226OCU/RAF Lossiemouth 1978 [Archive]

Old-Duffer

24th Oct 2009, 18:24

Fellow Prunners,

I am trying to find the name of the Ecuadorian pilot who was killed on 1 November 1978 when his Jaguar crashed near Selkirk. Plenty of records refer to his nationality - none to his name. The Forms 540/541 for both station and OCU are, apparently, not in the National Archives and are in 'limbo' with the 'reviewers' before being deposited.

Any long memoried prunner who can help gets a free copy of a book tracing RAF aircraft accidents since 1954 to date (2600 serious prangs) and including Roll of Honour (2000 names). {hope this isn't classed as an overt ad - but if so, mia culpa, and apologies all round}

It's the last name I need so please dig deep into the memory buds!!

Old Duffer

capewrath

25th Oct 2009, 15:42

You could try asking the Selkirk Advertiser or Southern Reporter (Selkirk) newspapers to check their records.

Vampiredave

25th Oct 2009, 17:32

Not really much help when it comes to the name of the pilot, but the IFS booklet covering the Jaguars' tenth anniversary states:

1 November 1978: Jaguar GR.1 XX759

An OCU student was flying on a low level navigation sortie, with an instructor acting as chase pilot in a second aircraft. Some 30 mins after take off, the pair encountered deteriorating weather conditions and the student called that he was pulling up. The chase pilot saw XX759 disappear into cloud in a gentle climb but with no sign of the reheat having being lit. The chase pilot remained at low level and told the student to call "VMC on top"; this instruction was acknowledged by the student. Approximately 20 secs later, the chase pilot saw in his left-hand mirror the plan view of XX759 in a near vertical dive before it crashed into the hillside some 300 metres from his position. The aircraft appeared intact prior to the impact and there was no signs of fire. The student did not eject and was killed when his aircraft hit the ground. The Board was unable to determine why the student had lost control of the aircraft, but speculated that he might have been subject to distraction or disorientation, or a combination of both.

gareth herts

25th Oct 2009, 19:44

I thought I'd be able to help as "The Cats Bow Out" has a Jaguar Force roll of honour with names and dates. Except..........there's no entry for that date and certainly no Ecuadorian's in the list.

Sorry!

Alber Ratman

25th Oct 2009, 20:25

And there never was going to be entries for the foriegn students in what was the roll of honour for RAF personnel. I compile the list for that publication, in haste and limited time. I used Target lock as a source document and verified names from PPruNe and other sources until I had a complete list of RAF personnel. I did confim these names with the AHB through a contact I had. Didn't have the time to check out that particular accident. AHB would have the details from 226 OCU's F540. Try them IMHO.

I do know that all the OCU course photos, with names were saved and were with No 6 Sqn when it was canned at Coningsby. I know they were put somewhere for safekeeping.. Will do some digging via contacts.

Gainesy

26th Oct 2009, 09:11

Tried the Ecuador Air or Military Attache?

27mm

26th Oct 2009, 12:01

Hi Old-Duffer,

I was a QFI on RFS (Refresher Flying Sqn) at Leeming from '77 to '79 and remember 2 Ecuadorian Officers who came through us prior to the Jag OCU at Lossie. The timeframe sounds about right. One (my stude) was named Lieutenant Aguirre and the other, IIRC, was named Captain Moscoso. They were both fine ambassadors for their country, as well as being good eggs. They surprised us by saying that their air force planned to operate their Jags from Guayaquil airfield, which is some 10000ft AMSL - would have been interesting, to say the least! Sad to hear of this accident, but hopefully my info will go a little way to clearing things up.

Old-Duffer

27th Oct 2009, 19:04

Many thanks 27mm. I put the names into a website called "Scotlandspeople" and got back Cesar Raul Aguirre age 27, whose death was registered in Elgan in November 1978, so it looks like it was your student.

