Linux Corner

[LD Max]

While I'm trying to sort out my server problems, I'm also battling with spammers trying to use my server for a relay. Unfortunately for them, it's closed so they're just spamming away at a brick wall.

This is, however, generating REAMS of log entries.

I need to start blocking the spammer's IP address (refuse connection), but am having real difficulty with sorting the Log. Every entry is recorded in chronological order, but in fact many processes run for days attempting delivery to bounced non-existent addresses.

I've tried sorting the file in Excel by JOB number, and that at least has grouped processes together. But now it's difficult to find the connection which triggered the process in the first place.

What I really need is a good log analyzer which can track and thread processes. I hear there's something called "Logcheck" for Linux, which e-mails log reports to the admin account each day.

Does anyone know where I can get this, or if there are better / smarter log analysers out there?

Cheers

[Keef]

I turned off that log feature in Linux. It produced vast reams of stuff that I didn't want. It would send it to me when I logged on - "You have mail!" just before the StartX screen kicked in, so if I ignored it for a couple of seconds it disappeared anyway. There is probably a way to pick up that mail at a more helpful time, but I stopped looking before I found it.

Can you turn up the security a notch on your router, so that the spammers don't even register on the PC? If Shields Up! says it's fully stealthed, they should get bored and go away after a while. Mine's like that, and I now have the log turned off.

I turn on the router's log once in a while, just to check, and there's usually either nothing or just a couple of "pings".

[LD Max]

Can you turn up the security a notch on your router, so that the spammers don't even register on the PC? If Shields Up! says it's fully stealthed, they should get bored and go away after a while.

Thanks for the suggestions, but it defeats the point of having a mailserver if you hide it behind the firewall :rolleyes:

I don't want to stop anyone (or other mailservers) connecting to it. I need to receive the (genuine) mail they want to send me! But I do want to block those IPs who are trying to spam the server, and for that I need to be able to analyze the logs a bit better than I can at the moment.

(I'll be pointing it to the spamcop blacklist soon too - when I figure out how!!!)

[Mac the Knife]

http://www.freeos.com/articles/3540/

"You can download Logcheck from http://www.psionic.com and go for the download URL. Get the latest sources. At the time of writing the article, Logcheck was in version 1.1.1. A point to be noted out here; while you can download Logcheck as a non root user, you would have to login as root while installing as Logcheck prefers to install its scripts, binaries and other configuration files to directories owned by root.

Step 1

Untarring the sources is the first step towards [blah, blah blah]

Good luck!

:ok:

Ooops! That psionic url leads to Cisco. But Logcheck is still available on Sourceforge at http://sourceforge.net/projects/logcheck

[LD Max]

Good Man! :D

Thanks very much. :ok:

[Mac the Knife]

http://www.puppylinux.org/user/images/puppylinux_logo_trans.gif

Puppy Linux - http://www.puppylinux.org - is a slick smooth fast mini-distro that's designed to run off a live CD or USB key. Interestingly, it can also run off a rewritable CD/DVD and keep stuff there! Or it can store your personal data on a Windows partition.

I installed it to the harddrive of an old 233 PII with 256Mb memory I have lying around and it's bloody impressive! Very fast, really pretty and very capable!

Lots of variants available, I used PuppyOffice (fat at 120MB download) which has OpenOffice2 included and it really is remarkably good.

Give it a whirl! Standard Puppy is only a 70Mb download.

[Cheerio]

How do you boot from a USB port? I did download puppy to play with but fell at that hurdle.

[Mac the Knife]

You have to create a Puppy boot CD first (download an .iso and burn it as as .iso). Boot from it and checkout the Install section, there should be one to install to USB key. Remember to set your machine to try and boot from USB first in the BIOS.

There's a guide at - http://www.apcstart.com/usb/puppy/

[None of the above]

This help page might be of assistance:

My PC can't boot from USB|CD

http://www.puppylinux.com/boot2pup.htm

Posted at the same time as Mac.

[Mac the Knife]

Just to add...

Puppy Linux Dummies Guide
http://tmxxine.com/Wikka/wikka.php?wakka=PuppyLinux

and the wiki
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HowToUsePuppy

http://www.puppylinux.org/user/images/puppylinux_logo_trans.gif

I think Puppy is great fun and very clever. My Pup is rapidly morphing into a dog!

Tip: Unless you're familiar with iptables don't turn the firewall on if you're on a local network (otherwise it's fine). I found getting SAMBA to work over a firewall quite difficult.

[Mac the Knife]

From the Inquirer - http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34625

"A BRAZILIAN web designer got tired of having to boot Windows to see how web pages looked in IE, so he coded a little script allowing anyone to download, install and run IE on Linux.

...Sérgio Lopes, a 21 years old web designer and Linux user from Brazil, decided to make it easy for non-techies to install and run the Windows version of the Vole's web browser effortlessly.

That's how 'IEs4Linux' was born, a script that 'automagically' downloads and installs not one but the last three release versions of Internet Explorer -6.0, 5.5 SP2, and 5.0- on any 32-bit linux desktop with the wine core libraries in place. The installer program by Lopes -released under a GPL licence- relies on 'wine' and a third party utility dubbed 'cabextract' to decompress the windows archives downloaded from Microsoft's site. The IEs4Linux program is at version 2.0 after a long beta testing period that spanned from April to August."

I think IE is an awful browser but some sites are hard-coded to IE and unusable with anything else. Personally, I don't bother and we successfully lobbied my bank to make it's website and transactions W3C compatible so that other browsers could use 'em :ok:

Rather than going the IE for Linux route we should pressurise websites to conform to W3C standards!

But Rome wasn't built in a day.

"The program's author advises: "Please, don’t use any of these IEs to navigate!! Get Firefox instead". And I agree, the last thing the web needs is for broken sites to remain broken and IE only. But while we bug forever the worst lazy webmasters to fix their web sites for cross-platform, web standards compliance, IEs4Linux is a beautiful way to avoid booting Windows or the bloat of dealing with a complete Windows virtual machine on something like VMWare. "

Get IE 4 Linux at http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/index-en.html

Mac

[amanoffewwords]

Good info Mac, Thanks 4 that.

As an aside I'm currently adding Google Maps to a couple of my sites - guess which browser had trouble displaying the location pins after I tested it successfully in Firefox, Opera and even Netscape?:ugh:

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey. I want to install a copy of Linux on my Laptop, i only have a copy of the old RH8 and a copy of SUSE 8.?. I dont want to pay, so i am looking for a freebie. Whats out there? I am going to be using Linux more for development use. I want it more or less just for C Code, as i am doing this at Uni. Ideally i want Solaris, but i cant get it to install on my laptop, keeps saying Hardware not recognised and reboots, cant find a way around it. anyways, any advice would be grateful. Thanks...

[Gertrude the Wombat]

keeps saying Hardware not recognised and reboots, cant find a way around it
Welcome to free software!

You could always pay for something. Then:

(1) There's a fair chance it will actually work.
(2) If it doesn't work you've got someone to complain to.
(3) Programmers will continue to write new software, so you'll actually have some software to use.

Some people seem to be incapable of understanding that programmers have mortgages to pay and children to feed just like anyone else - why should their work, uniquely, be expected to be given away for nothing???:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[rotorcraig]

I needed a free Unix distro to host a Mail server and Ubuntu is working fine for me :)

Had problems installing from the "Live CD" onto an older PC (didn't have sufficient memory to install from the GUI) but the "Altenate CD" (which uses a text base GUI during installation) worked fine.

RC

[Mac the Knife]

Urrr... Linux IS free

Linux (or GNU/Linux if you want to be picky) as an operating system is distributed under the Gnu Public Licence (v2) - which means that the software (and source code)is free and open. You can use is, copy it, pass it on and pretty much do whatever you like with it (especially mess around with it). If you make changes and then distribute it then you must (under the terms of the GPL), pass on (by including the source code of) any improvements or modifications you make.

Here is the GPL - http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html - quite simple and worth reading.

There are hundreds of "versions" of Linux available for free on the Web - most belong to a few main families like Red Hat, SuSE, Debian etc.

There are thousands of free applications available for download on the Web - anything from office suites to CD burners to compilers to nuclear physics. Most of them are open-source.

There are also a smaller number of non-free applications which are closed-source. These are mostly very specialised apps. - you're free to use these under Linux if you want.

If you distribute Linux you can charge whatever you like for it, $1,000,000 if you want, but there are plenty of free versions so you may not have many takers! You can charge for the CD's, support and documentation, but not the software.

The boxed versions that SuSe, Red Hat and the rest make their money from include support, guides, and documentation.

I'd junk your old Red Hat and SuSe 8 (they're way out of date) and try out a recent release.

I'd suggest Mepis Linux - http://www.mepis.org/ or Kubuntu - http://www.kubuntu.org/

Yes, there is life after Microsoft - and considering the drastic licence terms of Vista (only two installs and then you have to buy a new copy, pervasive digital rights management, no virtual machine installations, restrictions restrictions restrictions, etc.) now's the time to switch.

[Keef]

I've been dabbling with Linux, on an old PC, for a couple of years. It is indeed free (or most versions are).

The one I get on best with is Fedora. I paid something, not a lot, for the CDs of it. I think I could have downloaded it for free, but for the size of the download it wasn't worth the faffing.

I've also installed Debian (excellent, but on my machine it's not as stable as Fedora), SuSe v 10.1 (OK), Ubuntu (bit restricted), and Knoppix (really a "run from CD" package).

The enormous plus of Debian is Kpackage - an installer that will download a complete list of all software available for Debian, and install what you choose for you. It's quite amazing what's available for Debian! The installation process is pretty much fully automatic - all that nonsense of compiling, building, testing, etc before installing is gone.

There is a similar package for Fedora, called Yum (or Yumex if you want a GUI version), but mine doesn't show anything like as much stuff as does Kpackage.

With Linux and Grub (or any of the alternatives) you can have as many versions (aka distros) of Linux as you like (and as you have hard drive partitions). You can boot to whichever one you want to use today. If you put your mail etc folders on a separate partition, you can use the same mail/data folders regardless of which distro you are running.

Once Win XP ceases to do the job, and Vista tries to make those silly restrictions, I'll be a Linux bunny.

[Mac the Knife]

Ho ho! Just spotted Gertude the Wombat's post - popped in while I was writing.

I wouldn't take too much notice of Gertrude if I were you planecrazy - she's a Bill Gates fanboi troll who always emerges to badmouth Linux when the subject comes up.

Hey Gertrude, does it occur to you that poor old planecrazy is probably trying to install Solaris for SPARC on an x86 platform? No wonder the poor chap isn't having much luck!

(1) There's a fair chance it will actually work.

It works for most of the servers on the Internet and for millions of home users and businesses. Don't be so silly.

(2) If it doesn't work you've got someone to complain to.

Well, you can always join in a forum or send a bug-report to the author(s) - you've got a lot better chance of getting an answer than emailing Micro$haft - ROTFL!

(3) Programmers will continue to write new software, so you'll actually have some software to use.

Even sillier. New apps for Linux are being released a lot faster than new apps for Windows. At least the Linux APIs are free and open, which certainly isn't the case for MS. Bugs get fixed within days and released apps are regularly improved and updated. What planet are you living on?

"Some people seem to be incapable of understanding that programmers have mortgages to pay and children to feed just like anyone else - why should their work, uniquely, be expected to be given away for nothing???"

Plenty of programmers make a good living writing in-house Linux software for businesses or working for the big Linux houses. Some of the code is released under the GPL so that others can use it, improve it and pass it on. Some of them tinker with GNU or kernel code for fun. You are, as always, labouring under massive misapprehensions about open-source software.

Gertrude believes that there should be only one software company in the world, that will write all our apps., tell us what to do and what to think and collect all our money. I prefer to have my nose somewhere less odoriferous....

:ok:

[planecrazy.eu]

Thanks for all the posts, have been loads of help. Mac, you are half way right with Solaris, i did have the Spark version, but that wouldnt run at all. I got the X86 and giving me hardware issue, not so sure if its due to been a laptop?

I am also finding very few reasons to stick with M$ now. All i need is FS2004, and i am considering just scrapping that now FSX looks like its just got a graphics makeover and going for X-plane.

I just downloaded Freespire, seems pretty good, i got a demo of a Windows Emu from Linspire and it run FS pretty well, and a funny thing is, it costs less that a copy of Windows, i am pretty sure though it would have some drawbacks?

Thanks again anyway, i am going to try figure out Solaris as thats what my Uni is running and i wanted it to be the same, but if not, looks like Fedora is my pic. Thanks again...

[Mac the Knife]

Solaris on a laptop CAN be done, but be prepared for a long hard struggle.

It seems that the difficulties with some laptops are near insuperable, so it depends on what laptop you have. Solaris, true to it's orgins, only understands a limited range of hardware.

Google for "solaris laptop" - lots of hits - http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/x86-laptops.html is a starter.

I got Solaris booting successfully on an Intel-based x86 desktop and then, I confess, lost interest.

Good luck!

:ok:

[planecrazy.eu]

Thanks for the URL. Not sure if its worth the effort, but i will have a go. I am getting the error due to not having my partitions set-up correct for Solaris (According to a help site article bug base thing). My experience is limited here, and would like a nice graphical partition manager, and suggestions?

[ormus55]

try and find out what others are using with the same laptop as you have.
no use reinventing the wheel.

i can recommend ubuntu, knoppix or redhat all day to you , but ive no idea if they will work on your lappy HW. all the others are in the same boat.

some lappys and some devices just cannot work with linux. nobody has written the drivers for them. yet.
good luck.

[IO540]

My son managed to comprehensively trash his laptop, mainly (as kids do) by installing the content of every computer magazine cover CD onto it. This was after he put a virus called Windows Vista (beta, build 5744222653) on it! Then he caught about 15 trojans.

The machine ended up running at about 1/10 to 1/100 of its normal speed. Later one of the boot files got trashed and now it won't boot.

Anyway, booting with a Knoppix CD we can access all the data files, copy them off onto a flash card, etc. Works amazingly well. We will then do a shop restore, from the usual hidden partition, taking it back to XP Home. Knoppix fails to run some of the hardware e.g. the wifi and sound but this doesn't matter for this purpose.

Now, he likes Linux and wants to play with that! But he also needs XP back, to run some apps.

So I am thinking about doing a double boot: XP and Linux.

I have never really used "Unix" (have used DOS, etc, being an assembler/C developer) but know that X-Windows is the graphical user interface. I also know there are many different versions of it.

Can anyone recommend one, which will create a boot menu as described, come with Open Office, etc? There is just one partition (C:) in total.

[Mac the Knife]

There isn't really a "best" Linux distro anymore than there is a "best" car, just one that suits you more than another.

The essential bits of the mainline distros are for practical purposes pretty similar. The engine under the hood is more or less the same. Linux uses two main desktop environments, Gnome or KDE (there are others, like Xfce) - Gnome is simpler and KDE is more Windows like - both are excellent. You can always chose which one you use, it's just that some distros are more Gnome orientated and some more KDE friendly.

Most of the well-known Linux distros come with a nice graphical installer and good package (application) management software for updating and adding or removing software.

If you're going for a double-boot, always install Windows FIRST and then Linux - Windows deliberately trashes any non-Microsoft operating systems or partitions that it finds on install, whereas Linux respects other OSes, makes it's own partition(s) without damaging existing ones and will usually set up a dual-boot automatically.

Personally I like SuSE but I'd also suggest Mepis Linux - http://www.mepis.org/ or Kubuntu - http://www.kubuntu.org/

If you prefer the Gnome desktop then Ubuntu Linux - http://www.ubuntu.com/ is very popular and supports a lot of hardware.

As for the Vaio, if you google for "linux vaio" there's pages and pages of info. on distros and how to do it.

:ok:

PS: Most Linux distros install all the software you'll ever need when you install the OS - office suites, CD writers, audio and video software, browsers. e-mail clients, calculators and so on and so forth. You can always remove applications that you don't need or don't want from the Control Panel equivalent. There is lots of other stuff on the CD and even more in the distros web repository (library) that you can install if you need/want it.

[rotorcraig]

Very similar thread already underway here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=248151).

RC

[Eddie_Crane]

The UNIX admin guy where I used to work didn't like VAIOs because of "compatibility problems". I'm not sure what he meant by that, but I take it it's probably to do with hardware compatibility and Linux s/w.
This was last year anyway, things may well have changed big time by now..

[BOFH]

Cesco
<UNIX admins>
This was last year anyway, things may well have changed big time by now.
UNIX admins never change. :)

As Mac points out, poison first, antidote afterwards. Ubuntu is a good bet - RedHat has plenty of support but seems to be meandering. If you want to punish your son, try Solaris 10 if he aspires to be a UNIX admin. That might be a little too cruel, though.

You are a little hamstrung, in that you cannot thow in a new physical disk for your new OS, so please ensure that anything you cannot afford to lose from the Mickeysoft partition (and you _will_ need to partition your disk) is safeguarded.

BOFH

[Capt Snooze]

A free version of Solaris is available to run under VM, which will run on Windows. Works fine on my Acer Aspire 5560.

Try http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/ for the basic idea, then http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/directory/ to find the Solaris 10 links. All free. Various versions of Linux also available.

Very interesting stuff, and relatively seamless (on my machine). Best of both worlds and no dual booting.



Snooze

[Mac the Knife]

A free version of Solaris is available to run under VM, which will run on Windows.

