For those who chooses the path to become a CX pilot through the introduction of international cadet scheme. I have this question in mind i want an answer to. :confused:

Lets say you are that lucky person who was selected to become an international cadet, does that mean you are now fully committed to spend the rest of your life in Hong Kong or in Cathay Pacific? (well at least i think that's what CX hopes u to do...otherwise CX is gonna gain nothing out of it...unless u make Captain) And for the duration of ur CX career...spending at least 50% of ur monthly salary trying to get a good life out of Hong Kong (known for its high living cost) i.e. live in a reasonable apartment and own a luxurious car of ur dream n eat out at decent western restaurants......However, knowing there are people who are doing the same job as you (an SO or FO or whatever) that are getting paid almost twice as much as you because he/she has housing allowances (through direct entry) and all the other stuff that a local contract does not include or cover.

It seems to be a good deal for you and a good deal for CX right at the beginning doesn't it? Because people who apply for the cadet scheme dont usually have alot of experience or technically none. But in the long run...it seems you are just getting ripped off by the company, when you ask yourself am I an expat or not? And you are an expat for one good reason "You are a westerner working away from home"

So...does this lead you to the part where you are going to eventually make yourself a real expat that has real expat terms and conditions after a certain period of service? And how are you going to do that? :ugh:

If you are ignoring this post after reading it, that means u are committed to getting ripped off in the long-run (by the statement above) or U already have other plans in mind after you have ur hrs.

If you dont think you are getting ripped off...then kindly leave a statement :ok: Will be interesting to know what others think of this, in order to see a different point of view.


Cheers :ok:

Smells like the "Fragrant Harbour" forums have just spilled into the "wannabe's" forum.

Did you want an answer for all 4 questions?

as far as i concern the only party that affected the most by the new CPP entry requirements are the HK local. i can hardly think of any strong reason to support those who keep yelling how cx rip off the international applicants. if you think it's a rip off, well, DO NOT apply and apply through the traditional way - DE, this "rip off" will never be your problem. There is no doubt that this international CPP shit do have an affect to the DE in terms of the total vacancy, but it should be minor.

FOr those current "expats" who complain about not able to survive with the local pay, well, no one pointing a gun to your head to send the application. I expect all applications are all mature adult and know the consequence.

in addition, i dont believe in loyalty, what's keeping anyone to stay in a job, say CX in this case & be honest, is their pay, benefits, seniority etc., and the consequence or the possibility to move to other airlines.

the POS of the CPP is a fast track to major and for those who can't afford the initial training of their own.

they prepared a FULL meal (all ratings ) for sell, of course you have to pay. OR you can cook your own FULL meal for sell and let them purchase it form you!

to a certain extent, the topic brought up is just another version of the expat vs local package debate that has existed long before the International Cadet scheme came along, though i believe CX is currently coming up with certain financial benefits to try to retain these expat cadets when they have enough hours/experience to go for greener pastures.

i hardly think expats will get ripped off by joing the CPP, given the program does give you a (free) headstart to an aviation career, and you aren't forced to sign a life-time bond anyway. as for loyalty to CX... under normal circumstances, i can't see there would be any such sentiment on part of the expat ex-cadet. not unless CX suddenly becomes a warm and loving employer and pays you richly, that is.

Yes after three years it becomes a rip off, HKG is too expensive, without housing you will soon realize, however it is free training so get in and when you have had enough leave. Current cadets are fighting for better conditions, the more cadets will result in a bigger voice and or nothing speaks louder than people leaving. So CX will have to improve the package if they want Int cadets to stay.

i believe CX is currently coming up with certain financial benefits to try to retain these expat cadets when they have enough hours/experience to go for greener pastures.

And when u say expat cadets, u mean a western cadet?

to a certain extent, the topic brought up is just another version of the expat vs local package debate that has existed long before the International Cadet scheme came along.


The expat vs local package...ok...people leave home (country of birth) to apply for a job in HK and getting pay more...i think that's kinda a fair game compare to the now the...'you are leaving your country of birth to work in HK without expat benefits if u remain in CX.'


Well i guess my question is...are people really all that interested or should i say long term committed in joining CX when people are getting paid less than a person that came from the same country or race as you? I know there are western cadets that have joined CX well before this international scheme, but cant say they are the same...because they hold a HKID...and im certain they hold a HKID because their parents had made HK their new home well before he/she had the interest in Aviation.

I think the reality is...once you have your hours....who is going to limit themselves to earning less than a real expat would...would you?

Cheers

And when u say expat cadets, u mean a western cadet?

not just "western" cadets, but all LEPs. there was a post not too far back about CX arranging for additional financial benefits for future cadet graduates, have a look.

Well i guess my question is...are people really all that interested or should i say long term committed in joining CX when people are getting paid less than a person that came from the same country or race as you? I know there are western cadets that have joined CX well before this international scheme, but cant say they are the same...because they hold a HKID...and im certain they hold a HKID because their parents had made HK their new home well before he/she had the interest in Aviation.

I think the reality is...once you have your hours....who is going to limit themselves to earning less than a real expat would...would you?


i think the ideal question to ask yourself would be:
when you apply for the CXCPP, or when the decision to become a commercial pilot was made for that matter, was your aspiration to become an AIRLINE pilot, or a CATHAY pilot?

Your question is a valid one however I am not so sure about the intention of your question.

There are many valid points being made here in this post and I am not going to reiterate it... however, knowing that a CEP (cadet entry pilot, as it is now call) only has a non-binding bond of 6 years, any CEP can leave whenever they feel that they can not reach their personal goal / target with CX. This is something that the CX management will have to work on if they indeed want to retain such CEP in the company after a few years of service. And this apply to both local and international applicants, because just to remind you, there were many so call local applicants who has overseas passport and are citizen of an overseas country as well. It just happens that they have a HKID card, so they are eligible to apply to the cadet scheme before it is opened to international applicants. So in reality, there might not be so much of a different between the local vs international group of cadets.

As suggested in this post that there have been talk about housing to CEP, but I think it is important to note that it is just talks / rumor. Is it going to happen? Nobody knows, but I will not bank on it until it actually happens. So when you are making your decision to join the cadet scheme or not, I think it is wise to make a decision based on no housing assistant to CEP.

Finally, I think you need to ask yourself the ultimate question: "Why are you doing this (when you apply to the cadet scheme)?" I think if you can answer that honestly with yourself, you will know if the cadet scheme is right for you or not.

Just my two cents.

wowpeter

I agree with your post 100%. I've recently been suessful in obtaining an interview with CX for the cadet program in Brisbane. I do hold a CPL and an MECIR already yet hve been told the 60 week program will still have to be completed. So lets take a look at what were talking about here. People whom are asking about housing etc need to perhaps harden up or go and get a law degree. I don't care about housing benefits nor am I worried about salaries. To some that may sound incredibly stupid but lets stand back and take a look at whats being offered.

Training that is provided free of charge with an airline that has won the skytrax "WORLDS BEST AIRLINE" award 3 times in the last 10 years and then an oppourtunity to fly their almost brand new inter-continential heavy jet aircraft.

You have to start as a small fish in a big pond and work your arse off to become a big fish. Yes it will take time and some serious effort but thats the nature of the beast. I fly because I love it not because of salaries or benefits involved. If you cant make ends meet on an S/O salary, either earn more ie second job, or spend less ie smaller or shared living costs. I personally would do anything I need to do to be that small fish.

clinty83:

'nuff said!:ok: though i'm sure EPASZ would like to know if you are willing to stay in CX when you are a big fish...

in my case the CEP salary package that CX provides is more than enough for me to make a living on, even when i have a wife, kids, and retired parents. the salary may not be equal to that of direct-entry pilots, and this is unfair in its own way. but no doubt, you wouldn't need to live in a cardboard box with your salary, especially when you look around you and see so many locals in other walks of life, living on half a CX pilot's salary and still getting by. i don't see why we can't... it is merely a matter of lifestyle and whether you are willing to adjust or not.

for me personally, achieving a dream is priceless. but when you know you can live reasonably well with your pay check, then it just makes you even hungrier to realize that aspiration. and yes, EPASZ, my chance of staying in CX after making F/O or above is pretty high, being a street-raised HKG local. ;)

By joining the CPP you are effectively bypassing the initial 5 years plus of GA/regional carrier time. This adds five years onto your career in a major. You have to realise that these extra five years will be on a senior captain salary. Have a look at the pay scales and you figure out if it is worth it.

Epasz,

Your thread intrigues me.

My first assumption was here is a failed CX applicant, DEFO/DESO/CPP Cadet or otherwise who is rambling on to make himself feel better that he got rejected. However I will bite! If only to put my views across becasue your post makes it look like we are idiots who haven't been reading the small print.

Flying is a dream. No one does it for the money. The time, effort and traning initially and throughout the career could get you far more money working as a doctor, lawyer etc.

Because flying is a dream and not a job, the rewards are merely a bonus. This is why many a prospective pilot will spend upto £90K of his parents hard earned cash for a fATPL just so that he/she (if lucky enough) can fly in West Africa building hours, OR if they have some spare change lying around, will pay Mr O'leary £30K to fly 737s for him.

These are the choices open to me in the UK.

That is what pilots do my friend. And for many hundreds of thousands of pilots out there, the majority of them will never reach an international carrier-let alone a top three airline (Cathay, Emirates, Singapore).

How the hell can you come here and write that CX is "ripping you off". CX will pay for your fATPL (Worth more than £100k if paid for in the UK) and then a TR on a 773ER/744/A340 worth an extra £45K+. OH, and 90% schooling allowance. Promotion to JFO almost doubles your salary by the way.

But yeah, you're right mate. I'll reject this. I'll stay in England and pay for it all myself. Then consider myself lucky enough if I found £30K lying around to go to Ryanair.

Espaz, your thread is pointless. Do you seriously think that there is any international wannabe pilot out there that would not apply for this scheme on the basis that he/she will not get a housing allowance-and hence pay for it him/her self?

For an international wanabee (who obviously can't apply to Singapore, Emirates cadet schemes due to nationality), CPP is by far the best scheme out there. It is pure Gold.

I have a question for you Espaz and unlike your "question", mine is pretty clear:

What was the point of your thread?

What was the point of your thread?

Is to realise CX has changed the definition of Expatriate...because from your post, i know expat remumeration is no longer needed for people that has a dream for flying in a big airline but couldnt do so in other ways. And flying is all a DREAM! hah...yeah...it is....at the beginning...

Im sure after a few years in CX you won't feel bad about the DESO (being at lower rank, working in the same company, and perhaps working away from home as well)next to you earning the same amount as you when you are a JFO , because you have to thank CX for letting you achieve your dream n skip all those tough road.

There are no idiots out there applying for CX....like u said...its all about achieving a dream that's all.

The scheme is gold like you said. Because it is first of its kind...N I could only say, great move for CX to have introduce this scheme to international candidates during this finanical crisis to help save billions of allowances in the future.

Triplespool123,

If your dream for a career is to make the bunks and sit in the jumpseat for the next 5+ years, then I'd hate to see your nightmares.

Flying is a dream. No one does it for the money.

The majority of us do it for the money. We're just lucky we enjoy our job.

You seem to have the idea the only way to progress in aviation is to pay your way into jobs, or take substandard deals without thinking long term for your career. Have you heard of hard work. What about starting small and working your way up through the industry, or do you have to start on a widebody jet as anything else would be below your standards.

Why don't you go down to West Africa and get some experience. Then you can tell us how your dream is progressing.


FCG

I am concerned some here may not have done their due diligence in actually determining the real cost of living in Hong Kong. Remember that this is one of the most expensive cities in the world to live and the standard of accommodation isn’t what you are use to in the west. A family of four in a gross 1000 ft² apartment, 870 ft² net, when you have probably been use to 4x this space can make or break a family. Remember you get to get away three times a month but your wife is trapped here in cramped living conditions with the kids. If you are single it may be just doable if you live like a hermit but if you are married with children then this is a serious issue. Remember your first year salary is only HK$33179.00 per/month.

Summary: Realistic Monthly Table of Expenses for a family of four.

HK$ (/mth).....
Tax 5,700
Rent 16,000 (minimum 3 bedroom 1000 ft²)
Utils 4,700
Public Trans 1,000
Food 13,000
Misc 4,500
Total 44,900

Cathay will make back in four years your training cost by not paying you an accommodation allowance. You unfortunately will be paying for it though for the rest of your CX career.

Current upgrades are blowing out considerably.
SO → JFO = 5 years
JFO → FO = 1 year
FO → Capt = 10 years

To be able to get a permanent base you have to be a minimum rank of FO so it will take you at least 6 years, assuming a base is available to go on one. Currently almost all bases are full from DEFO recruitment.

Lastly cadets here are trying their utmost to improve their conditions of service. The rest of us including DESO’s DEFO’s etc are struggling just to keep what we have. If you come here with the attitude some seem to have here that money isn’t important you won’t win any friends.

404 Titan,

thank you for your insight. the picture you have painted is that the entry-level salary package cannot possibly feed an expatriate family of 4, who are new to HKG. this is very true and i can only say that CX's LEP salary was set by assuming that the LEPs would live with their parents for a long long time!

but would this change if one were to keep the family at home for the first couple of years, and then bring them later when your salary package will have increased dramatically?

holdmetight

Possible but by having your family live in Australia you are now potentially exposing yourself to Australian tax. If you then combine this with commuting costs of about HK5000.00 per month you will be worse of, i.e. two houses etc etc etc.

Solare

I don’t have the time to do a proper reply now to your post but suffice to say what allowances are you talking about? If it is overnight allowances then you are dreaming. It is very rare that I come home with more than 20% of my allowances. Some places it isn’t enough at all. If you want to be anti-social sure and squirrel them away fine but life is going to be pretty boring, no friends and all.

As for the girls. You might think you are cool but let me fill you in. Most here will think you are a tool. It’s a shame you will have so many days off but with no spare cash dude you won’t be able to doing anything on them.

If you don’t believe me speak to some of the Hong Kong Airlines pilots to see what it is like to live in HK on a low salary.

Dear Epasz, 404 Titan, and Forward COG,

Thank you for your time in writing your posts because you guys have swayed me completely. Thank you.

You are right, I can not live in a shoebox, breathing in polution and living with 7million people on your doorstep whilst paying 50%+ of your salary for the privelige. I'm a pompous white westerner you see and hold myself classes above my asian friends. From what you are saying, I won't have enough money left over to pay for a couple of filipino maids to wipe my backside and cook my food :{

Also,the big shiney jets have never really appealed to me - at least not initialy. Botswana looks good though flying turbo-props on a few thousand a year. Hopefully I will be lucky enough to get that job (in this current climate) having already got my parents to re-mortgage their house to the tune of £80K.

Having built a few thousand hours in West Africa and being apart form my family for a few years, I should be able to get a job flying with the Worlds Favourite Airline - British Airways. I believe Skytrax were going to put BA as the No.1 airline for the last 5 years running but due to politics and our foreign police synergies with the USA, it would not have looked so good for Skytrax to do so.

If I can't get into BA, then I'll dig around for a bit to find 30K to fly for Ryanair - hopefully I have some left over to pay for my uniform, and 6 months accomodation during line training.

Guys, thanks very much. I'm going to call CX HR department now to withdraw my application. Who needs £150K worth of traning when I can pay for it all myself?

T123

Triplespool123, You are an idiot.

Don't worry about withdrawing your application I'm quite confident you'll get weeded out in the first interview.

I won't bother giving you any advice, as some of the other informed and experienced PPRuNe posters have because you seem to know it all about Hong Kong and Cathay Pacific..

Cronus

Cronie,

Thank you for engaging in name-calling. Really professional.

If my post did make me look like an idiot due to factual innacuracies or just the way I came across in an, admitedly, sardonic fashion then accept my apologies. i found it the best way to reply to some of the posters here.

However I would be grateful for specific inaccuracies in my post to be explained.

triplespool123,

I do agree 100% with what your saying. I personally do not understand the PPRuNers that avoid airlines because of the low or the non-existant benefits etc.

I would however like to know if ANYBODY who posts their thoughts on here are actually CX pilots "on the inside".

If you are on the inside as a successful SO but don't like the conditions, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE leave ASAP so it increases my chances of stage 2 testing.

i don't see how EPASZ, 404, Cronus and FCG are moaning - they are simply giving advice from an insiders point of view. why all the flak?

while wannabes and entry-level pilots should not be focusing on the amount of financial renumeration he/she will be getting, it shouldn't be totally ignored either. i did mention earlier that it is possible to live happily on a LEP salary in HKG, if one was willing to adapt. however having said that, it isn't easy either and it can be a bit of a struggle. i come from HKG and i know this for a fact, the high cost of living here is not a joke, even for people who don't lead particularly extravagant lifestyles. and the fact that one day you will get married, have kids and retired parents only exacerbates the problem.

for most wannabes, free training and the chance to fly shiny heavy metal is definitely enticing, and the emotion that comes with this opportunity can cloud out all other factors that one must also contemplate. i can understand this because i am a wannabe myself. but be careful though... don't say you weren't warned. living in HKG can be tough.

Guys,

I apologise if I have come across as a little sarcastic but what annoys me more than anything are people coming up with problems and not solutions.

What I mean by that is rather than coming on here and treating people like they haven't done their research, why don't you come up with other options?

Your posts basically had the angle that I shouldn't take up the CPP scheme. Ok then, can you tell me what other options I have that is on-par with what CX offer.

Triplespool123

"For the last couple of years, I have been on PPrune reading the constant whining and crying from people like you wishing back to the "good old days". And you know what, I'm glad we had this recession. It means the likes of you lot that frequent PPrune with your tiresome complaints will finally leave/get pushed out of the industry. I won't be too upset about not "winning" freindship with you."

Pretty arrogant statement. If you look at my history on this forum I have helped more wannabes get into CX than hindered them. If you want to come here that is fine. I have laid out the facts from experience knowing what it costs to live here in Hong Kong. If you want to ignore my advise then that is up to you. It's not up to us to give you solutions. holdmetight presented a possible solution to me about being a commuter. I then highlighted the tax implications of this. I didn't fluf the answer up. I suggest you get off your ass like he has done and ask us some serious questions. I will give you an honest answer if I can.

Cronus

What our friend Triplespool123, Matt.V and clinty83 don't realise is that some that post here are very close to the recruitment process. It won't take very long at the interview process to weed those out that haven't given any thought to the living costs in HK and what they would do if they couldn't handle them.

clinty83

If you don't think I work for CX I suggest you go back and look at my past post. I've posted here for quite some time. For the record I am a little bit more senior than an SO. I also love working here so I'm not going to leave any time soon. All some of us here are trying to do is highlight the difficulties of living here with no housing allowance. So please ask me questions. I will answer the best I can.

Matt.V

That is your choice. If you want to do something contructive for your selection process you could ask me some questions. I'm not trying to hinder you coming here. I honestly would like to help you if I could.

Clinty83, and others

I'm not going to be posting my CV on here but if you bothered to check my previous posts on PPRuNe, you'd see that I've helped many people in the past by posting advice on Forums and sending all my study notes from several CX interviews, to a Hotmail account, for anybody to email to themselves and use.

My notes had come from internet searches, debriefs form peoples interviews etc. So I felt they were a shared document anyway.