The book offer is available should you want it (it's with the producer at present and won't be available until the year's end).

jp3492

28th Oct 2009, 00:42

Hi there, long time lurker here, I was 8 years old at the time and my dad was on 8 sqn at the time, (Sqn Ldr George Parker) They had the married quarter four or five doors up from us in North Covesea Terrace. If I recall correctly he had a young wife that was either pregnant or with a very young child at the time and she did not speak English. We actually had them around for supper as they attended the RC Church at Lossie at the time - chaplain was Fr Tony Harris. It was very sad and not a good time at Lossie for the Jaguar force. My brother may also recall (Poison - ex 111, 43 et al)

Dan Gerous

31st Oct 2009, 16:57

Living about 12 miles from Bowhill I decided to go and visit the memorial stone. It isn't easy to find, but with help from the Estate staff I located it. I had planned to go tommorow, but the weather isn't looking good, so went today. I think some of the estate staff are going up on Monday, and they offered to show me the way, but I couldn't make Monday. The memorial is a bit isolated, but I got the impression it isn't forgotten.

Danny

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Aguirre-02.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v382/toom317/Aguirre-01.jpg

Chris Kebab

31st Oct 2009, 20:42

Nice one Danny, well done.

jdespinosa

27th Oct 2010, 02:47

Hello I know the pilot becouse he is my family.
He was from Imbabura pimampiro Ecuador and was an pilot of the air force of Ecuador.
His Family knows a litle part of his death.
The goberment dont explain details of his death.
Iam sure that his family don't known of his memorial if you can sent a picture or photo of his memorial.
my mail is [email protected].

please write to my email for more details of the pilot he is my cousin.

tanks

Javier

jdespinosa

27th Oct 2010, 02:49

my e mail is j d e s p i n o s a @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Old-Duffer

27th Oct 2010, 05:38

Thank you for the two recent posts.

I was able to obtain the pilot's name from an RAF pilot who knew him and I have included it in a book I was compiling.

The photographs of the memorial have now been moved because of their age on the system. If you send a private message to Dan Gerous, he will be able to send these direct to your email address.

Old Duffer

jdespinosa

27th Oct 2010, 14:35

The complete name of the pilot is: Cesar Raul Aguirre Reyes, he born in Ecuador, Province of Imbabura a small city called Pimampiro. He was of the 25th promotion you see the list of members of this in the page:
Escuela Superior Militar de Aviación Cosme Rennella B. - Promociones ESMA (http://www.esmafae.mil.ec/nuestra-historia/prom-graduadas-esma.html)

jdespinosa

28th Oct 2010, 02:00

SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH, I need is posible you send me the photo of the memorial of the Ecuadorian Pilot of the name is Cesar Raul Aguirre Reyes.
He is my father's cousin and the family have poor information of his death occured in november 1th of 1978.
please sent me the photo if you have in your files.

my e mail is j d e s p i n o s a @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Other notice Ecuador retire the jaguar from his air force.

Dan Gerous

28th Oct 2010, 21:08

I've got your email, and will sort out the pics for you. They are on an external hard drive in amongst all my other pics, so it may take a couple of days for me to find them and post them on to you.

Danny

El Grifo

28th Oct 2010, 21:16

Danny,
I was in Melrose at the time of the crash and headed straight up to Bowhill.
Usual scene, but reports later proved unfounded, talked of a 'chute on the other side of the hill. Vis not great but ok.

Was not aware of the memorial but must check next visit.

Pailmerk overseas !

Lo siento por su perdido Sr. Espinosa

jdespinosa

29th Oct 2010, 01:40

Thanks for all everybody really thanks to you.

Shaws

28th Jul 2012, 19:42

Hi everyone.

I lived on Bowhill Estate from 1972 until very recently. I still recall this terrible accident. I was 11 yrs old. The location of the accident was just over 1 mile from our house. Not long after the accident, i visited the site a handful of times, last being approx 1986 when i personally went to the locus. I have passed the site many, many times over the years but not went up into the woods off the dirt track which is approx 150 yrs below the crash site. I have recently took a deeper interest into this accident and have carried out some research, although all details i have found are readily available on the internet.