(blah blah)

Best of both worlds and no dual booting.

Snooze

Now that's a good suggestion:ok:

Smart thinking Snooze!

[planecrazy.eu]

Just got back and read that post snooze. Sounds great, running it from Windows would be a better option. Thanks for that, and the other posts, i am going with Fedora for now. Will try and install Solaris 10 in VM ware later today...

[IO540]

My son has just put Ubuntu on his Sony laptop.

Quite nice (if you like that sort of thing) but we got stuck installing Samba (necessary to view his windoze partition data).

And, along with apparently half the internet, we found that it doesn't support WPA/PSK so all our wifi access points, home and work, would have to be reconfigured (with plain old 64-bit WEP) specially for it :ugh: In this fairly basic respect it is about 3 years behind windoze.

[IO540]

He's got Ubuntu - see my post on the other thread. The installation seems to have worked out fine.

[Mac the Knife]

but we got stuck installing Samba (necessary to view his windoze partition data).

I'll be the first to admit that getting Samba working completely transparently can be a chore (it's FAR easier with most distros than it used to be) but I'm a bit confused by what you write.

You don't need SAMBA to access your Windows partition, you just need to define a mount point and mount your Windows partition there.

From Linux you can read NTFS partitions no problem, but writing to them is more problematic (MS won't release any details of the NTFS system so writing has to be reverse engineered and MS make this as difficult as possible).

But CAPTIVE - http://www.jankratochvil.net/project/captive/ and FUSE - http://www.linux-ntfs.org/ at least make writing possible albeit a bit slow (only important if you're shifting a lot of data).

Linux reads and writes FAT-32 without needing any tinkering but it's an old filesystem with no understanding of permissions and ACLs. Nevertheless, putting shared data on a FAT-32 partition (or just using it as a temporary transfer area) is a quick solution.

There are other approaches. One is to format your Windows data partition as ext3 and use the free Ext2 File System Driver for Windows - http://sourceforge.net/projects/ext2fsd - Linux of course understands ext2/ext3 partitions without problems.

:ok:

[rotorcraig]

My son has just put Ubuntu on his Sony laptop.

... found that it doesn't support WPA/PSK ...

According to the WifiDocs/WPAHowTo page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/WPAHowTo) in the Ubuntu documentation, it does?

... got stuck installing Samba ...

I've managed to work out all the Samba I've needed using the relevant section in the Ubuntu Starter Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper#Samba_Server).
But agree with Mac that I'm not sure it's what you need to pick up a Windoze partition on the same machine.

RC

[IO540]

Sorry guys you are right - Samba is for windoze networking. I got confused. It was opening the NTFS partition we need a solution to (Ubuntu just says it cannot mount it). Creating a small FAT16 or FAT32 partition and use that to transfer the data is one OK solution.

I did do a google for the WPA/PSK issue but TBH I know so little about Linux and the way it works... I don't even know how to install a program under it! My son just wants to have a play. I keep telling him that an O/S is no more than a platform for running applications :) He had earlier put Vista (beta build XXXXX) on it, thoroughly trashed it with it (it worked but extremely slowly) and we had to restore it from the recovery partition.

I won't spend a lot of time on this. A friend knows unix well and I will ask him to help on the WPA/PSK issue.

[shaky]

As a result of reading Mac The Knife's recommendation in the "Longest Suicide Note" thread, I decided to give SimplyMEPIS 6.0.1 a trial from the live CD on my XP box.

I was very impressed by the way that it picked up all my internet and wireless network connections and worked flawlessly "out of the box" as the saying goes. Unfortunately, it will not recognise my Canon MP700 printer/scanner/copier. I have visited the Canon download site and they do not seem to offer a Linux driver for this machine.

Can anyone offer a suggestion to overcome this problem?
An alternative source for the driver or a different Linux distro perhaps? All information gratefully received.

[rotorcraig]

A bit of a Google using various combinations of "drivers canon mp700 linux ubuntu suse" got me to http://www.turboprint.info/

Haven't tried it so no idea whether it's value for money / whether there are better cheaper (free?) alternatives.

RC

[matelot]

Nothing under System Administration - Peripherals? Have you tried here:
"http://http://www.mepislovers.com/forums/index.php"

Go to Hardware then Printers: listings of supported types are being developed.

[Mac the Knife]

Mepis is a cool distro - glad you like it!

That's the tough thing about switching, you're stuck with the gear you have and can't just start with hardware that supports Linux....

Luckily Stylus Toolbox - http://stylus-toolbox.sourceforge.net/ - drives my Epson Stylus Photo R200 very nicely.

I don't have a Canon printer, so I've never looked for drivers.

There's a Canon subgroup on the mepis org forums - http://www.mepis.org/forum/107 - have a look there or ask, they're always very helpful .

There's also a good Mepis forum on LinuxQuestions.org - http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/f64 - where you could look/ask.

Contrary to some perceptions, Linux people are normally extremely helpful if you're polite and it seems like you've made an effort to solve your problem yourself. It's a community, after all.

At the moment Canon provide drivers for the iP2200-iP4200 and iP1000-iP1500 PIXMA series only - http://www.canon-europe.com/Support/software/linux/

Drivers for multifunction scanner/printer/copier machines are in general much harder to find.

Canon has a page at - http://www.canon-europe.com/Support/Software/Linux/registration.asp - where you can register to request support for your printer. Even if you don't get it, at least they know that people want it. It's the squeaky wheel that gets the oil!

In the end, the driver problem will only be resolved if we can show manufacturers that there is a demand for Linux drivers, and that providing them will sell more of their hardware $$$.

I start with the helpdesk and if this doesn't work (occasionally they can be really helpful!), write or email the most senior people in the company with an explanation and polite request. Someday you'll strike gold (they'll wake up and produce a driver) so you'll benefit other users as well as yourself.

:ok:

Mac

PS: Linuxprinting.org - http://www.freestandards.org/en/OpenPrinting - have a huge database with lots of tips and guides

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Can anyone offer a suggestion to overcome this problem?
Windows.

(But you knew I'd say that.)

[Keef]

Canon printers and Linux don't mix well.
My HP Laserjet works fine (via the network) from my Linux machine.
My Canon ip4000 will NOT. Mind you, its Windows drivers are over 50 MB so there's something odd about it.

There are some cobbled Linux drivers that will produce output from the Canon, but it's not to the standard the machine is capable of.

[shaky]

My sincere thanks to all of you who have replied (wipe that smile off your face Wombat!). I have checked out all the links provided and have reluctantly decided not to continue the struggle until I need a new printer.

I still find it very strange that the OS effortlessly achieved what I thought would be problematic and then failed to cope with a printer produced in the tens of thousands by a major manufacturer.

As suggested by Mac The Knife I contacted Canon to point out the lack of a manufacturer's Linux driver and their reply was rather less than helpful.
Thank you for your E-mail inquiry.

At his point Linux drivers are not available for Canon products.
There is no information available to indicate that plans exist to develop
Linux drivers.

Should you require further assistance, please feel free to email us or
visit our customer support website at http://www.canon.ca (http://www.canon.ca/)


Sincerely,

So, Bill, it looks like the Wombat has the last laugh and I'm back with you.

Shaky
(W3.0 - WXP and still hating it)

[Keef]

I think, if the Windows driver is small, there's likely to be a Linux one. When you get to Canon, things are different.

"If anyone can, Canon can" is a bit of a two-edged sword.

If/when the senior folks hear that customers are complaining, something might happen - as Mac said.

[BOFH]

shaky
I am sorry that you have had bad luck.

We take it for granted now that printers will be compatible with a given OS. Unless you are using BGware, that will be the case for some time in the future.

That does not mean that they cannot be used. Before the Intarweb thing really came into being, people like I had to wade through Big Thick Manuals and ask friends how a Thai character set could be put through mumble-mumble systems and produce Thai at the other end. My lead programmer spent 36 hours straight on that baby.

The beauty is that this information is now shared. People whom you will never know have put countless hours' effort into breaking through. Even if it is fruitless, imagine how good you'll feel if did you crack it - and can tell every other MP700 user how it's done - and what you experienced?

You have nothing to lose but your BSODs

BOFH

[Mac the Knife]

Turboprint, which rotorcraig mentioned - http://www.turboprint.de/english.html - allegedly supports the MP700 - I don't know how good it is.

Canon give more Linux support than it seems, but only on their Japanese website.

Canon's Linux drivers page is at [3], if you can parse or guess your way through Japanese.

If you can't, there's some discussion at [4].

Debian and Ubuntu (Mepis is Ubuntu based) repackaging of the CUPs drivers by Takushi Miyoshi is at [7]. He's even rewritten the pstocanon[bi]j program and PPDs supplied by Canon, since the supplied ones crashed for him and the source was apparently awful.

[1] http://lists.freestandards.org/pipermail/printing-user-canon/2004/001528.html
[2] ftp://download.canon.jp/pub/driver/bj/linux/
[3] http://cweb.canon.jp/drv-upd/bj/other.html#linux
[4] http://www.suseforums.net/lofiversion/index.php/t16956.html
[5] http://download.canon.jp/pub/driver/bj/linux/bjfilterpixus950i-2.2-1.i386.rpm
[6] http://download.canon.jp/pub/driver/bj/linux/bjfiltercups-2.2-1.i386.rpm
[7] http://mambo.kuhp.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~takushi/

You might even try emailing Takushi at the address given in [7]

That's based on half-an-hour of Googling. The long and the short of it seems to be that if you spend a few days hunting and farting around trying various drivers you should get at least basic functionality working and maybe more. Whether you've got the time for that is another matter.

If I had an equivalent Canon printer I'd do it for you, if only to wipe the glee off Gertie's face.

Microsoft's monopoly and their pressure on manufacturers not to support other OSes is the real problem, so Windows isn't much of a solution.

:ok:

[Keef]

While I sit and do the mail, the Linux machine the other side of the study is updating its software and installing a dozen or so packages for me to try out - including Audacity (which I use a lot on the PC), WinAmp, and Bluetooth networking.

All free (sorry, but the authors made them that way), and all automatically downloaded and installed from a single menu listing all the software available from a list of sources.

Not bad, I reckon.

[tiggermoth]

I'm just wondering if any of you have given Linux a whirl at all?

[Keef]

Yes, lots.

[matelot]

I use SimplyMEPIS 6.0 almost exclusively (except for updating the TomTom). Linux is not meant to be a rival to Windows, but an alternative OS.

If Windows does what you want, or you don't like getting your fingers dirty, or PCs leave you cold, then stick to Windows.

If you want control of your computer back, are fed up with viruses, malware, spyware, BSOD, lack of control, costs et al., then seriously investigate the many distributions of Linux.

And it's all comprehensive and free. :ok:

PS - Look at all the OS queries on this forum. What are virtually all connected with? Windows?

[batninth]

Tiggermoth

Use search and you'll find several threads about Linux & Windows and how the differences manifest themselves.

The big thing I would say is that it down to how much you want to use your PC quickly and how much you want to support it yourself. Try Mepis or Ubuntu, you can load off the CD and try it out without having to install on your hard drive to see if you like it.

To give an example the PC I use has Windows XP & Ubuntu 6.10. Win XP loads & I can get the driver support for my Wireless card loaded - time to get it up and running and ready to go was about 2 hours.

Ubuntu took a lot of work to get the wireless adaptor in place, including loading source code and compiling the code. Similarly getting media working took a long time - so time to get it up & running at the same level as Windows was probably abut 10 hours plus I had to have access to the internet in order to get access to the internet.

I've said it before & I'll say it again - if you want an easy life, it can't be guaranteed with Linux to the same extent as it can with Windows. But if you have patience, and want to learn something about computers & software then Linux is a much better place to learn - just be prepared for it to take time.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I'm just wondering if any of you have given Linux a whirl at all?
Yes, I've got a Linux box on my desk at work.

I use it to run various servers that are written for Linux. It doesn't have a keyboard, mouse or screen - when I want to talk to it directly (rather than through the various proprietory protocols to the servers in question) I open up a telnet window on my Windows box, when I want to edit files on the Linux box I use a Windows editor (to be sure, it helps to pick one that knows about Unix line endings).

Actually I do sometimes connect a screen to it, to see why it won't boot, which it doesn't about three times out of four (but the opinion of the IT guys is that that's down to a hardware issue rather than Linux). As it's starting up thousands of lines of incomprehensible gobbledegook scroll up the screen, mostly containing the words "fatal error" ... but once it's started doing that I know it's booting OK so unplug the monitor again.

It works reasonably well (execpt for the booting problem which is probably hardware). Every few weeks something breaks in the networking software, and I have to get the IT guys to fix it (something to do with domain trusts, it needs a network admin password so I can't do it myself), but no big deal.

[Keef]

I've got a machine running Linux in my study. It's my previous desktop machine, now relegated to Linux tinkering box and fileserver. It's never switched off, hasn't crashed or misbehaved since I set it up, and works flawlessly.

It runs Fedora core 5, which seems to be totally stable - certainly far more stable and reliable than Windows on the main PC - and a lot faster, too.

It does have a keyboard and a (very old LCD) monitor, although the monitor is usually in standby mode and blank.

Linux is a bit harder to set up than Windows (or was for me, anyway, although there are those who will tell you I did it all wrong). Once done, it's excellent.

[bjkeates]

Not a regular user, but I've used Knoppix (http://www.knoppix.org) to save files to a USB drive on more than one occasion when the OS on the primary hard disk has got corrupted, won't boot and needs reformatting... does this count? I don't know much about Linux and needed help when using the command prompt but I loved the Knoppix GUI. When I reformat my other computer soon I'll look at dual-booting it with WinXP and Linux.

[scroggs]

I'd like to have a play with Linux. I even have a spare laptop to do it on, and a copy of MepisLite. Trouble is, the laptop - which used to be a W98SE machine - was experimentally upgraded to XP, and now it won't complete the boot-up procedure! It is a bit weedy - 400Mhz Celeron, 256mb RAM and 4 Gb HDD. I'd like - if I can just work out how - to strip Windows off the machine and try Linux just for a bit of fun. But can I format the bloody thing? I probably can, but I haven't worked out how....:ugh:

[rotorcraig]

I've got an Ubuntu Unix server at home to hold my mail, photos, music etc.

The wife & kids access it from their Windows PC, I rebuilt my PC as a Unix machine months ago and have had no reason go back to Windows since.

As others have said, it may take you time to get wireless drivers, graphics accelerators, etc. working and if you're not a hands on PC techy then you will probably need to find a friend who is to help you.

But once it's all up and working you will find it to be very reliable.


RC

[BOFH]

Linux tries me every day - but that's my job. :)

Having Exploder run at 20% on a dual CPU machine all day today is also my job. :ugh:

There will be frustrations whichever route you choose, If you care to pay for them, so be it.

BOFH

[Keef]

But can I format the bloody thing? I probably can, but I haven't worked out how....:ugh:

I had that a while ago. I used the old-fashioned method: a boot floppy with FDISK on it. I can't remember what Win version it was - probably doesn't matter.

Once I'd deleted the existing partition, I set the machine to boot first from CDROM (Press F1 or whatever at boot-up) and installed from a Linux CD.

I told it to configure for multiple boot, using GRUB. There are now 3 hard drives in there, and nine partitions with various stuff on them. Default boot is Fedora Core 5, but there are several other Linuxes. It's a 600MHz Pentium, and runs about as fast in Fedora as the main desktop running XP - that's a 3.2GHz. Such is the Windows "overhead".

[Telstar]

I found this interesting. I am a fairly average home computer user. I have never received any formal training, self taught. Use the computer for home use, photography, music, bit of video editing.

I am becoming more and more disillusioned with Microsoft products. It seems hard to believe that a company with this much of the market share, amount of money, amount of resources still puts out products with poor security and loads of bugs like Vista.

I am now certain after recent developments with Vista, and the huge expense of purchasing it along with extremely high system requirements required to run it, and my experiences with Apple after owning two iPods is that my next computer purchase will not be running on Windows.

I feel that it will probably be a Mac but now there is a very real chance of it being a Linux box.

I wonder how many other home users are thinking the same? Is the tide beginning to turn against Microsoft?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6506027.stm

Dell gives the go-ahead for Linux
Larry Ellison of Oracle stands in front of a linux poster
Large firms like Oracle use open source Linux software
Computer giant Dell will start to sell PCs preinstalled with open source Linux operating systems, the firm has said.
The second largest computer maker in the world said it had chosen to offer Linux in response to customer demand.
Earlier this year, 100,000 people took part in a Dell survey. More than 70% of respondents said they would use Linux.
Dell has not released details of which versions of Linux it will use or which computers it will run on, but promised an update in the coming weeks.
"Dell has heard you," said a statement on the firm's website. "Our first step in this effort is offering Linux preinstalled on select desktop and notebook systems."
Currently the company only offers Microsoft Windows on its computers, but sells servers running Linux.
Members of the Linux community welcomed the move.
The fact that Dell is offering a desktop with Linux is no surprise
Nick Veitch
Nick Veitch, senior editor of Linux Format magazine, described it as "significant".
"I think it sends a message in two ways," he said.
"One is that a major company is confident enough to be able to offer Linux preinstalled on a desktop - that sends a signal that Linux is usable to the average user - and I think it shows that there is a growing demand for an alternative to Windows."
'No surprise'
Microsoft is the world's largest software maker and its proprietary Windows operating system is found on nine out of every 10 personal computers.
Dell laptop, Getty
Dell currently only offers Windows software on its laptops
While companies such as Microsoft earn money by licensing and charging for use of their products, Linux code is freely available.
That means anyone can modify it or develop applications for it. As a result, there are many different types, or distributions, of Linux operating systems that offer different functionality.
As Linux is free to download and distribute, the exact numbers of users is difficult to quantify.
However, analysts believe that approximately 6% of computers users run Linux, similar to the numbers choosing Apple Macs.
Big business and governments, particularly in the developing world, are also starting to exploit the flexibility of open source code.
The UK Cabinet Office recently evaluated the operating system and approved it as a viable alternative to proprietary systems. Car manufacturer Peugeot has also rolled it out across its employees' desktop computers.
But until now there has not been a major computer manufacturer willing to preinstall Linux on consumer computers.
"The fact that Dell is offering a desktop with Linux is no surprise," said Mr Veitch.
"The surprise is that it has taken them this long."

