Jaa Atpl conversion to Nz CPL question

[eph6]

I was hoping someone could help. i need to convert my existing Jaa Atpl MEIR back into a Nz cpl MEir. I've 1100 hrs with most of those instructing in Uk. I'm A kiwi living in Ireland. Can Anyone advise on what I need to do? Thanks!

[remoak]

Very simple.

Go to the ASL website (Aviation Services Ltd (http://www.aviation.co.nz)) and click on "Licence Assessments->Pilots->Other Overseas". Read the pdf and do what it says. Easy!

[DeltaT]

Make sure you do your research first.
Also look at the option of converting to the Australian ATPL first and then TTRMA it to NZ.

[remoak]

The only advantage to going the Aussie route is that it allows you to bypass the ATPL flight test. However you will have to do Aussie ATPL Law and the Instrument Rating Law exam.

If you have a job organised in NZ, the ATPL flight test can be done as part of the company recurrency check. So the only advantage to going the TTMRA route is if you just want the ATPL without having a job.

[DeltaT]

OK. If you go directly to the NZ licence, you need 1000hrs post ATPL issue flown in that country (EU/UK) before NZ will recognise it. Further, with that recurrency check in NZ, if you get one, you will need a CAA examiner onboard/in the sim (whos paying?), also if you don't have said job then your next way is on the Mojave (type rating $ and examiner test $) at Wanganui which is just over the 5700kg weight break that is required.

IF you have the Auz CPLIR, (which you TTRMA off your NZ CPLIR), then when you convert to the Auz ATPL from your UK ATPL you only need to do Auz ATPL law and nothing more, you have already ticked the boxes for IR Law and the IR test without ever having done the Auz version because you already have said Auz licence at CPL level!
Then when your Auz ATPL is issued you TTRMA it to the NZ ATPL. I reckon thats cheaper!! Depends on your situation and time available...

However, Eph I see on your older posts you have a frozen ATPL?, in which case you can only convert to a CPL. The ATPL subjects do not count.

[minimum_wage]

Like DeltaT said.
I know a guy with a jaa atpl(f) going through that process and it sucks. But if you wanna come home then do it. Or think about the Aussie ATPL's and use the TTRMA. Other wisewise do the NZ exams. Once into the links you will have to wait for a command with eagle to do your atpl or on your second or third check with Nelson you can do it. Not sure about Cook. I would think you would still need 1500 hrs TT for J* and Pac Blue even with a couple hundred hours jet time.
Either way sounds like you will need to do some exams.

[eph6]

thanks for all the advice. That clears a few things up.

['Roger Badger']

Thanks for the golden info Delta T, I hope it still applies. I'm about to find out.

Given that I have a JAA ATPL and a NZ CPL/IR, if I understand correctly, the best way for me to do this is:

1) Use the TTMRA to convert my NZ CPL to the Aussie one.
2) With an Aussie CPL in hand, conversion from JAA-ATPL to Aussie-ATPL only needs the Aussie ATPL Law exam.

That sounds good to me! :ok:

Cheers

[remoak]

Yes, Delta T is correct, I'm just in the middle of doing the same thing.

[c100driver]

I was hoping someone could help. i need to convert my existing Jaa Atpl MEIR back into a Nz cpl MEir. I've 1100 hrs with most of those instructing in Uk. I'm A kiwi living in Ireland. Can Anyone advise on what I need to do? Thanks!


eph6 as DeltaT says with only 1100 hours TT, you do not have an ATPL as the ICAO requirement is 1500 hours. Your UK ATPL subjects will not be recognised in NZ. I would guess that Aussie will not either. So you will have to complete either all the NZ or Aussie subjects and if you go the NZ route complete a flight test.

[Sqwark2000]

Eph6,

Your original post said "...back into a NZ CPL MEIR..." does this mean you have held a NZ CPL before??

If so then, I'd say you would only need to do a CPL law exam and CPL flight test to get it up and running again. If you haven't "used" your NZ license for 5 yrs or more (i.e maintained minimum BFR currency requirements).

Otherwise, I'm none the wiser if you haven't been issued a NZ CPL before.

Cheers


S2K

[ZK-IWI]

G'day! (pretty chuffed about having just joined the forums hehe)

I hope it's okay to resurrect old topics, I have just gone through the painful (and expensive!) NZCPL conversion process, some questions remain about validating the IR. If I understand the rules (AC61-17) correctly, more exams to start with before you can apply for a flight test.
I am lucky to still have a current JAA IR/B737 type rating (UK) which are renewed every year in the sim.

