unexpected turbulence

[londonclubguy]

Hi all,

Sorry to be a pain, but am new and nervous!! I am flying to LA in a week or so and have never been a bad flyer until i sat next to a pilot last time i flew!!
he told me that the plane can hit Clear Air Turbulence at any second whilst flying without any warning and just drop.

I am now a bit scared that the plane will drop, or whenever I get up/go to toilet/get something from overhead locker etc etc that it could drop right beneath me.

Any one have any thoughts/suggestion?

Thanks,

[Jarvy]

I have, never sit next to a pilot!!!
Servere CAT is very rare so don't worry too much. Normal CAT is a reason to keep your seat belt on when sat down thats why the pilot told you about CAT. I tell people why the wings move as well as other things to make them feel at ease;)

[Avman]

londonclubguy, it's a case of odds. You may never experience it in your entire life of flying as a passenger. Don't become paranoid about it. You probably have a better chance of winning the lottery before you experience a severe CAT event. Go to the loo (hey, even pilots have to) and take whatever you need from the overhead locker when you need to. However, it's safer to keep the odds down to a minimum (of you becoming an injury statistic), so just keep your seatbelt fastened at all other times.

[Leezyjet]

Also now that you are aware of it, you can be semi-prepared for it when you are moving around in the cabin, rather than just walking to and using the toilet on "autopilot" - (A bit like driving past a school, you know a child "could" run out, but most likely won't, but you have it in the back of your mind so you are prepared to deal with it if it does.) even though as Avman said, you will most probably never experience it.
:)

[MathFox]

I have been on sailing ships more than on planes and I know a few tricks to move around through moderate turbulence. (You are unlikely to need those as the captain and cabin crew will have you strapped in your chair by then.)
* Use your hands. Grab anything bolted to the plane to keep you stabilized.
* If you think you won't make it safely to your seat... bail out and strap in in the nearest one.
* turbulence is mostly uncomfortable... biggest danger is to get hit by a projectile; second biggest is being the projectile. Strap in and keep the overhead lockers closed. For your safety and the safety of the passengers around you.

Light turbulence is pretty common... Moderate is rare (1 in 10 flights and pilots will try to avoid it). Neither are dangerous, but they are uncomfortable. Dangerous turbulence is very rare, but having your seatbelt fastened when seated isn't that much of a burden.

[PAXboy]

londonclubguy, I'm sorry to read that a pilot could be so unthinking as to tell you thinks that are true - but without giving them a context and likelihood. You have read from others the probability, here is my experience from nearly 44 years of paxing. The worst was in 1970 and that was ONLY because it was a turbo-prop aircraft (Viscount) and we could not get above the thunderstorm, nor get around it.

Since then? Nothing more than being bumped around when skirting some big storms and I could see the storm off to the side and see that the crew were taking us nicely around them. I've been round the world in a variety of aircraft and I know that they are built to withstand these unexpected pressure changes and have always come through OK. The only time I have seen stuff falling from the overheads is when people open them without checking that something has moved - either in flight or on arrival.

[WHBM]

Londonclubguy, just to let you know any "sudden drop" is an interesting sensation rather than an actual fall, as those up front with the altimeter will confirm. Oh, and the aircraft just carries on regardless.

Look at the cabin crew around you, who spend all day, every day, walking up and down the aircraft.

[lowcostdolly]

Londonclubguy Thank you for starting this thread as I was considering starting one myself re pax perceptions of turbulence as I have some interesting takes on this onboard recently. For the record I work for a UK registered carrier and regs can differ worldwide.

Firstly to reassure you again severe CAT turbulence is rare and modern passenger aircraft are built to withstand this however it may feel at the time in the cabin. Yes you can at times get a sensation of "dropping" even in moderate turbulence and that can be disconcerting especially if it comes out of the blue.....rest assured the pilots will have control :ok:

I have been injured in moderate turbulence that came out of the blue. It was because I was unsecured and moving around the cabin trying to ensure the pax were strapped in......it has happened to quite a few CC and some airlines have now changed their procedures in recognition of this. If you ever hear the PA "cabin crew take your seats now" or simular from the flight deck during flight.....get in yours or the nearest one quickly!!

What amazes me sometimes is just how oblivious some pax can be to turbulence and it's possible impact on their safety in the cabin. Aircrafts are a lot more robust than humans and can withstand being chucked around.....humans can be hurt if they do not take a few simple precautions or heed the advice of crew.