[Mac the Knife]

Some of us switched quite a while ago......

I don't really have much of a quarrel with XP, despite its insecurities and quirks - my own installations, with a bit of care and feeding, have been very stable - but I really do have a problem with Microsoft's greed, arrogance and truly unpleasant and antisocial business practices.

arcniz put it very well in a previous thread.

<snip> "The net-net-net reason that history will not remember Bill Gates fondly is... that he used the early success of his company to capture and hijack the entire destiny of computing for a period of decades.. the echos will continue into the next century, for sure. In the process he directed a program of obfuscation, disruption and proprietisation of the whole of computing technology - for no purpose other than the financial and commercial benefit of Microsoft. This continues into the present day.

Of all the profit taken in by MSFT, only a tiny fraction - say ten or fifteen percent (of the net profit) has been used to actually make software more productive, more reliable, and more useful. The remainder of those vast profits applied to development have been directed to creating and amplifying methods for making present and future computer programs more dependent on technology owned or controlled by Microsoft. This leads to greatly inferior software, but software that makes its customers totally and perpetually dependent on MSFT for tools, methods, and applications that can only be used under the intellectual property rights controlled by MSFT. One can say much about why this is bad, but in the interests of brevity I will just sum up as follows:

Bill Gates did not single-handedly invent modern computing. In fact, he waged business warfare on other innovators and companies in the early days of computing to the extent that most were effectively prevented from operating in markets that Gates sought to control. The business practices of Microsoft, guided by Bill Gates, have deliberately, methodically, and unnecessarily wasted the time and diminished the efforts of every one touched by them. The social and economic cost of his self-serving (and largely unnecessary) actions has been to deprive humanity of (at least) hundreds of billions of productive work hours, expended for totally unnecessary and wasteful work by the planet's best educated and potentially most productive citizens... for no purpose except to serve the greed of Gates and his cohort. The effect is equivalent, in economic and social cost around the globe, to exterminating millions of people. No small beans. To make recompense for that He'll have to feed a great many orphans."

By all means get a Mac (they're brilliant), but with every passing day Linux (my machines run either Kubuntu or Mepis as "best of breed" distros) becomes an increasingly compelling (and significantly cheaper) alternative.

:ok:

[joe2812]

I run a Dell 9400 lappie...

If i'm honest i'd probably swap to Linux...



...if I knew how and wasnt scared of ballsing up the set up I have now!

Anything not MS must be good though. :ok:

[rotorcraig]

It'll be interesting to see what this does pricewise.

Dell don't need to licence M$ Vista and install a free Linix distro instead = cost reduction that can be passed on to the customer in part or in full.

Dell can't bundle loads of "limited trial period" products 'cos linux users don't need / want this rubbish = revenue reduction that will be passed on also?

RC

[slim_slag]

I run a Dell 9400 lappie...

If i'm honest i'd probably swap to Linux...

...if I knew how and wasnt scared of ballsing up the set up I have now!

Anything not MS must be good though. :ok:Just download the 6.10 version of Ubuntu, burn it to a CD, and boot it. Will not affect your windows at all and you can see if it 'just works'. I cannot see any point in replacing your windows with linux though, you have already paid for it and I am guessing it already does what you want. If you want to mess about, buy the components from a web store, build your own pc and stick linux on it. Make sure you do your research first though and get hardware that linux works on.

Dell can do this as they control the hardware and have the resources to make it 'just work'. Good for them, competition is always good, and I am sure it will put pressure on microsoft to bring down the licence fee that Dell pays.

I guess it all boils down to how much Dell pays for their windows licence, and how much of the savings they want to pass onto their customers, and how much to their shareholders.

I am sure Dell will use this as an opportunity to heavily brand the desktop, try and lock you into their services, and make more money off you in an innovative way. For Dell are just as bad as MS, Oracle, Sun and the rest of them. They all want to 'own' your desktop experience and make it difficult for you to use anybody elses software.

[Mac the Knife]

Good advice there from slim_slag

Microsoft will surely attempt to punish Dell in some way for this move. They certainly have a long history of gutting businesses that stray from the party-line. These companies work on razor-thin margins and even a few percentage points increase in the fee that Dell pays for its OEM Windows license could really hurt.

"I am sure Dell will use this as an opportunity to heavily brand the desktop, try and lock you into their services, and make more money off you in an innovative way. For Dell are just as bad as MS, Oracle, Sun and the rest of them. They all want to 'own' your desktop experience and make it difficult for you to use anybody elses software."

A very astute observation. Happily even GPLv2 makes this quite difficult. Of course Dell plans to make money from this and the GPL does not forbid profit at all - it only blocks certain kinds of exploitative behaviour.

Personally I'm not comfortable with the FSF's (Free Software Foundation) political stance [I'm more of an OSS guy myself] and thought that the proposed GPLv3 was ludicrously (and fatally) business hostile. The most recent GPLv3 draft seems to have eased off a bit and hopefully will allow the industry to successfully commoditise Linux on the desktop (as Dell hopes to do) while blocking an effectively proprietary Dell Linux.

While I'm a firm supporter of FOSS (I contribute financially and on various groups) and in particular of open standards (like ODF) I'm not that fussed by proprietary drivers like nVidia and I will buy and use proprietary Linux apps if they work better for me than the FOSS equivalents. Sometimes FOSS coders need a kick up the arse too!

:ok:

Mac

[Saab Dastard]

effectively proprietary Dell Linux

I have had the feeling that Linux has been teetering on the brink of the same problem that beset UNIX last century, when several proprietary flavours of UNIX evolved, making development, portability and interoperability a real pain.

On a different note, I recently tried an experiment to see if I could configure a laptop for work with Linux (Kbuntu) as the OS. Most things I could set up to work (after a fashion), but I was completely stopped by the VPN solution. Yes, I could get a VPN client, but the gateway enforces software compliance, and BlackIce is not available for Linux - yet (I know, it's in Beta, but a very limited Beta).

And while many of our corporate apps have been developed for browser-based access, they only work properly with IE6, not Firefox etc.

Still, it's about 80% there!

[Mac the Knife]

"I have had the feeling that Linux has been teetering on the brink of the same problem that beset UNIX last century, when several proprietary flavours of UNIX evolved, making development, portability and interoperability a real pain."

Linux can't become proprietary, the GPL blocks this absolutely. Dell cannot produce a proprietary Linux. What they MAY do is release binary (non-open-source drivers) to optimise Linux on their hardware. These would be unacceptable to hard-line open-sourcers but of little consequence to Joe User. They might also tweak the kernel to better cooperate with their drivers, but under the GPL any changes would have to be released as source code. The big Linux houses usually tweak the kernel to work better with their releases and this is perfectly legit so long as the changes are freely released and documented.

The sort of proprietisation that nearly killed UNIX just can't happen.

By its very nature GNU/Linux is a do-your-own-thing animal, but most coders/vendors are coming, often reluctantly, to the realisation that working towards a fixed set of Linux standards is the only way to go.

The Linux Foundation set up the Linux Standard Base organisation - http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/LSB - to encourage vendors to follow their guidelines.

"The Linux Standard Base delivers interoperability between applications and the Linux operating system. Currently all major distributions comply with the LSB and many major application vendors, like MySQL, RealNetworks and SAP, are certifying. The LSB offers a cost-effective way for application vendors to target multiple Linux distributions while building only one software package. For end-users, the LSB and its mark of interoperability preserves choice by allowing them to select the applications and distributions they want while avoiding vendor lock-in. LSB certification of distributions results in more applications being ported to Linux and ensures that distribution vendors are compatible with those applications. In short, the LSB ensures Linux does not fragment."

Actually mainstream Linux is quite rapidly evolving towards these standards.

Mac

:ok:

[seacue]

With MS ending support for Win2000, a place where I sometimes work is replacing the machines that run Win2000. They are all pretty old. There is a blanket contract with Dell. There are a number of hardware choices and one may choose either WinXP or Linux as the operating system.

The establishment forbids the use of VISTA on any machine connected to the in-house network for the time being. They expect to approve of VISTA "someday" after they have verified that the main in-house applications can be made to work correctly with it.

[Mac the Knife]

With the release of ntfs-3g v1.328 (March 28, 2007) Linux finally has stable read/write support for the Windows native NTFS filesystem. ntfs-3g has been extensively tested and there was no file corruption or inconsistencies. Most POSIX file system operations are supported, with the exception of full file ownership and access right support.

ntfs-3g is 20-50x faster than the commercial Paragon NTFS driver. Curiously, Captive NTFS, which uses the native Windows NTFS drivers, fails all benchmarks with file loss.

ntfs-3g is still unoptimised and further speed increases are likely. It does not yet support compressed or encrypted files, but that is on the way.

Binary builds are available for most ofthe mainline distros or you can build it yourself.

Main site - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/

Test details at http://www.ntfs-3g.org/quality.html#testmethods

FAQ at - http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#questions

Way to go guys!

:ok:

Mac

[mrsurrey]

Hi eveyone,

I just did a search on this and found that Dell has tried this before and previously took LINUX PCs off sale in 2001 becuase of low sales.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/08/03/dell.dumps.linux.idg/index.html


I'd love to use Linux, out of a bloody minded desire to break my dependance on Windows. But of course it worries me all the same, do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?

Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?

Cheers,

MrSurrey

[Mac the Knife]

Linux was a VERY different beast in 2001. I spent days getting Debian up and sort of working! I remember Dell's dabble and I'm not surprised they let it slide. Modern mainstream Linuxes are a world away from what it was then.

Best way to try it is to get hold of a live CD (which you can boot from), try it and see what you think. A live CD runs off the CD itself, doesn't touch you current HDD and although its pretty slow (as you would expect) will give you an idea of what its like and how it picks up your hardware.

"....do you think mainstream software will work seamlessly with it or are there issues that need to be taken into account?"

Windows software doesn't work natively with Linux - it's a completely different operating system. There ARE ways to get an increasing number of Windows applications to run but its still a bit of a fiddle. Linux comes with its own big bunch of applications for free to do pretty much anything you want (burn CDs, play music, email, office suite etc etc) and these are generally very compatible with the files/document formats that Windows uses.

Compatibility, especially for MSOffice documents, isn't perfect (complex documents often display differently and macros may fail), but this is hardly Linux' fault - Microsoft keeps their file/document formats a big secret to prevent people switching and to force you to go on using MS. But considering that everything is reverse engineered, the compatibility is remarkably good (and you can save in .doc/.ppt/etc. format so that Windows users can use your documents).

"Also I've always wondered how much PC makers pay Microsoft for their bulk purchases of Windows, seeing as you can pick up a PC these days for £200 how much of this do you think is the Windows licence?"

PC makers actually don't pay MS that much - FAR less than the cost of buying Windows in a shop. Still, there are enough of them to make MS very rich! But part of the agreement in their bulk purchase of Windows is a clause that says that all PCs they sell MUST have Windows installed - they're not allowed to sell PCs either with no operating system installed or with another OS. This dodge is one of the ways that MS has maintained its unlawful monopoly on operating systems and its stranglehold on the industry.

Linux is, can I say, "different" - modern Linuxes generally install seamlessly and for quite a few folks it just works "out-of-the-box" - for many a bit of tinkering is requires, but the reward for a few days messing around is a fast, flexible, stable OS that is very secure and works well on older hardware too.

Oh, and it's all FREE....

[slim_slag]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

[mrsurrey]

Thanks Mac the Knife,

I think I'll be supporting LINUX the next time I get a computer then, provided I can find a way to run Dreamweaver on it! It's great to see the project gaining momentum and if it can reach critical mass on the PC I guess there's little reason for people to turn back to Microsoft in the future?

Progress :)

MrSurrey

[Mac the Knife]

Here you go mrsurrey, Codeweavers, - http://www.codeweavers.com/main/ -who make Crossover Linux ($39), have supported Dreamweaver and Flash since 2003.

http://www.dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=5796

http://www.codeweavers.com/site/about/general/press/?id=20031027

Not free, unfortunately, but you get the ability to run an awful lot of other Windows apps and games as well.

:ok:

[mrsurrey]

Thanks a lot Mac the Knife! :} Goodbye Mr Gates :p

[MTOW]

I've just attempted to re-format a Maxtor HD that once contained a Linux installation. The system comes up with a error when I try to format the now unallocated disk space to either FAT32 or NTFS.

I vaguely remember that it is necessary to do a bit of fiddling with the boot sector to remove some Linux-related infor from the HD's 0(?) sector. However, I don't recall what it is I have to do.

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?

[rotorcraig]

Try the Micro$oft Support article http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314458

How to Remove Linux and Install Windows XP

SUMMARY

This article explains how to remove the Linux operating system from your computer and install Windows XP. This article assumes that Linux is already installed on your computer's hard disk, that Linux native and Linux swap partitions are in use (which are incompatible with Windows XP), and that there is no free space left on the hard disk.
Hope that helps.

RC

[matelot]

How did you install your Linux distro in the first place? If from a LiveCD, boot with the CD and use the included disk partitioning software (GParted or suchlike) to wipe and reformat to whatever you want.

If you can boot to Konsole, and understand zeroing a disk, you can try this:
[as root]

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda(b) conv=sync,noerror count=x

where x = number of LBAs

Maxtor = 320173056
WDC = 16514064

cylinders * heads * sectors

Of course you'll need the number of LBA's for your own HDD. Google turned it up for me easily, or you can work it out from your BIOS.

Pray what possessseth thou to want XP back? :p

[MTOW]

Many thanks to you all. I've now got it working.

[BombayDuck]

Right, here goes.

I want to give Linux a shot, but my hard drive space is a bit limited. So I'd prefer to play around with a Live CD version till I get my hands on a new HDD. So far I've heard of Knoppix and something called SLAX. I've also heard that Ubuntu (which seems to be popular) released their latest version (Feisty Fawn??!!) but it doesn't seem to be able to run off the CD directly, at least it does not say so.

So has anyone here tried a Live CD version, and if so which would you recommend?

Note: I'm not going to use it for anything serious - I just want to get my feel of something non-Windows without having to go and buy a Mac. Internet access and ability to handle MS Word and Excel files (OpenOffice, I guess) is all I need.

[seacue]

I have used two "Live CD" versions of Linux. One was Knoppix and the other Mepis.

Knoppix and Mepis have very similar sets of included software, as do most Linux distributions. QTpartid, a substitute for Partition Magic, is almost enough reason, in itself, to have a Live CD version of Linux in one's toolbox. It works with both Windows and Linux disk formats.

Mepis is described as a nicer face on Kubuntu (Ubuntu) and I agree that it seems more friendly than Knoppix. I haven't tried Ubuntu nor Kubuntu themselves.

I think you'll find more online info about Knoppix.

I regularly use Open Office with Windows XP and it also comes with most Linux versions.

[rotorcraig]

I use Ubuntu and find it to be very good. I very rarely find the need to use the kids Windows PC these days - have everything I need (including Open Office, Firefox browser and Thunderbird eMail) on my Ubuntu PC.

When I first installed Ubuntu they were on the "Dapper Drake" release which definitely came as a Live CD. I'm on "Edgy Edge" now and will upgrade to "Feisty Fawn" over the weekend. Not sure whether they've dropped the Live CD now - but if you burn it to a CD and reboot it will quickly become clear!

RC

[Jet II]

another vote for Ubuntu - found it the easiest installation for a 'newbie'
try it here (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD)

[BombayDuck]

THank you Jet II, looks like I'll give Dapper Drake a shot, pending of course more vehement recommendations from other Prooners :)

Breezy Badger, Dapper Drake, Feisty Fawn...

And they wonder why normal (boring) people think geeks are crazy! :}

[Mac the Knife]

Ubuntu (Kubuntu if you prefer a more Windows-like appearance - I prefer KDE to Gnome anyway) or Mepis.

I'm a Mepis guy me'self. Forums are better. Whole distro benefits from having Warren as the Fuhrer.

Welcome to freedom!

:ok:

Mac

[slim_slag]

Latest Ubuntu (feisty fawn, or 7.04 ) just came out of beta and comes as a 'live CD'. I think the final acknowledged probems were mainly hibernation/standby related. It's the first release that 'just works' with my latest motherboard. Hard drives are cheap, just install it on another disc and dual boot. Well worth playing with.