Today, 28/7/12 i took a walk back up. Memories came flooding back of 1978.

My thoughts are with Cesar's family.

http://i49.tinypic.com/wl3o14.jpghttp://www.pprune.org/%3Ca%20href=%22http://tinypic.com?ref=wl3o14%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20s rc=%22http://i49.tinypic.com/wl3o14.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22Image%20and%20video% 20hosting%20by%20TinyPic%22%3E%3C/a%3E

El Grifo

29th Jul 2012, 10:26

Nice one Shaws !

Must visit the spot on my next trip back to the Borders.

I am sure if Cesar is still an active member he will be grateful for your efforts.

Shaws

29th Jul 2012, 15:17

Thanks ! :)

If you require me to show you where the site is, feel free to message me, and indeed any reader who would like to go. The site is near impossible to find unless you're a local.

The memorial stone is not the original. The original was a stone cross with the name plate of the pilot etc, i believe the same name plate is used today. The original memorial deteriorated over the years. I'm not 100% sure when the stone was replaced with the one which is in my photo, i'd hazard a guess somewhere very late 80's to very early 90's ( 1989 - 1991)

Both memorial stone's (initial one and present one) is situated exactly where the plane impacted the ground.

I'm still trying to reseach anything i can find out about the pilot, Cesar. This is purely for personal interest only. If anyone is reading this and knew Cesar, please feel free to get in touch.

Thanks.

El Grifo

29th Jul 2012, 18:28

Will do Shaws. Born Gala, had business in Selkirk, worked in Melrose Hydro at time of accident. Interested in visiting site.

Cheers
El G.

Union Jack

31st Jul 2012, 18:28

Will do Shaws. Born Gala, had business in Selkirk, worked in Melrose Hydro at time of accident. Interested in visiting site.

El Grifo - Whilst appreciating that, as a professional photographer, you may have been distracted by the "Bad Man" thread on JB:), I wondered whether my last PM had borne any fruit regarding another "accident" in the Selkirk area.

Jack

Shaws

1st Aug 2012, 14:47

El G

Was your business operated from a shop at the corner of Tower St, oppostite the chippy ?

El Grifo

5th Aug 2012, 14:05

Union Jack, I sent you a pm a while ago. Did you not receive it ?

Yep Shaws. I had a shop/office there but my actual Studio was in Gala.

Shaws

18th Apr 2016, 20:47

https://youtu.be/2-dKRdGifZc

A small amateur video.....

El Grifo

19th Apr 2016, 08:50

Nice one mate. Your video sparked of a bit of emotion here, a few thousand miles from Selkirk. We hijacked the Hotel Minibus and roared up to Bowhill as soon as the report came through. Nothing we could do of course !
Saludos. Ronn

https://youtu.be/2-dKRdGifZc

A small amateur video.....

Shaws

19th Apr 2016, 15:21

Thanks.....

I was chasing daylight on Saturday night as action camera sd memory card decided to pack in, so had to nip back to Selkirk for another, then back up to the Estate, by that time it was 1900 hrs. Then a quick stride up the hill, was out of puff. As soon as i put the camera on, my memory went blank. ha. Sods law.

But i got there in the end, dodgy commentary but the main points were covered.

There were other things I left out, such as the line out was infact to find human remains, the sight of burnt trees, smell of aviation fuel, etc

I'm hoping one day the video will find it's way to Pimampiro Ecuador, so the Lieutenants family and friends know he is still in our hearts and minds.

Cloggy2

20th Apr 2016, 20:52

Shaws

21st Apr 2016, 20:50

Cheers Cloggy2

It's odd how this accident has embedded on folks minds and remained all this time.....I don't know why, just cannot explain it.

Perhaps because it's not a normal occurrence for a military jet to crash into a forest, more so nearly taking out a large stately home.... i don't know, but it has etched on many peoples minds here on the Estate.

