Pay as you Train

[Melchett01]

Just wondering if we have plumbed to new depths ......

In preparing for my next stint sausage side, some overarching-staff officer type in a bunker suggested it would be useful if I went on a specialist course at the NATO school. So I duly submitted the paperwork along with a request for clarification about the questions on the paperwork regarding funding .

Imagine my surprise when another over-arching staff officer type rang me back to say that I would expected to sort out my own funding lines for the course and to pay for it all on my credit card when I got there, and then claim it back on JPA when I got back. When I managed to pick my chin up from the floor, I did suggest that amongst all my other pre-det prep, researching funding lines and writing business cases might be a bit much only to be told 'not at all - your budget holder will really appreciate it'.

What on earth has become of the Air Force that we are now being asked to source funding and effectively loan the Air Force the cost of the training requierd to deploy on ops? Have I missed something? Or does anybody else think we have finally lost the plot totally? And this is a course that the Air Force wants me to do, not vice versa. Where does it end - ammo issued on a sale or return basis, hire your own jet by the hour???:ugh:

And no, this isn't a wah, wind-up or fishing exped. I spent most of this afternoon trying to sort it out instead of doing something useful.

[muttywhitedog]

What was wrong with getting an advance through JPA?

[Melchett01]

Errrrr, yes, possible. But that's what 22 Gp said and it misses the point completely.

Why should individuals be expected to research funding and pay for their own pre-deployment training? That should be sorted out, adminstered and funded centrally. No ifs buts or maybes, individuals should not be administering and paying for their pre-deployment training because the system can't or just can't be bothered to do it.

[airborne_artist]

Sounds entirely reasonable to me. On course completion you then offer yourself to NATO on Air-Bay (or Navy-Bay/Army-Bay) on an auction.

Or you could take it as a sign that the Air Force is now a Farce. Which is what I think.

My old man may well be turning in his grave - it's gone through dire and out of the other side :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Business case? Business case? Since when were we in a ********* business?

Line manager = leader

Having been forced to comply and write a business case that was approved I was then told to write a Statement of Need. ******** told ;em to get stuffed. If they wanted a SON then copy the business case. Paper!!!!!!!!

[Rigga]

I know funding is tightening but has the RAF taken advice from Mick O'leary ....................


Welcome to the RYAN AIR FORCE!

Where you can have everything you want - if you can afford it.

[Tankertrashnav]

33 minutes and counting and the troll's post is still here - wake up Mods!

On the main point, reading Pprune I wonder if I would recognise anything about the RAF these days. They still have aeroplanes (a few anyway), they still wear blue uniforms (actually green most of the time) and ..... actually I can't think of much else. And wtf is a line manager ? I have only ever been a member of the armed forces or self-employed - havent a clue what the term means.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Rude he may be but if you read the normal type font he does have a point :(

[Melchett01]

SFFP - I have to disagree there. We - the armed forces - should not be asking people to pay for their own training and then having to claim it back because the system cannot be bothered to sort the administration of said training out.

During the early days of TELIC when people were having to buy their own kit and then claim the costs back, there was a huge outcry about how the system was failing individuals. So how is this different? Just replace buying boots with buying training. Now, personally, the cost of the training is not an issue for me, fortunately my credit card will take the strain. But bearing in mind we are approaching Christmas, what if a junior SAC had been told the same thing? "Off you go Bloggs, it's an important course you'll need to do your job in theatre. But can you please cover the costs until we can decide if and how we will pay you back?" What does a junior SAC / Cpl say to a senior staff officer who has just told them that? Do they become potentially financially stretched in order to comply with that order?

This is less about me having to pay out several hundred pounds and more about a distasteful system that shows a complete distain for those it is there to support. We are supposed to be an expeditionary force, focussed on operations. Unfortunately that system is completely trashed, operations are rapidly taking a back seat to admin and hoop jumping which are the order of the day.

Tankertrash - as for the troll, I'm sure it will be removed eventually, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I actually chuckled when I read the accompanying PM - at least he / she can spell which is more than a lot of first time posters on here these days! However,if he / she wants to embarrass themselves, showing their ignorance and general lack of understanding of the system that we are trying to operate in and how it is broken almost beyond repair, then that is their call.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Melchette,

I am not saying it's right but the answer to your dilemma was given to you in an earlier post, sort out your own personal admin, apply for an advance and you like any other rank in the military will not be out of pocket.