I'm not sure of the Hotmail Account status now but suffice to say when I started my course many people I met joining susbequently had used my notes successfully for the interviews.

My last piece of advice on here for the Wannabes is people like 404 Titan know what they're talking about. I've followed his advice in the past. Gather all the information you can about Hong Kong, Cathay Pacific, the CEP program and aviation generally, to prepare yourself as best you can for the interview. Then look at what's offered, ask questions and if successful, make an informed decision.

Cronus out.

All you youngsters - just know that we were all in that boat before .

We were all young and keen and would take ANY job on a bigger faster plane. The problem is that 5 years down the line when you don't care about that shiny jet any more - THEN the conditions and pay become an issue - unfortunately its then too late....

That pretty much sums it up. Its always been that way and it will always be that way. Unfortunately cadet programs make this worse because they open the door to bigger exploitation of youngsters which in general lowers the bar for everybody.....

Nothing more to be said on this topic.

Guys,

I have read the responses and I am quite surprised at the people that have spoken out against what I have written and others of the same view.

Your responses have been "We are here to help you", "Ask us questions" etc. Well this is strange becuase the original post was nothing of the sort. Let us quote the original lines that made me respond the way I did:

But in the long run...it seems you are just getting ripped off by the company, when you ask yourself am I an expat or not? If you are ignoring this post after reading it, that means u are committed to getting ripped off in the long-run
The original poster gave NO advice whatsoever in his speech - just pure negatives which is why I came to the assumption that this was a failed CX candidate.

I have repeatedly asked posters here what other choices I have. Do any of you seriously think that I will not apply for the CPP worth a possible £150K (inc TR) just beacsue I don't get an allowance? Even though every other Hong Kong national-7 million of them- seem to survive?

None of u s came here originally asking how we would cope on a SO salary. So why are you all now coming here saying:

you'd see that I've helped many people in the past by posting advice on Forums and sending all my study notesIf you want to do something contructive for your selection process you could ask me some questions. I'm not trying to hinder you coming here. I honestly would like to help you if I could.It's not up to us to give you solutionsetc etc. None of us asked for advice. The original post was a speech detailing the negatives of the scheme and as of yet, the OP has refused to answer WHY he wrote it.

NO prospective CPP cadet, international or otherwise, came here seeking solutions or came to ask questions. Do you seriously think that I or anyone else will give up this opportunity of a lifetime just because I won't get a houseing allowance? Or becasue 50% of my salary will go to accomodation.

I'm sorry but no one has given advice here-AND, no one originally asked for it. :ugh:
If anyone here is prepared to give me £150K to pay for training myself, with the GUARANTEE of a job in 6-12 months after completion, then please send me the check and I won't apply for CX!

Come on guys!

I do however want to aplogise if I came across as too sardonic. But I despaired at the original post becasue it was nothing but showboating. Giving a speech when no one asked for it and which gave no advice whatsoever except to say "You're getting ripped off".

When an airline pays for me to train and gives me a salary at the end of it, then I am certainly not getting ripped off. The fact that Hong Kong is an expensive place to live is not Cathay Pacific's fault.

This industry owes me nothing.

I'm sorry if this view is considered niave by the more senior folk that have slowly seen their T&Cs reduce over the last 10 years. I genuinely mean that. I would feel the same and I honestly wish you well on a continued career or a career change if that is what it has come to.

But no one has the right to come here telling cadets that they "will be ripped off" when it is obviously so untrue beyond belief.

If you are ignoring this post after reading it, that means u are committed to getting ripped off in the long-run, but if not..please leave ur kind comment...in order to see a different view

Hence i got urs and some others attention with the rather extreme statement. And with ur view on this thread, it presents to other viewers what kinda person you are from the replies u have against me or against others.

All along...right from the beginning of the post...i have only mentioned I'd like to see what other peoples view are...but at no point did i say u're an idiot applying for the program plus there is no way in hell i could change anyone's dream with a couple of statements because back a few years ago, I too did something like a heated youngester would do...but realise it isn't all about dreams and shinny planes...

And the other thing is, people didn't post against u for no reason...they posted it because they disagree with ur view and thinking. Therefore, the reason why most insiders/experience folks spoken against u is that...they see the cadetship in a complete different angle than urs or others who has waited a billion years for this golden opportunity, so instead of ur one world one dream concept and think that the cadetship is gold to everyone in the industry...we have people like <yokebearer> who have mentioned...opening the door to a more global cadetship is not doing good to the industry. Hence, making it not very well accepted by some group of people.

However, Forum is just Forum, we are here to discuss or debate (in some case), but it is certainly not going to change people's dream (or ur dream in that matter)....but it could change people's view (including mine) on things...by reading or learning what others have to say (e.g. like what <Cronus> and <404Titan> has to say about living cost in HK without Expat benefits if u have a family overseas or a big debt behind ur back). Because in this aviation world...we cant just think flying is some sort of long lasting dream and that everyone should do this for as cheap as a Bus driver simply because it is a dream come true.

Goodluck with ur application.

Triplespool123

Your responses have been "We are here to help you", "Ask us questions" etc. Well this is strange becuase the original post was nothing of the sort.

I didn't make the original post so I can't lay claim to that however I have offered to help where I can. That offer still stands.

I have repeatedly asked posters here what other choices I have. Do any of you seriously think that I will not apply for the CPP worth a possible £150K (inc TR) just beacsue I don't get an allowance? Even though every other Hong Kong national-7 million of them- seem to survive?

I haven't said there is any choices. If I had the opportunity to do a similar course in 1986 when I learnt to fly I would have jumped at it. I would have taken on board though advise from people that work here in formulating what I would do to make ends meat in HK.

The CPP actualy costs about AUD$150K but I do understand that in the UK a similar course would cost GBP150K.

Hong Kong nations manage to live here because they live like locals not expats. It isn't uncommon for three generations though to live under one roof.

As for the rest of your post? Your attitude will show up in the interview process my friend. I politely suggest you pull your head in and accept my advice for what it is. Trying to help you get in by openning your eyes to what it will entail.

Epasz,

Let me consider some of your points.

people didn't post against u for no reason...they posted it because they disagree with ur view and thinking.

Ok simple maths here.

Scenario 1:
I want to fly the big jets (apologies to those with a penchant for TPs and who enjoy "real flying"). I have no no money to pay for the training. It would be selfish of me to get my parents to remortgage their house.

Scenario 2:
A lovely airline called Cathay Pacific are offering to pay for my traning, and pay for a type rating on the "big jets" I speak of. Then pay me a salary for doing so.

So Espaz, are you telling me that you guys "disgaree with my views and thinking" that Scenario 2 is the better option?

we have people like <yokebearer> who have mentioned...opening the door to a more global cadetship is not doing good to the industry. Hence, making it not very well accepted by some group of people.

This Espaz is why you wrote what you did. This is the point of your thread. And you know what? I'm not going to have a go at you and others who think that. I accept this argument and I would feel the same. I have spent a long time on pprune reading posts from guys who have 20-30 years of experience.

They all say the same thing. Basically there are stary-eyed wannabees like me who will pay the likes of Mr O'leary £30K just so he can fly shiny jets and by-pass the GA method of working your way up from crop-sparying. Its is people like me that have caused "easyJet captains to be limited to 2 bottles of water" etc etc.

I get your argument. I honestly do. Because this sets a precedent doesn't it? Ex-pats like me who are prepared to wave-away allowances could be dangerous for current ex-pat pilots in Cathay Pacific who are currently receiving these allowances.

But, I will not apologise for taking this opportunity. And you coming on here saying

u are committed to getting ripped off in the long-run

is very insulting to the current cadets who worked bloody hard to get through the stages and are now in traning spending 60 weeks away from their family. It is also very shallow to indirectly suggest that interntional applicants are "getting ripped-of" because they should be getting allowances whilst their Hong Kong colleagues of the same age in the same training course are not.

404 Titan

Hong Kong nations manage to live here because they live like locals not expats.

Thank you for making my point in just one sentence. I need say no more.

Triplespool123

404 Titan


Quote:
Hong Kong nations manage to live here because they live like locals not expats.
Thank you for making my point in just one sentence. I need say no more.

Ah but you leave out the next and most important sentence:

It isn't uncommon for three generations though to live under one roof.

This is exactly how a great number of local cadets live in Hong Kong. Do you have a family you can shack up with in HK? If you are single you could probably look at sharing with other expat cadets. If you are married though this isn't really an option especially if you have kids.

Hi all

I have a couple of questions if anyone can shed some light it would be much appreciated

1. What does stage 2 entail?

2. In my initial interview I was told even though I hold MECIR and CPL I will stll have to complete the 60 weeks. They also said a fast track course for licensed candidates is being put together. Does anyone know any details on this?

I am super keen to get ahead of the pack if successful in proceeding to stage 2.

Save $150K in training to pay it back 10 fold in loss of allowances. Sounds like a great deal.

There's some good points being raised on this thread. Here's my two cents for whatever its worth.. (probably not much!)

Each to their own I say. The cadet program is not for everyone. Everyone's situation is different and everyone has their own goals and ambitions.

For me personally, I don't have the money to pay for a fixed wing CPL, instrument rating and all the rest. If I can get CP to pay for it and then gaurantee me a job at the end then its worth it. It also means bypassing flying GA stuff and gets you straight to the airlines. Awesome.
I dont have any debts, have no children and my partner is also working so spending a few years in Hong Kong earning a minimal wage is not much of a drama. I'm also from Adelaide originally so I'll have plenty of family support while I complete the initial training if required. I love flying and if I get a cadetship then CP will have a highly motivated and dedicated trainee on their hands.

However, if I was married with 3 kids and a dog, had a mortgage and my partner was unemployed then the cadet program would be unsuitable for me. Simple.

I guess everyone needs to do a little soul searching and consider their own financial/family obligations before applying for this program. If the conditions on offer are unsuitable for your personal situation then don't apply..:)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have seen decent apartments for rent in Disco Bay from around HKD 7,000 a month for 1 bed, or 10,000 a month for 2 bed. Say 2 graduated cadets share a place in DB, HKD 5,000 a month each (inclusive of utilities) seems very reasonable on a salary of over 300,000 HKD (source PPJN/Savills Hong Kong).

As for other living costs I found HK cheaper than London on my last visit, but as a mere tourist I could be missing something there.

Having said that I can see how those with dependents would struggle to make ends meet, but if you are young and single and don't mind living in HK for a few years (after all, it's hardly a punishment posting) then this would surely be far more prudent then splashing out £100k+ on a course with no guarantee of a job at the end. I believe that is the point Triplespool is ramming home, if you want to go into flying then this is by far the most attractive option at present. I would challenge anyone to find a better alternative financially.

To the other posters, I do appreciate your extensive knowledge and input, and I'm sure there are some who will decide that without the housing allowance they cannot afford to go down this route. For myself, I believe it to be a sacrifice worth making. Again, that is based on my personal circumstances. Furthermore you can leave CX after 6 years with a 777/747/A330/A340 TR with an ICAO ATPL (please correct me if that is wrong) and move onto more lucrative work.

....however if you do choose to live in Mid-Levels and go boozing in Wanchai every night I'm sure the money wouldn't suffice!

Regards, kofk

Triplespool123

But no one has the right to come here telling cadets that they "will be ripped off" when it is obviously so untrue beyond belief.

How about people that work for CX who all know the cadets are getting ripped off!

Yes it's a fantastic opportunity that not many get, however this doesn't mean CX can abuse those lucky few.

How about CX will pay for your flying training but you pay the money back plus a bit extra if need be for the company once you start earning money with the company? This would take approximately 3 years with no housing as an S/O and is the way many cadet programs run.

You seem happy for CX to take this advantage for the next possible 40yrs of employment with CX. Management will love you!

How would you feel after 20yrs in CX sitting on the flight deck as Capt and the direct entry 3rd yr S/O gets paid more than you do? Actually you are the lowest paid pilot on the flight deck, and will always be unless flying with another CEP! One day as a training Capt you also will train guy/girls who get paid more than you. That makes perfect sense :D

Basically just be informed that the international cadet program while a fantastic beginning may lead to unforeseen issues in the future.

Some of you may end up leaving CX for better pay/lifestyle for you and your family or remain and continue the fight for better conditions.

However, if I was married with 3 kids and a dog, had a mortgage and my partner was unemployed then the cadet program would be unsuitable for me. Simple.

What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?

As for other living costs I found HK cheaper than London on my last visit, but as a mere tourist I could be missing something there.


while expensive, the cost of living in HKG doesn't really compare with Europe. just be wary though, it is constantly on the rise as we speak. in a previous post i mentioned that it is possible to live in HKG on a CEP basic salary. that is given you are willing to/know how to assimilate in with the HKG local way of life, which is significantly cheaper than if you go to LKF and wanchai for your dinner and nightlife.

Furthermore you can leave CX after 6 years with a 777/747/A330/A340 TR with an ICAO ATPL (please correct me if that is wrong) and move onto more lucrative work.


i have heard of ex-cadets leaving CX after less than 6 years, my understanding is there is no bond in the CX cadet contract due to its illegality in HKG. not sure about getting a full ATPL though, given you start off with 0 hours in Adelaide and then you do ~4 years of S/O (P2X) time which does not count for much, so you might not get 1500 hours to unfreeze your ATPL within 6 years. i stand to be corrected though.

so the question really is how CX will entice these international cadets to stay with the company on the long-term... as for wannabes, caveat emptor! do your research, and if you know what to expect and are prepared to make sacrifices, then why not give it a go?

What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?

this is a tough situation in most circumstances, but encountering this in a foreign land would only exacerbate the problem.

guys, what's the problem here?

the answer to the question ''is CX CPP a good program??'' all depends on what is your personal situation and what are your goals. I passed all CX interviews, exams, went to do flight grading in Adelaide, and for personnal reasons I decided not to get into this program and left in the middle of flight grading. It was a pure personnal decision. I was supposed to be in CP35. Don't compare yourself to others, just think about YOUR situation and make the decision by yourself. There shouldn't be any debate about this program. It's either you feel like it's a good opportunity, and work hard to get in and commit to it, or you feel like it's not the right thing for you, and you don't apply. But there is no point in arguing about it. Take it or leave it. Do what is the best for yourself.

guys, what's the problem here? Exactly what I have been asking from the begining. The CPP is purely down to your own personal choice and it appears that the OP was just satisfying his/her own personal agenda - an agenda I have acknowledged by saying that its the likes of us starry-eyed wannabes who are lowering the T&Cs of our more senior members.

However the OPs 'speech' should have been placed in the Terms and Endearment forum where an abundance of like minded posts have been presented ad nauseum - especially regarding easyJet.

If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow). If you are single with no worries, then the CPP is brilliant in this current climate. If, as put, one has a partner, three kids and a dog, then you certainly will not live on 33 thousand Hong Kong dollars a month.

Do potential candidates with the intelligence and apptitude for professional flight traning and a 4 stage cadet application procedure really need to be told this?

Triplespool123

If you read the original post word for word, there is absolutely no constructive advice given (if imparting advice was the intention somehow).

Sometimes and most of the time...advices are given by facts just like what <SMOC> n some others have said (but i guess mine was more critic). If you received and replied it in a way like the others did (but then i guess that isn't u)...then i dont think there wouldve been so many posters replying on ur personal attacks. Hence, i think in the near future, if u are that unfortunate person...Do u think u could take the fact that u cannot achieve ur flying dream? Or are u just going to put ur parents or family into more debts? because like u said.

Flying is a dream. No one does it for the money. Because flying is a dream and not a job, the rewards are merely a bonus

Epaz et al,

As I have said in many replies, my amazement has been at why you started this thread and I have mentioned on numerous occasions about a personal agenda. PPrune welcomes musings but does not look too kindly on "blogs". And that is what your original post was - a blog. A "Dear Auntie" letter to the editor.

I took the liberty of looking through your posts and it seems you have not changed the record since circa June 2009:

Now that the Cadet program are open to all nationalities instead of HKIDers, might as well tell the world Cathay is hiring expats on half price (on local terms) you think that's a good thing for the expats who has spent years of accumulating hours to try to get a job in CX
Like I said. Personal agenda.

I also looked at the threads yourself, Smoc, Holdmetight, Sqwak7700 posted on and I think it makes things completely clear and proves my point in my earlier post:

Smoc 19 June 2009
If the AOA doesn't negotiate a decent package for these guys, CX will have a new low to aim for!
and the killer point:

Sqwak7700 19 June 2009
This will allow them to hire masses more pilots and get rid of the really expensive ones... you and me
I rest my case.

Like I said, I appreciate that schemes like this and starry-eyed wannabees like me and others are causing Sqwak7700 to write things like the above. But that does not give you the right to start a thread spreading what can only be discribed as poison. Is this a monthly blog you will write. Can we expect another thread in December on the same subject...again? Don't you find it boring?

Nicely said...

I got the answer i want from all ur killer replies. And i gotta re-write my topic to something more like..."INTERNATIONAL CADETSHIP...WHO IS IT FOR?"

And that ripping off thing that u attacked in all ur replies...I will make sure I check ur post every month from now on to see how u are progressing. Because it seems more interesting that way. But hopefully i wont have to Quote out ur replies in the future.

Thanks for resting the case.

I'd like to call a truce though :) lets leave it there.

I guess for a single guy like me, I never really thought how difficult it would be for a family guy/gal if they did apply for the CPP. I'd imagine it would be close to impossible to live on a SO salary if you are used to the US/Aussie/UK lifestyle and expect to live like ex-pats do in Hong Kong.

However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?

I read somewhere someone saying that they still get education for kids, medical insurance, free (discounted) flights for parents and spouses etc just not the Housing.

is this true?

Peace

TS123,

i believe the LEP/CEP package does not entail schooling for children either. as far as i know, the package for ex-cadets is just the basic salary. you are then given a small amount of housing allowance when you make Captain. check out this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-wannabes/382394-cpp-pay.html

though, things could have changed since the last time i checked, so perhaps someone knowledgable can come on and correct me. let's hope i am wrong :)

forgive my ignorance-what does LEP and CEP stand for?

LEP = Locally Employed Pilot, probably an outdated acronym now since international cadets are now being accepted

CEP = Cadet Entry Pilot, self explanatory!

However, wouldn't the 90% allowance for schooling be a very big incentive? Correct me if I'm wrong but is the only difference between a CPP cadet and a DESO the fact that the CPP cadet does not receive the housing allowance?


I just went out with 1 of my mates from CX last night...and he was quoting 60K/month (HKD) for expat housing....no education allowance i think for locals...plus i think most locals has now join the union to flight for better conditions...something that theyve never done.

But lucky for him...he has already made FO (after 4.5 years)(making alright money when his is kinda single)...But the bad news is, now that more senior captains can retire at 65 instead of 55...it is going to take him an extra 4-5 years on top of the original 10 years average to be considered for Captainship.

SO upgrades times are looking grey it seems...

Im not an expert in HK base airliness because i dont work in that region...perhaps someone else has more info. :bored:

Peace:ok:

Triplespool123

Just as a point the education allowance for cadets has changed recently. Cadets were never entitled to this but now get it if they have children once they achieve FO year 1. Currently this is about six years after starting. So if you have kids of school age this cost needs to be added to my list of expenses.