[izod tester]

Mepis has slightly better hardware detection capability than Ubuntu/Kubuntu in my opinion. Mepis also has multimedia capability as distributed , whilst Ubuntu and derivatives do not include the "non-free", as in proprietary, code such as mp3 codecs. So for a live cd linux taster I would recommend Mepis. Knoppix has more geek tools than Mepis and is therefore a better emergency toolset live cd than Mepis but the menu structure is a bit messy and potentially confusing. Mepis has an icon on the desktop to initiate an install to your hard drive whereas to install Knoppix to a hard drive partition you have to run the command "knx2hd" in a command shell.

If you do decide to install Linux on a hard drive partition at a later stage, then Mepis is still good until you may want to install several flavours of Linux on different partitions (I have 3, one for working use and 2 experimental). In that case the Mepis installer will only write the Mepis instance into the grub boot loader and ignore the others. You will then have to modify the \boot\grub\menu.lst to add the other instances of Linux, or run grub install again from a knoppix live cd

[rotorcraig]

Ubuntu claim to have addressed that in the latest release.

The Feisty Fawn / 7.04 Tour (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/7.04Tour) page includes a couple of updates:

Easy installation of multimedia codecs

Playing an MP3 or other media file just got a lot easier. If the required pieces are not yet installed, 7.04 will get the correct codecs for you, no more searching and no need for long and complicated instructions.

Easier install of proprietary drivers

The new Restricted Drivers Manager allow users to easily install and manage proprietary drivers for wireless and video graphics cards and other hardware that may not have completely Free drivers.
This is a departure from earlier releases - as you say, it used to be down to the user to manually install anything that was proprietary or licenced.

RC

[BombayDuck]

Just popping in to say that I'm posting this from Firefox inside Ubuntu's Dapper Drake LiveCD running off me computer! :ok:

So far so good - had to configure my network options - was wondering why the internet wasn't working and then had a Doh! realization. entered my local IP and default gateway and away she goes!

Now only if this thing would allow me to change from 640x480 to something less ghastly.... well, here goes some more tinkering!

Thanks one and all, and stay tuned for more silliness!

(Might even download Mepis tomorrow night and give that a shot too.... I love my DSL connection!)

[izod tester]

Downloaded Kubuntu 7.04 yesterday and just loaded into one of my experimental partitions. Attempted to play an mp3 file and Amarok (a multimedia player for those that may not know) put up a dialogue box asking whether to download the codecs required (good) but then hung, not responding (bad). So it appears that there is probably an error in a script or perhaps it is not finding the expected files in the scripted respositories.

I tried using automatix to configure the codecs, but the automatix2 script was not in the directory described on the automatix web site. So for now the automatic configuration of proprietary codecs doesn't work. Shame. Otherwise the kubuntu install provides a clean, an unconfusing desktop with a clear menu structure that provides one application for each commonly used pc activities except games - there are no games loaded. Additional applications, including games, can readily be added using the adept package manager, but for a taster of what linux can do I think I still recommend mepis before kubuntu.

[BombayDuck]

Is there any way of accessing your original hard drive from a LiveCD OS? Say if I wanted to play music from my hard disk while running Dapper Drake?

I don't think so, but since I am yet a n00b, I sit to be corrected. Of course I could load them on a USB drive and access the drive through linux, but that is just one option...

[Saab Dastard]

Is there any way of accessing your original hard drive from a LiveCD OS

Sure is - you need to mount the device to access it, but this is usually simple. I can certainly do so with Knoppix.

I'm sure that others with greater experience can give you more details.

SD

[Keef]

I started with Knoppix when it was the only "boot from CD" that I knew about. It's pretty impressive. If you have a dud Windows installation, it's great for recovering stuff you don't want to lose. I've given out several Knoppix boot CDs to folks who've asked my help to recover their stuff.

I've got an old PC here with Mepis, Fedora, (k)Ubuntu, Debian, Suse, and Knoppix on it. Mepis was probably the quickest install, and did very well at finding all my hardware. It did extremely well booting from the CD.

Fedora has been the most "competent" - more of the obscure stuff worked first time round with that. It is a little harder to set up than Mepis (in my experience).

Networking and sharing folders/files/printers is difficult with Linux - Fedora was best, Mepis tricky. I've sussed it now, but the utilities don't seem to do what they say on the label. Plain old text editing on the Samba config file sorts it.

To be honest, Ubuntu didn't do well on my machine. There wasn't much included software, and download/install took forever. Mine's not sure whether it's Ubuntu or Kubuntu now, and does wacky things.

If you're just starting with Linux, download the Mepix ISO, burn a CD of that, and boot from it. You'll be impressed.

If you decided to use Linux as a network server, go through the normal setup routine. If it works, you've won. If not, send me your smb.conf file and I'll send you back the Keef version.

[None of the above]

This afternoon I downloaded and installed Kubuntu and I'm using it now.
However, if my experience is anything to go by, it is likely that you will experience difficulty in connecting to the web.
In the past I have tried Suse Linux 10.0 which would connect to the Internet using the KDE browser but resolutely refused to do so when using Firefox.
As that was my preferred option I didn't pursue that distro any further.
I've also tried two versions of Ubuntu with no internet connectivity.
I'm using KDE at the moment but I suspect that if I try Firefox (as above) it too will fail.

Be prepared!

[Mac the Knife]

Can't say I've ever had any trouble with any distro (even Damn Small Linux and Puppy). Never had to do anything.

How do you connect? Dialup? ADSL? Cable?

[None of the above]

Good Evening, Mac..........

I use a Safecom SWAMR-54108 broadand router. I did consider bringing out of retirement the original ADSL modem that my ISP supplied and seeking out the necessary driver but didn't pursue it any further.
Carrying out both web and Distro Forum searches reveals that the problem is far from uncommon, and in many cases insoluble.

N o t a

Edited to add:

In the last few minutes I've installed Firefox which seems to be working fine.
Another of life's little mysteries!

[Keef]

With all the Linuxes on mine, I've not had a problem getting different browsers to work - if one does, they all do. Sometimes it takes a while to set up the connection to the router (it's all cabled or wireless LAN in my house).

Networking the different machines can be a challenge with Linux, although it's normally very simple with Microsoft (unfortunately also a bit insecure, but that's what firewalls are for).

[Tinstaafl]

I like Kanotix (www.kanotix.com) although unfortunately the distro is having some upheavals. It's a Knoppix based distribution with some good improvements and some really good scripts. Being Knoppix based means it's also a Debian based system so benefits from Debian's excellent package management system.

It has rather good hardware detection, a plethora of software and useful fora/forums if you have a problem. It's the only distro I've found that got my laptop's winmodem working automatically.

[BombayDuck]

Keef,

Thanks for your advice. I was reading up about Mepis last night and was very impressed. Decided to download it but after around 70% the website went down at the other end. Could not resume as I was forced to use IE's in built downloader, my Firefox has been messed up by Download Accelerator on uninstalling the latter. (If I wasn't in the presence of a chaplain here, I'd have cursed it :} ) I'm planning to give it a shot again, tonight.

No, my use of Linux will be limited to personal computing only, there will be no networking (in the LAN/WLAN/WAN sense), only the use of the internet through an ADSL line. So I guess I have no worries on that front.

But meanwhile will try to mount my existing hard drive from the Dapper Drake CD and see if I can get hold of data. As you say, will be most useful for data recovery. (Touch wood)

Now if only I could get it to run at 800x600.... Googling for a solution has not helped so far, tried to set it before installing, after installing, via the GUI and terminal both, but no luck.

[BOAC]

AS A COMPLETE BEGINNER with Linux, I have downloaded and run both Ubuntu and Knoppix(5). Of the two, K seems to be more 'intuitive' during boot.

However, try as I may, neither will recognise/see my wifi. Is the fact that I have disabled SSID and MAC limited it the reason?

[Keef]

Getting Linux to "see" WiFi is a bit of a black art. It will work but easy it ain't. I got my Linux PC happily accessing my LAN via WiFi - using a PCMCIA WiFi card: the PC has two PCMCIA slots - leftover from an earlier Jeppesen/Garmin GPS card writing setup.

What I'd do is to make it as easy as possible for it - turn on DHCP and SSID and all the rest, then get it working, then tweak.

I've not tried lately - next time I have a spare evening (June looks promising) I'll put the Mepis Boot CD in the laptop and see what happens.

[Keef]

So I put the Mepis CD in the laptop, and switched it on, and ten minutes or less later, here it is connected to PPRuNe using Firefox with NO configuring or anything else needed! I call that pretty good.

It's using the wired LAN, though. The next step (back soon!) is to try the WLAN.

Edit: no, it can't see the PCMCIA or the USB wifi devices. I don't think WiFi is built into the boot CD.

[BombayDuck]

Stoopid disk wont boot at startup. Yes, before you ask, boot from optical drive is enabled and is number one priority, wouldn't have got Dapper Drake running otherwise.

Maybe I have to download a new copy, but this one was off the VTech server which is listed on the website? :confused:

Oh well, another mirror will have to do.

[batninth]

I think I'll blame slim_slag :) - after seeing the comments on Ubuntu 7.04 in this thread I decided to go for broke & upgrade my own PC.

The good news Keef is that the new 7.04 saw my USB Wireless adapator & configured it automatically from the live CD - Wow!. Bad news is that once installed I had to manually configure it, but it seems to be working fine now. Compare that to Ubuntu 6.10 where it took me a week & a lot of compiling of code to make the device work so that at least is impressive, and dare I say even more than Windows XP could do.

The bad news is that whilst the 7.04 Live CD was more than happy co-existing with the XP partition, the install options were either to overwrite the XP partition or to overwrite the XP partition. OK, so with this level of wireless support I don't need XP now as a safe option to download code to, but I would have preferred if the options had worked correctly.

rotorcraig - the auto codec load seems to work (albeit not perfectly) if you have gstreamer configured - a big improvement. However the codecs I pulled down for mms support didn't work and froze my PC so I regressed to xine & manually getting codecs.

Overall though, Ubuntu 7.04 is a big step forward and I would suggest about as easy to install as XP SP1 was. I would definitely recommend it - it is all I have on my PC now :ugh:

Oh - and out of box internet performance is much better too

[BombayDuck]

Disregard previous! Posting this from Mepis 6.5 :ok:

Had a couple of problems once I told the comp to behave itself and book from drive (I think the bios has a liking for MS :rolleyes: ) - first time over it the monitor went blank with the power LED blinking, but the system was running under the hood as num lock could be toggled, and it responded to the three-fingered salute and rebooted :ugh:

Next time around, I told it to stick to 800x600 and 60 Hz and it worked like a charm. Nothing needed configuring. One glitch was that the taskbar (or equivalent) was blinking continuously, I have stopped it by locking it but dont know why it happened first off.

Still, This is much easier on the eyes than Ubuntu and its default settings, it seems to have a tremendous set of apps too. I'm off to explore :)

[BombayDuck]

Bad news - the sound does not work. After some serious hunting, I found out that there is no fix for my particular board. Honestly, without sound it is rather useless, so till there is a fix for that, it aint no fun.

Edited to add: The list of tools is impressive, with partition managers and likes. It even has an antivirus, though god alone knows why! Sadly, Berly crashed the system on launch, so I didn't get to see the eye-candy. Still, I liked the itnerface. And it gave me access to my existing hard disk very easily. So this will make a rather good emergency disk....

However batninth - you mention you got Fiesty Fawn running as LiveCD? maybe I'll try that next :)

[None of the above]

I'm running this installation of Kubuntu on a separate hard drive for evaluation purposes, ie: I disconnect the WinXP hard drive and plug in the Linux drive.
I've decided to keep Kubuntu by making the machine a dual boot job with two HDDs. Does anyone know if GRUB is included in the Kubuntu download?
I'm keen to avoid mistakes and don't really want to be faced with re-installing XP. Life is too short.

Ta,:ok:

N o t a

[batninth]

BombayDuck

It even has an antivirus, though god alone knows why!

It seems that the folks who have nothing better to do than write viruses to pain you & me are now looking to MacOS & Linux for their kicks:

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6059140.html

batninth

[izod tester]

Yes, the Kubuntu 7.04 installation will also install grub. You get the choice of whether to install it to the mbr of the first hd or not. I've never had a problem installing it to the mbr.

[None of the above]

Thanks for that IT (? )

I'll have a go at dual booting tomorrow or at the weekend. Just finding my way around the system at the moment. I've arrived at the age where thinking presents something of a challenge so it might be a little while until the system becomes second nature.

Thanks again,

N o t a :ok:

[Guern]

Anyone tried running it off a USB stick? I have a 2gb Cruzer.

Will it cock up XP?

[rotorcraig]

I'm now up and running with Ubuntu "Feisty Fawn" and doing very well with it.

With my previous "Edgy Edge" setup I had real problems getting the nVidia drivers for my Asus A7N266 motherboard configured correctly. Using legacy drivers I could get most things working, but I never did get Google Earth or streaming video on sites such as BBC News to be stable.

Upgraded to Feisty hoping that it would sort these issues out - it didn't. Struggled on for a couple of days and convinced myself that it was the A7N266's onboard GeForce2 video setup that Ubuntu could not handle.

Bought a new cheap video card (Tornado GeForce FX5200 for 30 quid), stuck it in the AGP slot - and hey presto everything now works absolutely fine.

RC

PS I dual boot with XP and have had no problems. Set up your NTFS partition as the first on the drive, and install XP into that. Then install Ubuntu specifying partitions 2,3,4 as Ext3 for Linux root, swap, data etc. The installation process should spot XP in the first partition and ask whether you want to set up GRUB for dual boot - say yes.

[Keef]

Once you've got the hang of dual-boot, and subject to hard drive capacity (I've got three big ones, all partitioned heavily, in the Linux machine) then you can install several different flavours of Linux and switch between them. Sometimes they change the "primary" Grub partition, but that's easy to suss out. Then you edit menu.lst to offer all the options, and off you go.

I've now got Mepis running via WiFi. The USB WiFi dongle didn't come with Linux drivers, and I couldn't be bothered to search for them. But the PCMCIA WiFi card was fine. A little tweaking using Kwifimanager, and the card saw the router. It just didn't ask it for a DHCP address, so no "connection".

ifconfig and iwconfig told me what the various devices are - the Wifi card is wlan0.
A root terminal, and the command dhclient wlan0 led to some beeping and twittering, followed by the message that it had connected and obtained DHCP address 192.168.8.10 - and off we go!

I'm liking Mepis more and more!

[None of the above]

Today's statement from Dell on the subject can be found here:

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/ideastorm/ideasinaction?c=us&l=en&s=gen

[Tinstaafl]

Not just Dell. Today one of the sidebar news items on Groklaw reported that Toshiba Italy is considering Linux for a range of their products.

[Telstar]

From the Times:

Microsoft in Linux warning

Microsoft has stepped up its campaign against free and open-source software by claiming that the Linux operating system and other popular open-source products infringe more than 235 Microsoft patents.

Microsoft general counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez made the claims in an interview with Fortune magazine, published yesterday.

"This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," said Mr Gutierrez.

"There is an overwhelming number of patents being infringed."

In a subsequent interview with the US business magazine, Microsoft chief executive Steve Ballmer pulled back from saying that it would pursue individual users of open-source software for royalty payments.

Mr Gutierrez's comments have surprised some, as Microsoft appeared to be thawing in its attitude to open-source software in recent years.

Last November, it entered into an agreement with Novell, a leading provider of open-source software, which both sides said would improve interoperability between open-source software and Microsoft's products, as well as providing assurances over patent issues.

Con Hennessy, chief technology officer with Irish open-source services firm OpenApp, described the Microsoft comments as "sabre-rattling" designed to sell more software through its relationship with Novell.

"If you did a real analysis, a lot of the Microsoft patents would be thrown out," said Mr Hennessy. "They are either really obvious or you would find that someone else had created the same thing before it."

Mr Hennessy pointed out that Microsoft holds the patents in the US and said that software cannot currently be protected by European patents, so Microsoft's threats would have no impact in Europe.

Microsoft itself has fallen foul of US patent law recently.

In February, a San Diego court awarded $1.52 billion in damages to Alcatel-Lucent after it found that Microsoft had violated patents it holds related to MP3 digital music technology.

[Mac the Knife]

But of course, they won't specify which patents GNU/Linux/OpenOffice is supposedly infringing....oh no.

Just noise and FUD, hoping to scare companies away from Linux.

"No, we really don't want to litigate, just make a deal with us and we promise not to sue."

Path-etic!

"Gimme $20 and I'll make sure your nice car's paintwork don't get scratched!"

Faced with major disinterest in their new soopa-soaraway Vista, MS have decided to start waving the big patent litigation stick to try and halt Linux. Demanding money with menaces used to be called extortion.

MS holds thousands of patents, most of them on matters so banal that the patents should never have been granted, like double-clicking a mouse or filling in a HTML form.

In the USA you can more or less patent anything in software, the patent system is so broken. The patent examiners have no time to search for prior art and few of them know enough about programming logic to know what they're granting but they grant it anyway. The status of software patents generally is untested in the US anyway.

Many of these patents are so broad that any one of us probably violates several of them a day when writing a letter!

Most of the patents that MS has scrambled to register in the last 5 years are laughable, like linked-lists (which have been around since pre-VAX days), so MS obviously hopes never to have to actually legislate their claims - it's just something to threaten people with.

What an admission of fear and lost confidence in their own product/s!

My advice? Ignore them and they'll go away (and good riddance!)

[JamesT73J]

Interesting development, along with the news that Dell is again offering XP on new machines, 'amid significant customer demand' (CNet 2007).