The Capt switches on the seatbelt sign for either expected turbulence which at that point the pax may not feel or because we have hit CAT unexpectedly. That is a command instruction to ensure the pax safety....gone are the days when they will switch it on to accomodate the smooth running of the service!!

It never ceases to amaze me that I can then have pax standing in front of me holding onto seats whilst I'm making a PA to return to the seat and telling the lockers/toilets are out of use etc and then want to know why they cannot use the loo's...there are no seatbelts in the loo!!

I can then walk through the cabin and find parents securely strapped in with their sleeping baby with no belt......sorry but they must be strapped in parents even if they do get cranky on being disturbed.

The toilets/lockers are out of use means just that not only for your own but the safety of others sitting under your bags.....don't open them because you never know what might have moved and could fall out. When you are walking to the loo whilst being told not too and hit a bump you could fall on top of the nearest pax who has strapped in and injure them......

"Keep your seatbelts loosely fastened during flight" is advice given from the Pilots/CC. Do it because assuming you have listened to the safety brief you will know how to adjust it quickly in turbulence. It beats having to find the two ends under the seat when you are bobbing up and down and may have had a bevvy or two!!:)

Lastly yes the CC do at times walk up and down when the pax have been told to strap in......that is to ensure pax safety. Some may even continue the service because most airlines recognise pax expectations of this during flight and the Captain has given permission for a compromised service.....no hot drinks which could scald if spilt. If you ever fly on a plane where the CC are not bound by this policy then my advice would be don't again. Also you may not know but the CC can discontinue a service if they feel it is unsafe despite the F/D instructions......pilots do not always feel what is happening in the back/beyond the F/D door. We cannot however continue if they have told us not too.

LCG this reply was not aimed at you specifically but at all pax during turbulence......heed any instruction from the crew. We also give instructions as a precaution, it is your choice whether you follow them.

[MathFox]

Lowcostdolly, thanks for the post. :)

As I've said before, I've been sailing for several years and moved around ships in heavy seas. I know a few tricks to get myself to the place I want to be in pretty severe turbulence. (I guess CC will know the tricks too.)

However, most PAX don't have the experience and I am more than happy to remain seated, so that other passengers don't get the idea that it is easy to walk around... (It isn't; you'll receive at least bruises while practising!)

A tip for the male passengers: if you sit down while urinating you are far more likely to deposit all your waste water in the bowl. ;)

[Donalk]

What amazes me sometimes is just how oblivious some pax can be to turbulence and it's possible impact on their safety in the cabin.


Lowcostdolly -
What amazes me is how often cc post on the failure of pax to understand the dark arts of flight safety. If all pax had the depth and breadth of knowledge that you possess then I fear you would no longer have any useful function on board an aircraft.

It is precisely this knowledge coupled with the ability to impart it to a wider public which justifies your salary. The average pax takes a few flights per annum and neither understands atmospheric anomolies nor cares to. Do not expect them to devote their full attention either as there is a myriad of other items which, quite legitimately, can occupy their minds.

When people are removed from their normal operating environment it is then they require guidance and assistance in understanding the less familiar world they now find themselves in. Providing that assistance is your primary occupational function - irrespective of their level of intelligence - n'est pas?

[lowcostdolly]

It really isn't "dark arts" Donalk.....it's just common sense and the ability to either understand a simple pax announcement or ignore it and face the consequences of doing this.

BTW if you actively ignore it don't bother to sue the carrier for injuries you may sustain....:uhoh:

One day we may get to the point of no CC on a plane. You might be expected to purchase your safety card from a vending machine and then actually read it....who knows?? We may not even have Pilots.....we do have the autopilot already and apparently to the uninformed that can land a plane :hmm:.

I wonder how many SLF would dispense with the real McCoy given the choice. You know the professional training,expertise experience....

In the meantime I still have a job because a lot of people like to have us around.....just like the Pilots!!:ok:

[clareprop]

Oooh Goody! Another lecture from the Department of the Blindingly Obvious.

1.Turbulence is a flight condition.
2.Strap in when told.
3.Grit yer teeth 'till it's over.
4.Tell friends and family all about it when you get home.

[Gibon2]

One other piece of advice:

If you hear "Ride of the Valkyries" come over the PA, strap yourself in immediately. Rainboe is at the controls and is about to shake some sense into the nervous flyers.

[ArthurBorges]

I've been paxing on and off since age 12, which is 49 years ago.

