Anemometer masts ...

[PH-UKU]

Just wondering if the mil system marks up where windfarm anemometer masts are located on your low-flying charts or notam boards.

I increasingly see these very difficult to see skinny grey 299ft high masts (with guy wires) up and down the west coast of Scotland. Not on notams, not on charts and not lit.

Whenever I see one I pop it into the GPS, but they can disappear as quickly as they appear ... which focuses the mind the next time you fly over ... and can't see it.

They tend to be on ridge sites that are being investigated as future windfarm sites (although once the windfarm is up, they do tend to stay - probably to measure actual winds).

So, do you get notice of them or just keep an even warier lookout ?

[hval]

Whoops! Not a good idea.

Suggest you do a websearch. Look at Whitelea for instance. Having said that web shows it being near Edinboro!!!

Hate to say this. phase two was built and phase three and four are probably going to be built.

Oh yes, A wind farm just across the road on glenouther moor will probably get built as well. Different company, but no windvane. They still have a forest to remove.

Do not look our for the masts alone.

Hval

[Easy Street]

Yes, we do spot a lot of the dratted things. Usually just in time for a sharp jink to the side, or if really late, a pull up! Crews refer to them as "whip aerials" because the average tall, thin uncharted obstacle in days gone by was something erected by the local CB nutter; the term has stuck now that masts are going up all over the place.

If crews have the presence of mind they can store the coordinates of the "surprise" mast in the aircraft nav kit with a simple button press, and pass those coordinates onto 1 AIDU to prod them to update the obstruction data. Aircraft DVOF data (like GPWS but for obstructions) gets updated with the positions, but there is often a couple of months delay between a mast's construction and its appearance in the DVOF. Similar for the maps.

At various times I have seen flying units run a system of "local warnings", which effectively generates NOTAMs for distribution on-base only. This might cover local bird roosting sites, but also used to include new obstructions out-and-about in the low flying areas. Not sure if any units still do this.

An anemometer mast erected to survey wind at a potential wind-farm site near Marham led to the farmer whose land it stood on getting ostracised from his local community, and eventually comitting suicide (although there was a lot of speculation about foul play) so these things are obviously emotive!

[Manuel de Vol]

How high are these masts?

We don't have any Buccaneers any more (35ft agl) nor do we have Vulcans (80ft agl) (well, let's forget about the 'rules' and be pragmatic)

So who is flying low-level, at what height and how high are the anemometer masts?

[Wholigan]

I increasingly see these very difficult to see skinny grey 299ft high masts (with guy wires)

. .

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Unless you're in a Grob, you're low enough to hit one!

[danieloakworth]

The standard wind farm met mast is 70m (229 feet high). Before a developer can apply for a wind farm it is required that he sites a met mast for up to 6 months to prove the wind speeds are sufficient to justify it. Installation is approved through the planning process and MOD are consulted (depsite not being a statutory consultee). Coords are passed to AIDU and they are marked.

[Shackman]

More and more of these chopper stoppers are appearing all over the UK - and not necessarily where you might expect, ie on hill tops/high ground. There is even one on low ground on the outskirts of Telford! Within LFA 9 and its immediate area we have local warnings, but further afield the AIDU warnings tend to be almost after the event. It would help if these masts could have some form of visual marker, but lighting is probably out of the question and anything else, such as a streamer, would probably affect the very purpose they are there for. Even different colouring is unlikely to help as they are so thin.

One day soon someone, most probably rotary at 100ft, is going to hit one; I just hope it's not me, although I've already had a couple of close calls.

[Spanish Waltzer]

I would guess this is extremely significant for the offshore mil & SAR rotary guys too. ISTR they stooge around IMC at 200' and unless these masts have radar reflectors they could seriously spoil your day?

[T-21]

Nice to see some positive comment's . I put an earlier post on here about the proposed wind farm near Olney and just got slagged off . So much for reporting flight safety issues to aviators. :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Even something as simple as dayglo marker balls all the way up them (like the big ones you see on powerlines on the continent) would go some way to easing the pain!

