Air Asia? Very strange!

[555orange]

Air Asia, hiring non typed FO's into Capt's positions?

Do you really think this is wise? How do you reasonably interview a candidate since they cannot fly your sim and cannot answer airbus questions? I recently was shocked when 2 friends of mine interviewed there. One was a 320 FO I used to work with years ago at another company...was rejected and my other friend, a 747 FO was hired.

This seems quite open to obvious risks to me.

What is going on there?

[The Dominican]

This seems quite open to obvious risks to me.


Why? All the captains being assigned the A-380 and the B-787 aren't typed on the airplanes and have no time in type, If an individual passes his or her training and gets properly typed on the A/C and then goes through the OJT process and gets certified on the line by company RTC's that have determined that he/her is ready for command, What's the problem? perhaps this individual that got hired from the 747 did better and demonstrated better judgment and airmanship during the interview, just because you have time in type doesn't mean the interview process is just a formality, you still have to impress the salty old dogs in the back. I don't get why you find that strange

[a345xxx]

Strange? No. You must be very new to aviation or are you just trying stir sh@t?

[slayerdude]

Strange? Been going on since day one in AK..... the fo's are experince guys with at least 5000hrs under their belt..... in any airline in the world one would qualify for command on any type... including a initial wide body command with those type of hours.... so..... nothing strange... all ops normal....

[bila]

:(
Air Asia? Very strange!


What is so very strange of the interview process? :rolleyes:

Dominican / a345 XXX

Fully agree with your comments. Well said! :ok:

Pretty sure the boys at AA and AAX presently know what they are doing. Well qualified airlines chaps.

Happy Flying!
Bila

[555orange]

Haha...always stirring the pot...but in good faith and comradship.... I love a good debate.

Hey, im an advocate of paying what people are worth. Then you will get what you need and in the end the cost will probably be the same. Dont undercut....because if you cut corners your asking for trouble and you will pay in another way. The only reason for doing it this way is to undercut the pilots pay. Hey...im all for those great drivers from the Big Boeing fleet that get this break, but there is a bigger issue here.

Its not that im not open minded gents.

I think its strange because I don't see anyone else doing it.

Isn't it obvious that to be good at flying a specific airplane it takes a bit of time? Look... we all know Companies try to train in the shortest possible time and at the lowest possible cost. Or are you saying that piloting is not about skill at all? Then I suppose then there is valid reason why the salaries are coming down. If you can cross train guys this easily into a Command position, then why do we all argue against ab initio? You guys that are counterpointing me... you can't say at some point you held up your experience "ON TYPE" with value. Hey..the same argument plays here. Capt must be able to handle every instance with and expert hand that only comes from EXPERIENCE. Im not saying its not possible, I know Capts cross train in house... but that to me is a bit different. First, you know what your working with. You don't when all you've done is a sim eval and whatever else. We all know what sims are like,,, you can have 10 good days, and 1 bad day. Thats reality.
I would be interested to know how AA does "evaluate". You say maybe the boeing guy displayed better judgement. Hmm....did you use a boeing sim? How did the Boeing pilot show his skill? Easy to display "commandship" when your not loaded up.

About foolishness: If they do it right and spend extra money on it then it can work. But we all know that AA isnt going to do that. I mean come on....its a low-cost. This is all to try and lower the pay bar. They can' get enough Capts applying because the pay is too low, so lets try and cut a corner. "I can see the young overconfident managers...."we can do it".

Management: What questions do you think are going to come up if you hae a problem? Who will be accountable for it? What do you think will happen to Air Asia's insurance policy and rep? Nobody discuss these things in the meetings eh? Accidents happen...but if happens because of a reason... look out. Your ass is in a sling now and it cost you the same the end.

Guys, just pay what Captains are worth and then you will get enough applicants to fill your slots. Stop undercutting.. and cutting corners. Your only asking for trouble. Pay what FO's are worth and then give them a year and upgrade them.

