Embarrasing Saffers!

[Cave Troll]

To the crew of ZS-PSB inbound to FCPP today. You gave the ATC hassles about speaking french to a french pilot. You seem to be under the impression that Congo is a english speaking country. Congo abides by ASECNA rules i.e. they can speak french on the radio. As far as I know they are not members of ICAO and are not required to speak english on the radio. They do that as a courtesy to you {and I} as we are english speaking GUESTS in their country. Remember that, when you are flying around the lowveld having a chat in Afrikaans to your mates in Nelspruit tower. You are an embarrassment to all us South Africans working in West Africa and to Naturelink. Try and act a bit more like the professionals you are supposed to be!

ct

[Capetonian]

I'm probably missing something here in which case I have no doubt someone will jump down my throat to tell me, but I thought that English was the language of ATC, regardless of who was talking to whom and where.

An American aircraft captain waiting for clearance in Frankfurt overheard the following:
Lufthansa (in German): "Ground, what is our start clearance time?"
Ground (in English): "If you want an answer you must speak in English."
Lufthansa (in German): "I am a German, flying a German registered aircraft, for a German airline, in Germany. Why must I speak English?"
Ground (in English) : Because English is the offical language of civil aviation.
Unknown voice from another plane (in a British accent): " And because you lost the bloody war ......"

[Bealzebub]

According to the ICAO, Congo is a contracting state. (http://www.icao.int/cgi/statesDB4.pl?en)

ATC may communicate in the regional language where that is appropriate, but must also be able to communicate in English on request and where required.

Annexes 1 and 10. Annex 10 specifies that the language to be used in radiotelephony
communications shall be the language normally used by the station on the ground or the English
language. Annex 10 also requires that the English language shall be available, on request from any
aircraft station, at all stations on the ground serving designated airports and routes used by international
air services. Annex 1 specifies the level of language proficiency that should be demonstrated by flight
crew, air traffic controllers and aeronautical station operators in international operations (ICAO
Operational Level 4).

[Jetjock330]

Capetonian,

In France, CDG, they use French to Air France/French operators and English to everyone else , and in the Spanish airspace, they speak Spanish. In Canada, they speak French in the Quebec/Montreal area, where ICAO has offices too.

In Russia, they speak Russian and English, so in short, there are a few ICAO languages, but english is a base language, but is not the only lanuage allowed to be spoken on the RT, legally.

There are now 6 official (http://www.pprune.org/www.icao.int/icao/en/assembl/a35/wp/wp208_en.pdf) ICAO languages: English, French, Spanish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese.

I am sure the ATC in CDG would have a wonderful reponse to ZS-PSB had he been in France. In fact I think he would still be in the hold days later....:}

[DA-10mm]

exactly...
they're probably not ICAO for a reason.
safety and competence come to mind, amongst a myriad of other proclivital reasons.

[Jetjock330]

Also, check the very last line (very last line indeed) on the ICAO document (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/download.htm) for the languages that ICAO publishes all of its publications.

Just glad I don't get my ATC clearance in Chinese in Beijing!:}

[126,7]

Cave Troll

I was not there and didn't hear what the crew said to the atco, but what I do know is that one language only on the radio does wonders for situational awarenes and increases safety exponentially. I can understand why they would want the radio to be in English. That crew has probably flown a few hours in Africa and has seen and survived a few hairy incidents and therefore just does not want to trust the African atco blindly.

You can go back and forth about the Icao and Asecna rules and regulations, you can also argue the pros and cons of different languages on the radio, and while you do that, take a minute and look at the incident where the English pilot lost his life in Paris a few years ago because they didn't "understand" when another aircraft was cleared for take off in French while they were taxiing onto the runway.....

Read more here. (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000525-1)

Note the following sentence.
Contributory factors include:
The use of two languages for radio communications, which meant that the Shorts crew were not conscious that the MD 83 was going to take off.