It is very interesting that this was only offered the day 90 cep joined the HKAOA.

What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?


RNZAF, RAAF, RAF, USAF infact any other 'AF' in the World. As an added bonus you get to do the best flying possible before heading to CX for 30 years of staring at a PFD in the middle of the night.

What scheme in the world, what job in the world, and where in the world would you ever be able to provide for the above personal situation on Day 1 of a totally new job? Especially after the company paid for your training, food, and accomodation for over a year?


Answer = The military :ok:

yeah but might i add that getting into the AF for any particular country will probably be significantly harder than getting into the CX cadet program.

Briefly offtopic...and following on from what Darbz stated

But I would like to ask the airline pilots out there without Airforce experience, would you recommend the Airforce before joining a commercial airline?

Or do you think the direction you took was the best way?

Finally, would you rather take a CPP entry or Airforce entry?
Personally I feel that I run the risk of entering the airforce and having to watch other guys fly better aircraft if i don't make the cut *touch wood*

Quote from "Speed and Angels".
"A. I'm stuck in the navy doing some boring job for 10 years
B. I have to spend the next 10 years watching other guys land on carriers..its just unbearable"

So what are the earnings difference between someone that joins CX through the DESO channel and the International CPP? Before I put down my maths lets assume that both these pilots start working as pilots at the age of 30. One goes the GA route in Australia for 5 years then DESO and has a 30 year career with CX. The other joins CX as an international cadet and has a 35 year career with CX. Both pilots retiring at 65 years of age. All income is based on COS08 pay scales in 2009 HK$. Housing is based on rental and mortgage assistance as at Oct 2009 levels in HK$. GA income and training costs are in HK$ converted from AU$ at an exchange rate of 7.2.

So let’s look at someone that comes into CX by the international CPP. I have based my numbers on 4 years as a SO, 1 year as a JFO, 10 years as a FO and 20 years as a Capt. Captains that came into CX as cadets are also entitled to HK$24,000.00 per month housing assistance. Based on this their total income for 35 years of CX service = HK$40,810,796.00. Housing for 20 years = HK$5,760,000.00. Training costs provided by the company in Adelaide were AU$150,000.00 = HK$1,080,000.00. If you now add income, housing and initial training costs as it is a benefit you get a total = HK$47,650,796.00.

Now lets look at someone that spends 5 years in GA earning for arguments sake AU$30,000.00 a year. Over a five year period this would equal HK$1,080,000.00. The average cost to get an Aussie CPL, MECIR with ATPL subjects is about AU$70,000.00 = HK$504,000.00. After 30 years of CX service made up with the same numbers as the cadet pilot above except only 15 years as Capt he/she could expect to earn a total income of HK$32,329,376.00. Housing is based on 15 years of mortgage assistance (current max) and 15 years of rental assistance = HK$21,811,200.00. If you now add all the incomes and housing and subtract the pilots initial training costs as it was self funded you get a total = HK$54,716,576.00.

Therefore the difference between coming into CX via the DESO route and the international CPP is about HK$7,065,780.00 or AU$981,358.00 for an Aussie national. Even if you borrowed the AU$70,000.00 for your initial training over a 30 year period at 10% you are AU$760,210.00 better off the DESO route.

404 titan,

This obviously took a lot of time and effort and really does highlight the differences. I think to all the International Cadets who obviously don't have these figures to hand, I think they are educated enough to realise that having no housing allowance for throughout their career adds up to some serious amounts! No one ever said otherwise.

However that AU$760'000 is your betting money.

1. There in no DESO. There are some posts here saying that it may start up in 2010 but will CX need that many considering CP31 and 32 are set to graduate next year? Either way I can't see their being a DESO scheme in Cathay in the future when they already have 6 CPP schemes this running this year with more set to start next year - and remember, CX are doing the CPP so that they dont have to pay the housing allowance anymore.

2. The person who decides against the CPP needs to have the money to start with in order to self-sponsor. I for one am not that person and I'm pretty sure the other applicants are in the same boat.

3. If I did have the money, there is no gurantee of a job even in GA. Thats certainly true here in the UK and from what I have read, its pretty much the same in AUS.

4. If I did somehow manage to pay for my traning, and be lucky enough to get a GA job for 5 years, is there a gurantee that DESO will have started up in 2016? OR, where is my gurantee that I'll get a jet/airline job?

These four points (and there are 1000 points more especially in this industry and in this unstable climate) are the reason why myself and many others here consider this scheme to be the only guranteed way into that dream job and why we have the opinion that we are not "getting ripped off".

But like I say, I thank you for your post. Yes I'll admit its shocking to see the actual figure presented to me. But just like in banking, you can invest little and risk little. Or you can invest big (pay for it yourself) but risk losing out on an excellent opportunity.

I don't even have the luxury of the latter choice. Because I don't have the funds to self-sponsor.

timeo Danaus et dona ferentum seems to be very very true in this industry.

Triplespool123
1. There in no DESO. There are some posts here saying that it may start up in 2010 but will CX need that many considering CP31 and 32 are set to graduate next year? Either way I can't see their being a DESO scheme in Cathay in the future when they already have 6 CPP schemes this running this year with more set to start next year - and remember, CX are doing the CPP so that they dont have to pay the housing allowance anymore.
CX has actually averaged employing about 170 pilots each year for the last nine years including during the downturns caused by 911 and SARS. Of these 170, cadets have usually accounted for about 30 – 40. CX are ramping up the CPP to about 70 – 80 per year not only because of costs but because they simply realise that the pilots they will need in the future to drive their expansion plans simply won’t exist in the numbers they will need from DE. During 2006/2007 for example it is a fact they couldn’t fill classes because of a chronic shortage of quality DE candidates. CX’s plans are for a mixture of recruitment including cadets and DE. Unfortunately there is currently no recruitment planned for 2010 including for those graduating from the CPP.
2. The person who decides against the CPP needs to have the money to start with in order to self-sponsor. I for one am not that person and I'm pretty sure the other applicants are in the same boat.
Regarding self sponsoring one doesn’t necessarily need to have the money up front. You can borrow the money or do what I did, work full time and learn to fly part-time. It took me four years to get my CPL and I had no debt at the end.
3. If I did have the money, there is no gurantee of a job even in GA. Thats certainly true here in the UK and from what I have read, its pretty much the same in AUS.
There’s actually no guarantee of a job with CX either even if you get into the CPP. Up to 30% of each class fail the course.
4. If I did somehow manage to pay for my traning, and be lucky enough to get a GA job for 5 years, is there a gurantee that DESO will have started up in 2016? OR, where is my gurantee that I'll get a jet/airline job?
There is a very good chance that there will be DESO’s and/or DEFO’s courses by 2016. CX simply can’t train enough candidates it will need by the CPP alone.

A guaranteed job in life would be the ultimate utopia. Unfortunately there aren’t any guarantees in life including getting through the CPP or finding a GA job.

Titan 404 and anyone else who wants to join in this charades,

I could reply back to your points. And then you can reply to mine ad infinitum. But I won't as I have no hidden agenda-and I'm bored.

So I guess my only question to you is why do you care so much and what are you trying to achieve? Will I gain your respect more if I go modular, pay as I go, do my 5 year stint spraying crops, then join an airline? Will I regain the respect of my seniors here if I do this?

You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it. Along with Espaz (as I mentioned previously) you have been playing the same record since June.

Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.

Forgive my cynicism but is this some crusade you are all on to stop people applying to CX CPP therefore making sure that T&Cs are not watered down? If it is, then its bordering on pathetic. I extended an olive branch to Espaz (and others against the scheme) thinking that this would stop this bickering but you just can't let it go. Seriously- how long did it take you to write that financial breakdown? An accountant would be proud of that.

Triplespool123

So I guess my only question to you is why do you care so much and what are you trying to achieve?

You spent all that time writing the finance break down, and a reply to my message and I just can't see why you are doing it.

Guys - what is the agenda? Up to now I'm still completely lost.

Oh boy. You can drag a camel to water but you can’t make him drink it. Anyway a number of others used their initiative and pm’ed me to ask questions from the information I raised. The information isn’t designed to put you off coming. It was designed to make you ask questions. The very same types of hard questions you will be asked at the interviews. CX is very well aware that this package will make it tough to live here for an expat especially one with a family. They are going to spend a lot of money on you so they are going to make sure they protect their investment. If there is any hint that you may take their investment to Emirates or Ryan air because you haven’t given some serious thought to how you will live here you won’t get the job.

Seriously- how long did it take you to write that financial breakdown? An accountant would be proud of that.
About 20 minutes. If you have a look at my profile you will see I am an accountant as well.

404 Titan,

many thanks for taking the time to provide wannabes here with such useful information/insight/advice that would not be readily accessible otherwise. just a quick question - for all our discussions, we have assumed that all cadets get assigned onto pax fleets upon graduation from cadet training. do cadets ever get assigned to freighter aircraft? and if so (or if the cadet was to transfer from pax to freighter at a later date), would a career on freighters provide any discrepancies from the figures you have raised above?

thanks once again for your help. it'd be great to have the opportunity to fly with you in the future. :ok:

holdmetight

There is only one Conditions of Service 08 (COS08) on offer from the company now. If you join now you are required to fly both. Of course this currently only applies to those flying the B744 but everyone that now joins CX will have this requirement in their contract.

OscarGolfIndia
Since the CPP started only a handful have ever failed
Since you have only done your stage three selection process on the 20th Aug 2009 you are not in a position to make such a claim. I’ve been at CX quite some time and have the figures.
And chances are, if CX has paid all the time and money into your training, they're going to hire you.
Incorrect. CX has a policy of letting go those that don't make the grade whether DE or Cadet.

One issue that hasn't been raised is that expats can use the housing system to buy many properties over their career, I know two F/Os with 10 properties each in HK, both less than 10yrs in CX.

It's all a gamble I know and could go tits up for them. The point is CEPs are NOT given the OPPORTUNITY to do this.

All expats know that it's the housing they are coming for as they can make more money in the property market than CX ever pays.

When CX gives pay rises they adjust the housing scheme! :eek:

One more point the $24K for Local Captains is NOT housing it is a level D allowance paid to all Local level D staff. It does not change or get adjusted with inflation like housing does.

What is this 'Level D' allowance for?

Tition404 is correct

I applied and was successfull in obtaining a stage 1 interview but got the old "while we are impressed with your abilities, other candidates are considered to be more suitable" email.

I have CPL MECIR and 300 hrs, a good mate has ATPL MECIR and 2000hrs. We both failed to get through the first stage. However I know of a young fella that got through to stage 2 and possibly 3 and has only about 2 hrs flight time. perhaps they want to triain them the Cathay way.

I'm not sure what they look for in these interviews and it would have been nice to get through but the sun will come up again in the morning and life will go on. I did also email and ask for feedback on my interview and again got the generic email "please understand that because of the large amount of applicants we are unable to give feedback" email. Still very very hard to find GA jobs in Aus at the moment.

Titan404, thankyou for your help it is much appreciated the airlines need more people like yourself. When it comes to aviation I have read a motto that Neil Armstrong wrote in his biography. I was reading it years ago and it rings pretty bloody true to me, it goes

Tell me, and I'll forget
Show me, and I may remember
INVOLVE me, and I will learn

What is this 'Level D' allowance for?

What ever you want. Only local, entry level Managers and Cpt's are Level D.

What ever you want. Only local, entry level Managers and Cpt's are Level D.

Fantastic...10+ years in the company and Capts are only consider an entry level manager....we are better than that aint we? :D :ugh:

clinty83

I'm sorry to hear that my friend. Don't give up though. Remember the squeaky door gets the oil. Reapply as soon as you can. I think it is 12 months if memory serves me correctly. Also don't close the door to all the avenues into this industry. If you are keen, persistant and willing to leave your comfort zone you will make it.

404 Titan:ok:

One issue that hasn't been raised is that expats can use the housing system to buy many properties over their career, I know two F/Os with 10 properties each in HK, both less than 10yrs in CX.

SMOC,

this is a Fragrant Harbour WANNABE forum - mostly guys like me without even 1 minute flying time. YET you expect us to already be thinking about a Real Estate Portfolio??????:=

Thats the reason why no one has raised this effing issue!!! :ugh:

FFS - what is wrong with you guys? Talk about a broken record.

Yes I get the point that CX is shafting international cadets on the CPP. Will you let it go now? Please.

You lot must be a bundle of laughs to work with.

Clinty83,

The fact that you had those hours (and your mate with 2000hrs) etc was probably one of the reasons why your application was successful and you got to Stage 1.

But then the slate is wiped clean (like with all subsequent stages) and you start on an even keel.

So thats the English Test, Reasoning Test, Aviation Knowledge (that a guy with 0 hours can actually learn in a week) and an Interview (which is with HR and not pilots).

Now for the 4 points I listed above, 3 hours or 3000 hours is irrelevant. I'm pretty sure the the CPL/ME IR does not include reasoning test training.

I'm guessing therefore that you were probably ill-prepared thinking that your "300 hours" was enough to get you through when it actually only got you tthrough to Stage 1.

And if you had made it to Stage 2, you would have had to do 2 group activites. Again 300 hours means nothing if it is obvious you couldn't work with your team.

I was just responding to "I don't know what Cathay are looking for...even though I have 300 hours.....my mate has 2000...and we didn't get past stage 1".

Perhaps it was that attitude that meant Clinty and his mate didn't get further than Stage 1 yet the guy with less than 2 hours did.

The guy asked the question - I merely answered it in my opinion. Could you tell me exactly why I should pull my head in? I fail to see any malice in my post to Clinty83.

Well Triplespool,

It appears you are not very forward thinking so god help you as flying is a job where you have to be ahead of the A/C, you better get you situational awareness together.

If you get into CX, you wait, you will eventually bitch and moan about not having housing when you see how much it contributes to life in HK, so don't say you weren't warned. :ugh:

This is a wannabes forum for people to learn everything, the good and the bad not just the stuff from CX.:=

CPP or DESO i dont care ???

housing allowance or not ... does not bother me

i just turned 20 .. i need 500 AUD a month to eat , entertain and commute + housing expense extra ...even if i dont save a penny at the end of 6 years at CX through CPP i will be happy atleast i get to fly and have food in my stomach .. all else is not important to me .. as far a family is concern will find someone who earns for herself and kids ( will cross that bridge when we come to it ) ...

apart from that "anything with wings, i will fly it like a man " - heard from someone smart .. why not a 744/777 at CX ..

well i just applied for CPP online today anyone knows when is the 1st interview gonna be held in AUS or Hong Kong .. ????

thanks people .. great thoughts on this forum - a few lines from me and my worthless humour

It appears you are not very forward thinking so god help you as flying is a job where you have to be ahead of the A/C, you better get you situational awareness together.So your insult to me is based on the fact that because I currently do not give two sh!tes about a property portfolio "of ten properties" when I don't even have an offer from CX, it means I am not "forward thinking".

Can anyone confirm that at Stage 2 and 3 interviews, the Traning Captains ask you whether you feel upset at the fact that you wont own 10 properties by the time you reach FO?

SMOC, you have now crossed the line between making a point, and being pathetic.

I've followed this thread, and it's obvious that we all have different opinions
Thats a great thing because its human!
But theres no need for "anonymous" discussion to turn into "flaming".

Having read the comments, and I will admit that i was one of the few to PM 404 titan.

I just want to conclude that,
a. It appears that triplespool is about the passion..which i believe all pilots should have.

b. what 404 titan and others have said are words from experience. So whilst when you're starting off young, its easy to believe in different goals. But as you mature.....and as your "family" grows money, housing, school allowance etc does become a focus.

My conclusion, both sides have their valid points. I don't think 404 titan has lost the love for aviation, I simply believe that theres no need to show it on a forum, but that his objectives have also changed a little. From the looks of it, to benefit in the long term for his family..and its something thats worth respecting.

So could we all just agree do disagree....and just close this

fooey

I tend to agree with those who've pointed out that it really is up to you as an individual as to whether this CX programme is right for you. The figures are there, do the sums and shut up. Titan 404 obviously knows what he's on about as he's in the pointy end of a big shiny plane with CX. Good job. I'd fancy the same thing (very much) but we have to be realistic about HK living costs too in terms of what they offer cadets upon graduation. So much of what's been said is speculation and bitching and is really unpleasant. I find in general on Pprune there is a lot of bitching and oneupmanship. I wonder why. Triplespool, a lot of your points are well taken but your attitude is awful.

Also, at others: Please spell correctly. It really is annoying reading crap English. ur, urs, and u are not words. 'It's' means 'it is'. 'Its' is a possessive pronoun. For instance, "the plane could no longer fly when its tail fell off." This might help with the verbal reasoning.

God bless,

SB.

Triplespool,

You're missing the point, I'm giving you warts and all about the program, that's all. Some have considered this and decided it's fine which is good, they will probably stay on and fight for better conditions in the future, others have decided they will need housing due to their circumstances which is also good.

During the Interview, yes you will get asked about housing, if they think you don't understand the pro's and con's of housing they may think you haven't done you're home work. Then they'll ask again and say what about in the future when you have a family? Have you thought about these questions? You can't say I haven't thought about it or I'll cross that bridge when it comes!

Besides finding those suitable to finish the course, they will try to sift out those who will not stay without housing, even though they say they will.

The smart thing to do is to get on the course and decide about staying once you get to HK, and not let the interviewers know this.

The interviewers will see through the completely blinkered "I get to fly a 744" candidates who are blinded about everything else to do with the course, they also will see through those have done '0' towards a flying career until the CX course was offered, the I couldn't afford it will be no excuse, if you want to fly badly enough you will find a way.

Good luck to all.

just to add to some more senseless humour ... by 744 you mean the 747-400 right .. lol

vaibhav
i just turned 20 .. i need 500 AUD a month to eat , entertain and commute + housing expense extra ...even if i dont save a penny at the end of 6 years at CX through CPP i will be happy atleast i get to fly and have food in my stomach .. all else is not important to me .. as far a family is concern will find someone who earns for herself and kids ( will cross that bridge when we come to it ) ...
Ah you have a lot to learn Grasshopper. Living with mummy and daddy has clouded your mind.:E

with all due respect mr titan .

my parents passed away when I was 17 since then I have been fending for myself work fulltime and fly as much as I can . I agree I need to learn a lot more , but I hope to do that when I am a P2X with CX .

well ... "in aviation if you stop learning even at the age of 60 , you will kill yourself or end up killing others " my mentor told me that .. sounds quite right ...

thanks mr titan ..

vaibhav

vaibhav

I am sorry about your parents. That isn’t an easy thing to deal with when you are only 17. All I can say is I hope you were able to stay in the family home and your parents had insurance policies in place to help you out?

My original point though was that you won’t be able to live on AU$500.00 a month in HK. Not even close. You then mention “and kids, will cross that bridge when we come to it”. With all due respect when you come to it, it will be too late. You need to think about it now.