In fact apply for the advance which goes straight into your bank, pay for the training with your credit card and you could earn up to 6 weeks of interest on the advance before the credit card payment is due.

Sir, this is not rocket science :=

[NutLoose]

Simply say NO, I do not have a credit card, only a debit card, so simply refuse and tell them to cancel their course or pay for it all, tell them you do not have one either...............

Beats me why the Forces can not have corporate style credit cards as most of the real world use that can be issued to you for the required period and returned post course, detachment, etc.

After all you no doubt already use fuel carnets that are for specific aircraft and can be signed by many crew, why they do not or could not arrange to have a credit card equivalent for stations is beyond me.

[NutLoose]

Come on then Mellchett we are waiting................................... No response? Well what a surprise. You are a disgrace to the uniform you wear if you have to resort to moaning here on pprune whilst decent men and women are losing their lives on the front line whilst you sit and moan and bleat and moan and bleat.:ugh:

Almost as cowardly and disgraceful as registering under a new name and not having the b+lls to do it under your usual one.......

I think he has a valid point.

[glad rag]

Won't be the first time some admin cock has tried to send people half way round the world with the instructions to use their own plastic and claim back 80% only when they rtb......

[Pontius Navigator]

The Forces do indeed have a company credit card, it is called a GPC. Only thing is, they don't like you using it incase, like Mr Smith, you put things on it that should not be on it and might make headlines in the Sun

[Jabba_TG12]

With regard to business speak creeping in, I noticed this happening in the late 1990's just before I left.

What with the plethora of civil serpents in lieu of an Admin Branch (and the recruitment into the services of people from the wider education system to whom phrases like this will be second nature, not to mention contact with the many outsourcers), I guess this was inevitable.

Paying for your own training though... I only saw that at resettlement time. For something that appears to be a pre-det thing though... Seems that things are reaching a new nadir. The mechanism appears to be there for JPA to be the means by which Melchett could/should be recompensed, but considering the reputation that JPA has, its hardly surprising that people have next to no faith in it. I'm certainly very glad that I left when I did, for the service is now one that I hardly recognise.

Far be it for me to say that we shouldnt leverage technology, but the problem is the old way worked and worked well... and half-arsed implementations of fundamentally important systems like JPA do not help.

I always used to think when I was younger that tradition was the enemy of progress, but I've realised that progress for its own sake and going into something half baked and ill-prepared is equally daft.

Pity that wisdom only comes with advancing age.

[Wrathmonk]

Melchett

It's not clear from your post - has funding approval been given for the course or were you expected to (a) attend or book the course and seek retrospective funding approval [perhaps because the requirement to attend the course is short notice] or (b) ensure funding approval was in place prior to attending.

If (a) then I would agree with your sentiment that it sucks (although if it is an op-related course then (if memory serves me right) your budget manager won't give two hoots as he will be able to claim back the 'overspend' against the (so called) op budget). If (b) then the JPA advance is there for just that reason. Quote either of the staff officers as your authority (having got them to confirm the requirement via e-mail) and hit submit!

Of course, being a NATO course it will be stretched out at least as twice as necessary!:\

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Melchett01. Perhaps I missed it but, presumably, you are being asked to pay for the Course fees. Leaving aside paying and claiming your own T&S, that is pretty “demotivating”. Whoever the troll was who Tankertrashnav spotted, it would seem the Post has been deleted.

Just wait until they make your career self managing. Imagine SO2s pouring through job vacancies every week looking for a slot for their SO1 promotion.

[Brewers Droop]

Melchette

Can't solve your woes of funding and jobsworths. Recall something along the lines of warfighter first...

However, I'm at home with swine flu :sad:at the moment so have time to post. I've attended the school a few times in the recent past and surrounded by others who also have. Have sent a pm but if there is anything I can do please let me know. A few general points:

Most people fly into Munich (Recommended). You can either take the train (About 21 Euro one-way - the train takes about 4 hours with 2 changes but very scenic once you out of Munich - ticket office easy to find at airport). Never managed to justify a hire car. As for the return, the school normally put on a bus to the airport on the last day for 20 Euro leaving early afternoon (Recommended).

As for fees, you normally pay on arrival but there are a number of options. Last time I went our financiers gave a me a cheque to take but that was NATO not UK plc paying.