[Cave Troll]

126,7 you have a very valid point and I could not agree more. One language is essential for safety etc. However my issue is how these guys addressed the situation. Instead of just asking the ATC to speak english to clear thing up {which these ATC's are happy to do} they attempted to make a fool of him by replying to him in afrikaans. Extremely unprofessional, hogging the radio and they ended up sounding like idiots as they solved nothing and proved even less. It would be great if we all spoke one language on the radio but that is just not the reality we face flying in Africa.

ct

[Der absolute Hammer]

I suppose that if the Boers had moved up to the what is now Congo when they left the Cape in the 1820s & 30s on the Great Trek, an exodus which they undertook in order to perpetuate slavery, then Afrikaans might be a language recognised by ICAO as being spoken on the ground in the Kongo. If so, then it might have been acceptable to use that tongue on the airwaves. On the other hand, had they moved that far up the dark continent, they might themselves have been sold in to slavery by the Portugese, who ruled the Congo and who did not start to abolish slavery in central Africa until 1839.
The effects on South African economic and aeronautical development, had all the Boers themseves been enslaved is hard to imagine but a little interesting to speculate upon.

[maxrated]

Interesting thread this, I also heard SAA crew giving Luanda ATC a hard time the other day, much to the embarresment of all the other Saffers on the frequency.

If you cant handle Africa then stay south of the Limpopo !

[aviation-tokoloshe]

ct, I also heard them, and spoke to ATC with my best French accent to avoid being confused as one of the same. I landed just after you. Were you flying the Bae?

[Cave Troll]

Aviation-Tokoloshe nope not me. Only 2 more guesses. Have flown bae's though fortunately not any more!

ct

[ERASER]

Flying up and down in Africa I have heard them all (pilots) take a shot at the ATC, English, French, German, Americans and locals………sometimes rightly so in order to facilitate the safety in the sky, as we all know Africa has the highest safety standards, other times to the embarrassment of other flying crews………but to pick on one grouping, is a little absurd as it is known to happen that English SA pilots switch to Afrikaans………..when trying to make a point or just in general to stuff up.

So, DAH, thank you for your history lesson, personally I think your facts are a bit skew, but hey, what ever floats your boat…….

[Der absolute Hammer]

Hey Eraser......

The facts are not skew b ut for the purposes of Pprune, the affected and the effected bias could be.
But then, hey! Is that not so typical of Pprune pages?

[TAVLA]

If you cant handle Africa then stay south of the Limpopo !

With attitudes like this no wonder Africa has such a bad safety record.

Sorry for you MR but no airline worthy of the title, whether South African or from elsewhere will compromise safety at any stage at any airport. It it means taking it up with ATC at an appropriate time then so be it. Accepting the status quo will ensure many more passengers will die.

[Carrier]

This is not just a language or local politics issue, it is also a SAFETY issue. 176 died in the crash between a BA Trident and a DC-9 on 10 September 1976. A major contributing factor to this mid-air crash was: “The controller was speaking in Croatian to the Yugoslavian plane, which meant that the Trident crew was deprived of information that might have saved their lives.”

Similar concerns have been posted on this and other boards in the past, particularly about the use of French by controllers and pilots in France and Quebec, Canada. Others are unable to understand and lose situational awareness, to the detriment of safety.

There have been other crashes and near misses worldwide because of the use of other than English. (see article below) Should more be deliberately risked for local political reasons or should everything reasonably possible be done to remove unnecessary risks and improve aviation safety? When it comes to aviation one’s ability in languages other than English is irrelevant as for SAFETY only English should be used worldwide in aviation.

Note that the use of English in aviation is not specifically anti-French. ALL other languages should not be used in aviation. Like it or not, English is supposed to be the international language of aviation and for SAFETY is the only language that should be used in aviation communications. Also, like it or lump it, English is the de facto world language of international trade and commerce.

South Africans demonstrate more responsibility and consideration for safety in the aviation language issue than do aviating citizens of certain other countries. Flying in South Africa on and off for nearly four decades I do not recall hearing Afrikaans being used for ATC communications. I have heard the odd conversation on ATC frequencies in Afrikaans between persons who should have been using the air-to-air frequency. This is another matter that also impacts aviation SAFETY. Using an ATC frequency for social chitchats in any language, including English, blocks the frequency and prevents others from making safety related calls. Keep your personal conversations and verbose greetings off the ATC frequencies!

It is a sad commentary on some countries that political expediency takes precedence over aviation SAFETY and common sense. This can and should be remedied without delay. Flight crews, the travelling public and (as demonstrated at Lockerbie) those on the ground deserve better.