I think we started on a wrong foot here .. I just applied for my cadetship like 2 days ago and have not done enough research I have never visited hongkong the closest I have been to hongkong was in transit HKIA . I am a person who is of simple needs i dont consume alcohol and i dont smoke aswell I cook my own meals and dont eat outside . maybe I go to the cinemas once a month . all i watch is TV and spend time on the internet to entertain myself .. well not to derail from the topic ..

just an assumption what would be the cheapest appartment to find in hongkong and with my given lifestlye how much would you spend per month ..

cheers .. need to rush for a meeting i have a lot to ask you

can I PM you ..

thanks

vaibhav

vaibhav
can I PM you ..
Of course you can.:ok:

As we know, there is no bond in HK as it is not legal. Therefore these kids with big ideas can just run-off when they start to see the reality of what the more experienced guys are saying. Regardless if they still havent unfrozen their license after 3-4 years?

So why shouldn't they grab the free training if its on offer and they get through? Makes perfect sense to me. I wish I had that break 10 years ago.

sirhcttarp/titan - getting a foot in the warehouse door is the hardest part of the industry. We all know that. So whilst there is an opening that doesn't charge an entrance fee (I see an innuendo coming), you will never put these kids off. I came into the industry with very little trouble. In this day and age, I honestly would have taken this route.

I will agree with one thing though- My housing allowance as a DEFO makes it all worth it.

betpump5
So whilst there is an opening that doesn't charge an entrance fee (I see an innuendo coming), you will never put these kids off.
I think my point is that while there isn’t an entrance fee, once you are in the rides are expensive. In other words a park with an entrance fee but free rides in the long run is cheaper.
I came into the industry with very little trouble. In this day and age, I honestly would have taken this route.
I think you will find in post #36 I said the same thing.
If I had the opportunity to do a similar course in 1986 when I learnt to fly I would have jumped at it.
I then went on to say though:
I would have taken on board though advice from people that work here in formulating what I would do to make ends meat in HK.

In other words a park with an entrance fee but free rides in the long run is cheaper.

With the benefit of Hindsight.

For the past 10 years, I have enjoyed the rewards of paying for it all myself after my A-levels in the UK. ( I tell a lie- dad ex-Dan Air cap paid for it inc TR on a 73-classic back in 2000).

This led to a job flying the 732s in Philippines and onto a 742F job before I was 22. DEFO CX 4 years later, allowances and the rest. (I could not live happily in HK without the allowance I will add).

However hand on heart if me (my dad sorry) was offered the CPP, I think he would have wanted me to take that route instead of spending his pitiful savings from a career that saw him made redundant three times!

Taking an impartial view as an outsider, I do see Triple's and the other kids' point that this, maybe,was not the best place for the thread-starter to write such a post initially-it really did read like a "blog" as someone put rather than some kind words of advice (or the offering of advice via the forum or via PM).

betpump5

Thanks for your input. While I will agree the thread starter may have been able to word his post better, the thread has since developed into one of information for wannabe cadets. I personally have had 33 pm’s from hopefuls asking questions. If the original thread starter posted it elsewhere the audience and my pm’s probably wouldn’t have been anywhere near what they have been. So in my opinion the thread is in the right area, “Fragrant Harbour Wannabes” because this is where wannabes come for information.

PS: It is interesting that the two most vocal opponents of this thread haven’t asked me a single question via PM. Says something really doesn’t it or maybe they just know everything they want to know. I suspect it's the latter.

Speaking of Pms Titan.. I sent you one-

you get it?

cheers

nkand

Yes I did. Thank you.:ok:

nkand

Check your pm's. I have replied to your question.

404:ok:

Hi all

Haven't been on this thread in a while but its interesting to see some threads since i've been gone.

One thing has got me a little riled up. Mr Triplespool can I ask do you have any training/licenses/experience to your name??

An insignificant handful of hours.

Hmmm, a wee bit of a sheepish answer. Put a figure on it please.

10 ish or so - exactly what was sheepish about my previous answer?

Because you speak as though you know it all

Boys and Girls CASE CLOSED.

If you are referring to my reply to you, I just ventured guesses as to why you may have been unsuccesful in your application past stage 1. I wouldn't even think that what I wrote was criticism but if it was, then I would think it was constructive.

Anyway, as you found out, hours mean very little in this type of scheme as the "20 hours" guy did make it past Stage 1.

The "not one minute to my name" was simply making a point against one of the posts - I think the post questioning why "no one has thought about the fact they wont own 10 properties as an FO".

My obvious point was saying that for most people here, with an amount of hours that is not even close to the standard 250hrs fATPL, they are not going to be thinking that far ahead with regards to a property portfolio - hence why "this issue wasn't raised".

0 hours or 10 hours is an insignificant handful of hours compared to Clinty's 300.

Triplespool123

And I can quite categorically say that clinty83’s failure to get past stage one had nothing to do with his 300 hours. He would never have been invited to stage one if it was. Failure to get through stage one is 100% related to your performance in the interview and nothing else.

Erm... isn't that what I have been saying in every single post in reply to his matter?

at least we have finally agreed on something 404

Triplespool123

Yes you have but the way you have put it across makes you sound condescending.

I was just responding to "I don't know what Cathay are looking for...even though I have 300 hours.....my mate has 2000...and we didn't get past stage 1".

Perhaps it was that attitude that meant Clinty and his mate didn't get further than Stage 1 yet the guy with less than 2 hours did.

The guy asked the question - I merely answered it in my opinion. Could you tell me exactly why I should pull my head in? I fail to see any malice in my post to Clinty83.

Triplespool123,

what kind of 2000 hrs your mate has (your mate? or form somewhere else, too many posts, didnt read it all)? I would not apply CPP if I already got that many if it's form regional or similiar. a year or two will be enough to bring your mate onboard the D/E.:confused:

Mizzy,

Why bother replying when you admittedly have not followed the post trail?

I think in this case you should read ALL the posts.

I believe I have the diagnosis. It is a classic case of ultra low EQ. Does anyone else concur?

Nope. Definitely meant EQ.

All of this jibber jabber means nothing until you actually get called for something or the other. Applied in June, still waiting. I would also like to add that the CX CPP is a very rare opportunity for aspiring pilots and should not be neglected. People who expected to buy a Merc straight out of school should stay away. Its a lot of hard work and we will have to make sacrifices. I for one, have no doubt that the CPP is a much better way to go than going self-sponsored. Not the least because very few people can even afford to go this way. Some accountants may find it cheaper but you cannot put a price on a well paid job as a pilot especially during those tough times. Housing allowance or not, getting selected for that program is the opportunity of a life-time and should not be neglected. It will take a couple of years before things get better but at first you have to make sacrifices. Anyways you start as an SO and I dont think you can expect much with that title. You have to work your way up. This kind of program will really distinguish between those who are there for the love of flying and those who are there for the glory and feel the need to get paid bucketloads as soon as they start working as if the world owed it to them.

Edit: Ive come across the CX payscales and even if housing is expensive in HK I doubt you will get that kind of salary as an SO anywhere else in the world.

well said !!!!!!!!!!1

FL999

Just imagine you are at stage 1 interview in Johannesburg (I’m assuming here you are from Mauritius) and the interviewer asks you:

Q: So FL999 imagine you have been with CX five years, you’re now married with a new born on the way. Your wife has had enough of the 500 ft² apartment you both have been living in for the last five years and is demanding that you find a bigger apartment or she is leaving. The only problem is you can’t afford it. What are you going to do?

These are the type of questions you will get so you had better have a good answer.

Slightly overdramatic Titan but throughout my 3 interviews, you were asked about the fact that you had no housing allowance.

The ones that got through to CP were those that were realistic about Hong Kong, who were aware of average rent prices and also the areas where one may live. Being realistic about Hong Kong was a consistant subject in all 3 interviews so don't answer with some "I get to fly a 747 for free so I don't care" reply.

Titan, I saw the pay scales and I thought they were pretty darn good. 5th Year salary (assume you completed 4 years at SO) then got promoted is just over 55 thousand. If you are used to paying 50% of your salary per month, are you really saying there is no 3/4 bedroom place for HKG25'000? Because according to my reseach, a 5th year salary is more than enough to go around.

Edit: Ive come across the CX payscales and even if housing is expensive in HK I doubt you will get that kind of salary as an SO anywhere else in the world.

U think? But you have left out the bit where u're not working at home. There is hardly any airline that adopt SO positions with housing allowance.

If you say Qantas for example...yeah they do have SOs...but u dont have housing. However, that's ok...because you are at home. If you are away from home...there is alot more things to consider other than MONEY AND LOVE FOR FLYING.

Lets take a look at why i think CX is 1 of the best EXPAT company in the world...

1. it is located in Hong Kong (an ex-Britsh colony) where Hong Kong residents still pay high respect to westerners because we have lived together for 100 years plus HK and the people that lives in here are still alittle more westernise than our fellow mainland compatriot. [However, If you live and work anywhere else in the world..e.g. Australia...UK or US...you are just another ordinary person. And when it comes to China, Singapore, Middle east, Korea, Japan (u name it)...being a westerner is not as respectful because the local rules, plus u r gonna have a hard time getting use to their strong cultural sense and trying to adopt their lack of english signage (unlike HK)...speak to those Expats that works in Mainland China...then u will know what im talking about.

2. There aren’t too many airlines in the asian region that are own by a western company . The benefits for that? I guess u can raise ur voice louder than usual and speak more freely (Then I dont have to mention why there are so many complains about HK Airlines in Fragrant Harbour). N u can look down to local employees and not worry about it.

3. You get a massive housing allowance working in a western company outside home and together, u still own respect from people that works with you. [Because in Mainland China...no local respects an Expat earning 3 times as much n do exactly the same work]

So what's this all about? I guess once you come out as a cadet...the 3rd point no longer applies (but yeah yeah...everyone has said it over and over again, anyone would take this golden opportunity to achieve their flying dream, because u wont have to pay a cent on training fee)...but just have this in mind....when it comes to the time where u r going to quit CX and find a better flying job...then you wont find anything too much better than what CX has for Expats (i.e. Point 1 + 2 + 3) Without point 3...CX is not much better than a company at home.

But of course....some people would go to the middle east...just because of their great pay. Culture-wise? ummm not so sure.

CPP2009,

Property in HK is very expensive, I'm sure we have all figured that out.

I think 404Titan is arguing that it maybe sweet when you're young in the career.
But as soon as you have a family to support, your costs skyrocket.

Its all dependent on the standard of living you're trying to maintain.

My experience tells me that ordering steaks will become a "sometimes" food..unlike the pub steaks you can score in any city pub in Aus.

It also depends where you're renting.......

By the way, CPP2009 I PMed you.

Chaz

EDIT: EPASZ (http://www.pprune.org/members/165480-epasz) i just PMed you

CPP2009
Slightly overdramatic Titan
No you were just lucky. It all depends on who you get. You were also an early interviewee for the International CPP so interviewers probably hadn’t refined their questions. I can assure you though variations of this question are common especially with DESO interviews mainly because of the high divorce rate of CX pilots. It is even more relevant now because of the investment Cathay is putting into international cadets that have absolutely no family ties here to HK and who can piss off back home at a whim if the going gets tough. In the past when locals were only eligible this wasn’t a problem and this type of question wasn’t asked.
I saw the pay scales and I thought they were pretty darn good. 5th Year salary (assume you completed 4 years at SO) then got promoted is just over 55 thousand.
You saw wrong. I have COS08 pay scales and JFO year one is less than that.
If you are used to paying 50% of your salary per month, are you really saying there is no 3/4 bedroom place for HKG25'000?
I never said that at all. I suggest you have a read of my posts a little closer.

what's the deal with your idea of "expats respect"? I find this idea very old fashioned and colonialist...are you implying that a person can get respect only because of image and money and skin color? I couldn't careless about the expact status or salary, and that's a pity if anyone is getting respect for these reasons and not who that person actually is.

Then you say:

N u can look down to local employees and not worry about it.


:yuk: I hope you are kidding?

About housing allowances: have you ever met cadets from Emirates? Well I met them in Adelaide, and no program can match theirs:

They get 3000$ a month while training in Adelaide.
They get directly to a First Officer position on the A330 with a starting salary of 8000$ a month + housing allowances.
Contract is only 4 years.

That's what I call an amazing program.

Last, you mentionned:

"But of course....some people would go to the middle east...just because of their great pay. Culture-wise? ummm not so sure. "

Can you elaborate on this please and let me know what is your experience with that region?

Q: So FL999 imagine you have been with CX five years, you’re now married with a new born on the way. Your wife has had enough of the 500 ft² apartment you both have been living in for the last five years and is demanding that you find a bigger apartment or she is leaving. The only problem is you can’t afford it. What are you going to do?

indeed that would be a problem if you're married. Honestly though, who in their right mind, would get married and have kids when living on a SO salary? If you get there already married and with children thats another story and I agree it would be very difficult to survive. To that question i would respond(thats me, in my current situation): Id say that considering the lack of housing allowance would most certainly be a burden if ever I plan to get a family but lets face it, i still have a lot of time to think about getting a family(again thats just me). So getting married and having kids during the 5 years after the CPP will be a non-issue. It would simply be suicide to carry such a burden without financial freedom. Once things get sorted out after the first couple of years Ill see what Im gonna do then. Anyway if I marry a girl who doesnt understand that im also going through the same thing she is and feels that I should do more to help her out when she darn knows the situation, then I think she wasnt worth marrying anyway.

Although this would be my response, it only fits my situation. young and single. i think that Cathay are probably looking for people in my situation. Judging by the cost of living in HK, they would not do that if they were gonna cater for older more experienced guys.

U think? But you have left out the bit where u're not working at home. There is hardly any airline that adopt SO positions with housing allowance.

If you say Qantas for example...yeah they do have SOs...but u dont have housing. However, that's ok...because you are at home. If you are away from home...there is alot more things to consider other than MONEY AND LOVE FOR FLYING.

true, but do all Qantas SOs come from the city in which they are based? Australia is MASSIVE, so a guy from Perth getting a job as an SO in Sydney wouldnt really be home, will he? Im just saying, I dont know the situation over there compared to HK but thats what I think.

Trust me, if people like me could just knock at the local airline's door and simply get in they would. Fact is, not everyone has that opportunity available to them locally so we have to take every opportunity we can get.

About housing allowances: have you ever met cadets from Emirates? Well I met them in Adelaide, and no program can match theirs:

They get 3000$ a month while training in Adelaide.
They get directly to a First Officer position on the A330 with a starting salary of 8000$ a month + housing allowances.
Contract is only 4 years.

Fark, that is some contract. Sounds a bit too good to be true though dont you think? Ive never heard of the Emirates cadet pilot program. Can you link me please? Also im pretty sure its reserved for UAE nationals anyway.

Fark, that is some contract. Sounds a bit too good to be true though dont you think? Ive never heard of the Emirates cadet pilot program. Can you link me please? Also im pretty sure its reserved for UAE nationals anyway.

Hi,

I've spoken to 5-6 of them independantly while I was doing flight grading in Adelaide, and they all told me the same thing so it must be true. And it is reserved only for UAE nationals.

what's the deal with your idea of "expats respect"? I find this idea very old fashioned and colonialist...are you implying that a person can get respect only because of image and money and skin color? I couldn't careless about the expact status or salary, and that's a pity if anyone is getting respect for these reasons and not who that person actually is.

Just put urself in this situation. Say you are an (Australian, Britain whatever...working at home...suddenly there is a big bloom in the industry and the airlines are short of pilots. Then what happen next is the airlines start recruiting pilots from Asia (If at this point you are thinking...YEAH RIGHT...as if we need pilots from Asia...then you might be alittle discrinminative...but lets just imagine) and give them 2 times ur salary plus housing and all that. How would u feel? Tell me...you are going to respect them just like u would when u know this is ur home land? Because this is the case in China right now, Expats are highly discriminated by the locals just because of that reason. It doesn't matter if u are a super nice guy or a guy with obsolutely no problem with race...u still get discriminated. So does this make this place (HK) alittle better from what ive just said, do u feel discriminated in HK or in CX for that matter? If not...why do u think you ain't discriminated?

N u can look down to local employees and not worry about it.

And can u tell me why expats in Hong Kong Airlines couldn't fought like those in CX for better terms and condition? Hence, they are all forced to leave or get a 30-40% paycut plus all the expats benefits down the drain without much to say? I think its obvious that the Chinese runs the Management in HK airlines, where as CX is ruled by foreign shareholders. If you are a CX Expat pilot...tell me...do u guys ever hangout with local pilots? If not? why not?

About housing allowances: have you ever met cadets from Emirates? Well I met them in Adelaide, and no program can match theirs:


And thx FL999 u have made the statement i wanted to make

I don't mean to disrespect you or start an argument, but you didn't really answer to my message, and you kind of contradict yourself with your previous message.

About Emirates, why don't you believe it? as I said, 5-6 cadets told me the same thing and I don't find it surprising. Etihad did offer a 4 years contract, with a salary of 2000$ a month while training and about 6500$/month the first year as an FO on the A320 + housing, so I guess Emirates can do better.

About Emirates, why don't you believe it? as I said, 5-6 cadets told me the same thing and I don't find it surprising. Etihad did offer a 4 years contract, with a salary of 2000$ a month while training and about 6500$/month the first year as an FO on the A320 + housing, so I guess Emirates can do better.

Ive been to one of the assessments and the monthly salary during training is $10xx, and first salary is cut by 40% to accomodate training cost 'loan which equals about $4000.

That is the best contract ive seen but if you have spoken to cadets then thats ok.

Emirates isnt better off than Etihad, from what I heard(from a very high up and reliable source) Etihad is actually helping Emirates out financially so those conditions you were mentioning seemed over the top for an airline going through a major crisis. Then again I dont know, you're the one who talked to those guys.

indeed that would be a problem if you're married. Honestly though, who in their right mind, would get married and have kids when living on a SO salary? If you get there already married and with children thats another story and I agree it would be very difficult to survive. To that question i would respond(thats me, in my current situation): Id say that considering the lack of housing allowance would most certainly be a burden if ever I plan to get a family but lets face it, i still have a lot of time to think about getting a family(again thats just me). So getting married and having kids during the 5 years after the CPP will be a non-issue. It would simply be suicide to carry such a burden without financial freedom. Once things get sorted out after the first couple of years Ill see what Im gonna do then. Anyway if I marry a girl who doesnt understand that im also going through the same thing she is and feels that I should do more to help her out when she darn knows the situation, then I think she wasnt worth marrying anyway.

FL999 you seem to have everything planned out but have you considered the possibility of what happens when things dont turn out as planned as they tend to always do?

Very nice to sit here and say well I wouldnt do this and I wouldnt do that but you would be very very naive not to acknowledge the possibility of that happening. As 404 titan has pointed out Im sure the CX interviewers would be clued up to this. Hong Kong is expensive thats a fact more so if your are an expat as you have different lifestyle choices. To say that you would instantly get rid of that lifestyle is absurd, much like the gent saying that he survives on 500 a month is Aus! Life is meant to be enjoyed not endured. What good is flying a shiny jet if you go home to a miserable existance?

I personally have experience of this as I was all set to be moving to CX llast year and put my life on hold and guess what, life still on hold waiting for the phone call, career moving on but not wanting to make roots where I am becuase in the back of the mind you always have to think what if!

Please heed 404 and others advice and dont blindly rush into this for the shiny jet. At the end of the day its a job and a poor paying one for an expat considering what you could make as a DESO

I don't mean to disrespect you or start an argument, but you didn't really answer to my message, and you kind of contradict yourself with your previous message.


