experience with the 112TC

[joris]

In conjuction with my thread certified or not...Anybody want to share his flying & maintenance experience with the Commander 112TC ?

[flyme273]

Many years ago I used to fly G-JILL based in Elstree (a 112TC). Lovely aircraft, comfort and stability.

Requires a bit of an airliner style, i.e. pre-plan descent to avoid overcooling, also no wastegate so the boost requires monitoring on take-off. Cowl flap is another consideration. Altogether quite a bit of equipment to control.

Not aware of special maintenance items, however by its nature, retractable undercarriage, Cprop, turbo, screw threads for elevators in the Tee-tail, there's quite a bit to care for.

With the turbo, flying the lower airways is ideal e.g. FL060 at 170 knots with autopilot on.

Regrettably, G-JILL was landed in France gear-up . . . (I'm not aware if it was re-built).

flyme

[englishal]

I have just bought a 112 TCA Alpine, though have yet to fly it because the engine is sitting on a pallet awaiting major overhaul and the 3 blade prop is probably in the shop waiting to be bought :}

I think the Commander is a lovely looking aeroplane and loads of room and scope for IFR touing. I got the 112 as it was an exceptional deal, but would ideally have gone for the 114 with the 260HP IO540, but the 112TCA will do the job pretty well and will have good high altitude performance. Not sure but I think the Alpine has slightly larger wings making for a better MAUW than the TC.

Be aware though that turbo charged engines have a shorter life expectancy than a non TC'd 114 so that is something to factor into the costs if buying one. Major overhaul is running at £25,000....

I did think of buying one in the USA and bringing it back. $130000 will buy a very smart, low houred 114 with superb avionics, but then you have to add import costs on top of that.

Regrettably, G-JILL was landed in France gear-up . . . (I'm not aware if it was re-built).
It is a TCA Alpine, and yes, it is in the process of being ;)

[gasax]

I would suggest you subscribe to the Aviation Consumer. From memory they have a few issues with the 112 - a lot of ADs and cracking with repetative inspections. It may also not be anything like as fast as suggested.

Aviation Consumer is about the only publication I have read which will list accident rates, ADs and personal experiences in its aircraft reviews. Money well spent!

[joris]

Flyme273,
Well I am quite used to planning the descent with my current machine I have to start doing that about 50Nm from destination when at 10K pushing the bird to its max speed IAS Altitude depending ..;-). With a glide ratio of 30 pulling airbrakes is definatly a No Do....Let's say around 130Kts gnd speed Most of the GA pilots sometimes underestimate the capabilties of (motorgliders)...But then again I wouldn't take family members along the trips I did over the mountains in VFR.
The 112 TC looks definatly more solid for passengers then my flapperoned 17m bird..:)

[Fuji Abound]

A superb aircraft - I did many long trips in one many years ago now. They really are a very pleasant aircraft to fly with spacious cabins and excellent control harmony. In fact we have been discussing Cirrus on another thread and side stick aside I think they have a great deal in common. In short as GA aircraft go big heavy machines that give a great ride are reasonably quick and comfortable.

I very nearly bought one a year back. An engineer I respect and trust talked me out of doing so on the basis that in his experience they were very expensive to maintain; the parts were also exceptionally costly where they are type specific. I dont know enough to be sure he was right but I do know I would want to chat to an engineer who really knows these aircraft well and have a pretty forthright conversation with him about the issues that are likely to arise and the costs - unless of course you dont need to worry too much about the cost - in which case if I was you I would buy a Cirrus. I know I am biased but it is marginally a better aircraft in my view but, perhaps as importantly, you are likely to have far fewer maitenance issues.

[wsmempson]

There is a normally aspirated 112 based at my field (white waltham) which looks lovely, but the owner refuses to go in or out of less than 800m strips and says that he has never had more than 125 kts TAS out of it, below 4,000ft.

[flyme273]

I'm not sure if a companison between a 112TC v Cirrus is really a fair perspective. They were designed decades apart.

This is like a comparison between a Jag XJS V12 and a modern BMW 335i.