As for costs, I've always taken the biggest JPA advance I can (But we do have helpful adminers!).

Best to arrive on the sunday. The place is geared up to inprocessing on the sunday evening. You can do it on the monday morning but more hassle.

There is a plenty of accommodation in Oberammergau. If you want some names let me know and I'll ask around as there are some nice places in the town itself. However, I've found the NATO Lodge itself quite adequate (Details on NATO School Internet Site). Short walk in the morning, has Wi-fi and the breakfasts are basic but okay. Only disadvantage is a longer stagger from the town in the evening.

There are a couple of self service cafe's on site. You can pay a fee up front which gives free drinks for a week (Recommended). You can do the same for the food. Can't remember the price but also not bad as makes lunch easy.

There are some excellent restaurants in the town to eat in the evening. Most are German (obviously) but there are also good Greek, Italian and Mexican ones.

As for social time, there is a NATO Recreation Centre which has a reasonable gym, library, tiny BX type shop etc. There is a pleasant waterworld type place about 300m up the road (Nice relaxing hot outdoor pool - enjoyable when the outside temp is zero). Oberammergau itself is nice enough for a couple of hours wandering but generally quiet at this time of year. Obviously, different for the ski season but still relativelly quiet. Garmisch is not far away - much bigger - excellent ski resort and a decent US BX (NATO Travel Order accepted). But also worth a visit out of the ski season. Many other areas are in striking distance (We did Berchtesgarden and Saltzburg on a previous course). If your going in the ski season and ski at Garmisch, we found it cheaper to get the ski passes from the US AF Edelweiss Lodge (next to the main Garmisch ski lift). Ski hire was cheapest from the NATO School. Obviously recommended for the middle weekend.

I've generally enjoyed the courses but learnt most from the perspective of other nations on the course. Expect them to be slow due to the language barrier (Most attending your course will not be native English speakers).

Leave half a day, preferably with a helpful adminer, when you return to sorte out the JPA stuff.

Anyway, back to bed....:yuk:

[Yeller_Gait]

Reason 132 why you should leave the raf.

What is so difficult about adminers giving you the allowances you are entitled to, prior to proceeding on an officially approved course? Ok, so you might have to claim the advances yourself as there are no adminers left, not doing anything useful anyway. Unless JPA has improved dramatically since I last (and only once) had to submit a claim for an advance, it is almost too much effort to claim for an advance, easier just to claim the money back afterwards.

Nowadays I speak to our sqn admin staff, tell them where I am going, fill in a short form, and the money is in my account 3 days before I go. Even easier for a crew det, the money just turns up in the account 3 days prior to deployment.

Y_G

[Radar Command T/O]

What's needed is an Admin Branch that actually serves it's purpose........

[cornish-stormrider]

It is tales like this that make me so glad I am out ( and I'm not refering to any type of closet here).

The standard of admin support etc has increased in its rate of descent since I binned the firm.

I am currently responsible for about 4 million in factory and machinery, when I want something I order it on my trade accounts, if not I use one of the company credit cards. I have a nominal budget to try and keep to and if I go over it so be it.

I am trusted not to abuse the system and use my integrity.......

Maybe the ****ty shiny arses don't think those at the coal face have personal integrity anymore. Must dash, I'm off to blow company money on shiny machines that go ping.

[BEagle]

What's needed is an Admin Branch that actually serves it's purpose........

Or rather, perhaps, an Admin branch which is allowed to serve its purpose?

[vecvechookattack]

I wish the RN had an Admin branch...... Its DIY in this mob

[Wrathmonk]

I wish the RN had an Admin branch...... Its DIY in this mob

So what are Personnel Logistician (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/explore-jobs/all-jobs/personnel-logistician/whats-the-job/)and Personnel Logistician (Submariner) (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/explore-jobs/all-jobs/personnel-logistician-(submariner)/whats-the-job/) if they aren't adminers?

Or is the 'DIY' bit more to do with the fact that your adminers wont 'put out' for WAFUs?;)

[vecvechookattack]

They are the Loggies.... they don't do admin. Squadrons don't have admin staff on their books...Big ones might but the majority don't. The Loggies who sort your pay out work in the UPO and there are about 10 of them at Culdrose (4000 people work at Culdrose). They generally deal with SJAR problems. When the Aircrew write the SJARs for their people the Loggies to the Admin for the SJARs.