What im trying to imply is, we (local employee, local pilots etc) probably pay more respect to Expats pilots than anywhere else in the world. And we have this because HK doesn't have a very strong nationalism or religious background compare to other countries since HK were colonised for 100 years. So yes i guess Expats (differentiated by image, money and skin color) are still given more respect than our fellow people in Mainland China. Because I know the fact that working as an expat pilot in Mainland China is a nightmare if you can't get use to their unique culture.

But i dont see we will get the same respect if we are to work in your country of origin, not to say...getting more money than locals...etc.

Little off topic...but i hope i answer your question regarding 'expat respect'

EPASZ,

thanks, I understand what you mean. I see your point. So again it comes down to personnal preferences and choices wether to get in this program or not.

RHODES, you are absolutely right! you mentionned some of the reasons why I decided to leave the process in Adelaide.

Again, it does not mean that a right or wrong decision exists about getting in. It all depends on YOUR situation.

Think well, and if you think this program is meant for you then work hard and do your best! CX is a great airline of course, the staff are really nice and the cadets are super nice, so you will enjoy it !

well said mate !!!!!!!

At the end of the day its a job and a poor paying one for an expat considering what you could make as a DESOQuite a gamble as someone wrote earlier - To pay for it all yourself and still think that not only will you get a GA/Jet job to get CX DESO Minimum hours but to think that you will also make it onto the course when you consider the competition......

....If/When there is another DESO course???

My fellow cadets and I are of two parties - Either we can not afford the training costs and/or we are not prepared to gamble if we do.

Is there anyone out there that can please just accept this basic Math? Perhaps even lend some encouragement and support to cadets who are training, where after graduation will want to know it was all worth it rather than being considered sell-outs?

well just one quick question .. how will CX contact you ... via e-mail or phone for your first round of the interviews .. I just applied 6 days ago was wondering if I will be called for the interview which is going to be held in Sydney at end of this month ..I read it in other threads ..

please let me know ..

:-) thanks guys

i'm not quite sure why cadets would/can be seen as "sell-outs". it is just another path towards the big dream, isn't it?

That is what I thought. But 7 pages appears to say otherwise.

well just one quick question .. how will CX contact you ... via e-mail or phone for your first round of the interviews .. I just applied 6 days ago was wondering if I will be called for the interview which is going to be held in Sydney at end of this month ..I read it in other threads ..

please let me know ..

:-) thanks guys "



anyone :-)

That is what I thought. But 7 pages appears to say otherwise.

i don't think anyone here is against the existence of the cadet program or the mentality of current/ex-cadets, for that matter. i, for one, certainly don't see myself as a sell-out to all the DE pilots, and i am an aspiring cadet. it all depends on what is best for yourself.

i'd say the arguments in these 7 pages are about people not exercising thorough consideration prior to applying for the program.

Holdmetight,

i'd say the arguments in these 7 pages are about people not exercising thorough consideration prior to applying for the programThe way things are written and the assumptions that these arguments are based on leads me to believe that there is something a little deeper. I could quote unquote the proof of this but it appears Triplespool has done it for me.

There just seems to be a little bit more animosity and despair from the likes of Espaz and Titan404 towards the scheme and for the life of me, I just can't see where this originates from.

P.s Vaibav - we thank you for your support on each post raised. Perhaps you could stop it now?:ok:

hey CPP i have sent you a PM thanks for your co-operation ...

thanks

cp2009 not knowing titan404 I cant speak on behalf of him but perhaps the reason he is speaking the way he his is because he knows of what he speaks?

Perhaps as has been said before this is a deal that is to be considered but too many people in here are ignoring the salient negative points put to them by others? It is human nature to only hear what you want to hear but I bet you anything that those same people on here that are seeing the cadet scheme through rose tinted glasses will be the same people on pprune in a few years bitching how bad it is at CX and to stay away!

Have you asked yourself what you are going to do if the company wins the court case in relation to BPP? What will happen if you stagnate as a SO as the conpany employs DEFO over the top of you and now your time to upgrade blows out? No pay rises on the horizon. You dont have the option of at least having them pay for your medical, housing and schooling nope thats all up to you. Can't move to a base as they are all jammed up at the moment and more importantly cant move to any other airline in the world as no one recognises SO time.

So now you are stuck what do you do now? Grin and bear it?

Being a cynic ask yourself why CX has opted for this scheme in a time of a massive unemployment of pilots? Do you think its a lovely way to lock in cheap labour that will effectively be indentured to the company for the better part of a decade?

Then we have people saying that this is the only way in and that going any other way is at best a huge risk. Welcome to the world of aviation! As a career its massively risky, cadets could fail the course (30 percent failure rate as quoted before) or once on line you could fail your line or sim checks and god forbid you lose your medical over something trivial and then have to fight and fight for it back. This is before we even mention the hugely cyclical nature of the idustry which has already seen thousands and thousands of type rated guys being dumped onto the market in NA and europe!

Youre on the course and Im happy for you, its lovely to hit the toga button on the threshhold and see the world slide beneath you at FL380 but please dont let the initial euphoria of passing cloud your judgement of how and why this has been created! Remember at the end of the day its just a job.

Please lets have some realism here not fantasies theres to much of that already!

Rhodes,

I hate to come here and quote other people but whilst T123's reception was ill-received due to his manner of his posts, I can but only quote them as they do make good points.

And whilst we are on the subject of "manners" and "tone" of posts, I see his posts completely on-par with the way Espaz, T404 have conducted themselves.

Rhodes, you said:

cp2009 not knowing titan404 I cant speak on behalf of him but perhaps the reason he is speaking the way he his is because he knows of what he speaks?

Perhaps as has been said before this is a deal that is to be considered but too many people in here are ignoring the salient negative points put to them by others?Once again, I can only quote from T123. The very first post that started this thread was nothing but blogging and a well-put Letter-to-the-Editor, as has been said.

Fair enough, if the first post was, "My name is XXX and I am so thankful that I am on this course. I will have women falling at my feet and have flash cars and shed-loads of money", then yes!! Please-lets hear all the contradictory posts.

But that was not the first post. The first post as has been stated gave no advice whatsoever and was said in a very ill-manner.

Let us also not ignore the geeky research T123 did by looking at the posts of said members and the threads they contributed to from July or June whatever it was. The record indeed does seem to have been on repeat since then and those threads in question once again were not threads based on prospective cadets asking for advice. They really were nothing but musings, ranting and just purely negative feelings that do indeed betray the fact that there may be a hidden agenda.

Fair enough, the likes of FL999 does step on my point somewhat, but again I feel those type of responses are like T123's - simply based on the way certain senior members on here have conducted themselves.

Am I missing something here because I am just so so lost as to why the likes of T404 and Espaz care so much?. Is there something I should know about? Are CPP cadets negatively affecting you in ways that makes you come here and spend copious amounts of effort in presenting your case? Why is there such disdain against the course or the cadets?

Rhodes, all those negative aspects you mentioned like losing a medical, failing exams is found in every airline.

FL999 you seem to have everything planned out but have you considered the possibility of what happens when things dont turn out as planned as they tend to always do?

yes i have thought about that. There are however things that you can control. Im definitely young enough to control the fact that getting married and having children will not be an issue anytime soon. Mind you im not 15. Im an adult and ive been in the working world for a while now. Until now I have been able to focus on my priorities while living life to its max. As mentioned by CPP2009 some people simply cannot afford to go self-sponsored. Im one of those. I live in a country where the standard of living simply isnt high enough to be able to save up to go private. I did the math earlier. If I saved my monthly salary(all of it) id need to save for 20 years to get the budget required. Obviously with promotion and salary increases decrease that to 10-15. You will understand that this is not an option. I have lived in very bad conditions in the past and know what it is. Dont worry, I dont live an expensive lifestyle. I live a very simple life and will do with the local way of life in HK no problems. I am young enough and ready to make the required sacrifices for the first 6-7 years of my career. If thats what it takes to get started it wont be a problem. Once you get into your thirties and things still havent changed then decisions will have to be made. until then I am not worried. There are simply not enough opportunities out there to disregard this one. Especially for someone in my situation. As I said it all depends on your background, your motivation and your current situation. My situation is simple so no problems there.

If the scheme is really that bad i reckon things will change in the future. Honestly, why would CX pay hundreds of thousands of dollars on training cadets if its to put them in the jumpseat for 10 years which would eventually force them to leave? I just dont understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain.

hey cpp 2009 .. i have sent you a PM if you dont mind please reply thanks

vaibhav dattani
wannabe CX - CPP
P.S= Very Very Very Well Said ....!!!!!!!!!

CPP2009,

I gave up 3 pages ago so give up and stop wasting your breath.

There is a hidden agenda and it is sooooooo obvious what it is yet the prruners that have come on here with their unwanted and 'never asked for remarks' are not brave enough to actually say what is really bugging them. Fear?

Anyway, congratulations on getting on the course and GOOD LUCK when it comes to working for these so-called professionals.

I've realised something! Its not the lack of housing allowance that has put me off-its you guys! Well, at least you turned someone off!:D

FL999 .. i share your pain mate .. cannot afford to go self sponsored ... coming from a country where not many opportunities lie .. will have to save up for a lifetime to go private .. and once again ...

" simple living , high thinking " - Mahatma Gandhi.

I still can survive on 500 AUD per month in melbourne, if I want to. If the time comes and i get selected to the CX CPP. I will be more than happy with what I get . Grab this once in a lifetime opportunity.

"And make hay with whatever sunshine is there in my life " - haha .. thats me.

Yet again I just turned 20 .. and i have a long way to go and nothing to tie me down.

Vaibhav Dattani
CX-CPP Wannabe
Cheers

CP2009 I see your point but my readings of 404 show a person that has taken the time and effort to show potential cadets different ways of looking at things instead of the constant rose tinted view. Perhaps he comes on here because I assume he has been in CX for a long time and knows how the company works and what to expect. Something the vast majority of others dont.

Most of the guys applying here have little to no experience of airliners or indeed CX. I would have thought that all points are to be considered as unfortunately the negatives have to be weighed out against the positives.

In regards to losing medicals etc true they happen in all airlines and all I was simply pointing out that this is an incredibly risky business to be in. This was in response to someone else saying that they were not prepared to gamble on the DESO route. What I was trying to put across perhaps not so well is that even getting into the course is no guarantee of a job.

The case for the posting by the likes of 404 are strengthened when people start saying they can happily live on 500 aud a month, where they dont mind about the no housing allowance etc and where they have clearly been led down the garden path and have based their maths off the wrong figures. We then also have the situation where people honestly believe they can plan their lives 5 years from now and can categorically say they will not get married (maybe you should have a word with my girlfriend :})

These types of posting lead one to believe people are being grossly naive in applying for this course. I dont know your personal situation but you seem intelligent enough to have taken everything on board, perhaps the posts were aimed at certain people who have to be told several times before they will learn? As to the perceived negativity perhaps that has to do with the broader industrial situation going on within the company at the moment? Reading the boards there seem to be many fires the company are trying to put out at the moment.

As for spending copious time here well thats what stanbys are for LOL. I've got nothing better to do. As to you affecting me well yes you are as your courses are being placed ahead of DESO's sitting in the hold pool waiting for a start date. I certainly dont feel any disdain towards yourself though, you are after all looking after yourself which is what I would do in the same situation. All I am trying to do is point out the negatives as I see them. As to the course well as a good friend said to me this stinks of massive short term thinking. Someones bonus is going to be looking very healthy this year. One day when you guys all get sick and tired of seeing the other expat SO's earning a lot more for the same job you might start to be bitter, and when eventually you start to look at leaving which you will eventually, then this is going to bite CX in the ass!

Question for vaibhab you say you are 20, have you actually been to HK? Have you seen how much things are over there? Whilst some things are cheaper the vast majority of food is more expensive. I also remember when I was 20 and getting by on a pittance, but in a few short years my needs changed massively. Statements such as I can survive on 500 AUD a month dont give you any credence. And please tone down the ass kissing mate, it makes you look desperate as does the wannabe cx monkier. Please just chill out mate.

FL999 its all well and good saying you have planned for the unforeseen but by definition you cant plan for that. I can tell you that last year I planned to be at CX and now Im not, now Im frantically trying to plan other things but life has a way of throwing curve balls at you. As to why this scheme was created I belive I answered that before, dont honestly think CX give a crap about you as you are a number plain and simple and as a number you represent a cost saving over hiring DESO thats a fact. Whilst this cost saving is great now when people start leaving in droves is when it will bite them. Look at recent past examples of companies acting in the short term for maximum profit but for a long term loss!

FL999 its all well and good saying you have planned for the unforeseen but by definition you cant plan for that. I can tell you that last year I planned to be at CX and now Im not, now Im frantically trying to plan other things but life has a way of throwing curve balls at you. As to why this scheme was created I belive I answered that before, dont honestly think CX give a crap about you as you are a number plain and simple and as a number you represent a cost saving over hiring DESO thats a fact. Whilst this cost saving is great now when people start leaving in droves is when it will bite them. Look at recent past examples of companies acting in the short term for maximum profit but for a long term loss!

Im not saying ive planned for everything that may or may not happen. Just that Id rather put all the chances on my side and take every opportunity that I can so that in the future I dont regret that I didnt take that road because some guy told me that I will most probably get married when im 25 and have kids which would basically make me go bankrupt with a divorce case. No offense mate but id rather stay positive. I am very well aware of the negative sides and I am in no case disputing the points put here by you and the others. Working as an SO for CX CANNOT be as bad as my current situation. Even if after 5 years I decide to leave and do something else the time spent doing that job will most certainly be better than doing the job im currently in. Ive got nothing to lose so to speak. ive also lived in Aus for a year and know what it is count your pennies. It cant be much worse than what ive already experienced. I appreciate your advice and concerns as well as the advice of the others but as I said, I can only go up from where I stand. Anyway, unless i actually get a call from darn CX all this jibber jabber is useless. ive applied in June btw and still havent heard from them. Got the 'geographical location ' bla bla when I tried to contact them. Im not holding my breath, life goes on for me but when (if) the opportunity shows up again I will take it.

Rhodes13,

Well Said!!! (only joking:ok:)

No seriously, that was a great reply and if you were one of the people here that wrote in a tone that was purely negative, at least I could see a reason because you are being by-passed by the likes of CPP.

But like you said, you aren't even looking at us negatively and I thank you for that. However I do fear - from the proof of posts previous- that there others who do have this alterior motive for such forceful views, and they are the ones I'd also like to hear from.

Earlier, you mentioned something about the court case against BPP (something I will read up on) but you mentioned about not having them pay for Medical and housing.

From Cos1, medical is paid for all officers and their dependants. Or am I completely wrong here. Surely medical fees are paid for or the risk would be far too high as someone could go bankcrupt if they needed an x-ray on even a broken wrist?

Statements such as I can survive on 500 AUD a month dont give you any credence

I used to live on less than that in Aus. THough that wasnt including rent which would increase that figure considerably. But for general expenses 500-600 is not too bad. Its just a matter of lifestyle.

Quote:
Summary: Realistic Monthly Table of Expenses for a family of four.

HK$ (/mth).....
Tax 5,700
Rent 16,000 (minimum 3 bedroom 1000 ft²)
Utils 4,700
Public Trans 1,000
Food 13,000
Misc 4,500
Total 44,900

now lets correct for a young single guy like me. So, lets say tax stays the same and rent reduces to about 12-14000 for a 2 bedroom. Utilities would also decrease id say by half or more, but ill keep it half, Public transport wouldnt be as much for one person i suppose, food would be divided by at least 3 + misc at say 2500. Thats a total of roughly 28,000. Lets round it off to 30,000. That means theres still bout 3,400 to spare from the FIRST year SO salary. I think that considering your studies and training have been paid in total and that you basically have no debt(correct me if im wrong, i dont know how the loan system works for the CPP) and have money left, i think its a fair deal. Until you get to JFO its fair I reckon. No dramas. Theres just one thing thats bothering me. Is that SO payscale corrected for training loan fees like for Etihad? If those 33,000 are scaled down even more THEN that might be a problem even for a single guy.

Nevertheless theres no doubt that the SO payscale would be a problem for people who already have families. CX has probably taken that into account. Maybe they actually want young guys with no strings attached or something, I dont really know. Maybe simply cheap labour. That one may backfire at some point though. it certainly will if the economy recovers and job openings increase. People will leave and then theyll have to review their practices. until then though, we just have to hang in there and not just let go. Who knows what the future has in store for us. things may get better and those who have jumped in will bear the fruits of their sacrifices while those who chose not to take the risk will find themselves drowning in regret. it may also go the other way but you gotta at least try. If you're young and single with no strings attached I dont know why you shouldnt give it a go:ok:

CP2009 I wont comment on the COS any further as you probably have it right in front of you but my understanding was the medical, schooling and housing were all benefits of the DESO package but I stand to be corrected. Like I said good on you and enjoy it pity its in ADL though :ok:

FL999 I dont know your personal circumstances but provided you go into this with your eyes wide open which you seem to be by doing the maths then I have no problems at all. What I was saying is that your finances have to considered very carefully and certain people saying I survive on 500 a month didnt give that credence, neither did the option of becoming a hermit for the first four years. Remember you work to live not live to work.

Otherwise I wish you well and hope they contact you. I had a good time at the interview and met a lot of nice people there. Maybe I'll see you there one day.

Enjoy

If you can live and eat like a local then all is good. Try living like an expat and you'll never save any money. 5 years down the road when you still can't pay the downpayment for an apartment larger than a shoebox is when reality will hit.

Without the housing allowance you will never be able to buy a property in HKG and it will be difficult to put retirement savings aside until captain.

To put it into perspective your career earnings as an expat CPP will be around HKD 18-22 million less as you have to pay for your own rental or mortgage.

Also the above living expenses don't take entertainment, clothing and travel into consideration.

A lot of the SO's have great rosters and most of them travel and explore the world.

Rhodes 13, I know it wont be easy. Its gonna be really tough actually. you've gotta start somewhere though. That opportunity is one of the only ones ive got kick-start my career. so ill have to make those sacrifices at first because for me, there is NO other way to get flying than a CPP.

Cheers mate, glad you've been called. Where have you reached in the selection? How was stage 1?

FL999, i am interested to hear why exactly there is "No other way to fly other than a CPP"

That is a load of :mad:.

If you really wanted to fly, you would find a way (like the other 99% of prospective airline pilots)

what a load of utter bs:ugh:. Do you think everyone lives in a country where you get paid 12 bucks an hour to work in a freakin mcdonalds or where manual labour or any kind of crappy job is well paid?! Do you even know what my situation is?! NO, so I suggest you shut the :mad: up. If I could I would. What may be a 'tough life' or having to 'work hard' for you guys is actually NOTHING compared to what other people have to go through in other parts of the world. Please do us a favour and keep you :mad: BS to yourself, thank you.

As a side note, do you know how much I earn?! Let me tell you how much I earn you smartass, If i convert to your Aussie Dollar I earn $1.2 an hour working 50 hour weeks and most of my pitiful salary goes into the bloody loan i took when I tried to get my PPL in Australia but couldnt because of unforeseen financial and personal circumstances. Now please spare us of your crap, thank you.