As for going over to Linux, it's a really interesting experience, even if you're just a general tinkerer. As mentioned above, I'd recommend a second machine, or a dual boot (not as horrible as it sounds).

When I tried Ubuntu and Debian (two different PC's) I really enjoyed learning something new, but you need to 'un-Microsoft' yourself. For instance, you can't just plug a memory stick or portable CD drive into your machine - you've got to learn how to get Linux to mount these devices, then configure it to do so automatically. Again, not as nasty as it sounds, with a little persistence and some good reference material.

Performance is also excellent.


James

[s2h]

Ubuntu
Does anybody know how well programmes like iTunes, etc run on UBUNTU OS, is there anyone who knows of anything that isn't compatible with UBUNTU, I am about to load it on my laptop and just wondering if something wont work, like my webcam for instance.

Cheers

[batninth]

s2h,
Linux, including Ubuntu, tends to have it's own versions of software rather than a Linux-ised version of something else - so you have to make the links or as JamesT73J said "un-Microsoft" yourself.
A good example is in media players - there isn't an iTunes binary for Ubuntu or any Linux. You could try running the Windows versions over WINE, or I would suggest looking at the various media players that are native to Linux - Rythmbox, Amarok etc and seeing how they stack up (Amarok seems to be a good iTunes alike for Linux)
I would strongly suggest registering on the Ubuntu forums and searching for iTunes there to see how many posts have been made on this subject. The Ubuntu forums are incredibly busy & useful (http://ubuntuforums.org/) - if this question hasn't been answered there, then post it & you're highly likely to get an answer, espcecially on if & how any licence rights could be migrated.
Best answer on your question is at: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=442491&highlight=iTunes

[Mac the Knife]

"[Microsoft] is no stranger to patent law disputes.

From April 2004 through to March 2007 the company paid

$1.25bn TO Sun Microsystems,
$536m TO Novell,
$440m TO InterTrust,
$60m TO Burst.com,
$6m TO private inventor Carlos Amado,
$115m TO z4 Technologies,
$74m TO Korean company P&IB, and most recently, $1.52bn TO Alcatel-Lucent

over patents allegedly infringed by Microsoft's software."

Infringe patents
Pay off the owners from your vast cashpile
Profit!

:yuk:

[batninth]

Calm down Mac,

Before you go too far down that track it is worth remembering that Microsoft is very acquisative. In that context what would be more useful is a break down of how many of the patent infringements came from products developed directly inside Microsoft, and how many from products aquired and subsequently developed.

Also I wonder how much has been paid by the other technology companies for similar patent infringements.

Knowing one of the patents my last company applied for, and how open ended it was, it would be quite easy to find infrigements against that patent as well - albeit that the companies doing it would probably be completely unware of doing so.

In summary, I'm not saying that Microsoft is blameless, but what I am saying is that patents can be easy to infringe without trying to do so deliberately, or that an attempt to produce something akin to an existing patent could then be liberally interpreted as an infringement (think AMD vs Intel here). I suspect in the numbers you quote as in the numbers for many, many technology companies there will be a mix of all three types of infringment.

[Richard Spandit]

I was teetering on the brink of losing Windows forever until my Linux machine stopped working (hardware problem) - it's about time someone developed a decent universal FS so we wouldn't have these problems.

I'm currently using a Mac and I don't even know what FS they use

[OzPax1]

This is why I like user friendly so much..! :ok:
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20071116

[bnt]

This reminds me of a blog posting I read here (http://ricksegal.typepad.com/pmv/2006/03/dark_spots_at_3.html), from a guy who woke up during a flight, to what looked like a reboot of the whole plane! :eek:

[squibbler]

Right, I'm done with Vista - it's going. Plan is to partition hard drive and have a dual boot XP/Linux system. I need to keep Windows on for gaming purposes only.

Now then: which distro? My last tinkerings with Linux were very hit and miss, possibly because I was trying to install it on a Sony laptop. Tried the most popular distros but there was almost always an issue with graphics, LAN etc. As a total noob I ended up editing command lines to get things working and it was just horrible. Now I have a home built desktop system (specs below) I've a feeling things might be easier.

Basically I'm looking for something that requires minimal tinkering - "works right out of the box" if you like. I'm leaning towards OpenSuse 10.3 based on a bit of research but every time I think "that's the one" I come across someone who thinks it's crap. Lot's of head scratching here.

If it helps I'd rather stick with a similar destop layout to Windows, so that would be KDE right? Also is 64bit worth a punt?

Any help / thoughts / input would be appreciated!

Merry Christmas all.

--------------------------

AMD64 Dual Core 3800+
2 Gb Ram Nforce4 Ultra mobo
XFX GeForce 7600GT
160 Gb Hd
CD/DVD writer
Onboard LAN, Sound

[Saab Dastard]

Ubuntu, or Kubuntu if you want the KDE desktop.

It's a very user-friendly setup.

SD

[batninth]

Squibbler,

I echo the good Saab - I've used Ubuntu for a long time and it pretty much goes out of the box. You can boot it off the CD & give it a testing without commiting to install. Only fly in the ointment is, in common with nearly all Linux distros, support for Wireless.

Batninth

[rotorcraig]

Try Linux Mint (http://linuxmint.com/).

It's basically Ubuntu redistributed with all the codecs that you will need to play MP3s, DVDs, etc.

RC

[shaky]

For what it's worth, I went for Ubunto and it worked right out of the box as you specified in your post.

I ran it as a live CD for a few weeks until I got some sort of familiarity with it and then installed it dual boot with my XP system. It installed absolutely perfectly and picked up my internet connection, wireless network,printer and all the other peripherals without any problems.

I'm becoming more familiar with it now to the extent that I have not used the XP option for some weeks now.

Highly recommended.

[Mac the Knife]

I'd also go for Ubuntu/Kubuntu. Ubuntu uses Gnome which is more Mac like, while Kubuntu uses KDE which is more Windows like. Both have adherents and advantages - Ubuntu/Gnome is certainly cleaner looking.

The incompatibilities and tinkering that used to beset Linux are now fewer than XP and a lot less than Vista:yuk:

Nevertheless, you'll likely find a few things that don't work as expected - be reassured, if you've met 'em so have other people and the solution is always googleable.

Mepis Linux http://www.mepis.org/ is another distro that is worth considering - I like it a lot

:ok:

Edited to add: There's a good summary of distros in the Inquirer today - http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/24/inq-guide-free-operating

[Keef]

I have a "Linux box" with three vintage hard drives and seven different distros, all bootable via Grub. I've been playing with them (and with Knoppix on DVD) for a few years.

Ubuntu/Kubuntu is indeed "easy out of the box" but I've not been impressed with the overall performance. If you want an easy life, it's the one to go for. You might find, six months down the road, that it gets frustrating because of the things it won't do.

Fedora is very clever - if you can put up with a little faffing when you first install it. It's the one I use for normal "work". It's extremely stable, and quite Windows-like in how things behave (double-clicks versus single-clicks and the like). If I had only one distro on the Linux box right now, that would be the one.

Mepis is clever, but has a blind spot over SCSI devices if you use any. I do, so that's the end of Mepis.

SuSe (I'm on 10.1) has not been good. It's OK when it works, but it has a habit of deciding it doesn't like my video card. The X-server then refuses to start and I'm in text-only mode.

Debian is simple, is the "Daddy" of several of the others, and has that superb package called Kpackage - an enormous list of all software available for Debian, with a "click here to install it". Other distros use Apt-Get or such laborious stuff for the same, and I long for a working Kpackage on those. Some claim to offer Kpackage, but it's only a very cut-down version that doesn't do the things the Debian one does. If you don't want to install new software on a regular basis, or browse to see what's new this week, then you won't mind. I find Kpackage compelling.

Slackware is, in my opinion, by far the most capable Linux distro. Sadly, it's also the most pernickety to set up. Once it's working, it's stunningly good. When I finally ditch Windows (probably when Vista becomes compulsory), I'll bite the bullet, do the extra bit of Geekschool, and switch the main machine to Slackware.

Several of the above play the "KDE or Gnome?" game. If you're going for dual-boot Windows and Linux, and have the hard drive space, why not set up two Linux distros - say, Ubuntu and Fedora, with KDE on Fedora and Gnome on Ubuntu. If you've been using Windows for years, I'd bet you'll find KDE easier. I don't get on at all with Gnome - must be the way my brain doesn't work.

You might need some "debugging" advice - particularly around Samba if you network your PC, and maybe also with file access permissions.

If you have a colour inkjet printer, you may have serious difficulty finding a decent driver for it (if at all). My Canon Pixma won't print from the Linux machine. It's a known "issue" - there may be a driver "any time now" but that's been the word on the street for about 18 months.

Oh - and if you are going to have more than one distro and also use the machine for e-mail, you can persuade Linux Thunderbird to use a common folder for mail regardless of which distro you're running at the time. I have a separate partition for mail, and all distros use the same one. You do have to install the Thunderbird programme in each distro, but then point it at the mail partition.

[FakePilot]

Gnome? KDE?

Pah. Gentoo and Blackbox. :}

[Mac the Knife]

Good analysis Keef

but, "quite Windows-like in how things behave (double-clicks versus single-clicks and the like)...."

ALL the distros I've tried allow you do decide whether you want single or double clicks - admittedly, on some the GUI setting for this is a bit tucked away.

Happy Christmas to one and all!

Mac

PS: Gentoo is for masochists. I certainly don't want to recompile all my apps everytime I run 'em! ;)

[None of the above]

I have a Ubuntu Linux PC and wondered if it is possible to dual boot it with another Linux OS on a second hard drive.

I've had Windows/Linux dual boot systems in the past, but never had a dedicated Linux box before. Boot managers are something of a mystery to me and not something I tangle with lightly.

Any ideas, Gentlemen, please?

Thanks,

N o t a

[Miraz]

Easily done, but there may be other ways to achieve the same ends.

Why do you want to do this?

You can run another Linux kernel/distro within Ubuntu without needing to reboot if you just want to explore another setup.

[Saab Dastard]

Yes you can dual boot.

You might also want to explore a VM or try working off an instance that boots off a CD.

As Miraz says - what do you want to achieve?

SD

[None of the above]

Thank you, Gentlemen,

What do I want to achieve?
Well, the box is an experimental only PC and I wanted one stable system and the option to try various other Linux distros, hence a dual boot set up.
I'm not sure if it is a case of my intense scientific curiosity at work:O, or simply an inability to follow the old principle of 'working well, leave it alone!'

As suggested, probably best to try alternatives that boot off a CD.

Thanks chaps,

N o t a

[Keef]

Yes, it's easy.

There are two ways to do it. One's Grub, and one isn't ;)

I use Grub. Most of the Linux installers will allow you the option of adding Grub at the same time as you install the distro. It will then find your other installations and set itself up to boot them when wanted.

You can edit the Grub "menu.lst" file to add/delete individual boot options, change the sequence, or start a particular one after a certain time interval. That's handy if it's also a remote server or some such - after a power cut, it will come back up in the default distro.

My "Linux experimentation" PC has seven different versions of Linux at the moment - all listed for 10 seconds at start. Pick the one wanted, or after 10 seconds it's Fedora 7.

If you go for Grub, make a "boot floppy" too, just in case you edit the menu.lst and get it wrong ;) When the first hard drive in the Linux PC died (the one with the Grub config), I could boot from floppy and run Fedora, which happened to be on hard drive 2.

[izod tester]

I agree (mostly) with Keef, although I only have 5 flavours of Linux installed at the moment.

Unfortunately, not all Linux distributions will put all of the available Linux instances into the Grub menu, in particular, Mepis doesn't - it just puts itself and Windows (if there is a windows OS installed) into the /boot/grub/menu.lst file.

It is simple enough to use a live CD such as Knoppix to update the grub menu.lst after a mepis install so that you can see all of the Linux distributions though.

[None of the above]

Thanks Keef and Izod.

Dedication above and beyond the call of duty.
Seven and five different versions, respectively?
My word. I think I'll settle for two - max!

N o t a:ok:

[Keef]

Izod speaks sooth.

You will need to learn how to set up a menu.lst file. The good news is that it's not hard.

Some of the distros insisted on setting up their own new Grub folder - Mepis was one of those. In the end I sorted it by putting a menu.lst on each partition with a Linux distro on it. The knack lay in finding out which partition was the real Grub boot one. With the same menu.lst in all of them, it doesn't matter.

If a new distro changed the one already there, I could edit the relevant bits of it and put that into the "common" one.

The format of the instructions in menu.lst is slightly different for different distros - if you want a copy of mine, say the word and I'll post it here or e-mail it. It covers Debian (stable and unstable), Fedora 7, Mepis, Kubuntu, SuSe 10, Slackware, and Windows XP.

[Miraz]

I'd suggest using VMware server to play with the other distros

It is all nicely packaged up for Ubuntu, it should be listed in the Package Manager so the whole installation is merely point and click.

Then you can run multiple copies of Linux/Windows/whatever takes your fancy

[bnt]

Another possibility is the Xen virtual machine system, which is the Linux native solution, available for Ubuntu in the standard distributions. Haven't had to use it myself, yet.

[Keef]

The advantage of Grub is that it doesn't depend on any one of your distros. It will start anything, running as "native". It can be edited from anything that can access the partition it sits on. If that fails, it can be run from a floppy.

When one of my Linux HDs died, it was (of course) the one with the boot stuff and Grub on it. I dug out the Grub floppy and was up and running with the other two HDs in a minute or so.

[kotakota]

Can anybody please help ?
Just been given dinky little laptop ASUS EEE PC 4G , which has Linux installed rather than XP .
If the local Wireless I/net is unencrypted , it works a treat , but if encrypted I cannot get connected even with correct Key entered .It goes to 'Pending' and stays that way.
Only thing I have noticed is that it only asks for key once , whereas XP usually asks for key twice.
Handbook gives instruction for converting to XP with M/soft disc etc - is this the only way out ?
Thanks.

[green granite]

These links may help you (or not)
LinuxPlanet - Tutorials - Linux Wi-Fi Works With wicd - wicd Linux Wireless (http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/6527/1/)

Linux Security for Beginners - Wireless Security on Linux (http://www.linuxtopia.org/LinuxSecurity/LinuxSecurity_Wireless_Configuration_Linux.html)


Wireless Tools for Linux (http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Jean_Tourrilhes/Linux/Tools.html)

[kotakota]

Thanks green granite , the first one looks good , and I will hand it over to my computer wizz son when I get to UK on Thursday .

[LH2]

Posting from memory as I don't have my dinky little unit at hand, but right click on the connections icon (bottom right, looks vaguely like two computer screens if not connected, or shows a green power meter kind of thing if connected), then click on "connections" something or other (edit connections?), go Refresh if needed, then click on your desired connection and go Connect. The net result of this is that it should bring up the password input dialog--if you already know how to get to that, then do it the way you're used to.

Once you've got the password dialogue, it's really easy, all you do is type in your password. If you've typed it in correctly, then below your password input box you should see a message saying something like "valid WEP password entered" or some such, if you don't get anything, then change the encryption type option from the selection list (I only have two options, it's either one or the other)... that should bring up the aforementioned message if you've selected the right encryption type. Then you accept the dialogue and wait for it to connect. Click on "Details >>" to see if it's doing anything if it takes a long time.

HTH. I'll try to update a bit latter when I have access to my unit.

[Saab Dastard]

One tip - I find it useful to have the key on a USB stick, so I can copy and paste it rather than (mis)typing it!

Given that the connection works when no encryption is used, I wonder if the problem is to do with a mismatch between what the Wireless Access Point (WAP) is configured with, and what the EEE is set up for - e.g. WEP vs. WPA or WPA2.

To state the obvious, the client must have the correct settings for authentication type (WEP / WPA), the encryption type (AES or TKIP) and key provision (Open or Shared for WEP, WPA or WPA-PSK - pre-shared key - for WPA) to match the WAP settings.

Also a common problem is that some WAPs can be set up with a password that generates the WEP / WPA key, but you have to put the key into the client, not the password - if you see what I mean.

SD

[FirmamentFX]

Hi guys,

I come from an Win 95/98/2000/XP background. I am looking at spending a couple of weeks trying out Linux for some aspects of my work.

The applications I will mainly be using are Autodesk Maya and MatLab. My graphics card is NVidia.

Can anyone recommend a distribution of Linux that would be good for me? I am not averse to tweaking and command lines, but would like to spend most of my time in a GUI.

The biggest thing for me is that I need to triple boot this system - Windows XP, Windows XP x64, and Linux. I don't care what order I install the systems in, but I need a decent boot loader for the Linux system (I used a freeware distro briefly a couple of years ago and the install routine was hideous - it asked me to set various directory paths, but with NO explanation as to what those paths were...).

I'm not a computerphobe, but I do need things to be reasonably user friendly! ;)

Any advice much appreciated.

Many thanks,

Martin

[green granite]

For what it's worth I use (and like) SUSE which has quite a good gui, but I believe Ubuntu is the one recommended to try out for the first experience. Both can be downloaded off the web.

[FirmamentFX]

Many thanks green granite - I will give SUSE a look.

M

[Saab Dastard]

If you google the application and linux you should find the official line about what distros have been tested / certified or are formally supported for each application.

What distro you go for may depend on the level of compatability / support you actually need.

Fedora, Red Hat and Ubuntu would be other candidates.