Interesting article below:

"ICAO New Language Proficiency Requirements: A Safety Priority For SEPLA

Between 1976 and 2000, more than 1,100 passengers and crew lost their lives in accidents in which investigators determined that language had played a contributory role. Moreover, numerous incidents involving language issues, including a number of runway incursions, are reported annually.
Concern over the role of language in airline accidents turned into action in 1998 when the ICAO Assembly assigned high priority to efforts to strengthen provisions concerning language requirements. Thus, in March 2003 ICAO amended Annexes 1, 6, 10 and 11 which contained the new language proficiency requirements. From 5th March 2008, a new ICAO proficiency standard for the use of English in aviation will become applicable to enhance safety. The emphasis is on the ability of pilots and air traffic controllers, both native and non-native English speakers, to comprehend and communicate effectively to a common standard.
The emphasis is firmly on speaking and listening abilities, and correct use of ICAO standard phraseology. ICAO standardised phraseology shall be used in all situations for which it has been specified. Only when standardised phraseology cannot serve an intended transmission, plain language shall be used. Moreover, the emphasis is on clarity, timely response and accuracy of ATC communication. Six levels of linguistic proficiency have been defined, with a minimum requirement to meet the ICAO Level 4 (operational). All pilots and controllers will be required to demonstrate proper adherence to ICAO international communication procedures. But the real emphasis is on comprehension and the ability to deal with non-standard situations. Provision is made for periodic retesting for those who cannot demonstrate Level 6 proficiency.
Article 33 of the Chicago Convention makes the international recognition of a flight crew license conditional on full compliance with all relevant ICAO Standards including language proficiency;........"

[Arik]

The new ICAO date for all states to conform is March 2011, with rumours of this being pushed back as far as 2015!

It is a problem, probably more so in Africa than other continents.

Arik

[three eighty]

if the Boers had moved up to the what is now Congo when they left the Cape in the 1820s & 30s on the Great Trek, an exodus which they undertook in order to perpetuate slavery, then Afrikaans might be a language recognised by ICAO

Hammer,
Clearly you have it in for the "Boers" which makes you as guilty as the negative connotation you allude to in your post.
The fact of the matter is that the multicultural environment of todays aviation requires a single recognised language which is critical to safety. English is that recognised and accepted language. It isn't French, Russian, Spanish etc. This was decided by ICAO. Now had ICAO decided on some other language, we would have abided by it but as English is the most widely spoken language in the industry, thats the language we expect to hear on the radio. Just as was decided that GMT would be the official time reference point.
I have been in the circuit in Conakry where ATC was speaking French to an Air France inbound. We had no idea where he was or what his intentions were. It was unsettling and unsafe. A quick request to both parties to speak English sorted the situation out.
Snide remarks about "Boers" North of the Limpopo and slavery do absolutely nothing to improve what is a shamefull safety record in Africa. To shoot someone down for requesting English on the radio in the interests of safety is somewhat short sighted.
I would be interested to hear what your definition of a "Boer" is? The thread was titled "embarrasing Saffers". You chose to make it about Boers.
Last I remember a Saffer is a South African. Now as you well know, South Africa has 11 official languages. It is a multi cultural, multi racial society.
Many of those cultures and races speak more than one language as their mother tongue.
Which of those 11 did you assume was the guilty party and on what basis?

[Der absolute Hammer]

three eighty..to try to answer your questions to me briefly, because this moves very much away from the original thread and so I will be quick and possibly final on this. It seems that you have taken some cultural offense at what I wrote so let me try, in the intersts of the racial harmony, to de-fuse the issues about which you feel so strong.
I see no negative connotations in what I wrote and I have nothing against the Boers, who were after all, stalwart trekkers, of whom it only might be said that their interpretation of the bible may be open to discussion. I think I said nothing about guilt but only, in a light hearted way tried to super impose a hypothetical historical event relating to one cultural element of the South African population into the development of the common language of the Congo. A connection which does not fit, of course, which is why French is the official language of the Congo and, as you point out so correctly, par hazard, English is the official language of aviation. As for the snide remarks, not at all, I made a factual remark as to the reason for of the great trek and nor did I shoot someone down for their language preference. Of course the crew had a right to request transmission in English, but I do not think that that was exactly what they politely did, but I was not there of course.
This one liner from post 14.....
The facts are not skew but for the purposes of PPRuNe, the affected and the effected bias could be.
Should have provided a clue as to the seriousness of the original post - sorry it did not work that way.