I have to agree (although using less strong words) with FL999. This type of thing is at the moment the only way to go for most people including myself. I simply cannot afford it and don't come from an affluent enough family in which i can get someone to help me out. Im trying everything in my disposal at the moment.

The people who say things like politically blonde (this isnt a personal attack btw) don't take into account personal circumstances. Il be honest, at the moment I don't have a job but even if I did to get to the level that this offers it would take me a hell of a lot of years as I would have living expenses etc to pay for myself.

It is impossible to get a loan to cover this from banks otherwise I would be flying with FTE (actually would be sat around waiting for a job but thats not the point!!!!!:hmm:) as I went for their interview and passed it. I also went for the CTC interview when they were still offering unsecured loans but failed and by the time they asked me to come back they stopped that. I also went for the GAPAN scholarship but wasn't successful, I even shelled out on a class 1 medical for the pleasure (£330+ isn't a small amount when u have no income!). Also applied for Etihad but was too late.

So getting round to it, saying that you would find a way is nonsense and it actually annoys me when people say that kind of stuff. Im not normally the type of person who rants about this type of post but felt like i had to say something after watching this thread develop.

now where's the bar. I'm mighty thirsty after all that typing!

CCP is an excellent opportunity to become an airline pilot, but there is a price to be paid. Most international cadets are foreigners, and are therefore expats but without the primary expat benefit of housing. Imagine living/working in a completely foreign environment, without the support of family and friends, but paid as a local. There will be no compensation for leaving home to work in HKG. Not only that, once you've join as a cadet, you are a cadet for life. It might not matter for the first few years, but as the enthusiasm passes you will have to accept that as an ex-cadet F/O you will earn less than an expat S/O; as an ex-cadet Captain you will earn less than an expat F/O. No matter how good it seems now to be able to fly big shiny jets, it is only human to compare and I can assure that one day you will too. If flying is something you've always wanted to do, then go for it! However, it would be wise to consider what you are sacrificing for this opportunity as although the points above might appear trivial now, they will be real once you are back in HKG.

If you are unable to work to pay for your flying, I doubt CX will want to hear a peep from you.CX is not doing this because they are generous, they are doing it because they want pilotsIm sure CX are smarter than you are. MUCH smarter. So a good pilot is a pilot who can afford flying? So if you live in a country with no GA and cant afford to go abroad to fly, you're not worthy enough to be a pilot. If that was the case there wouldnt be any airline and no pilots in and from my country. The utter stupidity or your statements is amazing.


Oh and FL999 it appears from some of your previous posts that you live in Aus, i dont see how you could legally be getting paid 1.2Aud per hour!!!Note the past tense twist of the word LIVED. Actually i did work hard to be able to pay for my first 27 hours I got there and the further 4 hours un-logged hours i got in a neighbouring country after having saved up my pennies. If thats what you're talking about? Just to prove that you shouldnt release all your crap without having your facts sorted out, thus the reason for my rant.

For now my money is going into repaying that loan i took to start flying, saving up if ever I need to go abroad for interviews and of course to actually live. All im saying is, not everyone lives in a country where there are more planes then people and where you can work hard and actually get paid what you deserve to be able to save up to fly part-time.

Well i am a flight instructor with 800 hours total time..I am living in Jordan and making may be a little lesser money then what Cathay is offering.
I want to be an airline pilot, I have a license but i am thinking of joining Cathay as a cadet pilot. I know that they will train me all over again in Australia and i will be making around 5000 USD if i am not wrong for over 4 years etc.Money is not an issue as I am single.
I applied when this scheme started and i got a reply from them that they can interview me in Hong Kong and i have to go there at my own expense.
My question is how long is it going to take? I am employed and i cannot take a long leave from my company ,also how much will it cost me etc..

Another question i am already trained so will this help me expedite the process in the academy in Australia?

I know that they will train me all over again in Australia and i will be making around 5000 USD if i am not wrong for over 4 years etcNot quite sure what you meant here but I hazard a guess that you mean you will make 5000USD per month on a year 4 SO salary right? If so then yes, thereabouts.

TGIG, I think you were looking a little too far ahead because a lot of these kids will come to their senses and leave if it ever got to a point where as a FO, they were on less than a DESO and if Captain, less than a DEFO. They wouldn't stay. You are right. It will definately get to you. It may take them 4 years as an SO and 2 years as a JFO before they can leave or have unfrozen their license but afterwards, they will leave.

I'm confident however that with ongoing talks, they will get a housing allowance to keep them sweet. Nothing like a DESO but an allowance all the same. Talks started a month back I believe.

I think though from what I have read that your target audience is wrong - in the sense that the meany respondees here will never get in.

The international cadets who are applying/have been accepted are ex-doctors, accountants, lawyers-to name a few professions. And these guys are looking at a pay decrease that will take more than 5 years to get up to their current salaries. I am confident with this sort of calibre, they have done more than enough research and fully understand the implications. I for one do support them and wish them luck.

There are things in the pipeline for getting allowances so I suggest the "holier-than-thou I don't need allowance to get my dream job fantasists" stop spouting as you aren't really helping!

I assume you put my name down by mistake?

Matt V, I am actually very confused by your post. Firstly I am the only one that has wished current cadets and future cadets all the best and have not gone down the line that some other senior members have by focusing purely on the negatives.

Secondly, I have been the first person to bring a potential positive here by saying that there may be an allowance in the very near future - which is not really any big secret here in CX. Therefore, those current SOs who are fighting for an allowance and those talking on their behalf do not really want to see prospective candidates fecking up this process when they haven't even got through to the course yet.

Thirdly, at what point did I say I wanted to fly with them and if I did, why would that be sad? I remarked that the cadets that have actually got in are ex doctors, accoutants, lawyers so I am assuming that they have already taken the negatives of living in Hong Kong into consideration. In short, I was further defending the scheme itself and the cadets who are actually on the scheme.

Anyway, I keep re-reading your post and looking at my posts to see where you could forge such an opinion and I just can not see it.

I think its about time we stick together instead of arguing like that. Nothing anyone could say will change the fact that some people need these kinds of programs to succeed. What betpump5 is saying is very encouraging and we should find ways to support those cadets who are fighting for our cause instead of being all negative and trying to dissuade people from applying. I have a feeling things will change with the economy and practices such as no housing allowance will eventually stop. Dont expect an expat allowance but anything would be appreciated. All the facts stated here are valid and should be considered but we should also stick together and help each other out. We're goign through tough times so its obvious things will be hard but being glass half empty wont help anyone.

Now, does anyone know Cathay's requirements concerning training loan repayments? Is a sum of money deducted from the SO Salary to accomodate for it and how many years will it take before you can leave Cathay after completing the course. Im asking because if Cathay decided to charge your for the training even while giving a housing allowance, it would make no difference at all. If you get your full SO salary in the first year itself, consider that you've just been trained for free so I wouldnt whinge too much about it. I dont know how it works so can anyone enlighten us on this?

it is my understanding that CX does not give training loans to cadets, as such ex-cadet S/Os are not required to repay any sum of money to the company. there is no bond period for ex-cadets either.

it is my understanding that CX does not give training loans to cadets, as such ex-cadet S/Os are not required to repay any sum of money to the company. there is no bond period for ex-cadets either.

If thats true, CX must be one of the most generous airlines out there. You're trained for free and can leave at any time. A small housing allowance would be the icing on the cake. I guess thats why you have to spend 4 years in the jumpseat. Its pretty fair I think. id rather do that than be on the right seat straight away with a massive loan and a contractual bond which is what most airlines do nowadays.

I guess thats why you have to spend 4 years in the jumpseat.

i would think ex-cadets start their CX career in the jumpseat because of their lack of jet experience, not necessarily because they used to be cadet pilots.

anyhow, i agree that the CX cadet program is one of the most generous programs in the world, at least training-wise. i cannot think of any other major airline where you would not be required to repay your training cost AND be allowed to leave when one wishes.

the reasons behind the cadet program appearing to be generous or the local pilot salary package being below par with the DE salary package is due to the background of the entire LEP/CEP setup. the CPP originated in 1988 as a type of community initiative that would allow aspiring local youngsters to become commercial pilots. as such, CX would not require a cadet to repay the costs accrued in his/her training. the cadet would also not be eligible for housing allowances and benefits that his/her expatriate counterparts were entitled to, due to the cadet being assumed to have ample family roots in HKG.

obviously, now that the situation has changed and international applicants are also being considered, i wouldn't be surprised to see changes to the cadet program itself, as well as the renumeration packages for cadets who graduate and join the company as S/Os.

I have been going through this whole forum for a long time and though I very clearly understand the differences between a DESO and a CEP. What I fail to understand is that, :ugh:

"Isnt it only for the first six years that you compulsorily stay in HKG...???" :suspect:

I mean, like CX offers a variety of base ports for F/O's and Captains, compared to other airlines. So, why not move on to a place like New York or Chicago, after being promoted to an F/O in 6yrs, if you feel the cost of living in HKG is too high...??? I mean, Can we not do that...??? ;)

How would you feel after 20yrs in CX sitting on the flight deck as Capt and the direct entry 3rd yr S/O gets paid more than you do? Actually you are the lowest paid pilot on the flight deck, and will always be unless flying with another CEP! One day as a training Capt you also will train guy/girls who get paid more than you. That makes perfect sense

What on earth does this mean...??? Is there really such a difference in the pay scale..??? Does a 3rd yr S/O really earn more than a 20 yr Capt...??? :eek: Or is it just that CX pays for housing for DE's and thus, they have more to spend while we pay for it ourselves...??? :ooh:

Replies Solicited... :ok:

I'll answer.

First of all, if you are indeed lucky enough to be promoted to an FO in 6 years (fair enough no reason why not), then that is day 1 of your name being put down on the waiting list. Current waiting lists start at around 7 years until you get your chosen base - especially like London for example. Maybe more now the retirement age has increased. Therefore, from Day 1 as an SO, you could be waiting a minimum of 10-12 years before you ever get to be based where you want. Not to be dissappointed-I'd prepare for 15 years.

In terms of actual salary, there is no difference. Pay scales are the same for ex-pats and locals. The payscales have already been presented by Titan404. The difference is that a DESO/DEFO is (was!) paid a housing allowance of 25K per month depending on seniority etc etc. So it is very likely that a JFO (LEP) in his/her first year would actually be on less than a Year 1 DESO collectively-and you will have 3 years seniority over him.

Now you can analyse this difference and this is what provides the two sides of every argument. What has the DESO done in order to get into CX? Perhaps paid for it all himself? Spent 2 years flight instructing? Then got himself a job flying turbo-pistons in Botswana? How much has it cost him and how much has he lost in those 3-5 years?

These are the two-sides as to the negatives/positives of the CXCPP.

Now Titan 404 has cleverly written the 2 differerences on Page 4 showing the difference between a 35 year career CPP and a 30 year career DESO. He took into account the 5 years it took for the pilot to become DESO and the cost of self-sponsoring. He calculated that the DESO is better off by AUD760'000 over a career lifespan. I'll confirm those rough figures for sure.

Now as someonw rightly wrote - are you prepared to gamble that AUD760K? Especially in this current climate? Because one thing is for sure, if you start training now (as many a UK wannabe has found) it will take far longer than 5 years to get to a DESO position. One could argue that in 2 years time (having self-sponsored) there will be GA jobs available. Again thats the gamble. Will you get into the DESO scheme? Will we have a DESO scheme when you want to apply? Infinite amount of questions where only YOU can deicde your route.

Take what is said here and make your own decision.

Thanks betpump,
That was informative. But all the more, it only rises a lot more questions in my ever-curious mind. I hope u don't mind answering.

i) After the initial six years of the contract, if we would like to continue working with CX and would have to renew or re-establish the whole contract, would we still be ineligible for housing allowances...??? Because, at that point in time, we would be joining CX as a first officer, which, I think is almost the same as a DEFO.

ii) Saying we work at CX for 6 years, isn't it most likely that we would have attained a number of type ratings, an ATPL and a number of hours in jet flying time, which is what many major airlines require for their F/O's, thereby giving us an easy chance of being hired by some other major airline...???

It isn't really a 6 year contract as the concept is illegal here in HK. You don't renew anything and you remain on the T&Cs that you sign. Yes throughout your career, you will not get the allowance (but it is being worked on!)

DEFO is the same as FO! Except for the housing allowance.

No. You will get one type rating on either the 343, 77W, 744. I doubt you will get moved about as a SO. Now an SO is not really recognised by airlines outside of Singapore, CX, KLM. Therefore after 4 years as an SO, regardless of how many hours you have (which still might not have reached 1500 to unfreeze the ATPL as you are only a relief crew) , you have not actually done any take-offs or landings! So you actually are pretty worthless at that point, even after 4 years. You get the experience as a JFO for 2 years.

So techincally speaking, this is CX's playing cards. A contract can not be enforced for 6 years, yet it is improbable that any airline will take you during those 6 years.

Again, this is something to keep in mind when making your decision.

As usual Titon 404 has produced the goods with his figures. Something else to throw into the mix for those prospective cadets doing their sums; consider that at the 6-7 year mark you have been a JFO for 1-2 years, have a free endorsement and are quite marketable. Have a look at some of the current Middle Eastern airlines FO requirements and you would find that you would be well qualified. Most of these airlines also pay a housing allowance and a salary relatively close to that offered at CX. If you go to these operators then you may find that the lost housing allowance as a CX cadet SO, as compared to a DESO, may be cancelled out by working for another company that offers a housing allowance for DEFOs. My advice is not to get too rapped up in this CX career thing: it is a dying beast. After a few years as an FO at CX you will have a marketable skill, go and find the highest bidders.

Thanks Betpump,

Have sent you a PM. Would be glad if you replied.

Regards,
SL

Loiter,

again, another positive of the scheme. You can always leave! (after 2 years JFO). Although if you read the Middle-East forum, it isn't really a great place to be.

Not quite right about the housing. A 3rd year SO will get anywhere from HK$50-67,000 housing a month depending on when they last had a review or joined the scheme and on what terms. It fluctuates but is around there at the moment for those about to start a 3rd year as an SO. This is paid directly into a mortgage loan or paid as rent to a landlord. This is why people are saying a 3rd year SO gets as much as a Cadet captain as add that to a 3rd year SO pay and it is about HK$100,000 a month. Not quite true as a cadet captain gets a managers bonus and a lot bigger salary and more for hourly pay and overtime etc. I would guess that a local captain is a few thousand ahead each month.

Those who are saying, wouldn't it upset you that after working for CX for 15 years and getting to the left seat that a 3rd year SO makes as much, are being a bit short sighted. I expect this could be the end of the housing allowance as they are getting enough keen hopefuls to keep a steady stream of cheaper pilots joining the company. Why pay housing when they dont have to.

I had a mate once who we called Sloppy Seconds. Its not you is it! Joking.

I digress.

They do need to pay housing allowance and the contingency for this will always have been in the game plan when the CPP was opened to the internationals. 6th Year cadets (2nd year JFOs) will leave in their masses - regardless if DESOs are no longer being recruited and thus removing the arument of 'unfairness'.

The housing allowance for cadets will never reach the heights you are talking about (obviously) or the scheme would not actually be a long-term cost saver for the company. But an allowance will have been worked into the plan and talks will progress to find out exactly how much CX are prepared to give. It wont be much of course but will be more than enough to keep all sides happy. Especially as the cadets knew full well that they were to expect nothing.

Guys,

The housing allowance for cadets will never reach the heights you are talking about

Are there discussions about housing allowances being given to cadets...??? Is it probable in the near future...??? If yes, What is the approximate maximum amount that a cadet can expect as housing allowance...???

SL:confused:

Discussions yes.

No comment/no idea (depending on who you talk to) for your other questions.

I want to stress though that this is a rumour network. So whilst there are talks going on which is no big secret, anything brought to pprune is just something someone heard someone say the other day over a round of golf. Take the advice that Titan 404 and others have brought to the forum and base your decision on having NO housing allowance - that way you have prepared for the worst.

That was good. Thanks.

SL

LOLL anyways I don't have $70k AUD to get a CPL, it would take me like 3-4 years to save up and I'd have to give up uni......and this cadet scheme is the fastest/cheapest way possible to become a pilot! There are so many aviation schools out there and uni courses to do......but I spose I just need to work harder and FIND A WAY!

I want this SO much and saving up for housing is easier in comparison to training/hours/licences!

anyways, I am overwhelmed at how money is so important, and this dream isn't going to be possible if I don't get into the cadet programme because I don't have enough. I could slowly get a private licence and fly for leisure -.- but it isn't the same. We should be happy that this opportunity is available to us, my dad keeps saying in his days, nooooo way would this be possible for a young person to be paid to be trained and become a pilot.

as you can see I'm pretty confused about what's going to happen and how I'm going to get there......*sigh*

itsroxc

I was actually in the very same position back in 1986. I couldn’t afford the AUD$30,000.00 that it cost then to get my CPL. I solved it by getting a full time job, going to Uni three nights a weak and learning to fly on Saturdays paid for with my own savings. It took me five years to get my degree and four years to get my CPL with no debt at the end.

Everything is possible in this world. Sometimes though you just need to think outside the box and not be in such a rush.

respect for you 404 titan.very inspiring.:ok:

Hi all,

I'm giving serious consideration to the CX cadet scheme, so this thread is most useful. I'm also looking for some general advice about becoming a pilot.

First of all, a quick introduction: I'm British, 25 years old, unmarried (but with g/f who works(!)), have a maths degree and maths & physics A levels. I'm a westerner, so probably never going to speak Cantonese (or Mandarin). Last year I spent six months in Hong Kong, and I'm in Hong Kong right now (my g/f also lives here). So I understand the cost of living here, and have a good feel for the culture (both local and expat). I have no flying experience, but it has always interested me as a career.

My thoughts on Hong Kong Vs "The West" and on previous posts here, are as follows:
- Tax. Noone has mentioned tax?! You do know that it is capped at 16% in HK and in many cases you can pay A LOT less than that (generous reductions for kids and spouse). If I earned £100k/year (note 1GBP =~ 1.65USD) in the UK (like a doctor, say) I would pay 50% of it to the taxman and in other stealth taxes. How about Germany? Even worse! France? Worse. Italy? Worse. Scandanavia? Worse. There doesn't seem to be an easy way to reduce your tax burden as a pilot, because you're simply an employee (even a doctor could start his own practice and streamline tax that way). There is also ZERO investment tax in HK, unlike the capital gains tax you are subjected to in the UK (and most of Europe).
- Cost of Living. It strikes me that 2 things are expensive here: rent/property and alcohol (and ok, western food in restaurants, but that's damn expensive in the UK too). Again, rent in London is just as expensive as HK. But hey, I'm British; if I go work for BA or Virgin I'm not going to get a housing allowance right? They're not going to pay my mortgage on a nice London penthouse? So after my 50% tax, I shall also pay my own substantial rent or mortgage.
Aside from the two things mentioned, HK is way cheaper than UK/Europe. Hop in a taxi, £3 (vs £15 in UK). Boat to Macau £10 (costs more than that to go to Isle of Wight!), boat across the harbour (20 PENCE!) and local food is cheap. And no it's not disgusting. In Britain, an average (at best) meal may set you back £30-50 each. Also, on the subject of rent: you're not a banker, therefore you don't need to be living near Central (the business district in HK), and as you get out into the New Territories you get *much* more for your money.
- Training cost. First of all, can someone please give me a realistic figure for how much it costs to train yourself up to commercial level from scratch? The figures seem to vary a lot. I'll use 100k GBP for now, but that may be too much?
It seems noone has factored in servicing the interest on your loan, assuming Mummy & Daddy aren't stumping up £100k for your training. Also noone has mentioned how difficult it is to get a loan at the moment! Obviously, you can save too. But can you save up £100k as a 20-something year old? Well, I've had a good go at it, and have around £50k (minus 8k for student loan). I count myself as an outlier here, I really don't know many other 25 year olds (that went to university) that are +42k in the black without some sort of hefty inheritance. We'll ignore successful entrepreneurs and lottery winners, as they are unlikely to suddenly want to become pilots. I also completely disagree with the attitude that if you have some money (saved or not), then you should be willing to spend it all on "realising your dream", and without even a job-guarantee at the end. It's like saying to a sprinter - "he takes steroids, so you should too. Or obviously he wants it more than you". No, he's just stupider than you! Steroids damage your health and excessive debt destroys lives (or entire economies as it now seems). It's layman's logic in my opinion.