AA .. know what they are doing? I don't think so. A clear lack of decision making skill and wisdom.

[ThrustClimb]

Hi 555orange,

I trully agree with you, because I had the same experience as your friend.
I really have no idea on what they are looking for and what their standard up to...Strange.

[a345xxx]

Definitely young or maybe just new but with time your views and perspective to aviation will take on a more matured look. Enjoy your flying and keep clocking those sectors and hours.

safe flying always.

[handsome one]

u didn't kiss AA bosses a@@ enough thats why u didn't get the job

[Duh]

All of you guys are missing the biggest point here, WHY don't they have enough qualified FO's to train into Captains positions? Then hire young qualified FO's into the right seat and continue the process in perpetuity?
Wouldn't they save time and money with someone who is familiar with the little things, the non-important stuff like: 1-Routes 2-Company procedures 3-etc etc etc
It might even affect Morale. :ugh:

[malaysiacadet]

I don't find that strange at all.....
let's put the Airbus / Boeing shiiT aside..

at the end of the day, it's not who has more experience on type .... i believe the most important factor is who can make better judgement and decision.... you're the captain, your decision will affect the safety of the aircraft.......

I'm sure a 320 guy with 5000hours knows the plane inside-out, but if he makes **** decision and get himself into deeper ****, will you take him in base on the fact that he has 5000 hours on the bus?

some guys walked into the door thinking he has 5000 hours and knows everything bout flying.... Sadly, that may not be the case.....
___________________________________________________________

P.S. FYI, people do get DROPPED in AirAsia....

[rdr]

effective & mature command is not a type rating.

its a state of mind evolved over the years

[The Dominican]

effective & mature command is not a type rating.

its a state of mind evolved over the years

Bravo, someone gets it. The concept of not being able to determine a pilots ability in a sim because they are not very familiar with the automation shows inexperience and naivete. In my entire career I have never interviewed in a sim of an airplane that I have flown before, I've been in the majors marry go round three times before in the US (and once more here in Japan) back in the 90's I interviewed with a major in a 727 sim, then in 2000 again interviewed with a major in a A300 sim and here in Japan in the 767 sim and I hadn't flown any of those types at that point, Individuals that conduct these interviews have a lot of experience training and evaluating crews and they are looking a lot more than just what button to push.

Here at AJX only about a third (maybe less) of the pilots have had previous experience on the 767 and I have to say that I haven't encountered anyone that I would feel apprehension in putting my family in the back of their airplane.

[555orange]

LOL. You guys make it sound like being a Capt is akin to Mahat Ghandi. "State of mind"??? Give me a break. We are managers, we are trained to make the decisions we make. Just like any other profession. We are not that special my friend, but we do have a skill, and your right its developed over time. However, we are all in the same boat.

Dominican, the only person not getting it is you my man. But thanks for bringing us up to speed on your incredible experience and wisdom. Lack of familiarity with automation on another AC type=naivity? How so? Whoh...i just don't get that comment.

Your arrogance aside, I've been around this industry awhile too just to let you politely know.... and I think we have all "interviewed" on many different aircraft. You my friend are not an exception.

The point is, one day you do an interview on a 737 and don't get the job, next month you do a interview on an A320 and get the job. Does it mean that you were not good one month and great the next? No, it just means that everyones performance in the sim and especially in non familiar types is entirely dynamic. You cannot reasonalby asses a person on a non type effectively in a single event because in almost every instance, especially when the instance is not "controlled", there is no way to know the result with any consistent effectiveness. This is pure science and logic and fact my friend. So basically your just gambling. However, if you know throw an individual into something he and you are both familiar with, then you can establish a firm basis of comparison between candidates, and truely test his knowlege and skills. And if all your candidate have similar experience..then you can see who the stars are. And so it goes. Dominican...its simple logic my friend!