[hval]

Often the turbines are built on peat, This requires a concrete base to be built that normally is above ground level. The turbines may 110M high - but that doesn't necessarily take into account blade sweep height. You need to allow maybe 150 to 180M agl.

Of course, turbines can be many heights. Currently heights do seem to be in the 80M to 110M heights (excepting blade sweep).

One thing that can be noticed with windfarms is the decimation in raptors (birds of pray) in areas a number of kilometres away. Decimation is not too strong a word either.

[Phill]

"Even something as simple as dayglo marker balls all the way up them"

I doubt the developers want to draw attention to their plans too soon.
A very emotive issue and for most punters they'd never notice an anemometer (or realise what it is) nor any planning request for it. But, put bells and lights on it and they pretty quickly gives the objectors a heads up.

[Double Zero]

This sounds horrifying !

Even large yachts ( I'm thinking of 160' masts & a bit less) have a flashing red light on top - even if regulations don't force one to, anyone with a brain or conscience would make it bloody obvious, day or night, and ensure that such things are known to NOTAMS or similar as they plan it.

The point about telephone masts trying to be clandestine is a good one - recently in Horsham West Sussex ( not a low flying area except for the odd police helo ) a lot of people wondered why their car immobilisers wouldn't let them get going; turns out a 'phone mast had been secretly erected nearby, obviously trying to avoid protestors - it's well camouflaged for a change, but obviously a problem from various viewponts.

Are these bastards allowed to just chuck up these things without notifying aircraft / planning permission ?!

[hval]

Planning applications are made, as are environmental impact assessments. Any objections generally get overturned by the government.

Did you know that the only reasons wind farms pay for themselves is through tax benefits? They are highly non cost effective in real monetary and polluting terms. Not a single wind farm has ever made a profit (once you remove tax benefits). They are short life spanned; maintenance costs are horrendous, removal costs at their end of life are dreadful, and the destruction of carbon sequestration deposits cancels out any benefits what so ever.


Hval.

[vecvechookattack]

At least you know where the masts are......

If you are ever tasked to investigate a surface contact at night then keep a good lookout for these bad boys..... No lights...No Transponders and they don't show up on Goggles until you get to the "What the £cuk is that ?" stage.



SkySails-Home en (http://www.skysails.info/english/)

[Tankertrashnav]

Did you know that the only reasons wind farms pay for themselves is through tax benefits? They are highly non cost effective in real monetary and polluting terms. Not a single wind farm has ever made a profit (once you remove tax benefits).


You ain't kidding. I live in an ideal location for a wind turbine: 450' asl on a SW facing slope near the sea in Cornwall, no adjacent trees or buildings, but with connections to the grid. I costed the provision of a single turbine of the type you see popping up all over the place. Without any grants (not by any means definitely available) the cost, including an exorbitant charge for connection to the grid would be approaching £20,000. Annual electrical provision, given average wind speeds for this area would be around 10,000 kw, which can be purchased from electricity companies for around £1,000 on various tariffs. Result - a 5% return on capital, with no allowance for repairs - these things typically offer a 1-5 year guarantee and have a 20 year projected working life.

Unless you are altruistic, or can be assured of grants (much reduced now from when they first started) these things make no sense, and I am quite sure the same applies to larger wind farms.

Now if someone wants to build a small nuclear power station on my land I'd be quite happy to accommodate them. With the levels of radon round here I'd never notice the difference!

[kenparry]

Even large yachts ( I'm thinking of 160' masts & a bit less) have a flashing red light on top -

I think not. A flashing red is not part of the marine nav light regime. There is no requirement for a masthead as such to be illuminated, though yachts under 20 metres length may carry a tricolour light there. Off topic, yes - just clarifying.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Surely the ANO 2005, Part 13, Articles 133 (Lighting of en-route obstacles) and134 (Lighting of wind turbine generators in United Kingdom territorial waters) apply?

The Air Navigation Order 2005 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm#134)

[vecvechookattack]

That is perfectly true but only applies insied the UK TTW. Outside of that (12nms) then the rules don't apply.