So as you can see I tend to lean to the positive on this cadetship. Yes, it makes sense for Cathay, but it also makes sense for the debt-averse individual, and also the inexperienced (you're building up your flying time whilst getting paid for it). What I would like to hear, is what you guys out there would do in my position? And also on any opinions on working for Cathay Vs other airlines? CX are obviously confident that you will enjoy working for them, if their goal is for every cadet to reach Captaincy with them. I'm also very interested in hearing from current cadets or current applicants.

It's time for big decisions - so any guidance is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. :)

P.S. currently work in I.T. but crave something more hands on, and with more human interaction.
P.P.S. I know American tax laws re: expats are more complicated, but sorry guys - your tax rules there just plain suck :uhoh:

I was actually in the very same position back in 1986. I couldn’t afford the AUD$30,000.00 that it cost then to get my CPL. I solved it by getting a full time job, going to Uni three nights a weak and learning to fly on Saturdays paid for with my own savings. It took me five years to get my degree and four years to get my CPL with no debt at the end.

Everything is possible in this world. Sometimes though you just need to think outside the box and not be in such a rush.

I wouldnt mind going that way at all. Thing is theres no GA let alone any flying school where I live. :(

hker

I think you should look back at my posts. I highlighted all the main costs of HK including tax. Tax is certainly one of the pro’s for coming here even if you are a US citizen with their world wide tax. Mind you they pay no US tax if they earn less than about US$80,000.00.

My budget for rent was based on the New Territories not HK Island which is easily double what I quoted. While you may pay similar rents in London, what you get per ft² is about half what you would get in London. So per ft² HK is close to double.

Alcohol is actually cheap if you buy it at the supermarket and drink it at home. If you are like me whole is only a social drinker it hardly figures into a monthly budget.

No one has said local HK food is disgusting. Most of us love it. The point is over a long period of time here I have never seen an expat that eats local food on a regular basis. If you have grown up in the West you will, I can guarantee you be drawn back to a Western diet no matter how hard you try just as Chinese in London or Sydney are drawn to a Chinese diet.

Of course BA or VA aren’t going to pay your rent or mortgage. You’re from the UK. It’s the same as me not expecting QF to pay my rent or mortgage in Australia. Again the point is that most expats move overseas to get ahead of where they would be if they had stayed home. You take that incentive away and most will leave. In other words you lumber on them easily the largest financial burden of living here, the financial incentive of uprooting your family and coming here evaporates.

I find it interesting you bring up bankers and housing. For the record most bankers in HK even now with the slump in the world economy would have a housing allowance twice that of the average CX pilot. Most expats will be drawn to live in areas that other expats live. They include HK Island, Discovery Bay, Tung Chung, South Lantau etc. It is no different to the Chinese who live in London or Sydney. There tends to be a large concentration of them in certain areas. The longer you live here the more likely you will eventually live in one of the expat enclaves.

FL999

I realise not everyone would be in the same position I was in. My reply was really directed at “itsroxc” who lives in Sydney but can be just as applicable to someone that lives in N America, UK or Europe. I lived in Sydney too when I was in his position.

Before someone says that the UK and Europe are prohibitively expensive to learn to fly, who says you have to learn there. The US$ is in the toilet at the moment, particularly against the Euro and Florida is only a 9-12 hour flight away. Save up and do your licence all at once there. Again one needs to think outside the box.

Thanks for your reply 404. With regards to bankers, I was just thinking along the lines of higher numbers of those guys living in midlevels, where you really don't get much for your money.

I reread this whole thread this afternoon, and I think part of the problem is the world is changing and this industry is changing with it (as is every other industry). As a young Brit now, I'm really not thinking along the lines of "it's a pretty big inconvenience for me to leave Britain, there better be a nice sweetener in it for me", I'm actually thinking "what has Britain got to offer me now? apart from a legacy of debt which my generation and the generations coming up behind me will pay for (as if taxes weren't high enough already!)". I think if I were twenty years older, contemplating this in the late 1980s, I wouldn't have thought like that. I would have perhaps thought "why would I want to go to Asia? America or UK is the place to be". I know that I'm not the only young graduate from the UK to think along these lines, more and more are considering opportunities elsewhere. IMO, young people see themselves much more as "world citizens" than they did 20-30 years ago.

My thought process takes in factors such as rising oil prices, imminent inflation of USD (further spiking oil price), rising green taxes, western airlines that are borderline bankrupt, finite supply of oil, oil supply somewhat at the mercy of Russia & the middle east, etc. etc. And these are the risks that you have to weigh up with the £100k+ outlay of your own money with no job guarantee - in a world where over the next 50 years, flight volumes could easily start decreasing. On the other hand you have cadet scheme with "free" training and guaranteed job with a highly respected firm, which is more financially sound than most, in a region of the world that is more financially sound than most. Quite frankly, if I pay for my own training and take the 5 years+ to build up the flight hours - I have absolutely no way of telling that these generous housing allowance packages for expats will even still exist (not for new employees at least). A lot can change in five years; take a look at the last 18 months!

With regard to the wife and kids - I would have thought most candidates for a cadetship don't have either yet (or at least no kids yet). And yes, it's very important not to be short sighted - most people do want a family at some point, although I find it surprising that Cathay would ask a question on this in an interview - how would they deal with homosexual applicants for example? how would they deal with the guy that shows no interest in having kids? Would they take a dim view of that, in your opinion?). Presumably if the candidate has no kids on entry, but has kids later, they will have known nothing but Hong Kong, and will therefore not expect a large garden, or object to sharing rooms for a while, etc. etc.). Even the household dynamic has changed dramatically in the last 20 - 30 years; how many wives have a full time career now Vs 30 years ago?)

A rising supply of westerners, a better grasp of English amongst Asians, and and a less-rosy picture in the west only points to one thing for me, and that's a reduction in expat remuneration.

404, I find your CV impressive. A realtor in Hong Kong and a past Bairstow Eves Estate Agent with a knowledge of the 32 Boroughs of London and the average sqft of most houses there.

404, I have always shared your concerns about the fantasists (fanatics???), especially as the issue of a housing allowance (or lack of one) is a delicate subject, and the talks to get at least a semblance of one is something that is being worked on - so we certainly don't want clowns coming here saying they can live on fish and rice whilst living in a cockroach infested bed-sit on top of a massage parlour during their SO days!

However there is one thing that you have repeatedly failed to answer and that is do you seriously expect any cadet in this current climate (or any climate) to self finance their traning and hope that things go so well (including us opening up DESO again) that one day, they'll be able to apply at CX again and suceed? - when they have the opportunity via the CPP.

Your calculation of a AUD$760K difference in a lifetime salary between CPP vs DESO is correct. But you could make that AUD$7.6million and I think you will still find no one prepared to gamble.

Your abundance of advice, facts and figures (75% of which have been twisted to conveniently back up your point) have been noted and appreciated. But as these pages go into double figures, many will see your animosity towards the programme shine through which will actually have a negative effect to what you had hoped to bring here to the wannabe forum.

betpump5

No I don’t. I have certainly made a lot of people sit up though and think more deeply about it as at last count I had 83 pm’s from people asking me questions. (I’m sorry if I haven’t PM’ed everyone back. I will try and get to you in the next few days). There are many positive things for the International CPP as well. They are obvious though and don’t need explaining by me. All I have provided is raw information for hopefuls to use in a proper bucket list i.e. the pro’s & cons. I certainly haven’t twisted anything to back my point as I my personal position on the International CPP is actually a positive one.

I got my first job in aviation during one of Australia’s worst recessions since the Great Depression. It was certainly much worse than today’s one by a long shot with unemployment at 10.9% and interests rates at 17%. Economies though always recover. If one thinks like the herd and curls up in a ball when they are in a perfect position to take advantage of a downturn, they will never get a head. Whether that is by the International CPP or self funding their licence will be entirely up to them. All I have done is provide information to help them make that decision.

PS: I wish my knowledge of real estate was considerably better. My answer though was based on looking at real estate web sights in the UK and the London area.

hker
A rising supply of westerners, a better grasp of English amongst Asians, and and a less-rosy picture in the west only points to one thing for me, and that's a reduction in expat remuneration.
History and in particular recent history would indicate quite the opposite. Apart from the last 12 months expat remuneration in HK and the rest of Asia has been increasing. This economic cycle is no different to all the others of the past 150 years. Some will be deeper than others but they are all the same with a recovery at the end.

Just as there was a huge world wide shortage of experienced pilots before this downturn, their will be an even bigger shortage after it is over. The number of pilots being trained worldwide has been decreasing over the last twenty years while the demand has gone through the roof. This downturn has only made it worse. The International CPP is CX’s insurance if you like for when, and it is only a matter of when the upturn happens.

Lastly when I here people say:

I'm actually thinking "what has Britain got to offer me now?

I think of one of JFK’s famous quotes:

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.

After all it is because of your country that you are probably in the position you are in to think about becoming an expat. You have a lot to thank your country for even with its mountain of debt which you have probably contributed to anyway.

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.

haha, I was thinking of this exact quote as I typed my post :) You're quite right, I have loads to thanks Britain for. My standard of education was excellent (and free), and I've also received top notch healthcare for free.

I certainly don't think Brits are going to revert to living in caves and throwing rocks at each other, whilst China booms its way to gold-paved streets (after all, the Asian economies are largely dependent on western consumerism). But I do think the legendary investor Jim Rogers puts it nicely:
If you were smart in 1800 you moved to London. If you were smart in 1900 you moved to New York. If you're smart in 2009, you move to Asia.

Although this may apply more to investors and business tycoons than it does to career professionals.

Anyway, I degress. Thanks for all the advice 404; it has certainly given me another viewpoint and will help me discuss the issue more convincingly should I be lucky enough to get to the interview(s) stage. I'm certainly not one to the rock the boat if I was working for CX - believe me, if a 60k housing allowance was offered to me, I'd take it in a heartbeat! And I'm glad to hear that discussions regarding the issue of expat cadets and the 6th year "potential exodus" are in progress, or at least pending.

I was actually in the very same position back in 1986. I couldn’t afford the AUD$30,000.00 that it cost then to get my CPL. I solved it by getting a full time job, going to Uni three nights a weak and learning to fly on Saturdays paid for with my own savings. It took me five years to get my degree and four years to get my CPL with no debt at the end.

Everything is possible in this world. Sometimes though you just need to think outside the box and not be in such a rush.

That really puts things into perspective. I mean, anything you really really want takes time and effort and if you really wanted it you wouldn't give up, which is what you did, and what I'll do. Patience! :)

If CX doesn't accept me-which is highly likely due to the competition BUT I'm still trying my best. If they don't accept me though I'm seriously going to need answers and advice on what they want or think I should improve on.

I think I'll continue uni full time- I don't have that many hours anyways, keep working as much as I can and get some steady hours every week. And if that doesn't work out I'll graduate by the time I'm 24, and work/get a license on the side.

my initial interview is tmr :S quite scared but it will be ok, cadet or not I'm going to be a pilot!

now....back to studyinggg or trying to! haha

hey itsroxc ,

all the very best for your interview tomorrow . .. my best regards for the outcome,cheers ..

just one request , after you finish your interview can you summarize of briefly what was asked at the personal interview and how was the written component and what all it involved .. it will help many who have applied and waiting a call ..

thanks a lot
vaibhav
CX CPP wannabe ..

well I went for the interview and was pretty nervous. I think I'm lacking experience and confidence, and something really unique that they will want me for. So for those who still have interviews, just be yourself and be confident and really research some more about why you want to do it, less idn's, be straightforward, don't make a lame joke haha, and be enthusiastic :)

The competition is so high, I hope everyone that got to stage 2 or 3 or are/have done this programme are very happy. It would just be so amazing if I could start earlier since I've already spent 2 years in another field....

But considering my circumstances (costs etc), I'm going to continue uni and then get a private licence during the next few years and see how I go. Either way, I will still want to fly whenever I can!

Goodluck to everyone else, and this has been a great experience and I know that I have much more to work on....if only I could work on that while they take me on board. But some things just don't work out just yet, but I want it alot so in time, it will happen.

I just came across this thread and it seems to have fizzled out. This has been an informative read and I am sure others will come across this later too, so I just want to throw in my 2 cents.

As a local HKer and aspiring cadet, I have to agree with betpump5 and 404 Titan. Housing allowance WILL make a huge difference. 40k a month in Hong Kong is really not that bad, especially considering end of year bonuses normally take care of taxes. BUT, the cost of living here is a bit weird in that the fixed portion of cost of living (mainly rent) is by far larger than the marginal portion (food, entertainment). I say this with experience living and studying in Canada, the States and the UK. In those places, living it up as a student can exceed your rent. In Hong Kong, the reverse is definitely true. So why is housing allowance a big deal? Because, the marginal value to your standard of living from 20k can mean the difference between not starving and living very comfortably. To put this into perspective, a live in maid's salary is 3k, i.e. you can hire about 7 maids with your housing allowance. At the same time, 20k is what it costs to rent a decent pad in downtown Kowloon. Basically, housing allowance IS going to matter.

Some people have said it won't bother them that people of lower seniority will get paid more. It may not now, but it will when you get here. Hong Kong is an extremely competitive society. Status is everywhere, but no one talks about it. For example, Hong Kong ranks number 1 in wealth gap. Google 'Hong Kong cage home' if you want to know more. Comparing yourself to others will become second nature within a year or two of moving here.

As a local HKer, I would urge any international looking into the CPP to live in Hong Kong for a few months, or at least visit before deciding whether the CPP is 'worth it'. Hong Kong may seem really 'western', and parts of it is, but the culture and economics of Hong Kong is also very different from Europe, America or wherever you're from.

very well said etlien...

as somebody who has lived in HK for many years at some point in my life, I agree completely with the post...

this is not to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a foreigner to live in HK....but for international cadets thinking about applying, think very carefully about 1.)living in HK and 2.)having someone more junior in rank getting paid more...

I can see why, as an applicant, people would simply say "yes its fine, I can manage, I can cope..."...especially given the prospect of being a Cathay pilot...however, just remember that living in a foreign country away from your family and friends is not for everyone and that at some point in your career you WILL find it unreasonable that someone who does the same job as you get extra allowances...

Again, I am not discouraging international applicants - I just feel it is important for ppl to acknowledge this before making the decision to apply to CX.

All the best.

A lot has been made about how a cadet would feel if a DESO in the future was hired thus meaning that with an allowance, they could eventually be paid more money than a cadet who may be 1 or 2 ranks ahead of the DESO. This was a fair point and definately a concept that would form a strong basis for any talks for CPP cadets to get a form of allowance.

Now this is just a rumour that I have heard recently therefore I won't ask the likes of Titan to corroborate this as if it is true, goes much higher than the both of us.

The rumour is that DESO is finsihed and looking at the facts addressed in many current threads, does look like a rational argument. I will elaborate and say that the DESO "ex-pat package" is finshed. The CP batches first started of with 1 course a year made up of not more than 10 cadets.

By December, 6 CP groups will be at FTA and apart from the CP36, all future batches will be made up of 16 cadets.CP 35 reached this amount and CP37 onwards will have this figure. With a CP group every other month would mean that you have just shy of 100 cadets per year graduating in the future. This roughly equates to just over 6% of the workforce. This 6% turnover in pilots leaving/retiring etc is a pretty standard figure for an airline like CX.

It is this simple maths that has shown that a DESO is no longer needed - the pilots and the package we give them. CCP/FTA have a pretty efficient scheme going and the financial analysts for the company are pretty good at predicting future pilot demand. Barring some mircale where overnight there is a surge in air travel by some ridiculous percent, then CPP will cover our needs for a very long time and be an extremely cost effective solution for the company- even if some form of housing allowance is finally surrendered to CPP pilots.

Like I said, this is just a rumour. I have constructed the post as to why I believe the rumuor is true. Naturally I expect others to form counter arguments as to why the rumour is untrue but the simple truth is that why would you have a highly expensive DESO package when CPP meets the demands and can be flexed whenever needed.

Further to this, International cadets and Instructors for that matter will NOT be getting an expat allowance, there is no such contract, It may have been "mentioned" as part of the deal but it simply is not written down anywhere and is in the TBD tray which simply means it will not be given as it was a verbal contract! :eek:

SMOC is corect and for those a little confused by the term instructor, a small deal was done some time back because CX were taking FTA instructors. Therefore, a "Short" and "Long" course was developed.

The Short course are for those with a fATPL. CX paid for the FI rating and those cadets must remain at FTA for 3 years Fight Instructing. Once again however, their conract does not specify a definate job with CX and there is nothing in writtting confirming that upon joining CX, they will get the ex-pat allowance. The same goes for the long course which is a 4 year course. CX pays for the fATPL (just like the normal CPP) and then they pay for the FI and stay at FTA for 3 years flight instructing.

The "extra 3 years seniority" again means nothing.

Cadets WILL NOT get a housing allowance. And those of you who think you will are dreaming. That is the whole reason Cathay is pushing the CPP programme - so they don't have to pay housing allowances and other expat benefits.

People need to realise that if they do the CPP scheme, they will spend the vast majority of their salary on housing alone. They are not going to become wealthy, live a nice lifestyle...

Cathay may give the impression that they may give an allowance, but its just to lure more people in. They will never pay one to cadets, so just accept that you will have to cover housing yourself and thus make a realistic calculation of whether or not you can afford to do this.

Making such a huge decision based on something that will never happen is a big mistake.

BBfly,

if this is indeed true- there will be alot of unhappy/irate ex cadets in a few years. It will be interesting to see what happens. Knowing Cathay and their immense planning thus far- some sort of plan has been developed and i'm sure an allowance will be madeto keep the pilots from being lured offshore.

All the best to applicants!

"there will be alot of unhappy/irate ex cadets in a few years"

How can they be irate if they have never been promised (in writing) a housing allowance or other benefits?

Like with any job, if something is not specifically mentioned in your contract, you cannot assume entitlement to it.

I agree, best of luck to the applicants, they should just remember that they have not been promised (in writing) these benefits, and to make the move to an extremely expensive city with the assumption that they will get benefits that are not in their contract is a dangerous thing.