Regarding boot order - you should always load Windows first, as XP is not considerate of other OS's!

I would suggest XP 32, XP 64 then Linux as the install order.

I assume you are au fait with file system selection - NTFS is still not officially and reliably writeable under linux.

SD

[green granite]

You can also, just to play with it for a while, down load 'virtual box' and install it in windows and then install linux in that, it gives you a chance to play with it without altering your current set up, and you can switch between them without re-booting.

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

Here's my £0.02, all its weight thrown behind Ubuntu - although on my rig I prefer Matlab Windows based as some crucial toolboxes used to lack Linux support and even if they worked now, don't fix what ain't broke. After saying bye to the venerable but aging Gentoo, we (is I & colleagues) migrated to a variety of systems, the favoured setup proving to be Kubuntu as a virtual machine in Sun VirtualBox, running on top of Vista or Mac. It's actually a very smooth running combo, with full networking and sound and bells and whistles one can only desire, and the switch between the two systems takes as much as a keystroke.
Even if you prefer the separate boot option, I recall that while installing Kubuntu, it offered to install as a standalone system. I'd be interested to see it work, do post your experience if you decide to go for it :ok:

[twiggs]

I would also recommend trying the distro you choose virtually, and I believe Sun VirtualBox is the best choice for Linux rather than MS Virtual PC.

Ubuntu can be run from the Live CD or another good way to try it with complete functionality is installing it as a program within Windows.
Just insert the CD or run the iso on a virtual drive within windows and install.
Doing it this way means if you are not happy with it, you can just uninstall using add/remove programs.

The GRUB boot loader is very good and will handle all your os's better than The XP one.
There are some apps that can be installed in Ubuntu to control GRUB if you need to modify it without having to use a command line.

You will not be able to run all Windows programs in Linux, even using Wine, which is a Linux program designed to run Windows software.
It's often trial and error, but it is a good learning experience.

[Keef]

The problem with Ubuntu is that it is very "prescriptive" about what it will let you do.
I found it frustrating after years of using Debian and Fedora. It kept telling me "No, you aren't allowed to do that". In the end, I stopped using it.

If you want flexibility and the option to do different stuff, and provided the software you want to use supports it, I'd suggest Fedora as the most capable and flexible.

I run several other distros on my "Linux toy" - Debian is friendly, Mandriva is good, SuSe is OK, Slackware is brilliant but needs more "geek input". Knoppix has saved my bacon a few times, but is essentially "Debian run from a DVD".

As SD says, while some distros can read and write NTFS, that's a high-risk scenario. Keep 'em separate!

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Hi chaps. I admit I am completely new to Linux and now have an issue with my Eeepc.

Just downloaded and installed the latest updates, one of which was for Mozilla Firefox. After install I restarted the computer and can no longer run Firefox and so can't access the net on that laptop.

The error stated is:

<toolbar item id="search-container"title=&searchitem.title;"------^

Its an XML parsing error:unclosed token location blah blah blah

Would really appreciate any help. Is it like windows where you can uninstall a program and then install? If so how do I effect this if I can't open a browser?

Apprecaite any help thanx

Fowlup

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Hmmm - maybe (just maybe) I'm not the dummy I thought I was. Solved it. Got onto the mozilla website where installation instructions existed. Not exactly ideal instructions to the linux newbie but it worked....... Just adopted the standard philosophy of reinstall. What confused me intitially was that "add remove software" in linux doesn't exactly mean that!

[green granite]

It took me a quite a while to actually get a downloaded program to install in suse and I'm still not totally sure how to do it correctly.

[Keef]

'Tis a different skill set from Windows, and there are many variant ways of doing it.

The easiest is kpackage, which comes with Debian and its siblings.
Yum and Yumex (Fedora) ain't bad.
With those, you pick what you want from a list, click "Yes" a couple of times, and it installs. Usually it tells you that you need another 45 packages you didn't know about, but it will do them all for you.

The rest get progressively harder and more pernickety.

The real man with hairs on his mouse uses the DOS 1.1-like command set - with
./make-install "gee.whiz." #Fred $Nerk /a .../b $config-all
(or something very like that - it's a while since I felt so masochistic as to try).
One error, and it throws up its hands and you start again.

Suse, in my experience, is about in the middle.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Thanx guys - gonna try kpackage and see how it goes!

Cheers!

[rjtjrt]

Is there any GPS Mapping Software for Linux?
I'm thinling of something like Oziexplorer or Fugawi but for Linux.
John

[Shunter]

Have you tried running them with wine, or Crossover? I've had both Memory Map and Navbox running on SuSE with no problem.

There are a few native apps, such as GPSdrive (http://freshmeat.net/projects/gpsdrive/) which may also be worth a look.

[rjtjrt]

Shunter
Thanks for the help. I do not have Linux at the moment but am considering buying an eepc and using it as a moving map display in cockpit. Thus Oziexplorer on Crossover/wine should be a good solution.

[Mac the Knife]

"Ever since I was a young boy
I must have played them all.........."

Red Hat, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, SuSE, Knoppix, and more but Mepis always stood out.

Hand crafted by Warren Woodford the newest Mepis 8.0 is just plain the best Linux distro I've ever used.

KDE on Debian Lenny with thousands of little tweaks to make it just work like it should.

Smooth as a tomcat pissing on glass

Mepis Linux: MEPIS | Now Shipping Version 8.0 (http://www.mepis.org/)

Worth buying the DVD (shipping very quick)

:ok:

Mac

[Tinstaafl]

I've preferred Debian based distros for years. For the last couple I've used Kanotix & then Sidux. The APT package management works well to resolve dependencies.

On the other hand, my wife's laptop works well with Sabayon, a Gentoo derived distro. Portage is also a good package management system with the advantage of being able to install from source with your own compilation optimisations

[gas path]

Thanks for that:ok: I'm about to give it a go. I have ubuntu on a HP compaq 6720s laptop. Yep! it was Vista and it was crap, I tried to load XP Pro and it threw a fit due to some hardware issue. Ubuntu no problem at all, picked up all the hardware and connected wirelessly ok!
Now running the 'disc sanitizer' ready for a play with Mepis 8.0:ok:

What's the advantage with the DVD over a download onto CD... :confused:

[bnt]

The advantage of a DVD? Not having to download hundreds of megabytes of stuff, including much you will never use. It's a non-issue if you have a fat internet connection.

As of last weekend I am officially Linux-only at home, with this notebook and an AMD64 desktop both running Ubuntu 9.04. I could only think of one Windows application that I use that has no Linux version or equivalent, and that's a game (Guild Wars) that I got running under Wine.

(The desktop still has its Windows installation accessible at boot, in case I need to get to a program to convert data or something, but disk will eventually get pulled out and turned in to a NAS disk.)

[rgbrock1]

Mods,

I see a Mac corner and plenty of Windows-related threads. I'm sure there are enough Linux users out there (at least I hope so) which might support the creation of a Linux Corner, eh?

[Michael Birbeck]

I second that!

[rgbrock1]

OpenSuSE or Mandriva. Both nice for messing with under the hood.
Ubuntu is very nice too but somewhat restricting.

[mixture]

bash-3.2$ find . -name "linux-corner" -print
bash-3.2$
bash-3.2$ echo "what do we want ?"; echo "linux-corner"; echo "when do we want it ?"; echo "NOW"

:p

Not sure how popular it would be though, I'm not fussed either way.....Macs rule ok !

P.S. Strictly speaking, you should not discriminate against BSD users either !

[rgbrock1]

Mixture:

I think it might be more popular than you think. I'm sure there are some good ol' Linux users out there lurking on these forums!!!!

[Saab Dastard]

Well, that's 3 so far - and I'm sure that Keef would be keen.

Need quite a few more for it to be viable, though.

SD

[Keef]

I was an enthusiastic Linux user. I spent several years learning all the niceties of filenames starting with . and modprobes and the rest. I'd got my Linux machine able to boot ten different distros, on four hard drives. GRUB was my friend. I was coming to the conclusion that when Win XP died, I'd switch to either Fedora or Slackware. I'd also set up a couple of friends with Linux, and they were learning the refinements of Ubuntu, which somehow (we never did suss it) transmogrified to Kubuntu.

Then my video card died and was replaced with a later model from the same manufacturer. Only one of the ten Linuxes would work - the rest reported incomprehensible errors. Clearly, a new video driver was needed, but after several hours of fruitless searching to find the right one and how to install it, I started the device in Win XP from an old partition. That worked, told me which video driver it wanted for proper GUI operation, and off we went.

I loaded the RC version of Win 7, and that worked "out of the box". It was a lot faster than XP - and nearly as fast as Linux. My dalliance with Linux ended there.

I've been told that I should have persevered harder, and that anyone worth his salt could easily fix a Linux video driver mismatch. When I asked on a couple of fora how to do that, I was told I'm too stupid to be allowed out, which I think meant they didn't know either.

It's a very clever system; there's lots of brilliant software, all free; it's capable of almost anything - if you have the patience. I don't have that much life left to me.

Enjoy the Linux thread; I will look in from time to time but probably not participate.

[rgbrock1]

Thanks Keef. Yes, you could have fixed the video card problem in Linux: it's not that difficult. (Probably a bit more so than in Windows though.) Most up-to-date distros
fix such issues quite readily though.

As for Ubuntu. Kubuntu, or whatever they call it, is Ubuntu with the KDE GUI environment as opposed to Ubuntu which uses the Gnome GUI. It's merely a matter of choice with nothing different under the hood, mostly.

[Keef]

Problem was, the naughty distros dumped me out at a "command prompt" with a stream of error messages. I knew what they had to be about, but many hours of searching failed to identify the right filename to download. I suspect the right driver file and a modprobe or two, plus some editing of the X-server config files would have made short shrift of it. As ever, knowing how makes it a ten minute job. I didn't know how, and couldn't find anyone who did.

That was about six months ago; since then, I've used Fedora 8 (the one that carried on working) several times - it's the only thing in my study that I can get to talk to the Cisco modem/router.

[rgbrock1]

Keef, if you ever tire of Fedora you might want to check out OpenSuSE. It's one of the few distros I have experience with that works "out of the box". (I bet it would even work from the get-go with your Cisco router). It's clean, tight and very intuitive. It's my personal belief that OpenSuSE would even give Mac OS X a run for its money were it more widely accepted. I've also swapped out numerous pieces of hardware under OpenSuSE and it located and loaded the correct driver, seamlessly, 99.9% of the time.

But Fedora is nice as well. it's used by Red Hat to flesh out their Red Hat Enterprise Linux offerings! (Sort of like OpenSuSE which is used to flesh out Novell's SuSE Enterprise Linux offerings.)

[Michael Birbeck]

You are right Keef. It will always be things like firmware or the drivers that let Linux down!

[rgbrock1]

Correct Michael. But the Linux community in general does a very admirable job of keeping up with the latest and greatest firmware and/or driver issues. Remember, most firmware and drivers come from the OEM's. And until they readily open their code, or provide their own..... Linux users will always be playing catch up. Thankfully that's slowly changing in our favor. But it still has a way to go.

[Guest 112233]

Please see the "Who broke or What happened to the internet" thread.

The history of end user OS developement has for reasons of democracy of use (Unix nerds out there prick up your ears please) steadily removed the user learning curve from the process of using the interface of the increasingly complex operating systems -

With very good reason.

Unix is in the earlier stages of doing this. I'm speaking as the very happy user of a Ubuntu 9.XX netbook, that's just as easy to use for the end user, in a home networked environment, for a Tyro user, as a WIN box - However as an example, printer support is an examplar of a barrier - SU - Super user do ! thats a bit hard for the average WIN enabled user. Unix will become, once manufacturers commit themselves; to the process of developing drivers a proper universal, scaleable operating sys available to all. I am a convert (no offence intended Keef) to its capabilities in a user friendly form. A unix / linux corner please.
PS - Running MP3 files is no longer a No No.

CAT III

[Mac the Knife]

I'll third and fourth that!

Call it REAL operating sustems.

(Currently messing around with OpenSolaris and rather liking it)

:ok:

Mac

PS: Don't take too much notice of our dear friend Keef's experiences, he seems to experience the most arcane difficulties that even my varied class of neophytes find hard to duplicate.

[bnt]

Here's another one who likes the idea - I've had Ubuntu on my netbook exclusively for well over a year now, with intermittent use before that. I'm not wedded to Ubuntu, but I've liked the Debian system and application management methods for years, and Ubuntu puts a friendly face on them. With the latest version, hardware support has been flawless too.

[Bushfiva]

Given the forum name is Computer/Internet Issues & Troubleshooting, I can imagine the Linux corner right now.

Q: "This bit might not be working, I can't believe this bit of my beloved Linux distribution is borked, it must be my fault, please help."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using B."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using C."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using D."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using E."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using F."

A: "That's 'cos you're using disribution A, whereas you should be using G."

Q: "I just changed from A to B, because under the idiot distribution A, one bit was borked. Anyway, this bit might not be working, I can't believe this bit of my latest beloved Linux distribution is borked, it must be my fault, please help"


MUCH more variety than "That's cos you're using Windows, you should use a Mac." It should run and run.

[Mac the Knife]

Bushfiva

:}
:bored:
:8
:E

:ok:

Mac

(Isn't that half the fun of it?)

[Shunter]

Quite happy to chip in to any Linux "corner". Spent best part of 10 years implementing open source solutions before ascending to management and would always recommend it for server solutions over Windows Server (which is pretty much a contradiction in terms).

It's amazing how companies start raising eyebrows when you point out they could easily surive with 2 good Linux techs @ £40k each instead of 8 average Windows grunts @ £20k each.

[Keef]

One of the ten distros on the "Keef Linux learning box" was SuSe. The icon was, as I recall, a green blob. It was a bit slower than Fedora on the tests I did. It couldn't recognise/handle the SCSI card with the CDRW, the DVD drive, and the scanner and wouldn't network with the other machines (yes, I know how to set up Samba - I think it was the particular network card that it didn't like).

I'm all for a Linux thread - the only worry is that there's a lot of Linux "out there" and it could grow exponentially. Mind you, if it's a "no flaming" thread - unlike some of the Linux forums I inhabited - that would be a plus. It seemed on one or two of them that anyone who had a problem he couldn't fix wasn't safe to be out alone. Some, of course, were excellent.

I've got copious notes down in the Essex house of all the distros I loaded, what worked and what didn't, and what it took to get stuff to accle. About four shorthand notebooks full, in fact.
In comparison: the Win 7 notebook is about ten pages - for two machines - and most of that is the list of software to reinstall and stuff to copy back after wiping and reinstalling from Beta to RC1.

The Linuxes that worked best for me were Fedora (very stable and capable) and Mandriva (very close second). I used Fedora in preference to the others, and had v7 v8 and v9 installed on separate partitions, to compare them.
Debian was good but crashed more often; Slackware was very impressive but the most inscrutable of the bunch by a long way - true geek stuff. Ubuntu/Kubuntu wouldn't let me do stuff - very much the "nanny" distro. SuSe wouldn't see several of the peripherals. Mepis was OK but no SCSI. Knoppix (on a CD/DVD) saved my and friends' bacon on Windows machines several times, and I always carry a copy in the laptop bag. The others were "Yeah, fine, but.."

Since only I used the machine, I didn't particularly want to have to keep going through all the "SU" stuff to be able to do anything on it. I got thoroughly exasperated having to type the SU password several times per minute on some distros while doing stuff to the config. Surely, I reasoned, it can remember that it's me and I'm SU. Some could, some couldn't.

Then, when the video card died and was replaced, only Fedora 8 still worked. All the others crashed out with long X-messages. I don't know what was different about the setup in Fedora 8, but that's the one I've kept for writing the Cisco device and for backups from the Windows machines.

[mixture]

instead of 8 average Windows grunts @ £20k each.

-and-

Windows Server (which is pretty much a contradiction in terms).

No wonder you are experiencing difficulties with Windows server if you're only paying your SA's £20k !

[Mike-Bracknell]

I'm with Mixture here. Anyway, why would you want 8 Windows SAs? I've never worked with more than 5 others, and that's on massive enterprise companies.

I've also got several Windows servers with uptimes that would shame many a Linux box :8

[NRU74]

Linux -Yes please in the hope that someone will help me on how to instal a dongle on my Linux equipped ASUS 701 -I've spent hours [fruitlessly] trying.

[Saab Dastard]

OK, I'll rename this thread "Linux Corner" and see what happens.

I'm not going to sticky it - and I'm going to un-sticky the MAC Corner thread, so that they will stand or fall by their usage.

SD

[mixture]

'm going to un-sticky the MAC Corner thread

Meanie ! :(

[rgbrock1]

NRU74:

What is your problem with installing the dongle and what Linux distro are you using?

I'll assume that your dongle is of the bluetooth type? If so you need to get the hci_usb_kmp_dae driver. Use your distros "install software" util to get it as the installation utility will find all the dependencies needed for the driver module.

[NRU74]

rgbrock1
Thank you for your interest
The EEE700 appears to be loaded with Ubuntu
I have a HSDPA K3565-Z 3G Dongle which I want to use in France but want to load it whilst in the UK
I've spent ages on the Betavine forum [for example]
I get so far thru' the instal process -starting with the Ctl-Alt -t bit- but after a while always fail.
I need the really 'noddy' guide on how to download whatever in order to get this dongle to work
I suspect the easiest way is to buy XP for it
NRU

[rgbrock1]

NRU:

You need to download the new wvdial.conf for the HSDPA stuff to work !!!