If you take an Airbus guy and a 747 guy and assess on a 747 sim.... how do you asses the airbus guy? Just give him a visual circuit? What then have you really assessed? Almost nothing. Gee...lets see if he makes the right decision to extend the downwind to compensate for his altitude. YEP...HE's CAPT MATERIAL! LOL... Total bollocks. But the 747 guy who is familiar, will be able to show you more easily his weaknesses since you are both familiar. Both in knowlege and flying.

This is the general point.

Need I again bring up the obvious risks to the company... talking insurance costs etc etc and all the obvious stuff... if you hire a direct entry capt from an aircraft he was not familiar with and he prange an airpane? If an investigation ensues and it ends up being YOUR policy and your oversight, then what next?

Be safe...hire like type pilots into like typed airplane if your hiring for command. If your going to spend some time with the candidate as an FO to first to get up to speed, then great...there is no danger. And non to the airline or your rep either. You covered all the bases. There are LOTS of airbus guys out there.... pay what pilots are worth and they will come. Especially the experienced ones you need. This is purely a case of cutting corners. End of story.

[a345xxx]

555orange, i am sorry if you have not been selected for your command but its not the fault of the DEC who joined with a B727 rating. your posts seem to show a little immaturity and i hope its because you are young.

take it easy and keep flying and behaving professionally in the end you will get it and even then its not the end of the game, continously keep looking inward to look for your own shortcomings and it will make you a better person.

safe flying.

[555orange]

Hi Singapore.
I only bring up some very good discussion and some valid points.
I can on surmise by your defense and personal attack that you benifit in some way from AA cutting it's corners.

Maturity and age? Nothing to do with my post ... But hey, I suppose you have a right to throw **** at me if you don't like my points. I would say your tone does say a bit about you and yours.

I am neutral in all this, and I have mine already. That includes command. I am purely bringing up what seems to me a danger area, as a result of an attemt to cut corners.

I will say it again. Pay what pilots are worth, or at least be competitive... And you not only will get what you need, but benefit in many other ways. You will get a higher caliber and the obvious benifits of that.

I have no stake in this matter. Nor do o ever wand to move fro
where I sit to a LCC. But if you need a job, it will do I suppose.

Good luck.

[555orange]

btw... no offense to anyone. My pure desire in this thread is to try to incite a debate and to voice my general opinion. I wanted to see what if any solidarity there is out there for protecting pilot salaries, and if anyone else sees what I see in AA. If you believe in it.... speak out.

Good luck to all. And congrats to those that were able to make the transition to LHS from another Aircraft. To overcome the differences and do the command at a LLC must be difficult. Especially when probably the FO's at AA are probably lower on the experience demographic. If I were a flight crew manager, I would not allow it, but that is me. I would want to protect my own ass and reputation.

Have a look:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/393248-jon-stewart-sullenberger-pilots-wages.html

[a345xxx]

If you don't like the truth don't shoot the messenger. :)

[555orange]

Very dignified response 345. Where is the truth? I bring some valid points to light and you call me immature? Can you please explain? Can you even bring a single good counter to what I have said, instead of personal attacks?

What AA is doing is unique in the industry. CCQ Airbus/Boeing is done in house with known employees, but not with brand new ones. You don't know what your getting after a simple interview.

I tend to be conservative and safe. Is this not the better course of action? Pay a bit more and get a known quantity. Don't cut corners.

[555orange]

Curious... Does AA pay for the ratings, and what is an AA 320 Capt Salary? It should not be less than 8 or 9k usd... That would be a min and what I would guess. Im sure being a LCC that the working conditions are not the best. But a good opportunity for anyone to get dir LHS from the RHS without spending some time in a company first. Lot of demand for 320 Capts around...and pay pretty good at that! But the working conditions will always be not great.

I still think that its amazing that they are doing this!

[CRJ9000]

Any one have any idea how the interview is on Air Asia? Please help many thanks.DEC?

[babotika]

There aren't many FOs to upgrade in the company because many are tempted by the insane salaries in the sand pit and bugger off before they have enough time to switch seats. The guys who stay do get command eventually but there aren't enough to meet the growth demands.

