I need to vent! CV Rage!

[Water Wings]

A word of advice for the young one's in this industry....please learn how to write a good C.V.

The poorly designed C.V's the company receives are of no end of amusement to myself and my colleagues.

Don't embellish . Listing every type of C172 you have flown (M, N, P, R, SP etc) does not make us want to give you a job....it makes us want to throw your C.V. away!

Don't include irrelevant certificates. Congratulations on being named best rugby player when you were in Year 5....please do not include a copy of the certificate with your C.V.

Don't write a spiel about yourself in the third person....it just makes you look...well....strange. This does not apply if you are HRH Queen Elizabeth II.

Don't mention Tertiary study and then list every single paper you have completed without an explanation as to why you never completed the qualification. Please feel free to mention fully completed or on going Tertiary study....the request to leave out a list of individual papers and grades still applies. If we desire further data, we will ask for it.

Congratulations on attending a one day introduction to 'whatever' course....this helps you as a Line Pilot how? Admittedly some of these types of courses are relevant. Please use your common sense here.

Don't list referees with the same surname as yourself...it just raises our eyebrows.

Keep it short and simple people. Two pages MAX listing relevant data. Bigger is most definitely not better. The biggest C.V. we have received whilst I have been here was pushing 100 pages. A copy of every single thing this person had done since starting Primary School!! If you hold a CPL, no real need to include a copy of a First Solo certificate...we are able to make that conclusion for ourselves.:ok:

[Water Wings]

I remembered another one.

Please don't send us a C.V. by email which also lists the 50 other people/companies you have just sent the C.V. to. We might not be special, but we like to feel like we are and a mass email of your credentials well....we're just not feeling the love.

I suspect any aircraft owners in NZ will know exactly which email I am referring to...I know for a fact you all got it:ok:

[neville_nobody]

Yes point taken however that is only your opinion. I have been knocked back in the past for some jobs because my CV wasn't detailed enough. I have also had people call me up and ask me to be more thorough with my CV. Be aware that the advice people get from School careers councillors and others is along the lines of more detailed CVs. I have seen friends CV's from other industries and they are what aviation would consider over detailed but that's what employers want in that field. Aviation is really only a numbers game anyway, as long as you can tick the stupid box then you have a job.

However I agree that for aviation you shouldn't be putting on irrelevant stuff like types of 172 etc.

[lilflyboy262]

Haha thanks for that. It amazes me the lack of common sense that some people have. I guess they think that you have nothing better to do than sit around reading CV's all day.

Although, Out of interest, what would be a perfect CV that would get your attention? A lot of people here need a hand in grabbing the attention of a chief pilot from the thousands of other applicants.

[dabz]

Thank you for the tips Water Wings, that's some good advice :ok:

So which company do you recruit for? :O hehe

[Wally Mk2]

"WW" that was most amassing yr post re CV's:-)
I guess these days one has to please the CV filter person first before you look like getting an interview.
Gone are the days when to get a job you pretty much had to know someone as well as have a zillion hrs just to fly an beat up old PA31:-)

When I had to sift thru a million CV's looking for a driver for a past Co. I looked for a basic CV with pertinent info that suited our req's & made a short list. You can always ask a candidate in more depth his experiences at interview time.

I don't envy the young pilots of today trying to claw their way up that now fragile ladder. Once an airline pilot was looked upon with God like status, say that yr an Airline pilot these days at a party & they will want to strangle you for making their last cheap holiday miserable due lousy service even though you just point the A/C not run the Co.!!! Oh & to know how many ex wives ya got?:}

Wmk2

[neville_nobody]

Although, Out of interest, what would be a perfect CV that would get your attention?

Turning up in person.

[Codger]

The simple cover letter noting two attachments. The first is my CV with all the information that you need to know. The second one is my CV with more than enough detail to have at hand should you need to justify your decision to hire me to the HR Dept.
First version is one page. Second version is 8 pages.
I've only used the above format twice but got the position both times.

