straight from school compared to 10-15 yrs ago so it takes a while for them to build the experience to cope with possible very tricky circumstances.

Last but not least (with us) the change from 737-300s to mostly 800s means the higher approach speeds (& turning circle) make it more difficult to get into Samos or Madeira etc. I have 13,000+ hrs on 737s and am often glad when turning onto the platform after yet another "sporty" approach - though I always enjoy it, it does keep you on your toes!

Ladies and Gentlemen- thanks very much for your informed replies to my initial post - it is greatly appreciated!

Nick