Captains take home about USD7000 which considering the cost of living is a very good salary. The TR is paid for by the company but there's a bond.

As to hiring non-typed FOs into the left seat I really don't see what the big deal is. Airmanship and command potential have nothing to do with how many hours someone has on type, the sim check isn't looking at knowledge of the aircraft or handling as much as it is management of the flight deck.

They've stopped hiring non-typed FOs into the left seat now anyway, you either need the rating or previous command elsewhere.

S.

[a345xxx]

The truth I am referring to is..

1) Almost all all if not all growing airlines will have to hire DEC's.
2) Command is a maturity issue not just a skills issue... a very famous quote I hold close to my heart made by a retiring Chief Pilot..."what is smart may not be wise and what is wise may not be smart"
3) There is no relevance to your current rating when you are being sim checked for a job. All experienced employers know how to asses your command ability regardless if you are type rated or not. Your familiarization with the particular AC you are being checked on is not as important as your CRM,maturity and command decision making ability.
4) A lot of airline will rather hire DEC's at the expense of their own FO's as it is considered cheaper by the bean counters and they bring in immediate experience.
Whether I believe in the above items are irrelevant as it is the reality of the industry.This is the message/truth/reality that I refer to. Don't hate/shoot/kill the messenger if you don't like the message/truth/reality.

Safe Flying.

[a345xxx]

555 ...

Personal attacks...I don't think so.

Your Immaturity/Inexperience...You have not proven otherwise.

CCQ is cross crew qualification... only applicable to Airbuses not Boeings and only if recognized by the airline and local authority.

Hiring Boeing pilots to fly Airbuses and vice versa... is not only an AK practice. SQ, QR, EK and countless other airlines do it.

You are not erring on conservatism, you are falling back on your inexperience.

Safe Flying.

PS Please stop referring to Air Asia as AA....is AK. AA i believe is American Airlines. This was highlighted in a a much earlier thread.

[acegreaser]

a345xxx,

I think 555orange is referring to the fact that AK gives a non rated A320 FO being given a command position. All the airlines which you mentioned i.e SQ, EK, QR and EY gives rating on their aeroplanes to guys who are already Captains. I must agree with 555, that I haven't heard about any airline giving a 737 rated F0 a DEC position in their airline.

I could be wrong...please correct me.

I am also just using 555's 1st post in this thread, cos the rest of his response was to counter all the other rebuttals made which wasn't relevant to his 1st post.

If we are talking about a non-rated Capt being given a DEC position, then it's a different argument altogether.

Peace bro.....

safe flying always

[555orange]

Hi Guys.

Yep, I'm referring to AA (Air Asia) hiring non typed FO's into Captains seats. Ie: A 737 FO who has never flown an Airbus to a A320 Capt position based on an interview. and purely on his total flight time.

I argue that total time is not enough. 345 thinks that it is.

I argue that AA(Air Asia) cannot reasonably do a sim eval on a non type rated guy if they are using 320 sims. (Yes yes..other carriers do steam driven raw data... but then their not hiring DECs from a pool of non typed FO's!). 345 argues that you can.

I argue that you cannot reasonably tell if a candidate is suitable to be a captain when you just looking at total time, and whatever they do for interview. (not sure what they do for interview but if anyone knows...please jump in). 345 argues that you can.

Further, I make other points:

1. I belive its adding risk. A non type going DEC 320 increased your chance initially to have an incident, and vs/vs Bus-Boeing. Lets be clear: I am not talking about pilots that already work for the company... I know that is done all the time. We are talking about a 737 FO DEC 320 on the first interview. And it seems Air Asia agrees with me since previous post states they have stopped this practice.

2. There is a growth period moving from conventional to Airbus. More so in my opinion than vs/vs because we all initially trian from conventional. I dont believe its wise to combine this growth period with a Command from FO from another company and another type. I believe the better way is to hire FO's and give them 1 year and then upgrade. Limit your risks.