[john_tullamarine]

Like others my attention span for CVs is one page, two tops if it's REALLY interesting.

As Codger wrote simultaneously with me ... the way to kill all concerns is to include a half page (new chum) through two page (greybeard) executive summary CV (super terse) followed by a more expansive document. That way the guts is easily reviewed and the 0.00263 percent of folk who have nothing better to do with their time can read the padding following.

Our practice (greybeards) has always been along the lines that ours are two page maximum, regardless, as the folk who want to use us know enough about us anyway.

I can recall running into an undergrad engineering mate some years ago .. he proferred his CV by way of catching up on history and it was about 40 pages of waffle and questionable claims. The guts was probably worth a two-pager.

However, if you are applying for a specific job and the advert refers to required criteria or somesuch, then your covering paperwork must address those points as the advert suggests the initial vetting will be done by folk who know naught about the job and will be working on box-ticking ... if you don't get through the box-ticking front desk, the chap/girl who counts in the next room doesn't get to see your paperwork and you are out on your ear before you start spruiking to the folk who count.

[Water Wings]

Although, Out of interest, what would be a perfect CV that would get your attention? A lot of people here need a hand in grabbing the attention of a chief pilot from the thousands of other applicants.
So which company do you recruit for? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/embarass.gif hehe
I'm not the CP but we co-wrote my initial post and he is sitting in the office here with me.

Unexplained gaps in work history raise questions. A layout that's easy on the eye is a bonus. Breaking down hours into Total, PIC, Instructing etc helps. A letter or email addressed by name to the CP is a plus.

[VH-XXX]

From what I have read in terms of Aviation Resume's, the Covering Letter is far more important than a polished resume, particularly with such large numbers coming in. With a good covering letter it doesn't really matter how big your resume is. If I'm going through my inbox I can quickly scan the covering letters without having to open the Word file attachments.

In the covering letter state something like the following:

- Who you are and where you come from and where you are now

- What you are doing now, as in what job (if any) and what you are flying

- Why you want to work with my company

- Note relevant experience from your attached resume that is relevant to this particular gig

- How quickly you can come and see me for an interview and when you can start. (Be realistic though, if you are flying in PNG don't claim to be able to move to Adelaide to start with me next week for example)

[Lodown]

I can remember sending off resumes/CV's loaded with erroneous info. A modern resume should be one page; two pages, tops, even for an old fart like me. Anything more doesn't get read. It should address all pertinent information (qualifications, experience) relevant to the job being sought, nothing more. The goal of a resume is to get an interview, not get the job. Gaps in work history are common and should not be avoided. If there is a period of time employed as a bag packer at Woolies, then state it, but also add that you were continuing studies towards ATPL or something similar at the time.

[sagan]

I had one recently where the pretentious 'enjoy' was added in the covering letter, ie 'enjoy' reading this sickening piffle.

I didn't 'enjoy' the CV but did 'enjoy' deleting it.

[Dunnza]

Look I know most of you guys are married and have kids, but seriously. I don't really want to know that, I'm interested in you and your qualifications, not your personal life.

[Ixixly]

welll... i'll stick myself out there, anyone involved in regularly reviewing C.Vs willing to have me send them a copy of mine for a critique?

Reading the above has got me all nervous about whether maybe i'm including too much?!

[otto the grot]

If you are emailing your CV in response to an ad, don't worry about the content of the CV.

The person sifting through multiple applications doesn't actually want to open up your CV and read through it, because that wastes time. All they are interested in initially is wether or not you meet the min requirements.

So in your email message text, refer to things that the employer is looking for. Example, total time, right to live and work in that employers country, jet/turbo prop experience, type rating etc. etc.

They can then just glance at your message, determine if your a keeper or not and then move on to the next person in the list.

The next part of the process, once they've sorted the chaff from the hay, is to then open up CV's to read the details.

[Lodown]

And include a line, "References available on request." No need to send references with an application unless requested. No applicant is going to submit a bad reference and they generally don't get read unless the resume makes it to the next round.