I use Gentoo Linux which compiles everything from source. As a result of things might be a bit different but we can work around it. Firstly, we need to get Linux to detect your card, start your PCMCIA services - normally this can be done using (most distros do this for you):

Code:
/etc/init.d/pcmcia start
Before you insert your card, open a console/switch to an open console and as root run the following

Code:
tail -f /var/log/messages
This will allow you to "see" what Linux is doing http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif

Right, now insert your card and you should see some stuff happening. I have included log traces of what the two cards "look" like under /var/log/messages in the attachment section.

If you see only the option_insert_nousb.txt messages using an option card run the following command:

Code:
modprobe usbserial vendor=0x0af0 product=0x5000
If you had to run the above command, you will need to save the vmc_g file attached into /etc/modules.d

Now we need to find out where your card is - you will see in the messages where the card is - /dev/ttyS? for novatel or /dev/ttyUSB? for option

Code:
find /dev/ | grep ttyS
Should show /dev/ttyS0 or /dev/ttyS1 for a Novatel Card.

Code:
find /dev/ | grep ttyUSB
Should show /dev/ttyUSB0 and USB1 and USB2 for an Option Card. (or /dev/tts/ttyUSB0-2 for udev)

Once we found that, we need to change /etc/wvdial.conf to match your settings, attached is my working wvdial.conf. Now we can start dialing up

For Novatel:

Code:
wvdial novatel internet 3gonly 384k
For Option:

Code:
wvdial option internet 3gonly 384k
If you need to send your PIN, add "pin" infront of all the commands, e.g.

Code:
wvdial pin novatel internet 3gonly 384k
Once your connection is up - surf away http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif Now you can setup things like KPPP and Gnome's Modem Lights to do your dialing for you.

Extra Steps for the HSDPA card:

Download the kernel module from the link below. Extract it to a directory somewhere safe. If you are *still* running the 2.4 series of kernels, you need to change the Makefile to reflect this.

Compile the driver using the following commands:

Code:
make clean && make
Once this is done, run the following command to insert the module into the kernel

Code:
insmod nozomi.ko (2.6 Kernel)
insmod nozomi.o (2.4 Kernel)
Once you have done that, use the following command to setup the connection:

Code:
wvdial hsdpa
Extra steps for the Novatel U740 Card

Until I get time to update the files etc. our Novatel Linux Users out there can just type this command before using the normal dialing command:

Code:
modprobe usbserial vendor=0x1410 product=0x1400
OR

Code:
modprobe usbserial vendor=0x1410 product=0x1410
Using lsusb will show you the Vendor and Product ID's or cat /proc/bus/usb/devices will do the same.I will still add them into the FAQ but atleast this should help for now http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/images/smilies/wink.gif

This will add the USB's like the 3G Option did - am I seeing a swap here ? - so just dial /dev/ttyUSB0 or so - check the logs

Extra Steps for the Huawei Cards:

None really - just make sure usbserial is loaded and the card will come up on /dev/ttyUSB0 - check the logs again to confirm

If the card doesn't come up, unload usbserial and reload with the following command:

Code:
rmmod usbserial && modprobe usbserial vendor=0x12d1 product=0x1001
I am still trying to work on the USB only card, so at the moment, I don't know if it will work under Linux.

Huawei E220:

I have found that this modem will only work with the short cable supplied...not the long one with two plugs...*shrug*

Same as the E620, except use the following modprobe command: Code:
rmmod usb-storage
modprobe usbserial vendor=0x12d1 product=0x1003 (Some have reported an ID of 0x1001 - use lsusb to confirm)
After that, you will notice only one USB serial coming up, then, remove the device and re-attach it, you shouldn't need to re-insert usbserial.

Notes:

I have only seen 3G speeds on this device, but I think it is because of my RF conditions and location. More on this to follow...

[bnt]

Firstly: have you looked here (http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/resources/datacards)? If those are the instructions you're following, which step had the problem?

Alternatively: I know the EEE machines don't come with Ubuntu, they come with a version of Xandros Linux, but I had a bit of a search and found this (http://yoryor.net/index.php/archives/52). What I'm reading there is that you don't need to download any bits, it just takes a few commands. I obviously can't test this myself, not having the hardware, but what happens if you follow that?
- open a Terminal (the Ctrl-Alt-R bit) and enter
sudo modprobe usbserial vendor=0×19d2 product=0×0063
less /var/log/dmesg
The second command opens a log file so you can see the results of the first command. Look for any lines with /dev/ttyUSB in them, near the bottom. If you can see "K3565" in there, that's a start. The rest of the article is about using "wvdialer" to get it going, but there may be an easier way on the EEE system.

[NRU74]

bnt
Doh
I meant Xandros [that extra glass of Crozes Hermitage I'm afraid]
Thanks - I'm going to try again

[mad_jock]

Great news.

I am a fully none paying user of Fedora 11 and haven't had any driver probs with several different laptops/desktops. In fact with quite a few its swap the hard disks and boot and the things still don't give any grief at all.

Stick a blue tooth dongle in the side 2 seconds later its working.

Actually I did have a problems once with the vodaphone driver for a Broadband dongle it worked but not at the max performance for the network.

My flight bag netbook is an ACER aspire one which I have stuck some more memory in 1.5G or something stupid like that. Stuck fedora on it after deciding that the linux it comes with was too restrictive even after unlocking the front end and never looked back.

If it wasn't for the pc games I would have a MS machine at all.

[Saab Dastard]

I've had no trouble putting Ubuntu onto a laptop for which I couldn't find a sound driver for Windows 7 (RC).

Ubuntu just worked.

SD

[Avtrician]

I have been tinkering with Centos 5.3, but cant get at the desk much due to No 1 son using the windows box.

Centos seems very good.

[OneIn60rule]

A linux sticky would be enough.

[Bushfiva]

Why does one need to sticky an entire operating system? Surely, if someone is having problems and posts here, then those who can help will answer (as will those who simply Google quickly, but c'est la vie). Stickying a thread doesn't make it any more useful.

[mad_jock]

Whats the pro's and cons of all the different flavours of Linux?

Must admit in my IT days is you had a sparc you used solaris and if you had a SG you used IRIX and you just had to live with the differences. Gawd I used to hate those Solaris patch CD's

[mixture]

Whats the pro's and cons of all the different flavours of Linux?


Hmm.... you are opening a right old can of worms there.

Much the same as asking :
Whats the pro's and cons of Airbus vs Boeing ?
Whats the pro's and cons of Religion X vs Religion Y ?

No clearcut answer .... one consideration could be the commercial backing contributing to the quality of certain distributions.... but that's not something the "open source" community likes to talk about .... :ok:

[bnt]

I actually started writing something about this last night, but it got too long. I think that for the average (non-geeky) user, hardware support is the big issue, and I'm happy to say that things are getting better all the time. I've heard good things about Red Hat / Fedora, Mandriva and a few others, but I've been using Ubuntu versions for the last couple of years exclusively, so that's all I can really comment on. On my netbook (eee PC 1000) I had to tweak it to get it going the first time, but they now support it directly, and the "Netbook Remix" version comes with a "front end" adapted to the smaller screen.

Another question is the "look and feel" you want. If you really need it to be as much like Windows as possible, look for one that uses KDE as its graphical interface: Mandriva, Kubuntu. If you like something cleaner and a bit more UNIX-like, look for Gnome: Ubuntu, SuSE. I believe that Fedora installs both by default, and on the others you can always switch from one to the other after installing some extra bits.

[Keef]

Wot bnt said!

I've tried 'em all (or close). My brain is KDE rather than Gnome, which colours my opinion.

All the distros I tried had little foibles - probably unique to my hardware and my wacky approach to what I wanted to do with the machine.

If I were equipping a new PC and not using Windows 7, it would be Fedora.
The next person, no doubt, would choose something different. The individual distros are all supremely competent, although some require an element of geekdom to get the best out of them.

Errors or "doesn't work" can be challenging. Sometimes, Google will find the complete fix instructions. Other times, an innocent question on a Forum will elicit a stream of abuse.

The amount of (mostly free) software available for the Linux platform is stunning. Kpackage and its equivalents are a wonderful resource for finding stuff to handle any application you can dream of (and some you can't).

[mad_jock]

Cheers for that.

Must admit when I install Fedora it worked with zero fiddling. Gnome looks like what i was used to on Solaris and Irix so I really can't be bothered looking at KDE even though I could. I have found fedora to go beyond the call of duty with hardware. Just swap a drive/boot using a liveOS dongle and away you go with no issues. Find some new toy to stick in a USB port and it just works.

The software is absolutely amazing for what you get for free.

GIMP by far out strips any other graphics/photo editing tool you get on the PC.

Openoffice more than required for my usage. In fact someway's its better than MSOffice because its not full of features which I will never use.

"vi" doesn't seem to have changed either.

[rgbrock1]

mad jock:

vi hasn't changed but it's cousin, vim, improves often. vim is much more friendly to use than vi. Have you given it a whirl?!!!

[mad_jock]

Had a look at it.

vi does the trick for me for edits in /etc so will stick with it.

Wouldn't say I was a black belt in it but even after 10 years not using the thing at least my fingers remember it. Couldn't for the life me explain how to use the thing.

Must admit though I am getting used very quickly with using all the old tools that unix can give.

Need photos off a phone and no cable or IR no problem 1 min FTP server online, N96 with ftp client, local wireless network and 5 mins later photo's transferred.

Want to rename heaps of files write a script done in 4 mins.

All this interactive crap just dulls your mind with bloody clicking at buttons which takes 20-30 times as long as a couple of commands and the use of | and grep.

[rgbrock1]

Mad jock:

I call my Windows colleagues here at work the point-n-click club. When it comes to the command line most are baffled or don't want to know. Or just don't understand the concepts.

Yes, the point-n-click world does have its uses but it sure is nice to know what's under the hood!

[bnt]

Grrr. Don't get me started on editors. I have never gotten on with any editor program that uses modes - e.g. command mode vs. editing mode - or long command sequences. Never mind vi or Emacs, I'm thinking back as far as WordStar. When WordPerfect came along on DOS, I finally found some relief, and got used to Notepad and Word on Windows.

On Linux, if I'm on the command line, I want nano or pico, thank you very much. I'm just trying to edit a text file, not learn a new language. :cool:

[bnt]

I have a tip for Linux users, and people planning to install Linux sometime: get used to keeping the OS and user data separate. These can even be on separate disks (ideally) or partitions.

A bit of history: this notion of keeping user data separate from the OS files is good advice on any operating system, but it's an idea that Windows users have some trouble getting used to, despite Microsoft's recent attempts to enforce it. Windows switched from a single-user OS to a multi-user OS when they brought out NT, so there's been plenty of time for people to get used to this, yet I still see people fighting this idea. (How many of you share one account across a whole family?)

Under Windows you have a folder called "Documents and Settings" (NT, 2000, XP) or "Users" (Vista, 7). Under there, each user has a folder, and all that user's data should go under there. That way, it is hidden from other users. and it's easier to back up.You might say that Windows is becoming more UNIX-like, though NT was heavily influenced by VMS, the OS that ran on DEC VAX systems. (Several VMS designers joined Microsoft to work on NT.)

Under Linux, you have the same concept, but it's called the /home directory. When you install Linux, you might be presented with an option to put /home on a different partition or disk. There is a good reason to do this: if you have to reinstall the OS later, you can wipe the OS partition without wiping the data partition, so data is not lost. During the new installation, you tell Linux to mount that partition as /home without formatting it, and all data and settings are back.

It was funny to see complaints about the security features introduced by Microsoft in Vista, when all they were doing was enforcing the kind of security that UNIX systems have had all along. I think the reason why it became a problem has to do with many applications, especially old ones, being written in with a "single user" mentality, not understanding the need to clearly separate system and user data. It makes sense that Administrator (or root) rights are required when you install an application, but after that it should run without needing Administrator rights.

Anyway, if there's one point to remember, it's this: under multi-user Linux, you will only need root rights for specific tasks, such as installing an application or fixing something. At all other times you will work as a normal user, with your own data and settings distinct from other users and the system. On my Ubuntiu Netbook system I don't even have the root account enabled: I use the "temporary elevation" system (sudo) when I need to do any system maintenance tasks.

[Saab Dastard]

I think the reason why it became a problem has to do with many applications, especially old ones, being written in with a "single user" mentality, not understanding the need to clearly separate system and user data. It makes sense that Administrator (or root) rights are required when you install an application, but after that it should run without needing Administrator rights.

Absolutely spot on, there bnt - my biggest peeves with Windows apps. It is ridiculous to expect admin rights to run software after it has been installed - especially as 99% of the time it is sheer laziness on the programmer's part.

I usually find that that granting write access to a few files or directories in Program Files or Windows allows the application to be run as a User account, not admin account.

SD

[rgbrock1]

bnt:

VMS ran on DEC VAXs indeed. And it still runs. On VAXen, Alpha
and Integrity hardware. It's still running strong and has quite the installed base. I've been making money as a VMS Engineer - now OpenVMS - since 1986 and it's still the best operating system, hands down, out there.

But that's not a biased opinion now is it?!!!!

[Keef]

I'm with bnt on separating OS and data.

My umpteen-distro Linux machine had the data folders (including Thunderbird mail) on the same drive for all distros. For example, I could read the same e-mail and process it, regardless of which distro I was running.

The same technique applies for Windows - after the first crash and reinstall, it becomes a cause of joy that the data were on drives D and up.

[bnt]

Progress report: I upgraded my eee PC 1000 to 9.10 "Karmic" on Friday. A couple of quirks I encountered:

I like the Synaptic package manager, and am not ready to give it up for the new "Ubuntu Software Center" just yet. (I get the impression that the new program is an attempt at a iTunes-like App store, with the possibility of letting developers charge for their apps at some point.).

Synaptic was reporting that many of the apps I had previously installed were "auto-removable". This doesn't mean that they would be removed automatically by the system itself, but that they would be removed if I ran the "apt-get autoremove" command. This is something I do regularly, so this was a bit alarming to see. It turned out that most of the apps in question were redundant, replaced by others, but there were a few I wanted to keep anyway.

The solution was to mark those apps as "manually-installed", which is what they are. Select them, then uncheck "automatically installed" from the Package menu. They then appear as "Installed (manual)" in Status view.

The other things was that I found the performance went down badly. This was down to factors specific to my system here:
- this netbook has solid state drives, so it helps to change a few things, as detailed on some web pages such as this (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AspireOne110L). The upgrade had undone the changes I'd made before, such as the "elevator=noop" change to GRUB. This has a major positive effect on Linux SSD performance.
- Our ISP at home, Eircom, has chronic DNS problems: try and open a webpage, it takes several seconds for them to resolve the website address so your browser can talk to it. This is easily solved by switching to OpenDNS by following the instructions here (https://store.opendns.com/setup/computer/) - or, as I had done, changing the DSL Router configuration. (You can just use their servers without creating an account or anything like that.) Turns out Eircom had pushed out a router update that reset the DNS settings, so it has gone back to defaults, but I've been able to set up the OpenDNS servers on the netbook itself, using their instructions.

Apart from that - I like it. Graphics performance is improved a bit, and performance is now acceptable using the "Extra" graphics settings, though I don't really need that level of "bling" on my humble little netbook. :}

[BOAC]

Anyone seen 'Slax'? Linux on a stick!

[x213a]

I'm trying to "learn" Linux at the moment. On my pottering around with laptop I have Ubuntu Jaunty installed and I also have it dual boot with XP on my desktop. I have several other distro images on disk also which I will try out when I inevitably bugger up the Jaunty installation.
As a beginner to Linux - my main gripe is DVD playback and all the codecs etc. No matter what updates / codecs / players I install from the repositories, and following all the advice on the millions of Linux websites - I cannot get DVDs to play with a decent picture. It's always slow and grainy.
It took me a few days to figure how to get sound on youtube also. At least I'm on the learning curve though - if at the bottom:ok:

[Guest 112233]

X213a -I'm now in exactly the same position -My former dual boot net book. An Acer One - I had a disaster when trying to fix a corrupted Ubuntu update on Fri last.

I ran computer janitor against the systems prompts and got a broken linix install - Urub would not work and I don't have a Windows recovery disk to correct the MBR. (just the factory re install option.)

I bit the bullet and did a full install of 9.04 not 9.10.
It runs OK. So far - An Atom/1GB/160 MB HD.

Don't be tempted to tweek the hardware device drivers re Wireless - I did - idiot of the week. Also search for an app called sbackup or simple backup - its a little gem.
Take a look for firestarter too - A firewall for linux.

Ubuntu 9.04 is proving to be a nice little runner. I will keep everyone informed of my progress.

CAT III

[mad_jock]

If you fancy another go at another distribution try this link.

The Perfect Desktop - Fedora 11 (GNOME) | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials (http://www.howtoforge.com/the-perfect-desktop-fedora-11-gnome)

Haven't had any problems with DVD's although I did with playing music CD's. If you get to that state of play before I find which package I reversed its pretty easy to find if you google it.

And I am on an Acer one with fedora as I type. Its well worth having a search on installing more memory in it. A bit of a pain if your not used to pulling laptops apart but it fly's like the wind with an extra Gig in it.

[x213a]

Does anybody know of a simple way to enable file transfer between an Ubuntu Jaunty desktop and a laptop running Jaunty?