When seated, I buckle up mostly because it's a carryover from driving.

Captain or F/O warned everyone of turbulence in good time in each case I experienced.

Altogether, like, the total is maybe half a dozen times.

[Donalk]

Lowcostdolly - You need to read my post again and refrain from the temptation to assume an attack on your profession. Any 'attack' was aimed at the number of times cc complain about the incompetence of pax and your assertion that they do not appreciate the inherent dangers of flying in turbelent conditions.

Well of course they do not appreciate the dangers, and of course they are incompetent when it comes to issues of flight safety. They have neither the training nor the comprehension of the specific atmospheric conditions which can produce hazardous flight conditions. Why should they be expected to know this after a safety brief lasting minutes.

Consequently it is your primary function to take responsibility for these people and ensure that they observe the regulations for both their security and that of their fellow pax.

I find it senseless therefore that some cc continue to bemoan this function in much the same way as it is equally so for pax to ignore a safety briefing. Pax have an excuse though - either stupidity, excitement, distraction in a strange environment etc etc, and it is for this reason that cc continue in existence.

[SNS3Guppy]

Londonclubguy,

You've got little to fear; this you should know before you strap in.

Clear air turbulence comes from several sources, but amounts to nothing more than ripples in a stream. Sometimes big ones,sometimes small, but turbulence is nothing more than air which isn't quite smooth. Think of it as a vehicle driving over a dirt road, or a boat on a river in which the current isn't glassy flat in appearance. The swirls and eddys and bumps you see are exactly what the atmosphere is doing when you experience clear air turbulence. The airplane won't simply "drop" or fall out from underneath you, and the wing is still producing the same lift it always did. It's merely going through a bumpy patch.

I've been flying professionally and privately for many years now, and have experienced all kinds of turbulence. Once in my entire career I've hit turbulence in which the bottom fell out, and it was a windshear in a thunderstorm...a place you won't go as a passenger on an airline flight. In my case, I was in a turbojet airplane penetrating thunderstorms as part of a weather research project, and we were in some very extreme weather conditions. You will never encounter such conditions as a passenger; during airline operations our primary job is to keep you a)safe, and b)comfortable and of course c)get you there on time. You'll arrive safely, and as comfortable as possible, and in as timely a manner as circumstance allows.

I've had a lot of nervous passengers over the years. Turbulence can be frightening if you don't understand it, or can't see or control it. As a passenger, you certainly can't see it (but you can feel it)...and obviously you can't control it, either. What you can do is understand it better, and that's simple.

The most common source of clear air turbulence is a wind shear which happens between the jet stream and the surrounding atmosphere. The jet stream is a river of air moving at a fast rate, high up in the atmosphere, It usually lays between layers of the atmosphere, in an area known as the tropopause. This is a place where the rate of air temperature change occurs. Simply put, you have air moving in two directions and two different speeds. Where they "rub" together, there's some turbulence, a little like water flowing over rocks in a stream. The amount of turbulence varies considerably, but most of the time it's little more than a shaking feeling, or sometimes a bouncing feeling. I find it hard to stay awake most of the time in chop and turbulence as a passenger, because it rocks me to sleep.

Sometimes the swirls and eddys of the atmosphere colliding can be a little stronger. In these cases air may be moving up or down, and may cause jolts or bumps for which you definitely want to be seat belted in. These are akin to perhaps white water rapids, by comparison. Still nothing to fear; the airplane may feel like it drops a little, but the sensation is misleading. The airplane is still held up by many tens of thousands of pounds of lift, still has good, solid airspeed, and will keep flying safely to the destination.

Airline aircraft are equipped with radar to see precipitation and moisture...which are often signposts of turbulence. Aircraft pass reports of turbulence to air traffic control, and to each other, and most of the time areas of turbulence are known and identified...and we slow down when passing through them, take different routes, or change altitudes.

Turbulence in an airliner is usually a non-event. I fly all over the world, and it's seldom I encounter turbulence in an airline environment. I've spent a lot of time in severe and extreme turbulence while working at very low altitudes in the mountains, and the chances of you experiencing anything remotely like that in an airline environment are almost nil. You should be able to approach your upcoming flight with confidence in both safety and comfort. Take your mind off your worries, and enjoy the flight.

[lilflyboy262]

Donalk, Im sorry.