Of course the 112TC will have a significantly heavier maintenance per its generation. Of course the 112TC is not going to win any fuel economy/ speed records.
However on balance, one needs to look at the capital cost of the Cirrus.

Not many private pilots could really - hand on heart - justify a turbo (the 112TC has no deice) nor for that matter retractable undercarriage?

flyme

[Fuji Abound]

Flyme273

I agree - I was just making the observation that in spite of all those years there are similarities in terms of handling and flying.

As to cost you also make a good point which is why I said if cost is not a factor I would buy a Cirrus. If cost is a factor I might still look at a Cirrus. I think it is easy to be lulled into an aircraft because the capital cost is low but of all things I know aircraft are the one where the capital cost of older aircraft is almost irrelevant - it is the running cost that is the key.

With a Commander you could easily spend £70K if you ran into a new engine and prop. or even a major overhaul, a decent avionics upgrade a respray and a few Commander specific parts.

[englishal]

easily spend £70K if you ran into a new engine and prop. or even a major overhaul
£22k for a major overhaul to zero time and £7.5k for a new 3 bladed prop.

[Fuji Abound]

Yes that is true and as always it depends on how far you want to go.

Thats 30K for the engine and prop and I bet they find a few other things while they are about it -the exhaust can has nearly corroded through and then the injectors need overhauling .. .. .. call it £35K sir, 8K for a quality respray, mode S, a couple of 430s and a coupled glide or a new radio and that is another 15K by the time you have paid the mod fees, a new flap braket or a few other Commander specific parts and another £10K.

I know I am being a total pessimist and I know you could schedule all this over a few years but I have been there and done it so I have a pretty good idea how the costs can spiral. With luck a buyer may do a great deal better but as we all know old aircraft can be a risky business.

[wsmempson]

On balance, although I reckon that my arrow III isn't the fastest in it's class, nor does it fly the highest or lift the most, it IS the aviation version of a ford granada - a pretty comfortable all rounder which you can get bits for almost anywhere and every maintenance outfit will know how to fix it.

:)

[flyme273]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ZNTVIyLi7nE/St8lhda1xxE/AAAAAAAAFD0/bFUPVIeMBRU/s144-c/GJILL.jpg "fly me again Amanda"

G-JILL at Norwich after a typical flight. To its former pilots this aircraft was more about a life style than costs. Jill was the girl friend of one of them. I believe the owner used it to watch his horses run. Interesting about it being an Alpine version. I believe it was formerly on the Swiss register, which would explain the Alpine and turbo option. To-day one would need a friendly mechanic in the group and there's always the fear of a gear up landing.

I concur with comment about an Arrow, or maybe Cherokee 6/ Saratoga - fixed gear version - some speed loss, but not significant - thereby bypass Rgear and turbo costs and risks. Pilots will never reach agreement on this one.:)

flyme

[joris]

Fuji,

I guess this issue can happen with every older aircraft you buy..... However I think with the current finacial climate you can do good bargains if you are carefull....
The most challenging thing when buying an aircraft is the lack of personal flying/maintenance experience. After more then three years of operation and doing maintenance myself I exactly know were to look for when inspecting a similar type...This remains a challenge when going for another type...If I would go for a older metal spam can I surely will try to get an independent mechanic along, who knows the engine and airframe type....I am even prepared to pay very well for it .
Its so easy to oversee some major issue that later on will empty you wallet..
Sometimes however surprises pop up that even the best mechanic couldn't have detected.....calculated risk...?

[joris]

Here are the numbers for the TC

http://www.commander.org/Bergcom/Tech/Documents/Commander%20FAQ.pdf

joris

[john ball]

My experiences with the old 114 (260hp) was that it was quite slow for the power and did not carry much weight -- look at the empty versus all up. I cannot image the 112 would be any better with only 200hp, you will never get four adults and full fuel. The best aircraft in the class is the Piper Comanche 260B or C. It would cruise all day at 160kts and carry four or five. The empty was 1800lbs and all up 3100lbs. This beats any other single in the same power range. if you really want to go higher, then the 260TC which is rare, is the one to go for. Even the 250 is great -- a friend has just bought one in USA for $54k. Have a look at the latest Pilot mag for the article on Comanches, or look in the April 2003 for a flight test on our previously owned G-AVGA 260B.