[tail wheel]

Yes point taken however that is only your opinion. I have been knocked back in the past for some jobs because my CV wasn't detailed enough. I have also had people call me up and ask me to be more thorough with my CV.

The secret is relevant detail, provided in an abbreviated format. Being blackboard monitor in Grade 6 may be important to you, but doesn't interest your possible future employer.

I probably read 200 to 300 CVs each year. Two things get up my nose:

Irrelevant padding; and
Applicants who don’t know how to use their Spell Checker.

[Codger]

Regarding the point that Waterwings made.

Explain the gaps. They'll always imagine something worse than what really happened. Just be honest and brief.
Learned that lesson way back.
Why did you leave that summer job mid August?
"Suicidal Bambi decided to do an instantaneous conversion to Hartzell aided finely ground venison before I'd learned to overfly and look way out to both sides of the strip that I was about to land on. Someone had to take the fall for the damage and I was volunteered."

[remoak]

When I was involved in recruiting for a big Euro airline, we required a CV no more than one page of A4. If it was bigger, it got filed in the bin. At the time, we were getting over a hundred CVs a week, so we had to quick; if we liked the look of a CV in the first 2-3 seconds, it got our attention and we read it.

We generally never read covering letters, the CV has the data we need and we were too busy to wade through a bunch of covering letters.

Fancy binding, cute plastic files etc all got binned as the CVs were all filed in ordinary ring binders.

Turning up in person was a no-no, we were way too busy for that. If we want to see you, we'll call.

We were looking for people who were confident in themselves, and who trusted in their abilities and didn't resort to desperation tactics. Anyone who looked desperate got binned.

At the end of the day, as CV is simply a screening device. If you don't have the qualifications, you won't be considered no matter how much irrelevant crap you put in your CV. All we want from a CV is that it be clear, legible, to the point, well set out and have no grammatical or spelling errors. The point being that if a pilot can't manage to generate a smart, error-free CV with the relevant info, we aren't going to trust him with an aircraft.

All you really need is:

- Personal details, including contact info
- Educational info including highest qual achieved
- Flying experience, broken down appropriately
- Work history for last 5-10 years
- If you really must, a short para on why we should hire you, but any more than 3-4 lines and we get bored.
- And, probably most important of all - a photo of yourself in the top right corner. Try and avoid uniform shirts and four bars if you only hold a basic CPL... makes you look like a wally.

Make sure that you have the long CV (that's the one with your certificate from kindergarten and Diploma in Advanced Coffee Making etc) ready if requested. It should include a complete work history, with all gaps accounted for.

Having good referees helps too.

[Wally Mk2]

.............."makes you look like a wally" and what's wrong looking like a wally 'remoak'?:)
It's amazing you can have all the right quals but if you don't please the guy going thru them all first up 'cause he believes Cv's ought to be a certain way then yr goose is cooked!:-(

Good advice though remoak:ok:


Wmk2:-)

[FL170]

Best piece of advice I've ever received when it comes to resume's;

Everything you say about yourself should be turned into a benefit for them. Don't tell them anything about yourself (in this brief CV) that can't be turned into a benefit. Leave out your school results and music accomplishments, remember they don't care.

Every C.V. should be tailor made for who you are applying for and do your homework. Find out if u need an MR licence to pick up pax in the company bus or if you just might need that forklift licence to shift loads in the hangar etc etc..

[Mr. Hat]

Simple 2 pages. First page is a brief letter the second page is the CV with personal details (DOB Birth place Marital Status Address Phone), licence/ratings hours (rounded), education, work history, referees.

The letter is very important. It needs to be brief and straight to the point. It needs to read well. Read it out lod to your flat mate over and over. They dont want your life hisotry just the crux.

The CV must be fit on one page only. I know people with heavy jet commands that easily do this so with 200 hours I doubt you need more than one page.

The less clutter the better. A clean tidy page is what they look for. Dont try and jam 10 pages worth on one page. KEEP IT SIMPLE.