[danieloakworth]

Decimation is not too strong a word either.

If true why have the RSPB withdrawn from objecting to wind farms. The raptor argument makes me laugh. In Yorkshire all the anti wind nimby's are moaning about the impact of wind farms on their precious birds of prey yet last week the RSPB reported that this year has been one of the worst on record for crimes against these birds and there has not been a succesful breeding attempt of Peregrines in Yorkshire since the 1990's. This is not through wind farms but because farmers, pigeon racers etc are shooting, trapping and poisoning them.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

If crews have the presence of mind they can store the coordinates of the "surprise" mast in the aircraft nav kit with a simple button press, and pass those coordinates onto 1 AIDU


No 1 AIDU, in my experience, aren't very interested - having sought advice from them on how to publicize new threats such as these masts, none of the information we provided ever made it onto one of their maps (partly, perhaps, because some of the masts may be below the OPV for the maps). Instead, we resorted to making a map of our local area with unplotted hazards on it and sticking it up in the bogs etc, and every time a visiting aircraft booked in, we'd send them a copy of our map so they got at least some of the extra local information which we happened to know.

[hval]

Danieloakworth,

If true why have the RSPB withdrawn from objecting to wind farms. The raptor argument makes me laugh.

Uhmm! Quite simply for political reasons. With reference to all the wind farms I deal with, and Mrs hval deals with (she who does environmental stuff for wind farms) I can state with full knowledge as to what happens to the wildlife (in particular raptors and bats).

As I have written previously not a single wind farm would make money if it were not for the fact that yours and my tax subsidises them. I speak with some considerable expertise and knowledge about them, and in particular the wind farms I write about.

Might I suggest a little less rudeness and a little more research on your behalf might make you open your eyes. One big negative is the amount of carbon created & carbon sequestration regions destroyed in the creation, maintenance and demolition of wind farms.

You are correct, to an extent, about farmers etc. killing wildlife, but not totally correct.

Edited for clarification, repetition and for the shear hell of it.

Hval

[Merged]

I think these anemometer masts are a big issue. My wingman and I had 2 very close calls today at OLF heights with separate masts which were not on the half-mil chart in LFA 20T. Way too close for comfort.

[danieloakworth]

[QUOTE][Might I suggest a little less rudeness/QUOTE]

Not sure which bit would be considered rude, you seem a sensitive soul.

Low level obstacle issues are dealt with by a SO2 at Wittering, can't recall the exact job title (Low level training?). Anemometers and wind farms have to go through an extremely rigorous planning process. However, if there are genuine issues with collision avoidance then it should be reported to him, as at present he is doing his very best to deal with the increasing number of applications. Incidentally, MOD request lighting on all wind farms in the LFS (not allowed to demand as their height does not meet the provsions of the ANO), Local Planning Authorities tend not to disagree with MOD so expect all wind farms to be lit and marked in future.

[Double Zero]

Ken Parry,

I'm afraid you've jumped on the wrong one this time!

Does the name ' Velsheda ' ring any bells ?

Though I've sailed most things inc' square riggers since 1974, yachtmaster offshore so theoretically can command up to 200 tons worldwide ( did 280 tons on French canals ) my own boat now at 6.7m does not officially require ANY decent nav' lights, but I and my chums fit them as a matter of common sense; likewise radar reflectors / sensors.

I have a 30W solar panel - itself not actually paying for itself re. manufacturing compared to output - and backup dynamo on the auxillary engine.

As for wind generators, I would LOVE to see the maths proving that such things are any benefit at all - when one factors in the manufacture of the materials, factory building the thing, the workers driving to get there, blokes in a landrover / boat going out to service it, replacement bearings...

There was a time I never thought I'd say it, but until battery technology comes on in a big way, ' Nuke power stations are what we're stuck with.

Back to the original point, if I or my girlfriend ever was surprised enough to have an erection of over say 40' AGL, I'd feel duty bound to make it as visible as possible for any passing aircraft ( as I 'phoned the Guiness book of records ).

Seriously, most yachts have a mast at least that high, as a certain red Arrow found out.