[SRENNAPS]

Just wondering what the course is about or for?
Who normally goes on it?
Is it essential or just useful??
If it was a really important course to go on I am sure the system would kick in to ensure that you did not have to pay up front!!

[muttywhitedog]

Lets compare the procedures for funding:

4 years ago: Fill out a manual F300, and pass it to boss for signature. Send it down to Allowances for them to process, work out what you were entitled to (based on 80% of your Subsistence Allowance and 100% of your accommodation), input on a computer and then pass to account for batching and paying. The money would be in your bank 3-5 working days after Accounts processed the batch it was in. On return, fill in a F1771 and pass to Allowances who would manually work out what you are entitled to and input it on the computer, then put the net difference on another batch and pass to accounts for payment. Again the money would be in your account 3-5 days afterwards.

Present Day: Log onto JPA and request an advance. Computer says "How Much?". You type in a figure (can be 100% of your Subsistence Allowance) and it goes "Ok then", and the money appears in your account 3 days later. After returning, you again log on and put in a claim for what you spent, plus your incidentals. Computer quickly works out the difference and it is again in your account 3 days later.

Sorry OP, but its a no-brainer. One of the successes of JPA is the speed in which advances and claims are paid. No "staff sickness" or "gapped posts" to hold up claims. As a former allowances/accts supervisor, I know how prone to delays the old style advances system was - in particular recovering money from people who took an advance then cancelled the course!

[vecvechookattack]

Or an easier way would be for you to pay for the course yourself and then claim the money back through JPA. Like the man says, JPA is so quick nowadays that this is an easy solution.

[Grabbers]

But does JPA only permit you to claim an advance for Subsistence (100%)? If so, and you use that cash to pay for a course how are you supposed to claim for your subsistence and the course fees on your return. Or have I missed something? Would the amount you try and get back from JPA on your return be potentially around 200% of the original advance.

Computer says.....

[Melchett01]

SRENNAPS - that was the whole point behind my original post - it's a pre-OOA course needed for whoever fills the post in question.

The principle here is that the RAF wants to send people off on pre-deplyoment training, but the system is either unwilling or unable to provide the necessary administrative and financial support necessary for that training to be carried out. As I said in an earlier post, this is no different to TELIC 1 and guys being forced to buy their own kit and claim costs because the system was not capable of providing what was required. In this case, just substutute kit for training.

This isn't about some sort of jolly or time out of the office for a bit of personal development, it is an operational requirement and the system's attitude towards individuals. And that is what really grips - the system is broken to such an extent that individuals are now being expected to plug the gaps for operational training. The fact that our station budget manager is now looking into this and where funding comes from, because no one can work out just how costs for this would be reimbursed are indicative of the fact that the system is broken. All ops related training should automatically be funded and administered; individuals should not be running round, wasting time sorting funding lines when they should be honing operational skills.

Contrary to the original troll and some of the other more reasoned posts, it isn't about not wanting to do personal admin. In these JPA days, everyone accepts that they have to take responsibility for a degree of their own admin and personal / career development.

[muttywhitedog]

I had 3 years in Accounts, and if someone came to us with this sort of scenario, we would give him/her the money for the course in return for a letter from the course HQ stating how much it was. That money would then be held in abeyance until the individual returned and gave us the receipt for said course. At no time did we ever insist people paid up front, although many did pay up front and just claim later, purely to save themselves the time spent visiting Accts Flt. I would imagine any friendly Accts Flt would still do this if required?

The hotel bill can be paid for by a GPC - either the individual's or his unit travel cell if he doesnt have one.

The Subsistence Allowance can be claimed on JPA.

There is no reson for anyone to be out of pocket doing any course.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Where do I apply for a GPC? In all seriousness, I much prefer the idea of having a company credit card take the strain rather than my own, no matter whether or not it's going to get reimbursed.

If a JPA-permitted expense is paid for using a GPC (for example DS when away), how do you "authorise" it when you get home? Do you need to tap something out on JPA to say what you claimed?

[muttywhitedog]

Speak with your Accts Flt regarding the eligibility. They are generally issued to personnel who go away quite a bit. Common users are pilots (diverting), Movers (always away) and EngO's (recovery parties). Sqn Adjts often have them too.

If you spend on it, you submit an expenditure log and a copy of your bills to Accts. They will verify that expenditure was all legitimate and within limits, and pay the bill.