[18-Wheeler]

Water Wings - I'm half-Kiwi and my Kiwi grandfather flew in WW1.
Can I have a job plz?
Kthxbi.

;)

[Lodown]

Mr Hat: I'll strongly disagree with the DOB, birthplace and marital status. They aren't required until employment. You're just opening the door to identity theft and claims of discrimination.

[Mr. Hat]

Good point. Even better makes it even more minimalist!

Personally I'd put age :}

[VH-XXX]

It is the unfortunate reality that you may be discriminated against by a potential employer, be it race, weight, marital status, looks or something else superficial.

Putting the above said information in your CV including mugshot merely makes the rejection process happen much faster. If you get to the interview after travelling half way across the country you'll be more disappointed to find out that another guy who is better looking and weighs 20kg's less than you with the same experience got the job. This is called REALITY.

The interview happens when you meet the required criteria and the employer wants to know if you are an alright guy / gal.

[remoak]

what's wrong looking like a wally 'remoak'?

Hey... nothing wrong with looking like THE Wally... :ok:

I'll strongly disagree with the DOB, birthplace and marital status. They aren't required until employment. You're just opening the door to identity theft and claims of discrimination.

We always required that on the CV, as the DOB and birthplace are necessary for preliminary security and other necessary HR checks, and marital status has a direct connection with the ability to accept certain basings or types of flying. There is no real risk of identity theft, unless you believe that airlines engage in identity theft to boost revenues.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

FWIW here are some DONT'S

If I want a resume, I will ask for one. If I haven't asked for one it will go in the "unsolicited junk mail" circular filing cabinet. Sorry.

Don't call me "Dear Sir" and don't ask for a position as a charter pilot. Do your research!

Don't come in without an appointment and expect me to drop everything, because you didn't have the good manners to ask in advance when would be a convenient time.

To date I have never employed anyone I didn't train myself or who didn't come with a verbal recommendation from a respected colleague.

[Under Dog]

I have found from my experience in the past that the "squeaky wheel gets the oil"


The Dog:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

To date I have never employed anyone I didn't train myself or who didn't come with a verbal recommendation from a respected colleague.

Yep - why I never bothered with an instructor rating or going out to the GAAPS. Packed the car and pointed it west. Didn't waste one minute trying to get a job close to home.

[tail wheel]

Simple 2 pages. First page is a brief letter the second page is the CV with personal details (DOB Birth place Marital Status Address Phone), licence/ratings hours (rounded), education, work history, referees.

If you include your DOB, Birth place and Marital Status I am not going to interview you. That only opens employers to potential litigation.

I am not interested in what you look like so don't include a photo.

I read the CV first. If that meets my criteria and interests me I may then skim your covering letter.

If I ask for specific skills or qualifications and you don't hold those skills and qualifications, I am not going to interview you.

If I want additional details I will ask for those at interview.

From my airline days, I wanted to see the following on a pilot resume:

Name, address, contact details.

Summary of aviation licenses and ratings.

Summary of aeronautical experience hours.

Summary of previous employers.

I'm yet to see an applicant give me a bad reference or referee. In general I am not interested in your referees; if I like your resume and I interview you, then I will check with your previous (not current) employers.

[remoak]

f you include your DOB, Birth place and Marital Status I am not going to interview you. That only opens employers to potential litigation.

What litigation would that be?

[kellykelpie]

Excellent post Water Wings - you may even get a job offer out of it :8

[*Lancer*]

remoak, it's actualy illegal to ask for that information. You may require an applicant to be above a certain age and to have Australian residency, but you are not entitled to the specifics.

Marital status is totally out! An applicant may or may not be able to accept a basing or certain type of flying, but that is all you can ask. You are not their marriage councellor.

The only exceptions that I have ever heard of are some jobs that have maximum age limits, some jobs that require citizenship, and jobs that require top-secret level security clearances.

You may be sued if any of those questions are asked and the applicant is subsequently not employed.

[remoak]

Ah OK must be an Aussie thing... the rest of the world has more sense! :}

I cant see why there should be an issue if the information is volunteered.