Now do you guys know whether it would that be alright to carry out the MEIR (multi-crew) in an approved sim (possibly with AirNZ?) with a NZCAA examiner? I don't suppose a TRE could validate both the IR and the type rating in the case of an overseas conversion, or am I digressing?

I realize this is quite a specific inquiry but if any of you recent 'licence convertees' have any info about the above that would be much appreciated.

[DeltaT]

I think from memory NZCAA will put an overseas rating on your licence only if you have 500hrs+ on type. (apart from an Australian rating via TTMRA)

Sounds like you may have gone the long way by getting the NZ CPL directly, if you are still looking at IR theory exams? ...as per older posts above.

If you have the $$ and time is an issue, yes, can hire Air NZ sim with CAA examiner in the back and get IR test that way, quite possibley much less effort than doing it all on a piston!

However, do check with the company you have a job with here, some are fussy in that you have to have a Single Pilot Multi IR first, despite going onto a multi crew plane. With an initial IR test in the B737 sim you will get issued a 2 crew IR only.

[ZK-IWI]

Cheers DeltaT!

The long-way conversion process was necessary because I only have a JAA fATPL.
All in all, I reckon a checkride in the sim might end up cheaper than having to retrain on a MEP aeroplane...considering last Seneca flight was 6 years ago!

Would the examiner generally assess you from the LH seat, or do you need to find a sim buddy?

Thank you again for your constructive input.

[DeltaT]

When I investigated it he was going to be in the back, but you really need to call CAA and discuss, and yes would need a support person in the other front seat. The CAA guy will not come cheap so be prepared to be stung! -You might be up for travel and hotel costs, but thats probably cheaper than 1hr in a multi piston anyway. Re Air NZ 73sim its usually going spare late night, so see if you can get a good deal for when they really don't need it as opposed to peak time.
If you have less than 500hr on type, you might be able to get the type rating at the same time, not sure, they might want you to do the theory test also, best check.

[ZK-IWI]

Either way, it looks like I'm gonna have to cough up big dollars to get to the end.
What sort of credibility would you have (assuming you end up with a 'multi-crew' NZ MEIR) applying to some small companies operating single&multi engine aeroplanes (single pilot ops) in your opinion? I understand that 'kiwi experience' in the logbook is a definite bonus but surely they can't be too fussy about having gained airline experience somewhere else?
I couldn't find a specific distinction in the rules about 2-crew vs. single pilot IR. Can you actually fly single pilot ATOs (in a s/p aeroplane) with a multi-crew IR?

Cheers

[c100driver]

Hi ZK-IWI,

Air NZ can do IR recurrent checks and ATPL issue with in house TRE.

I can PM the Air NZ contact with whom to discuss if you need.

[ZK-IWI]

c100driver... that would be very much appreciated!

Many thanks.

[DeltaT]

I took from the way IWI is talking its initial issue for NZ which Air NZ in house cannot do, you will need a CAA guy in the back.
If its recurrency IR for NZ, Air NZ only operate multi crew aircraft/sims so you will only be making the multi crew IR current, NOT single pilot. Yes ok, the B1900 is certified single pilot, but there isn't a sim in NZ for it.
You could argue the point to fly the 73 sim single pilot which isn't that hard, but CAA are bound to stick to the fact its a multi crew plane. Best talk to the horses mouth!

[27/09]

I have just gone through the painful (and expensive!) NZCPL conversion process,

You should check out how expensive it is to go the other way, i.e. NZ CPL to UK CPL, you might learn what expensive really is


What sort of credibility would you have (assuming you end up with a 'multi-crew' NZ MEIR) applying to some small companies operating single&multi engine aeroplanes (single pilot ops) in your opinion?

Have a think about what you have written. How would you view an applicant that applied for a single pilot MEIR job but that applicant was only two pilot (multi crew) qualified? Would you give them the job? I suspect probably not.

Either way you'll also have to do a competency check under the Check and Training requirements for who ever you work for.

You often hear it quoted that in country experience is either required or beneficial, I've never heard of anyone actually being told this though no doubt it may have happened. In cases where it has happened one might suspect that it was another way of saying don't call us we'll call you. I don't think recent in country experience is all that important.

Also think about how it may look if you take a convoluted route to converting your qualifications. The question may be privately asked, why did he/she do this? Was it to cut corners? Does it give a hint that he/she may be prepared to cut corners in other areas too?

Also your fATPL is pretty well worthless the exams will count for nothing, but I guess you already know this.