But I totally agree with lowcost.
Im not CC, I've only paxed around, and you have to be retarded to not understand the basic's of inflight safety.
You know that something heavy falling on your head hurts. No matter what situation it is, home, campervan, boat or plane, its all the same.

You have put a 7kg (most of the time it is more) carry-on bag in a locker above your head. Chances are, it will move.
Watch out.

When you walk around a boat, or inside a campervan, you hold on should it move unexpectedly from a wave or a pothole.
Thats all turbulence is, a wave or a pothole in the sky. So hold on!

If a CC member tells you to sit due turbulence, chances are they know something you don't from the captain. So instead of tuning out of CC messages thinking you know better, or treating it as a annoying interuption to your inflight movie, listen to what they have to say.

If the safety belt comes on, clip up your safety belt till the sign goes out again. Nuff said?

And you know those safety cards that they put in the front of the seats? You are meant to read them. They tell you all the "dark arts" so in the event of a emergency, you know what to do, and where to go. So then the CC can assist those people that truely need help, not someone who cant be bothered reading a safety card.

Its typical of the human race in todays world, we are getting more and more ignorant to things if they do not affect us directly, and then bitch and moan when it does, and the lack of common sense and forethought is appaling.


P.S. Lowcost, we do actually have autoland now. Just I dont think it is used commercially yet?

[bealine]

You have put a 7kg (most of the time it is more) carry-on bag in a locker above your head. Chances are, it will move.
Watch out.

Hah! Heathrow, T5 last week, a passenger was struggling to lift a bag up to get it in the overhead. We couldn't get it lifted either, and insisted we gate checked it into the hold! (I'm ground staff, I was just on board to check a seat!) We labelled his bag and got the loader to load it for us! There was a yelp from the bottom of the stairs when the loader put the bag on the scales - 37kg! Is that a world record for an attempt to take an unsuitable cabin bag?

[Donalk]

Have I failed to elucidate my point yet again or perhaps the skim readers are at work. Never have I condoned the idiotic behaviour of pax who refuse to heed the legitimate warnings and advice given out by cabin crew.

For reference here is my orignal opening line:


What amazes me is how often cc post on the failure of pax to understand the dark arts of flight safety. If all pax had the depth and breadth of knowledge that you possess then I fear you would no longer have any useful function on board an aircraft.



Thus I am raising a critique of those cc who continue to bemoan the fact that they must constantly explain to pax that the seat belt sign means 'return to seat and buckle up'. If pax followed every visual cue in a smart fashion, like performing seals, then there would be no need for anyone to ensure and enforce conformity with the regulations. However, some pax do not follow the rules and I fear there wil be some who never will.

Similarily if every driver were to rigidly monitor their speed and behaviour in accordance with road signs then we would no longer require traffic police.

The sad fact is that compliance with safety regulation is low amongst the travelling public - C'est la vie - get used to it. However another lecture on the intellectual capacity of the great unwashed fom someone whose job it is to ensure their safety and comfort - I can do without.

PS. Autoland is in widespread use.

[lilflyboy262]

Maybe Im misreading what your saying, or just totally missing your point with it. But with your original post, it doesnt come across as how you portray it in your 2nd post.
To me, your saying that the inflight safety is only basic to those in the industry.

And to be honest, To ensure our safety? Come on... I gave up on relying on someone to ensure my safety a long time ago. Are we losing the ability to look after ourselves?

And autoland isnt in widespread use at our end of the world.
Perhaps Europe and USA. But not here.

[SNS3Guppy]

This thread was started by an individual who looked for reassurance on an upcoming flight. Arguing over idiotic passengers, cabin announcements, and autoland is really quite irrelevant, don't you think?

[Donalk]

Lilflyboy - It would appear you have misunderstood my original point which in a nutshell is the following:

I despair of CC who constantly post about the ignorance of pax who either ignore or fail to understand safety briefings and visual cues. There will always be those amongst the travelling public who for one reason or another will, to put it kindly, be a bit slow on the uptake. This is normal.

The function of CC is to remind these individuals to comply, repeatedly in some instances, in the interests of their own safety and that of everyone else.

So why do CC moan about people who keep them gainfully employed? I find it disingenuous and consider it speaks more to the intellect of the CC as opposed to the pax.

I hope this is clearer but if not then we will both remain confused.

[thebassplayer]

One thing I used to do about Turbulence on flights is lift my feet off of the floor: you feel less vibes that way and it's just easier to relax. (All though best not to do this if you're the pilot:})

:ok:

TBP

[Eboy]

Use your hands. Grab anything bolted to the plane to keep you stabilized.