Certainly not the case in Europe.

[training wheels]

If you include your DOB, Birth place and Marital Status I am not going to interview you. That only opens employers to potential litigation.

I'm pretty sure the Qantaslink online application form asks for your date of birth. Does Qantas mainline ask for this as well? How about the other majors?

And if they do, then are you saying it's actually illegal to ask for it?

[johnriketes]

remoak

All good stuff you wrote on cv's etc, and on binning.

Let me pose a question to you. Did you reply or acknowledge to all CV submitting hopefuls, whether it be the standard letter of rejection or at the very least an automated response on receipt of CV? An honest reply will tell me a lot about the company you worked for and possibly a bit about yourself.

On a lighter note I did hear a story about a stressed CP who saw a stack of CV's on his desk. He grabbed half of them and threw them into the bin and was heard to say, "the last thing I need is a load of unlucky pilots". :}

[Ozzie Mozzie]

A very helpful thread. I have bookmarked this one for future reference :ok:.

Is there a preferred computer programme format for resumes (ie .doc, .pdf, presumably .docx is out)

Would a current first aid certificate be relevant?

Presumably resumes with any colours apart from black and white on them go straight into the circular filing cabinet?

[Mach E Avelli]

Name, address, email and phone numbers - right at the top in bold type so my old eyes can easily find what I need if the rest tickles my fancy enough to want to contact you. But not such big font that it takes up a whole cover sheet because that shows an irresponsible disregard for our forests and for all you know I may be a rabid greenie. Ditto putting it all in a plastic folder - I may want the petroleum product for my old ute.
Licence type and number, expiry date of instrument rating and medical - so I can tell whether you are instantly employable or whether one of us is going to spend money to get you up to scratch. Who spends that money will depend on how good the rest of you is.
Significant endorsements e.g. if you have Metro or Dash 8 you don't have to also mention turbine or pressurization or retractable gear. Takes up space on the one page that I will read before deciding whether to bother with page two (and I never read page three, so heed the advice from others here about keeping it concise).
Hours total and hours broken down by type and position - if you have only flown the TU-144 in Siberia as F/O, DO NOT WANK and say 'total jet' to give the impression that you have command time on it.
Do not use the title 'Captain' as a title in the header - unless you are currently serving in the military and hold that rank. Even then it's a bit of a toss because I don't care if you are currently a Rear Admiral - the job on offer is for a F/O, charter pilot or whatever, not skipper of the Ark Royal. It's OK to say you are/were a captain on a significant (i.e. multi-crew) type if you are/were really appointed to the position.
Anything you claim in your c.v. re types and employment history needs to gel with your logbooks - they WILL be scrutinised.
Aviation employment AS A PILOT. I don't need to know that you were head barperson at the Hotel California in 1963. Exceptionally, if you were an aircraft engineer before you became a pilot, I will find it of interest because that shows technical aptitude. Describing periods of unemployment as 'aviation consultant' makes me wary, unless you can produce some accreditation. If you do claim to be an aviation consultant and you get invited for an interview, I will ask for samples of your work in that field. It better not be plagiarised.
If a photo, please make it a standard passport pic and spare me the 4 gold bars, or the pose leaning against the Porsche with the blonde sitting on your face. Has 'ego' written all over it; the Porsche shows an impractical streak and the blonde will only make me insanely jealous.
Brief covering letter outlining why you want the job and availability to commence employment.

[Lodown]

A format for a resume (non-aviation) once that really caught my eye was from an applicant who posted a small logo from each previous company he'd worked for in the left margin beside the relevant work experience. Probably broke copyright laws, but the result looked fantastic. He had the experience to get the interview too.

[Worrals in the wilds]

And if they do, then are you saying it's actually illegal to ask for it?


ANTI-DISCRIMINATION ACT 1991 - SECT 124
124 Unnecessary information

(1) A person must not ask another person, either orally or in writing, to supply information on which unlawful discrimination might be based.