On thing that's not clear from your posts is whether you have a job or just getting organised to go job hunting. I'm guessing from your posts that you're going to be job hunting so a single pilot IR is what you probably need, otherwise a two pilot one may be quite satisfactory.

[ZK-IWI]

Thanks guys, I can confirm that I will be looking at the initial NZ MEIR issue since it's done via a JAA MEIR conversion process. The ideal examiner would be both CAA and TRE qualified... :E !

27/09 you made a very valid point and with no job waiting for me at the end yet, it will be a tough call to decide which way is best (single or multicrew). Not too sure what you mean by 'cutting corners' though.
As naive as it may sound, I did not realize that holding an IR multi-crew would somehow disqualify you from applying for a single pilot job.

[27/09]

I'm not suggesting you were cutting corners, just that some prospective employers may wonder why you went about the conversion process the way you suggested you might, as it may be considered an unusual way to do it.

So far as the multi crew IR is concerned wrt to a single pilot job. A multi crew IR doesn't qualify you to fly single pilot IFR, not in NZ anyway. A prospective employer for a single pilot role would most probably want you to have the single pilot endorsement prior to considering you for the job, and almost definitely would make it a requirement that you obtain one prior to commencement of employment if the job was given to you.

[DeltaT]

@IWI, there isn't an actual 'conversion' from a EU licence to the NZ one because NZ does not recognise any other licence directly other than an Australian one, unless you have 1000hrs post issue etc as described earlier.
Its all about protecting the country's own qualification and making money out of you, just as it is for many other qualifications. Though $300 for a NZ medical admin fee is another story...:mad:
You are doing a MEIR initial because you do not have a NZ one (from what you say) or its been more than 5yrs from when you had one here? (not sure on that one)
Australia however does recognise the European licence directly so its easier to get like for like, though you still end up having to do a IR test anyway, unless you go the way as discussed at the start of the thread.
As for the IR's, view it this way, a Multi Crew IR is actually a step down from a Single Pilot IR and not the other way! All those pilots in Mutli Crew jobs, unless they have specifically done otherwise, all have lapsed Single Pilot IRs.

[ZK-IWI]

Good to know! I really do appreciate your opinions, in the end it may be wiser to select the single pilot route... will need to seriously weigh up pros and cons before starting the IR training.

DeltaT there is unfortunately no previously-acquired NZ licence I can use, the MEIR will be an initial issue (theory + flight test).

Something I still cannot quite process is the endorsement attached to the IR. Take the example of flying a King Air: please correct me if I'm wrong but this aircraft can be operated both single pilot and multicrew. Now assuming for a moment you've got a valid Type Rating and a fresh MEIR Single Pilot, can't you fly 'multicrew' with a rated co-pilot ? Workload aside, not much would change...right?

[27/09]

Something I still cannot quite process is the endorsement attached to the IR. Take the example of flying a King Air: please correct me if I'm wrong but this aircraft can be operated both single pilot and multicrew. Now assuming for a moment you've got a valid Type Rating and a fresh MEIR Single Pilot, can't you fly 'multicrew' with a rated co-pilot ? Workload aside, not much would change...right?

Re your question "Workload aside not much would change right?" Yes and No. I'm guessing you've not done any or much single pilot IFR, otherwise you'd know the cockpit dynamics are quite different between single pilot and two pilot IFR.

WRT to two pilot ops in a single pilot aircraft you are getting to into another can of worms. If the aircraft's flight manual doesn't require two pilot ops then it can be operated single pilot, however due to CAA rules for IFR ATO's it must have an operative autopilot for single pilot ops otherwise it must be a two pilot operation.

If the aircraft has an operative autopilot then there is no requirement for a two pilot operation and while it can be flown two pilot there has been debate as to whether or not the "second" pilot is allowed to log co-pilot time. However if the Captain was only two pilot rated then there would be a need for a co-pilot.

[ZK-IWI]

27/09 :ok:

Got it! It all makes more sense now.

[DeltaT]

Also, if said Single Pilot certified aircraft is set down in the Company Ops Manual to only be operated 2 crew, then that logged 'multi crew time' is acceptable. eg B200, B1900, and some PA31s I've heard of. And for your own ass saving, best to keep a photocopy of that page from the company manual.

[captbod]

Hi Folks
I've just been assessed by ASL for converting my UK JAA ATPL to a NZ ATPL and I am required to sit the Air Law exam and complete an LPC for licence issue. Could anyone offer advice regarding Air Law study material and where I could find a 757/767 sim and a willing NZ TRE. I'm currently working in Auckland on a temporary contract so it would make sense to get as much done whilst I'm down here.

