International and or Air Force Crew Rest / Crew Duty Day

[McLuvin]

What is the standard crew duty day/crew duty rest for international flights out there? I'm a Navy C-40 guy and I'm just curious what other folks typically see. How many hours off, how many pilots, does it change based on how many time zones, if a reservist do you fly international day job, etc?

I know most have a 16 Hr duty day and some variant of 8 hours uninterrupted rest or minimum 12-15 hours on the ground. That's pretty much the Navy logistics standard, and we typically are scheduled for exactly the minimum on deck time. Trying to gather some data for a report. Thanks.

[Manuel de Vol]

'Crew duty days'- IMO - are a joke.

I was on alert. I received a phone call (from a flight commander) at 7am telling me: "The Boss wants your arse in here and he wants it now! - The monthly 'Bluespear' story is due tomorrow and he wants to see it and he wants to discuss it with you. - Right now!"

I'd already written it, but I didn't feel particularly inclined to get out of bed (I was on Alert) and I didn't want to go there.

An order is an order, so I went. We discussed the article 4 hours later - when the boss had time to see me - but before I could go home, I was called to fly. I flew twice. 23 hours after I was first called (to go and talk to the boss) I was asked to fly for a third time.

The senior officer on my crew was a Sqn Ldr (subsequently a Wg Cdr) AEO. He'd been on duty for 12 hours and he made it quite clear that he thought I was a 'Wuss'.

I refused to fly. - and went home.

The following day I was 'interviewed' by a flight commander. - The very same gentleman who had called me the day before and required me to report to the boss.

He told me: "Well, you knew you were on Tansor, you didn't have to come in, did you?"

Yeah, right Gav! - You call me and tell me the boss wants me 'right now' but I can blow you off? - What sort of flight commander are you?

Had I flown and had I snapped the probe off a receiver (a Frightening, for example) because I was too tired, and had the pilot of that aircraft had to ditch and had he died, who would've been responsible?

I refused to fly because I was too tired to do my job. - I was well outside any sort of crew duty time limitations (including 'operational' crew duty times) and I realised that had I flown, I might have endangered (or possibly killed) somebody.

At the end of the day, you make the decision. If you are still 'fit ti fly', then fly. (Irrespective of 'crew duty days'.

If you're not 'fit to fly' ground yourself until you are.

None of the execs on my squadron seemed to realise (or be concerned about) that.

You are a flight crew member. If you know you are 'fit to fly' then fly. If you are too tired or otherwise 'unfit to fly' ground yourself. Crew duty days are a guideline, but flight safety is paramount.

[Wiley]

Manuel, I had a similar experience a long time ago now (but I'll bet nothing's changed). Two aircraft detachment (Hueys) doing flood relief. Very long days - up before dawn to be airborne at crack of day, and usually, not back to base until after last light. No extra pilots, so no rotation/rest days possible, as every day usually involved at least one more emergency recovery, some of which involved some very demanding flying. (We were lucky - some close calls, but no accidents. However, the other squadron involved lost an aircraft and most of its crew.)

After two weeks, all pilots on the detachment were approaching their ASI max flight hours for a 30 day period. We were all knackered, falling straight into bed after a hurried evening meal, and physically unable to take up the many offers of a beer from the many people we'd literally pulled from the rooftops .

A quick call to HQ Op Com to explain the situation. Reply: "Forget the max hours limits. Continue flying."

[Manuel de Vol]

Wiley,

I am (or was) a big boy. - Quite capable of making my own decisions.

As I saw it, 'Crew Duty hours' were a guideline. On Operation Tansor (which I quoted) we weren't guided [I hesitate to use the word 'bound'] by 'peacetime 'guidelines, but were guided by operational rules.

I was dismayed - nay, mightily pissed off - by the attitude of the AEO leader and the Flight Commander. IMO, neither was worth a bucket of warm spit (though both were subsequently promoted.)

When it went to the wall - and after 23 hours continuous duty and my refusal to fly another sortie that, IMO, gets pretty near the wall - I was 'dismayed' by the reaction of the execs.

Some people are born to lead, some have leadership thrust upon them and some people are promoted because they look good.

Just my luck that on that particular day I was dealing with a bunch of film stars.

The point I was trying to make (and perhaps failed to elucidate as clearly as I might have done) is that the concept of 'Crew Duty Day' is a crock of sh*t.

If you are fit to fly - Fly.

If you are not fit to fly: - Don't fly.

When I was aircrew, I flew because that was what I wanted to do for a job.

When I retired, I did other jobs.

As a lawyer, I learned to interpret rules ... I wasn't a lawyer when I was in the Air force (thank God, I would've had nowhere near as much fun)

Getting back to the question posed by the original poster:

Forget 'Crew Duty Days".

If you are fit to fly, then fly.

If you are not fit to fly, don't fly.

It's a subjective assessment - ALWAYS!

If your employer decides to sue you, contact me and I will advise you on the appropriate council (and take a cut ;) )

[Wader2]

MdeVol, well said.

I remember one time when T&S was, as usual, top of the heap for economies. The Nimrod was in Andoya. The Sortie was Andoya, area, Kinloss. Kinloss was out with cross-winds.

Option 1, was don't fly, spend an extra day T&S on Norwegian rates.

Option 2, fly sortie, land at Prestwick.

Whiz wheel calculations showed that Prestwick T&S plus transit fuel to ISK was cheaper than Option 1.

Problem, whizz wheel calculations ate in to crew duty time so the time available for sortie and recovery to PWK had run out.

Option 3, defuel aircraft for direct transit and possible slip in to ISK if the wind dropped.

The Brains Trust then went nap on Option 3 as BEST money saving option. They instructed Captain, M***** C***** ( not to be confused with M***** C******), to defuel, take-off asap etc etc.

MC then inormed the brains trust that they were out of crew dutiy for options 2 and 3 and he was going to execute option 1. :}

[minigundiplomat]

I could have been awake for a year, but I'd still press if it involved leaving Andoya.