[ERASER]

“As for the snide remarks, not at all, I made a factual remark as to the reason for of the great trek and”

DAH, please check your facts about the great trek, in short, the reason for the great trek was actually to escape the slavery of English rule………The English didn’t like their slaves fleeing into the wild unknown and they send the army to fetch them back……..re the “Boer War”…….so, it’s actually the English that wanted to perpetuate slavery………….

:}

[Der absolute Hammer]

ERASER..
Hah! History...you are incorrect.
A simple quote will be sufficient I think.
The Great Trek

The historical events in 19th century South Africa are marked by the "Groot Trek". Starting in 1835, more than 10,000 Boers, the Voortrekkers, left the Cape Colony with their families and went north and north-east. The reasons for this mass exodus were their economic problems, the threatening danger of conflict with the Xhosa, who settled on the other side of the Fish River, and primarily, discontent with the English colonial authorities who didn't provide sufficient protection and had forbidden the slave trade and postulated the equality of whites and non-whites.

from this web site..

The Great Trek - South Africa History (http://www.southafrica-travel.net/history/eh_gtre1.htm)

The British anti slavery bills and the efforts of Herr Wilberforce are well documented.

[ERASER]

So you got your reliable information from the internet……mhhhhhh…..:)

[Capetonian]

At least he didn't get it from Wikipedia, that mine of misinformation. Of course it has its uses, but it annoys me when people say : "It was on Wikipedia so it must be right." It's not the Britannica.

By the way, great repository of sick jokes here : Sick Joke Wiki - Sickipedia (http://www.sickipedia.org/index.php?title=Main_Page)

[divinehover]

There's a big difference with operating an aircraft into Paris where French is also been spoken and operating into Kinshasa/Brazza or Luanda (Portugese). The level of ATC at these places is disgraceful to say the least and when it's mixed with the controller speaking to a local in local it makes for a dangerus flying.

There's more to been a ICAO signatory State than a signature. You have actually comply to the standards as well.

Unfortunately we will lose more a/c in these places until the standards improve.

DH

[maxrated]

With attitudes like this no wonder Africa has such a bad safety record.

Sorry for you MR but no airline worthy of the title, whether South African or from elsewhere will compromise safety at any stage at any airport. It it means taking it up with ATC at an appropriate time then so be it. Accepting the status quo will ensure many more passengers will die.

TAVLA, I agree that it is good to adress safety concerns through appropriate channels, but what was under discussion was suppossedly proffessional airline crews getting chirpy and sarcastic with ATC's on working frequencies.

This behavior is unproffessional and serves no constructive purpose and only adds to the existing mahyam and confusion.

Max

[piapito]

Dear Mr.Hammer

Even from your first post you were TOTALLY out of line and your comments were uncalled for, especially referring to the "BOERS" as a whole and there attitude towards "slavery", then I'll let go of a couple of other issues too. If it wasn't for the Boers I am pretty damn sure you wouldn't have been here today. I don't want to know from what cultural background you are ,because I don't bloody care , but let me tell you 1 thing, I really do not hope that they would have to use your dental records to identify your charred remains after a mid-air in the Congo OK!!!, a tragedy like that just because you did not want to voice your right to English ATC services to help you create a picture of what the hell is going on around you in places like CONGO!!. At the end of the day you know just as well as I do that if you are not 100% aware of/or at least try to the best of you ability to find out what the hell is happening around you, you're gonna crash and burn. En ek hoop nie ons paaie kruis eendag nie, want met iemand soos jy wat geen positiewe bydraes tot hierdie forum kan by bring nie, en met absolute irrasionele stellings soos hierdie k.....k van jou!!! Mag ek jou dalk net moer. Sharpen up on the French dude, coz it seems like you gonna need it to keep your a**s in the air. ;)

[4HolerPoler]

Thread closed - guys when will we ever draw close & stop beating up on each other?

4HP