Yachts at anchor will usually but not always show an all-round white light, often at the masthead or if following the rule book, slightly lower than and forward of the masthead.

This isn't so much to ward off aircraft, as other boats and to give a target to row back to.

As I say, REALLY large yachts usually carry aircraft warning red flashing lights, as a matter of common sense.

[petit plateau]

There is a technology fix for the mast hazard to low flying aircraft. It's called a LIDAR unit and the L stands for laser. It waves a laser beam upwards and uses the reflections to calculate wind at various heights. There are also SODAR units where the S stands for sound which do the same thing with ultrasonics. Both are about 2m in height and would eliminate the hazard to low flying aircraft as well as not upsetting the neigbouring NIMBYs by alerting them to the wind prospecting going on in their back yards. (We make power supplies for some of these things, and some met masts as well).

Many of the environmental impact assessments are being commissioned by people who are anti-wind so be careful as some have spin on them. There are a range of views on things.

The UK approach to putting up wind farms onshore is so $%^&& up by the planning system that we basically penalise them with high costs, which in turn means they need more subsidy to level the playing field (don't make the mistake of thinking that coal, gas, oil, nuclear, hydro are unsubsidised).

Payback time in energy and carbon terms on a well sited large wind turbine is of the order of 18 months. That's a wells-to-wheels costing for those of you into minutiae. Economic payback depends on a range of factors including which subsidy regime you happen to be in, but I wouldn't be rushing to invest in the UK ones as this country is about to be forced to dash for gas once again due to lack of strategic planning. In the USA prior to a recent price spike in turbines they were about to be installed on an unsubsidised basis as the cheapest form of generation, so the world is changing.

Payback time on a small turbine on a yacht tends to be quite good as the alternative is diesel. Flying planes into yachts leads to early acquantance with Bournemouth beach, irrespective of who is at fault.

We are not far from the day when the technology transfer may start being from turbine blade designers into wing designers rather than vice versa. They are becoming very interesting from both a structural and an aerodynamic perspective.

Offshore large turbines are required only because onshore planning is a nightmare. O&M on offshore turbines is going to be a bundle of fun. Watch out for sme humungous met masts going up offshore, hopefully on charts and with collision lights.

Fly safe please folks

[drustsonoferp]

hval As I have written previously not a single wind farm would make money if it were not for the fact that yours and my tax subsidises them. I speak with some considerable expertise and knowledge about them, and in particular the wind farms I write about.

Can you back up your statement with some back of fag packet numbers?

[SammySu]

In my experience the majority of wind farms are NOT lit. They are tall, expansive and very dangerous. Anemometer masts are worse as they spring up anywhere - at least the wind farms are normally on the DVOF. Sometime soon someones going to hit one, probably at night and it won't be pretty.

[[email protected]]

The highest demand for electricity in the UK is when there is a high pressure system over us during winter giving long clear nights, low temperatures and light to nil winds - just how much use will all the wind turbines be then??? They are a politically favourable option because it looks like the Govt is actually doing something.

Many windfarms only have one light for the whole installation and some use LED lights that are not visible on goggles! Fortunately the ones at sea are reasonably well marked and show up on our radar.

[danieloakworth]

MOD have evolved their policy such that all wind farms now require 25 candella NVG compatible lighting around the periphery as a minimum.

[Shackman]

Windfarms themselves are not the problem (except perhaps the positioning) - they are well promulgated once building starts and normally have some lighting whether on or off shore. It is the anemometer masts that precede them - not promulgated, not lit, not visible and not necessarily requiring any permission before erection as they are considered short term 'for investigative purposes' . And boy are they close to invisible!

[danieloakworth]

You need planning permission for a met mast. MOD are consulted as part of the process.

[Focks 2]

... if I or my girlfriend ever was surprised enough to have an erection of over say 40' AGL, I'd feel duty bound to make it as visible as possible for any passing aircraft ( as I 'phoned the Guiness book of records ).

If your girlfriend had an erection of any size, I'd keep it as well hidden as possible!

:p

Sorry, carry on.