3. I believe that this is purely a effort by Air Asia cut a corner and pay Captains less than other companies. If they payed market or more for a Captain they would get Captains and everyone would benefit. What they are doing is just driving salaries down. Great for those 737/747 drivers that can get a quick command though off the backs of the rest of us.

4. Hey.. Babotika: My opinion: I believe that you cannot asess command in a sim interview. Are you familiar with Air Aisa? How long is the sim eval per candidate and how many candidates are evaluated each day? I will say again, sim flying is entirely dynamic. You will do a stellar job 9/10 times, and one day do a not so good job. You cannot exclude judgement from this. It would be foolish to decide command potential from a single sim event. History is the best and safest indicator.

For these points, 345 called me young and immature! Im so upset now. :)
Safe flying to you 345. Lets have some discussion with out throwing mindless #### please.

btw: My bad on CCQ... I meant a type change. IE boeing to bus. Sorry about using "AA"... but I won't use the other acronyms because others may not know them.

Babotika, any idea why Air Asia decided to stop doing it?

[a345xxx]

555 your main argument is that AK is giving an unrated FO a command. If the AK evaluators and higher management believe they are good enough even if they are not rated who are you to say otherwise?

Your only argument against the practice is because your friend an FO on the 320 was not offered a command slot. Now were you there during the eval session? If the evaluation found the other guy competent its no diss to your friend..maybe he had a bad day, maybe there were other considerations. Maybe the other guys were really good? Have you considered all of this?

BTW you seem to be the only one that seems to have a problem with this process and also with using the correct code..AK

Safe flying.

[etops777]

JetStar Asia out of Singapore has hired 2 FO's without prior command experience as a Captain- that is DEC. 1 came from Qatar and 1 from EVA.

[cloudsurfing]

Does anyone have the contact details for AK recruitment? If not, know someone who would be able to give good info on these positions. I will be in KL next month and wouldn't mind having a chat, or speaking to the office there.

Appreciate if anyone has the time to send a PM.
Thanks.:ok:

[555orange]

Quite right 777. I am in no position to say otherwise. Just stuck on a layover and reaquianting with pprune since I brought my laptop and nothing better to do this time. Thought this was something unique an interesting debate. I'm also guilty for **** disturbing. But the fun (freedom) is coming to an end and I have to head home soon.

[aryakethan]

hi im fresh cpl holder from canada looking to work with air asia ,
i just want to know what r the requiremnets for low timer to apply and any other requirements.
i would be happy if u reply regarding this

[modeselectorignition]

Hi
You need an ATPL for employment but right now I believe they have stopped recruiting foreigners (F/O). The evaluation is done in a more structured and systematic way nowadays. If you are rated on the A320, then you would be asked on A320 stuff and also whatever deemed appropriate. A guy from EK, QR, EY, SQ would be asked on their current company SOP etc. Mind you, the new recruitment management team has got all the sources (updated manuals from these companies). They do their homework and tailors the questions based on your level of experience, company and type of aircraft you fly. Well, no one can answer all questions 100% correctly but they will know what kind of pilot/person you are if you cannot answer YOUR current company SOP. So, it is not necessary that an Airbus guy can pass or make it. Just like your sim check ride every 6 months, if you screw up on that day, you cannot fall back and say, "Hey, I have 10000 hours on the BUS, its just today I can't perform, must be the sim visual, not good!" Too bad, that is the way we pilots have to live with. No second chance... especially in the aircraft. Real aircraft!

[a345xxx]

you would think from some people's posts the recruitment team at AK knows peanuts! thanks for the info. hopefully this will set a few things straight.

[doayon]

Any one who has applied for DEC position got any answer??thank you

[manflex69]

Just curious, how much " the airlines " pay for commander A 320.
Cause we here ( some local airline in Indonesia which operates Airbus ), only receive around $ 3000/ month, TAKE HOME PAY....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!