However many of the applicants seem to accept they will not get the housing allowance but still believe it is worth it, so all the best to them. Go in with fully open eyes.

I have applied for the Cadet Program

happy guy,

Have a good look at where those apartments are located. Also do some research on other costs of living in HK. Try the forums on asiaxpat.com, geoexpat.com, hkexpats.com and any others you can find on a google search.

Can't wait to hear what Mrs happyguy99 makes of living in a $5k-$10k apartment in HK with around $15k - $20k a month left over for fun. After a few years of that she'll soon be Mrs unhappyguy99IwantaDivorce.

Why not come and have 4 weeks hols (sometime between November and March would be good) with $31K and see what kind of life you could expect.

$31000 per month, after tax (16%) you are left with $26000 per month.
you should be able to find an apartment 750-900sq/' 8000-10000 per month, add utilities, phone, t.v. which come to approx $2000 per month, you are left with say $14000. Subtract monthly food bill, 4000-5000 (2 people)and you have approx $9000. Subtract a little more for your monthly bus/MTR expenses, depends on where you live...

Budget for travel home, every now and then adds to the bill.

A big night out on the town or eating out will cost a bit though. Say $400-500 for two at an average restaurant. A boozey night $1000-2000 easy. Or the 7-11 drinking option at LKF, can reduce your alcohol bill.

So you will have a little cash to spare, not much, but enough to go to thailand for a few days on your days off with or without the Mrs. If you have kids at a school age (3yrs in HKG) then you will not have enough money. If you can get the Mrs working, that will be the only way for you to get ahead here. No housing in HKG makes it hard, but people do it, ask our CEPs. So you will be able to get by, but there wont be any savings and without your partner working it will be tight.

Hard to imagine, I lived on a lot less before. If you want a jet rating and can live without housing for say 5-6 years, then you can have a job where you can do a little travel, get a rating and move on to other things if it doesnt suit you.

Hey everyone thanks for the info, it is as I expected. Tight on a SO income, but can easily live a conservative life. Sounds like you can have a reasonably nice time so long as you're are careful. And the salary will increase over time. I'm sure i'll get into Cathay, and I'm in it for the long haul. Cheers.

Hey guys, ive got my interview for the CPP is a couple of days time. Just wondering if its possible for an SO to commute? I realise that if you're on a standby roster you'd need to be in HK for that roster, but if you've got staff travel and a set roster, then could it be an option?

NZ787, commuting as an SO is an option.

Hi all CX Wannabes (or Dontwannabe)

I'm trying to figure out a precise point without success until now...

I know that the P2X license hours (SO) can't be loggued if you leave CX before promoting to FO. But from the time you've an unfrozen ATPL and FO grade are you starting from scratch again ? Are the SO hours totally virtual once FO ?

Thanks for your explanations...

Hello there,

I was wondering if anybody from India has got a call yet. I'm well past the 8 weeks mark and no response yet. I tried clicking on the link in my email to check the status and it still says my application is in process. Is it normal for it to be in process for so long?

Has anybody appeared from India in the recent past?

Regards,
MKS

waiting for a reply for the past 4 months............
no reply yet........
br
stone

I submitted my application about 2 weeks ago. Does anyone have any idea when the next round of tests/interviews in HKG will start?

Oh. So I'm thinking no news is good news. So I'm guessing I'm off to building some more hours till they call. Thanks guys. :ok:

MKS

Hey guyz, I just wanted to know if anyone knows when the next batch is goin to start, i just submitted my application online. also MIKE_KILO_SIERRA, ur the only Indian I have come across here.. can u please tell me how the entry process is? also right now i have 200hrs with a PPL, will tht be an advantage for me???

Wow... Just a few months and this has turn into a fight between the experience and the cadet pilot wannabe...

Anyway, Just to balance the view point a little bit.

First of all, I don't want to get shot by "404Titan" as I think he have made some very good point, although a little bit on the extreme case. I agree with "404Titan" that with a single S/O salary on CEP (cadet / local terms), you will find it very difficult to feed a family of 3 or 4, especially if your wife does not work. However, for most cadets applicants, I don't think this is the case.

First let's ask ourselves a few realistic questions:
How many cadets applicants have a family right now?
How many of them are even married now?
How many of them have kids now?
How many of them are even dating now?
How many of them are old than 25 now?
I am sure most of you will get a sense of my questions. I am emphasizing NOW... No matter, what everyone tells you, your life NOW matter as much as your life down the road... who knows... many of you might work at CX and become F/O and move on and get a job at some other airlines... Some might stay until they retired... some might even quit flying after a while... No one can make a decision and tell me what they will or will not do OR what will or will not happen in their career or their life for that matter... everything is a calculated risk and balance... you can reject CX cadetship NOW, and you might end up not going anywhere in aviation? This could potentially happen and it has happened to many many many pilots in the world... or you can reject the cadetship NOW and have a very successful aviation career... who knows? The thing is, no one knows... and hence, that's why I want to emphasize NOW... I understand others concern to plan ahead and look at their career in a LONG term point of view... but how LONG can you look ahead if you do not have a job NOW and you are a pilot wanna be? I understand that being a cadet on local CEP contract, you will have a HKD7 million dollar income shortfall according to "404Titan" calculation, based on two pilots starting their career at 30 years of age... his calculation is valid up to a certain point, however, he did not consider higher income at a lower age and how that will impact your retirement fund value and package? Even a 5 years difference in your career at CX, a cadet CEP retirement funds based on an average 5 to 10% return can be up to 30% to 50% more than what you will get if you join as an DESO 5 years later than a cadet... I am sure "404Titan" can understand that and can work that one out, I couldn't be bother to build a spread sheets to explain it... So take that into account, your long term benefits from your cadet employment vs DESO, taking into account of your retirement funds (assuming both pilot invest in the same portfolio of funds), the disparity between the two pilot will not be as great as suggested... Just another very important thing to think about, for those who are interested in looking at the in the LONG term...

Anyway, back to NOW... and back to all my previous questions... considering most cadets applicants are usually single less than 25 years old... so it is more than reasonable to assume that they will be able to live with their S/O salary in HK. Many local CEP has been doing that for years (many of them don't have family in HK either, as their family has moved overseas years ago, so most CEP do pay rent with their salary). So it is definitely doable.

However, I am not going to completely count out other arguements where you will eventually get a family and have kids etc. But realistically, by the time you do that, you will probably an F/O or in the worse case situation, you will be at the year 3 or 4 S/O position. So your salary should be a lot higher than when you first started... Also, expenses in HK really depends on what type of life style you are aiming for and looking for in HK, especially when you are a young S/O? (This apply if you are older as well)... People really need to go ask themselves, are you going to live the full expat (banker and lawyer) life styles while you are in HK? To be honest, if you do want to live the full expat life style, even a F/O salary with full housing will not be enough... so many expat in HK makes 3 to 4 times CX captain salary... CX pilot is just small potatoes in the grand scheme of things... So if you are to hang out with investment banker or big shot lawyer and hang out with super models while you live in Hong Kong and go have a HKD120 dollar beer at a roof top bar or open a HKD3000 to 5000 dollar bottle of champagne... Eat at Mortons Steak House (which I personally think it is not that good) or Peking Duck at Peking Garden or Roast Goose at Yung Kee or any SoHo resturant every time you go out for dinner and spend anything from HKD300 to 1000 dollar per head? If you are to do that, than even if you are on CX expat package, you will not have enough money to go around as an S/O or F/O for that matter. (Just ask many young DESO and you will know).

Alternatively, you can go to Wanchai and hang out with all the 20-30 years old local and westerner and get a HKD20 dollar beer / drinks at Devils with your Standard Charter Notes or regular alcoholic drinks at HKD50-60... And go eat at one of the many good local restaurant or overseas chain... For Steak, you can go to Mr. Steak for a HKD80 steak... For Pizza, you can go to California Pizza Kitchen or Pizza Hut for a HKD80 to 100 dollar pizza... For your regular american food, you can go to Dan Ryans or Rugby Tuesday... Or if you prefer to go even cheaper... you can try any hot food join at any Wet Market or go to any local BBQ meat resturant or any local Dai Pai Dong or Cha Chun Tang and get a wanton noodels or get a cheap meal for less than HKD30...

As for shopping for food at home... you can do what most expat do... and go to City Super or 360s where a single medium size potatoes can cost you HKD20, and steak at the cheapest will cost you at HKD100 per 100g and goes up to HKD350 per 100g, fish are all imported and cost a fortune at these luxury super market, and other CAN food and seasoning are all the imported where it cost at least 3 to 4 time more than you would at a local supermarket... BUT alternatively, you can go to the wet market or a local super market chain and get fresh meat and fresh veggies and fruits for a fraction of the cost of what you will pay at Discovery Bay Super Market or any City Super or 360s stores...

As for your utilities... In HK, they are among the cheapest in the world... Internet will cost you max of HKD150 a month (not transfer limits)... if you want CableTV (which you will), if you get it with your Internet and Telephone from the same company... you can porbably get a package for all 3 (Internet, TV and Telephone) for less than HKD500 or 600 a month... Electricity, will cost you average of HKD600-700 a month... plus a few hundred for water every 3 months... Also you will need to get a mobile phone, which is a must in HK, that will usually cost you HKD100 / month...

So everything sound cheap so far... what will cost you the most in HK? It is rent as it has been mention to death on this thread... however, lets look realistically at this again for a moment... where do you want to live? Once again, do you want to live the expat life styles and live right at Central or Mid-Levels? Where a studio flat can cost you HKD12,000 to HKD15,000 a month rent... I know some local CEP S/O who do that... and they still managed to survive no problem but they will have a tighter budget than others... or you can live in many other places in HK, like Tsing Yi, Mongkok, Lai Chi Kok, Diamond Hill, Kowloon City, Kowloon Bay... all of these places are within 20 to 30mins metro (MTR) ride into central and these places will cost you half as much as it will cost you in Central and Mid-Levels... where the same studio flat will now cost you HKD6000 to HKD8000 (For those who is going to doubt me, I just check on centerline properties at a place in Mongkok / Sum Shui Po... a brand new development call "One New York", this is the current market rental price)...

So what does all of this means to someone from overseas and looking into applying for the cadet program? There are many options... things are not necessary as grim as shown in many reply in this thread... At the end of the day, the decision is your own... both side of the argument has some very valid points and many of these points shown in all of these threads... but at the end of the day, it all depends on how you look at it!

Final note... of course we all want expat package... and the local CEP as well as expat will continue to fight for the betterment of our package... for locals, it will be some form of housing assistance from the company... but who knows... we should think about NOW... it is too hard to think about the FUTURE and guess what will or will not happen... Make your decision based on what you know NOW...

Good luck everyone on your application!

[PS: Sorry for all the typos and grammatical error, I am too lazy to re-read and re-adjust everything... I am sure you will all understand what I am trying to say here.]

WOW...

WOWPeter,

Thanks a lot for your insight and valuable information, this gives me an idea of how the lifestyle in HK is, as u said I am just 20 so i don't have any commitments at the moment , the only thing in my mind right now is to join Cathay and fly, SO if you live a simple life , there is no need to worry about the money and savings, a little control now will help u a great deal in the future, so if u can save now , u can spend later,
Thanks once again for ur precious insights,

Just a curious question though, are you with CX rite now?coz if u r then i would appreciate if u could giv me tips on how to go about the entry and wat r the tests like?
Regards,
RAhul

RAHul... PM me if you want...

just curious why would you wanna use ur name on forum for:rolleyes:

anyone got any reply from cx, regarding stage1...i got email from them begining of december saying they have recieved my application and will advise when assesments will be conducted etc etc....after that no reply...its been literally more then 4 weeks

Dont worry about it PA28R, I waited 13 weeks before hearing anything

Hey PA28R, well i didnt really get any good username while loggin in , and so my name was the 1st that came in my mind,thats all, hehehe,

Wowpeter, Not dating? You young guys go staight to phuck budies these days? Half your luck. In my day you had to at least buy the young lass a drink.

@<hidden>: If you have 200hrs, why don't you test for the CPL in India itself? Having the hours might/might not work in your favour. I would suggest, wait for CX to reply. I've been waiting for more than two months, yet to hear anything. So I'm managing about 10hrs every month and getting ready for CX if/when they call.

While you wait, apply for CPL exams and get the Indian license. There's nothing to lose.

MKS

Hey MKS,
I really appreciate your concern, I am in the process of giving my DGCA exams, am preparing for the RT exam due in Mumbai next month also the Jan attempt which will hopefully be around the same time if not earlier.
Well I definitely think it might work in my favor as having experience will be an added advantage, CX do want applicants who are really passionate and have the ability for flying, also my 200hrs of flying experience also includes 60+ hours of solo of which 50 are cross country so I don't think that having only a PPL+IR license would make them think I'm a slow learner or something of that sort.
But yes I am not just waiting for a reply from them although now the CX CPP has become my No.1 priority now I'm also working towards getting my DGCA exams out of the way.

So I'm managing about 10hrs every month and getting ready for CX if/when they call.
Also may I ask are you doing your complete training from India itself? Which school and how many hours have you completed till now? All the best to you and safe flying.
Regards,
Rahul Pereira

@<hidden>: Yes I'm training from India. That's the only way I can keep my day job that funds my flying. I've clocked 25hrs till now. Currently I'm at Yash Air, but in the process of shifting to the Bombay Flying Club at Dhule. Good to hear that you are appearing for the exams. Wish you all the best.

@<hidden>: I just went through your page. Very informative, thanks for sharing. Does give people like us hope.

MKS

hey i had my first interview roughly a week before christmas, I was told i would be notified within a week and 3 weeks later im still yet to hear back.

I assume ive been unsuccessful in this instance

Anyone from australia heard back if they were accepted or rejected yet?

CaptainCourageous , I'm in the same boat as you - interviews in Melbourne just before x-mas, was expecting an answer within a week and still nothing. Having said that, CX no 1 mentioned in another thread (here's a link (http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour-wannabes/378978-cathay-pacific-cadet-pilot-programme-7.html#post5424352)) that he also interviewed in Melbourne and hasn't heard back. He called CX recruitment who advised they'll have answers by the end of next week.

I'm expecting the worst but hoping for the best.

wowpeter
I don't want to get shot by "404Titan" as I think he have made some very good point, although a little bit on the extreme case.
Apart from my interview question which was deliberately extreme to make people think, the living expenses are accurate. Remember expats tend to eat the foods they were brought up on and live in accommodation that resembles what they would live in at home. I love Asian food but couldn’t eat it all the time. I assume you are a local cadet therefore you were probably raised here. If this is the case your expectations are vastly different to that of an expat because this is your home. Try living in Dubai on EK’s package less housing and you will see where I am coming from.

How many cadets applicants have a family right now? Not many.
How many will eventually have a family? Most.
How many of them are even married now? Not many.
How many of them will get married? Most.
How many of them have kids now? Not Many.
How many of them will eventually have kids? Most.How many of them are even dating now? Probably most.
How many of them are old than 25 now? Not many but hopefully all will eventually be.

The point I am making is you may think that only considering the “NOW” is the smart thing for these wannabes to consider but all it is doing is asking them to stick their heads in the sand. You and I know that most pilots at CX both direct entry and cadets are or will get married and have kids during their career here. Most will have done this within the first five years.
I understand that being a cadet on local CEP contract, you will have a HKD7 million dollar income shortfall according to "404Titan" calculation, based on two pilots starting their career at 30 years of age... his calculation is valid up to a certain point, however, he did not consider higher income at a lower age and how that will impact your retirement fund value and package?
Actually I did assume the higher income on earnings but if you want to look at the Provident fund we can do that. Assuming no capital gain (because after all you could make a capital loss), the last five years contributions would amount to HK$1,928,353.00 assuming 10% contributions from the employee and 15.5% from the company. This is still well short of the extra income earned from housing assistance as a direct entry pilot of HK$7,065,780.00 which was also calculated based on no capital gain. Remember most direct entry pilots use the housing as a supplement to the provident fund because of its history of poor returns for those that have joined the company since 1997, i.e. defined contributions rather than defined benefits.

All decisions in life regardless of age should be based on weighing up the pro’s & con’s. To tell someone to do otherwise is irresponsible and extremely short sighted.

hey i had my first interview roughly a week before christmas, I was told i would be notified within a week and 3 weeks later im still yet to hear back.

No news = good news. It would take just seconds to send you a rejection, yet it does take a much longer time to process your application if you did pass. Don't give up hope!

I applied back in June, but have not heard from them, so I tried to go and update the old one, but they cannot accept one as mine is still being processed!? I know they just had the interviews in Canada at the time I applied, but I should be able to go and update my hours and licenses as a lot have happend in half a year. Should I go and make a new application?

Heard back a couple of weeks back and was successful in gettting to the second round. Heading over to HKG this coming week. Done a lot of prep but still not entirely sure what to expect. Any tips from those who have been through the process or those “in the know”?

On average How many flights do you have per month? And when you return to base, how many days off do you get in between flights?

any idea when is the next round of hiring in canada ?

jaysolo,

roughly, you will have 3 flights per month (there and back) with 4-7 days off in between each flight. These "off days" are a mix of rostered days-off and standby days. But the roster is usually good and you lucky sandwich eating SOs should have standby days in one group so you have at least 2-3 days off in one go to swanny off to Bangkok for some Ladyboy treatment. Oh the life of an SO!

For those international cadet who attented the intial stage (JKI booklet) interview was there a english listening and grammer test?

In the initial stage there was no specific english component (only JKI, interview and psychometric test).

No doubt in the interview they will be assessing your skills as an english speaker to a certain degree.

Whats the average wait between the management interview/leaving hong kong and actually finding out if you are successful? (i.e. making it through to flight grading)

I was told 1 week and its pushing into the third week now.

thank you for the info buddy :)

Hi Titan404,
Do you know if once you have been checked to line as SO, would you then be entitled to all other benefits ie health, schooling and accom??

If you could let me know that would be great!! :confused:

hello all
I can't update my profil in the cadet career section and the SO career section is not working too.
do some of you experience the same thing ?
thanks

Hi,

Any International cadet applicants going for the Cathay Pacific 2nd stage interview this end of May2010 ?
Please PM me so we can exchange info. for the interview..
Besides,anybody who just went for the 2nd and 3rd stage CX interview, please share some useful info. and the rundown about the interview.
Thanks a lot and have a good weekend.:)Cheers!

I'm heading to Cathay for my Stage 2-3 soon. Does someone know the updated starting salary and benefits (MPF, education allowance for children, etc.) for international cadets? Hope to hear from guys who have just finished training in FTA.

Hi guys. First post for me though have been a pprune reader for a while.

I have been offered a cadetship but am still not sure i want to take it. Am at the bottom of the ga ladder but am confident in my ability to move up soon. Am just not sure on spending the next six years of my life as an so. I love to fly and by the reports on here it doesnt sound like so's actually get to fly that much. If there are any actual Cathay so's could they post (or even pm me) their experiences and as to whether they enjoy their role?

Also does anyone have a copy of the current pay rises (if any) that we will see over the next 6ish years?

And finally could any tell me if we accept on the current contract do we receive any increases in salary/allowances that they will offer cadets in the future?

Sorry if these questions have already been answered somewhere else!

Thanks Icarus