Thanks in advance

Cb

[DeltaT]

Only full motion ZFT sims in NZ are owned by Air NZ in Auckland. (they do have a 767 sim). I don't think even the RNZAF have one for their 757s.
Make contact with Air NZ and I am sure they can supply an obliging TRE.

[captbod]

Thanks for the info DT, I've been in touch with Air New Zealand who are going to email me available dates and prices for the use of their 767 sim. Just need to know which study material to get in order to pass the NZ Air law exam.

[DeltaT]

Try ATTO, airline training and tourism or search around on pprune.
A lot do the Aussie exams and convert back because NZ doesn't have standalone course providers unless you are doing the flying also.

[27/09]

DeltaT Try ATTO, airline training and tourism or search around on pprune.


I don't think ATTTO will be of much use for ATPL law as they are or were the PPSC provider and PPSC don't do ATPL law.

Have a look at these they both provide ATPL law courses and or study material. Pete Sumner used to run courses to don't know if he still does or he may be part of one of the two outfits below.

ATPLOnline.co.nz (http://atplonline.co.nz/)

Pilot Books for PPL, CPL, IR, BTK & ATPL & ground courses - Waypoints Aviation (http://www.waypoints.co.nz/)

DeltaT A lot do the Aussie exams and convert back because NZ doesn't have standalone course providers unless you are doing the flying also.

Not quite correct, see above.

Most do the Aussie courses to get the Aussie ATPL on their licence so they can TTRMA a New Zealand ATPL without having to do a flight test. Also I've got the impression that some think the Aussie ATPL exams are easier, not sure they are though.

[DeltaT]

Yeah I am a bit out of touch with that stuff, such a long time ago I went through all that. No one else was supplying the poor chap with any info!

[redbull21]

Gentlemen,

I've read the above posts and have a slight twist to the conversion for my own circumstances.

I have a UK issues JAA CPL (fATPL), with current single pilot MEIR & instructor ratings with 4000+ TT.

I also have an FAA ATP (though no FAA instructor qualifications).

I am NZ bound soon and have a letter of assessment from ASL, although when I had my assessment they were not aware of my FAA ATP.

ASL have said the following:-

I need to sit the NZ CPL Air Law exam and then pass a CPL flight exam conducted by an ASL Flight examiner at which time they will then issue me a NZ CPL.

With that, I then need to sit the NZ Instrument rating law exam and then pass an IR flight exam and an instructor flight exam to then have those ratings added to my NZ CPL.

The question is this, Can I go for a NZ ATPL based on my FAA ATP? I cannot get a UK ATPL until I have 500 hrs Multi Crew but as I have a FAA ATP does that allow me to go for a NZ ATP?

I will contact ASL and ask that question too, however figured someone out there may have already gone through something similar.

Thanks

[27/09]

Redbull

Have you used your FAA ATP, how many hours on the FAA ATP? They probably won't convert a "green" or unused FAA ATP.

[redbull21]

Hi,

Yes I have passed the FAA ATP written exams & FAA ATP flight test with 4000+ TT, though that is mostly operating in the UK and flight examining under JAA in the USA.

I have not actually used the FAA ATP as I was working for a JAA FTO in the US.

[WhyByFlier]

For people that have done this did you need to send your log books or were copies of the last pages sufficient? Surely they can't expect a pilot in full time employment to send their logbooks, can they?

[Bornfreee]

I had to send my 3 logbooks to ASL (FeDex), they would not take copies!

Also in the letter of assessment is the requirement to have police criminal checks done for any countries you have lived in for more than 6 months over the last five years. Still waiting for my FBI checks to come through.

[DeltaT]

OK. If you go directly to the NZ licence, you need 1000hrs post ATPL issue flown in that country (EU/UK) before NZ will recognise it.

Remove EU/UK and insert the ICAO country as required.

Yes send the logbooks in and Insure the parcel to the hilt.

[27/09]

I have not actually used the FAA ATP as I was working for a JAA FTO in the US.

Then it's my guess they won't recognise your FAA ATP. No harm in trying though.

[DeltaT]

Check the wording in the regs, I am pretty sure it says something like the equivalent of 'post 1000hrs in the country of licence issue'.

So it will be the hours in the logbook against the USA reg aircraft they will look at? Even if you were really using the JAA licence for instructing, you were meeting the requirements of having the FAA licence for the USA reg plane.
If not I am sure a company letter from the employer can clarify.