For me personally, being of young age at that time, it's something that has never left me. The older I get the more I want to find out.......again I can't really explain why my interest has grown over the years, could be the power of the internet by having the ability to search with more details becoming available , whereas a few years back, there was nothing to search.

Over the last handful of years i've learnt more about this sad event. One of my main questions I hope will one day be answered is what distracted the pilot......there was a suggestion of distraction and / or disorientation......I wonder if the RAF actually know more now than they did back then.

I still feel saddened about Cesar, I never met him, I don't know his family or friends, yet I feel i do know him slightly.....unexplainable, but it's all psychology I suppose.

I'll continue to search and maybe one day someone reading the internet will know the answers and email me..... fingers X'd.

Shaws

29th Apr 2016, 20:21

Just a small update....

Managed to get the video seen by residents in Pimampiro, however, as yet never heard back from some that I messaged, namely one from this site who was seeking photos and any other information, albeit their request was from back in 2010.

Additionally, the video was added on this website after I made a post to the site...

http:// viviendolos55.********.co.uk/ 2014/06/123-primer-aviador.html?showComment=1460895976326#c9119240850535045738

I'll always hope to find out a little more history of Lt. Cesar short life. It's just something I feel would be self fulfilling.

Regards.

Distant Voice

30th Apr 2016, 11:21

There is one last statement missing from the video, "Despite the findings of the Military Board of Inquiry being inconclusive, the Lord Advocate did not hold a Fatal Accident Inquiry - Reasons unknown"

DV

Shaws

30th Apr 2016, 11:25

Thanks DV, very interesting....

Added your input into the description field on You-Tube.

Shaws

21st Sep 2016, 14:59

Hi guys, anyone still around ?

There's been a development, I will keep you updated soon.

El Grifo

21st Sep 2016, 16:28

In Pailmerk Country right now Shaws !
What gives ?
El G.

Hempy

22nd Sep 2016, 05:43

Shaws, I'd answer but I'm too busy gawking at your pic on post #20..

Shaws

22nd Sep 2016, 15:40

Chaps, I've been contacted by Lt Aguirre's son, Raul. Very proud moment. :-)

I'm communicating back and forth via email.

aciaman

25th Sep 2016, 22:51

I have stumbled across this post whilst researching Jaguar losses in Northern England and Southern Scotland. We are in the early stages of planning a possible memorial, to another 226 OCU pilot who was sadly killed.

I was unaware that a memorial existed at this crash site and I was wondering how permission is gained to go and pay it a visit.

I would also be interested in any photos of the pilot if any have been forthcoming from the family.

For anyone on Facebook, the group I am involved with has a page at:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/aciauk/

We have been researching crashed aircraft for a number of years and we have been involved in the several memorial projects.

Looking forward to any replies.

Shaws

31st Oct 2016, 19:34

Hi

You don't require permission to visit the crash site. The issue you will have is finding it.
There are photos and info on this thread regarding the Accident at Bowhill, which should be helpful to you.

I have photos of the pilot recently emailed to me by the pilots son. His son was born just after the accident. He made contact with me after his step father found the video on You-Tube which I created remembering the incident.

Feel free to get in touch with me if you'd like to visit the site.

Regards.

Cloggy2

20th May 2017, 02:48

I visited RAF Lossiemouth last year. I'd like to go back, possibly this year and visit the crash site.
I'm hoping to build another website. This one based on XX759 and the Equadorian pilot. Time is the issue.
There were other fatalities in 1978 & 1979 at Lossie, but this was my first see off as a young Flight Line Mechanic. I became a Technician and left the RAF after 13.5 years. Moving to The Netherlands, I had no regrets leaving then. Only now!
After Lossie, i went on to Germany and 20 Sqn. Had a great 3.5 years and now trying to track people down. Site is live, but in need of some attention. Then I'll start on this one.
Being the person who strapped the pilot in, The whole point of my involvement in the Board of Enquiry was to assertain the pilots state of mind during the flight. All went well during the see off. The pilot was seen as the better/friendliest of the two Equadorians that we had. Who would have thought of such an outcome!