If turbulence is severe, you may lose your grip. Once on a United flight I was walking down the aisle when we were hit with pretty rough turbulence. All nearby seats were filled and it was too rough to walk to my seat. A flight attendant told me to lay in the aisle and loop my arm through the lowest part of the nearest seat frame (you know, that metal bar that keeps your personal items from sliding forward) and hold my forearms with my hands. Thus, I was hooked in. I was bounced around a bit, a little bruising on the inside of my elbow where it went through the frame, but at least I didn't hit my head on anything or hit anyone else.

So, if you are out of your seat and surprised by severe turbulence, drop down and hook in.

That only happened once in a few decades of flying. As others say, it is rare.

[londonclubguy]

thanks to all those who tried to answer the original post in a positive/helpful manner.

to all those who didn't or simply wanted to share their horror storied - wow what a spectacular effort on your part to help someone out! the first thing I remember being taught as a child:
if you don't have anything useful to say, don't say anything at all.

LCG

[WHBM]

Hah! Heathrow, T5 last week, a passenger was struggling to lift a bag up to get it in the overhead. We couldn't get it lifted either, and insisted we gate checked it into the hold! (I'm ground staff, I was just on board to check a seat!) We labelled his bag and got the loader to load it for us! There was a yelp from the bottom of the stairs when the loader put the bag on the scales - 37kg! Is that a world record for an attempt to take an unsuitable cabin bag?
Would be par for the course on a US domestic flight !

[vonmises]

If cc's cannot gripe about moronic and inconsiderate passengers on this forum, where can they gripe??

I thought the cc's are there to ensure comfort (i.e. serving drinks, getting pillows, etc) and safety (giving instructions during an emergency) of the passengers. That is the reason they have always been employed, even before passengers became the mostly selfish pigs they are now.

Even if passengers followed all the rules (which would be awesome, then they'd all be like me!) we'd still need cc's on the flight, so they'd still be employed. So, I disagree with the point that jerky passengers are required for gainful employment of cc's.

That being said, there IS indeed a line that is often crossed...one thing I don't like is when the cc's on american flights across the Pacific get grumpy right from the get-go. It happens far too often.

[Juud]

londonclubguy, how you were told to behave as a child does not necessarily apply to adults communicating on an internet bulletin board, does it? ;)

Donalk, there is a fine line between pax ´understandably not understanding´ and pax willfully ignoring repeated, clearly and simply phrased announcements in their own language.

The first is part of the job and not something CC moan about.
The second is a conscious behavioural choice made mainly by pax of specific nationalities and/or specific social strata.
Along the lines of "Whatever these busdrivers/waitresses are yacking on about through the PA system does not appy to me.". For whatever reason valid in their own minds only.
The people in this category are a huge irritant. They pose a possible danger to their fellow pax, they create a lot of extra work for the FAs and in the spirit of ´once one sheep crosses the bridge´, they entice others to do the same unless the CC act like dictatorial traffic police.

The majority of CC take their safety role seriously, as they should.
When the FSB sign comes on, the FAs will check the cabin to make sure everybody is strapped in. This simple job in itself irritates a number of pax. They have snipey comments, they refuse to fasten the seat belt unless spoken to forcefully, they unfasten the seat belt as soon as the FA has walked past them.
I know this because after the FAs have done their check, it is my job to check that they have done a proper job.
All that is normal and understood by FAs. Pax don´t know any better, and explaining/enforcing is indeed a normal part of our job.
Nothing to complain about.

What I do complain about, maybe not here but certainly in the galley, is when, after the pilot´s initial announcement, I have made 3 or 4 additional announcements, in different languages and in simple and increasingly forceful terms, there are STILL pax who decide they are exempt.

Behaviour like that has nothing to do with people not understanding flight safety, and everything to do with some people being supremely egoistic and rude.
While rude bøggers are a regrettable part of life, everybody including CC has the ´right´ to complain about folks like that. :)

[onboard]

PS. Autoland is in widespread use.

True. And for those that didn't know, it's initiated and monitored by the flight crew. It doesn't just "come on".

[Avman]

True. And for those that didn't know, it's initiated and monitored by the flight crew. It doesn't just "come on".

Northwest/Delta Airlines may change that! :E

[onboard]

well, can't say I didn't see that coming. :)