So far (on my laptop) I've right clicked the network connections, created a new network and enable sharing on various files. I can detect and join that network with my desktop and can even see the shared files on my laptop. It asks me for a password though when I try to access them via > Network>windows network>workgroup. I have installed something called ssh also, although I'm unsure what it is for exactly. I know about Samba but with my limited knowledge of Linux it's way over my head at the moment.

Thats my only complaint about Linux - nothing seems designed for entry level, it seems more geared towards people who are already gurus in other operating systems.

Desktop is ethernet wired to Netgear router, laptop is wireless.

Cheers.

[mad_jock]

ftp server is a very easy way to transfer files.

vsftpd is the server I use without issue.

Ubuntu Linux vsftpd ftp service / server install, configuration howto (http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/ubuntu-vsftpd-ftp-service-server/)

Once its setup up you will be able to connect from any device which has a FTP client. Its how I get my photos off my phone these days.

[bnt]

Does anybody know of a simple way to enable file transfer between an Ubuntu Jaunty desktop and a laptop running Jaunty?
...
I have installed something called ssh also, although I'm unsure what it is for exactly. I know about Samba but with my limited knowledge of Linux it's way over my head at the moment.

You're on the right track with SSH, which is short for Secure Shell. At its most basic, it lets you open up a Shell (command line) on one machine from another, even across the Internet. I've sat here in Dublin and ran commands on a server in Bangalore. It's available for Windows, Mac OS and others too. Then, to answer your question, you can do file copies over SSH using SCP (Secure Copy). You need to know a bit of odd shell syntax (http://www.hypexr.org/linux_scp_help.php), or use the Ubuntu "Connect To Server" method, which opens up a file window on the other system.

There's also FTP (File Transfer Protocol) , which works in a similar client/server fashion, and might be a little easier to use, though less secure. There are more far FTP programs than SCP e.g. GFTP under Gnome, or the same "Connect To Server" method as above on Ubuntu. I wouldn't worry about Samba unless you want your Linux box to look like a Windows box to other Windows systems. (I don't use it much because, well, file transfer is all it can do.)

I prefer the SSH/SCP method, and I use it at home, synchronising data between two systems (Linux & Windows) with the Unison (http://www.cis.upenn.edu/%7Ebcpierce/unison/) program. I run a script to sync my "Documents" directories on the two systems, then shut the Windows system down after that's finished.

The first step is to get OpenSSH up and running: install Server on the "target" machine, and Client on the others. Test it from the client by saying ssh <server>. This basic command assumes that the user name is the same on both systems - which I would definitely recommend. If not, you need to add a logon option such as ssh -l <user> <server>.

Then try some SCP commands as described (or secpanel). You'll be asked for a password every time, which soon gets annoying, so if you're going to do a lot of copies, you might want to look in to setting up RSA Keys (http://pkeck.myweb.uga.edu/ssh/). When that's done, login is automatic, no passwords required.

PS: I think the lack of "easy file copy" reflects the security-conscious nature of UNIX systems in general. When you allow other machines to connect to your system, you're creating a potential security opening, and in the UNIX world you expect there to be an administrator of the system who is aware of what's happening, and why. You can set up e.g. Samba to emulate a Windows server, so it's easy for end users, but it doesn't just happen! :8

[x213a]

Thanks for that.
Several hours of researching on google just about to commence!

[Saab Dastard]

If it is something you want to do a lot of, you might want to have a look at NFS.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpNFSHowTo#NFS%20Server

SD

[bnt]

Quick addendum: I forget that you can do "FTP over SSH" too, it's called SFTP. I don't disagree with mad_jock about FTP, if file transfer is all you're after.

[x213a]

I think I need to improve my basic knowledge of Linux before progressing onto this level. Have just looked at a few supposedly 'basic' guides and they may as well have been written in heiroglyphics:ugh:

I've buggered up too many installations already by diving in at what (to me) was the deep end!

[bnt]

Nah, it's not that bad, just a bit "old school". You have a Server program that provides a Service, such as FTP, and a Client program that uses the Service. Keep that Client/Server model in mind and you'll be fine. Install a FTP Server on one machine, a Client on 'other (e.g. gftp), fire it up and log on. :ok:

[SoundBarrier]

Yeah if the distro fits, use it. I have gone from one to the other over the years and I have settled on Linux Mint for the moment. The quality of the distro is good and the toys are even nicer. You can get the GNOME or KDE versions and I've been getting friends to use it instead of Windows. I don't get nearly as many calls for help using Linux Mint as I did when they were running Windows. Stable and performs better too!

Oh yes and the driver support is brilliant, on a machine that I had Windows 7 on (for work) I battled for ages to get the display to work properly. Live CD of linux Mint..no worries, it worked first off.

Just my experience with it!

[rgbrock1]

x213a:

If you want to peruse a really good beginner's guide to Linux I would highly suggest the following: The Ultimate Guide On Linux For Beginners (http://www.linuxlots.com/~jam/)

Most people I know who have read this guide are happy they have done so and leaves them with some pretty goofundamental knowledge of things Linux.

Hope that helps.

[x213a]

Thanks! Site bookmarked, research commenced:ok:

[Guest 112233]

Hi everyone - Ubuntu 9.04 is working just fine on the Asus - EM up and going via Eudora. Installing the MPC 465C Multifunction Printer comes next.

Sbackup doing what it says on the tin. The biggest improvement that I'm seeking, is disk performance; over the dual boot senario.

Battery life is about the same as XP. (its one of the small battery types - 1and 3/4 Hours working time.). application performance again slightly better. Flash Add in installed, to watch BBC etc.

Firefox 3.5 loads very quickly. Complex web sites like the Guardian or the Telegraph (No advert intended - No connection in any way with either other than as a user) load very quickly - Boot time 15-20 seconds or so - The same as XP.

Network connectivity - room for improvement here; but still completely usable. Download speeds (With MK1 BT HH) about 620 Kbs. So far so good.

The user interface is simple to use. Anyone could use this. Open Office comes as part of the install - Also there's a very good dictionary. Finally Help does help.

CAT III

[None of the above]

A few weeks ago I gave a neighbour a PC with Ubuntu 9.04 installed which he has since upgraded to 9.10.

Said gent is an Internet radio fiend and runs two web radios via Reciva (https://www.reciva.com/) and Frontier Silicon (http://www.wifiradio-frontier.com/setupapp/fs/asp/AuthLogin/SignIn.asp) portals. Both radios work fine but sometimes he likes to listen via the PC. Stations selected via the Reciva website play fine but those selected via Frontier Silicon don't play at all.

FWIW, CDs, BBC iPlayer and the likes of Youtube all produce audio OK.
He says that I managed to get 9.04 set up to work on the Frontier Silicon site but I honestly don't remember how I did that. I've recently had a bereavement and the neighbour's Ubuntu configuration hasn't been at the top of my list of things to commit to memory.

Any thoughts Gentlemen please?

N o t a

[x213a]

Isnt 9.10 still in Beta?

Try this link for help...

Sound Solutions for Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) Users|Ubuntu Geek (http://www.ubuntugeek.com/sound-solutions-for-ubuntu-904-jaunty-users.html)

I had to download extra codecs for firefox to enable sound on youtube etc etc.

I have the command line info on other laptop. Will hunt them out for you.

[None of the above]

Many thanks for that x213a.

One shall gird up one's loins, so to speak, and apply the appropriate 'stuff' to the neighbour's machine.

Ubuntu 9.10 was released in its finished form during the second half of October. Can't remember the exact date.

Do you notice 'memory' (mine) has featured in both of my posts? Age is catching up with one.:eek:

[batninth]

I think I had a vision of hell the other day, being stuck on a flight next to a colleague who was having problems trying to get Ubuntu up & running. I must admit my own experiences have been mixed with it as well.

Having seen your post, SoundBarrier, I've just tried Linux Mint & on first sight I'm very impressed. Even when Ubuntu has worked reasonably well, it's still been a chore to get the multimedia up & running, but LinuxMint just worked straight out of the box, especially a Flash application. It installed quicker too, and with the system monitor swicthed on it's using less memory & sharing the workload across the CPUs far more efficiently than Ubuntu was doing.

I've always had a beef that Linux would always have a problem competing with Windows until you could get Linux straight of the box & it works as well as Windows. So far, Linux Mint has been it so thank you for the recommendation.

Now, dare I offer the install CD to my colleague....?

[x213a]

Here is a link to a piece I found very useful as a beginner to Linux after installing Ubuntu.

To Do List After installing Ubuntu 9.04 aka Jaunty Jackalope The Indexer (http://theindexer.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/to-do-list-after-installing-ubuntu-904-aka-jaunty-jackalope/)

Basically, a guide as to all the additional tweaks required to get it running. I never managed to sort DVD playback with decent quality though.

Edit..

And this also:

How to setup the perfect 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope Desktop | chrisjohnston.org (http://chrisjohnston.org/2009/setup-the-perfect-904-desktop)

[Guest 112233]

Reading the posts re 9.04 makes interesting reading. I hope that my account of the difficulties that I have had might help others.

Here goes.

The Acer Aspire was updated from 9.04 to 9.10 this afternoon. Remember I did not have any previous sound or internet access probs (Wired and Wireless).

The Very good:

General speed is greatly improved its about 20% quicker. Fire fox 3.5.5 Included too. There's support for SMART analysis of the hard disk drive too. Nice ! and useful too.

Update keeps you settings and installed progs where possible.

The not so good:

Wireless access although a lot quicker (56 Mb/s from 5-6 at most) - seems to be intermittent. More on this when I get a better picture.

The login screen is less than beautiful, but that's a minor point.

Update is a good move if you do not have an exsisting problem. (1MB Ram, Atom, 160 GB HD )

CAT III

[rgbrock1]

As for Linux working out of the box:

I've been working with Linux for about 8 years now. (15 years if you consider it's mother - Unix).

With all the distros I've used - some more difficult than others to get to work out of the box - I can unequivocally state that
Mandriva Linux is by far the most prone to doing so. Most, if not all, codecs are loaded by default, most hardware is correctly identified on load, etc.

If anyone out there is in the process of considering a Linux distro to use, definitely give Mandriva Linux a test ride.

No, I do not work for Mandriva!!!! Just a happy user.

[Saab Dastard]

Thanks for that RG - the biggest problem I've had with Linux is finding drivers with WPA / WPA2 support for wifi cards.

SD

[rgbrock1]

Saab:

Mandriva has very good support for most, if not all, drivers of WPA and WPA2 enabled cards.

FWIW: 2nd on the list of Linux distros that I find work mostly out of the box is OpenSuSE.

[Cheerio]

Opensuse 11.2 (www.opensuse.org) was released yesterday. I'll install it tonight.

[x213a]

Have just upgraded to Ubuntu 9.10. I dont have any of the flash-player / DVD playback problems I experienced with 9.04. I presume all the required codecs came bundled with it. A definite improvement from my point of view - but I'm only a "lite" user though and somebody more Linux savvy may find it a total different experience.

[four_two]

I'm going to post this problem I have with my Package Manager in Ubuntu in the hope that someone can point me towards resolving it.

Although I've been using Ubuntu- in its various versions- for a couple of years- I'm pretty clueless about it as an operating system but as it's been very tolerant of me, and reliable, that hasn't been a problem.

A few days ago the icon that relates to the Package Manager turned a nasty shade of red and when I hover my mouse over it I get the following error message :


“Error Opening the cache (E=Encountered a section with no Package: header, E:Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/
gb.archive.ubuntu.com_dists_jaunty_universe_binary-i386_Packages, E the lists or status file could not be parsed or opened.)”
This usually means that your installed packages have unmet dependencies

I looked on the Ubuntu forums and found the same problem with some instructions to follow. For example in the Terminal try:

1)sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade

2)Change the software source and enter sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get install -f

With the result I've ended up with virtually the same snag.

Reading package lists... Error!
E: Encountered a section with no Package: header
E: Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/archive.canonical.com_ubuntu_dists_jaunty_partner_binary-i386_Packages
E: The package lists or status file could not be parsed or opened.

As things stand I can't keep my system up to date so if I can't fix it I will execute plan B (to reinstall Ubuntu usingJaunty Jackelope as opposed to the one previous).

If someone has any ideas to help me – and of course simple enough for me to understand - I would be grateful.

[bnt]

Looks like the problem described here (http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-863742.html), where the solution is just to delete those package files from disk. They get re-created when you Update again:
sudo rm /var/lib/apt/lists/* -vf
sudo apt-get update

[x213a]

Bnt...

Re: Your last..do you actually have a reference file for these sort of command line inputs or are they "fluent" to you? Did you learn from study, experience or from error?
What is the best way to "get" Linux?



I've only just sussed out sudo apt-get update!
:}

[bnt]

Well, with any command, you have a basic reference right in the terminal: you just say "man <whatever>" e.g. "man apt-get". You pick up various things over time, and the Internet is a great help here. Otherwise, just get your hands dirty - but make backups before changing files.

It might help to remember that "Linux" really only refers to the kernel, the "engine" under the hood. Applications like apt-get, or X-Windows and anything running under are not core and can be changed. Even the shell where you enter commands (usually "bash") is optional, though Ubuntu installs a lot of these applications to make the system usable by mere mortals.

The various "package managers" - systems for installing and deleting applications - are among the major differences between competing Linux systems. Red Hat, Mandriva & some others use the Red Hat system (RPM), SuSE has its own system, while Debian-based systems such as Ubuntu use the DPKG system. The "apt" commands are a friendlier layer on top of the "dpkg" commands", and there are also X-Windows applications that make it even easier, such as Synaptic or the new Ubuntu Software Centre.

I admit to having been a little confused by "sudo" at first: put it in front of any command, and that command runs with root privileges, just by entering your own password. Isn't that a security risk? Yes, it is, but it's not automatically enabled for all users, just the first user you create during installation. The alternative to that is logging in as root, which could be seen as an even greater risk, since the root user really can do anything, including things that can kill the installation stone dead - and you can get blasé and careless about it. You can use "sudo" to enable the root account if you want, but I wouldn't, since "sudo" does the same job, one command at a time.

edit: I should add that the location of those files is not the kind of thing you'd figure out by yourself - except for the general idea that they'd be in the place generally recommended for an application's working files i.e. under /var. I don't think /var/lib/apt is ideal, though - I'd say /var/cache/apt would be better, alongside the downloaded packages. In other words, while there are guidelines, the exact location is set by the developer, not dictated by Linux itself.

[four_two]

Thank you very much bnt,the little red Package Manager icon has disappeared and I assume everything is now ok.

Well perhaps not everything as this was tacked on to the end.



W: Failed to fetch cdrom://Ubuntu 9.10 iso Image/dists/karmic/main/binary-i386/Packages Please use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update cannot be used to add new CD-ROMs

W: Failed to fetch cdrom://Ubuntu 9.10 iso Image/dists/karmic/restricted/binary-i386/Packages Please use apt-cdrom to make this CD-ROM recognized by APT. apt-get update cannot be used to add new CD-ROMs

E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead.


So flushed with success I entered apt-cdrom and got the following(I thought in for a penny in for a pound) even if I didn't really know what it all meant.

~$ apt-cdrom
apt 0.7.20.2ubuntu6 for i386 compiled on Apr 17 2009 04:25:38
Usage: apt-cdrom [options] command

apt-cdrom is a tool to add CDROM's to APT's source list. The
CDROM mount point and device information is taken from apt.conf
and /etc/fstab.

Commands:
add - Add a CDROM
ident - Report the identity of a CDROM

Options:
-h This help text
-d CD-ROM mount point
-r Rename a recognized CD-ROM
-m No mounting
-f Fast mode, don't check package files
-a Thorough scan mode
-c=? Read this configuration file
-o=? Set an arbitrary configuration option, eg -o dir::cache=/tmp
See fstab(5)

I think it's referring to the download I had of Ubuntu ISO Image 9.10 on my desktop- in anticipation of having to reinstall Ubuntu if I was unable to get help for my problem.

As far as I can see - because I put a cd in my player - the player is recognised, and plays.

Thanks again for your help, although I did try the Ubuntu forums I think I might have tried in the wrong forum.

[bnt]

Yep - it was looking for a CD (or image) that wasn't where it was expected. I'm guessing you had the downloaded ISO image mounted to look like a CD (which is convenient) It's annoying but not fatal. If you want it to stop doing that, you can launch Synaptic, go to Repositories, and un-check the line that points at the CD. Or, if feeling adventurous, do this in the terminal:
sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.listsudo we already discussed: nano is a simple text editor, and the rest is the file to edit. Scroll down till you find the line with "cdrom" in it, and put a # in front of it on the same line. This serves to "comment out" the line, like the old DOS "REM" command. When done, hit Ctrl-O to save the file, hit Enter to accept the name), and Ctrl-X to exit to the terminal. Do another sudo apt-get update afterwards to refresh the repositories.

Personally, I really like the apt-get system - it's one reason why I stick with Ubuntu, though I know other Debian-based distros have it too.

[four_two]

I'm probably going to make myself look foolish here but I went the terminal route, typed in sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list and put a hash on the correct line then entered ctrl-o and ctrl-x and I get this:
File Name to Write: /etc/apt/sources.list....*
(This is shown in white on black at bottom)
If I were to try to exit by closing the terminal it says "a process is still running."
*Do I put in the apt-get update in here?