[englishal]

The empty was 1800lbs and all up 3100lbs
= 1300 lbs

112 TCA = 1750 empty, 2950 max = 1200 lbs, so only 100 lbs in it.

= more economy from the 210 hourses, better high alt performance for the same economy etc....

But i am biased ;)

[IO540]

I don't think one can compare an Arrow with a Commander, for sheer class.

An Arrow you climb into, head first and with somebody pushing your ar*e, with plenty of crunching sounds as the seats you climb over nearly give way. Eventually, having unbent all the glasses and headsets which you stepped on on the way in, and unwrapped the headset leads from around your ankles, you are ready to fly :) Before that, the back passengers have to climb in, and after you the RHS passenger can climb in. If he is a bit "big", nobody is going to be leaving in a hurry.

A Commander is a classy aircraft which you step into, from both sides, without disturbing stuff stored in the middle. Like a TB20. I would never go back to a single door plane, ever.

[wsmempson]

Of course, you're right in many ways, Peter - the commander is much nicer than the arrow in many ways (two doors, so you don't have to examine your pax backside in the way in and out, wider so a bit more comfy); to continue the car analogy, the Rockwell is perhaps a flying Mercedes whereas the piper is a flying Ford.

However, the Arrow will go comfortably in and out of 500m grass strips, is a bit faster than a 112 but a bit slower than a 114, about the same endurance - so somewhere in between the 114 and and 112 in terms of performance as mine with a Knots2u speed kit and a fresh engine gives a TAS of 140kts and burns 11usg ph - and has a useful load of about 1,000lbs. So the mission capability is not outstandingly different and is arguably a little more flexible.

For my money, If I were offered a choice of renting one of these 30 year old aircraft at about the same money, it would be a no-brainer, you rent the 114 every time. However, if you own the machine and have to pay the bills and suffer the down time if parts aren't forthcoming, then equally it is a no brainer - you want to OWN an arrow.

Asd ever, flying is a balance of capital available, verses running costs against performance. For my money, the machine which fits the profile is a 32 year old Arrow. For you, it was a new TB20. I can understand the appeal of the Rockwell as it looks a terrific machine and much nicer quality than either an arrow or arguably a Socata. But a different class of machine? I think not...:)

[joris]

Well altough not beeing a specialist on the matter it looks that specially the 112TC (A) when equiped with european airways avionics could be a very nice touring aircraft (IFR) for two adults and some kids (Piper is surely cheaper but yes with some disadvanteges also..).
If I can find a reosonably priced sample to my understanding the commanders are not a bad option
If I want to motivate family members or friends to come along for the trip the TC(A) doesn't look bad for a 600Nm Trip if you can stay up in >FL100 and get some better performance. Personally I don't like the mooneys a rather claustrophobic experience for passengers....Although I noticed that one can find also reasonable priced SR20's but then again with import etc ..your over 100Keuro minimum..
Really I would like to here the opinion of someone who has flown the type on long stretches and has owned it to get an idea what's really bad and good..?
rgds
Joris

[IO540]

I believe, according to one chap who had one for sale when I was looking, the 112TC has a ceiling of about FL250 - not with 4 people though I am sure...

Now, to me, doing partly low level messing about OCAS and a bit of long distance airways flying, being able to get to/above FL180 reasonably quickly is very handy.

A suprising amount of non-convective weather has tops in the FL140-180 range, as I keep finding on recent trips. Especially in the summer. I don't think an Arrow can outclimb that with any consistency.

The 112TC should make an excellent tourer for 2 people and a pile of junk - just like a TB21 would. And if rebuilding from ground up, one can get the details right.

As for MPG, a 112 can't be that different from an Arrow, or a TB20 for that matter - if all are operated LOP and wide open (FL100+).

The 112TC should be faster at high levels due to the TAS gain, with the turbo allowing a decent IAS to be held up there. But if you use that option you pay for it in a reduced likelihood of reaching TBO (the common "turbo engine issue").

I keep half an eye out for a TB21 but have seen too much downtime - probably this was due to a less than great capability at the now defunct UK dealer :)