(3) It is a defence to a proceeding for a contravention of subsection (1) if the respondent proves, on the balance of probabilities, that the information was reasonably required for a purpose that did not involve discrimination.

Example--
An employer would contravene the Act by asking applicants for all jobs whether they have any impairments, but may ask applicants for a job involving heavy lifting whether they have any physical condition that indicates they should not do that work.
This is from the Queensland Act, but I imagine they all have a similar escape clause.

Basically, if you can show that you asked for the information for a legitimate purpose, such as security checks (which is probably the Qantaslink excuse) you're in the clear.

I have some recruitment experience in the entertainment industry, where you can ask all sorts of questions that aren't usually allowed (about appearance, build, age etc) because these things are deemed integral to being a model / actor. Basically, you can't sue a strip joint for discrimination for not employing you as a stripper because you're an overweight fifty year old male. :}

My understanding is that you need to be careful that any questions you ask specifically pertain to the job you're advertising. In this way, asking someone if they're prepared to travel is okay if the job requires travelling, but asking them if they're married (and then assuming they're not prepared to travel) can be seen as discriminatory.

This post is a great guide to CVs, not just in aviation, and I've forwarded it to several school leaving friends who are looking for work :ok:

[Lodown]

Basically, you can't sue a strip joint for discrimination for not employing you as a stripper because you're an overweight fifty year old male.

Damn! So much for that avenue for an exciting career change. But if you're hung like a horse?

[remoak]

johnriketes

Let me pose a question to you. Did you reply or acknowledge to all CV submitting hopefuls, whether it be the standard letter of rejection or at the very least an automated response on receipt of CV? An honest reply will tell me a lot about the company you worked for and possibly a bit about yourself.If the person was clearly not qualified, they got the standard "thanks but no thanks" letter - but if they were otherwise excellent candidates and possibilities for the future, they got an email and a letter along the lines of "not right now but keep in touch". If I didn't have too much work on, they got a phone call.

If they were qualified and of interest to us, they got a letter and email explaining our current hiring position and advising them of a likely date for further contact. I then contacted them about once a month via email with updates, until they were either offered an interview or it was decided that their application would go no further, which I normally advised via email with the offer of a chat on the phone if they wanted to know why.

If they were qualified but not of interest to us, I once again emailed them and offered a phone conversation to explain why, and suggested ways to remedy the situation.

If we liked them and wanted to interview them, they got a phone call and a letter with a date for interview, selection day and sim check.

Every letter got a response, which took hours but was considered a good investment in our future recruitment landscape. I took the view that a company which claimed to value it's employees highly (as ours did), should also value prospective employees highly, and be consistent in it's treatment of everyone that had contact with us regarding employment. In other words, there shouldn't be a difference between the way a prospective employee and an actual employee is treated.

This worked well for us, and meant that when the pool of pilots started to dry up from time to time, we normally suffered less than most because our pool of applicants was larger and more loyal, as they appreciated our efforts to keep them in the loop.

Ozzie Mozzie

Would a current first aid certificate be relevant?Maybe for smaller operators, but not for airlines, they'll just put you through it again anyway.

Is there a preferred computer programme format for resumesPDF is by far the safest. As you say, don't even consider .docx. If I can't open it, I won't read it! Although you should always try and send a paper one as backup.

Colour doesn't matter, I'm only interested in the information on the page. It doesn't help your application, but it won't hurt it either. It's just noise (and not very professional).

Tail wheel

I am not interested in what you look like so don't include a photo.That's real old school. You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.

[Lodown]

Another little tip:

If you're emailing the resume, label the attachement so it's easy to file at the other end, eg. "Smith_J 102009". If you're slow mailing it, then make sure it is easy to find in the file cabinet.

[neville_nobody]

You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.

I don't know of any airline that asks for a photo other than a photo copy of your driver's license and passport.

It was suggested in a recruiting book I read years ago that photo's on resumes were a big no no unless it was the industry norm (apparently for actors it's common) The book argued that (especially for girls) it sent out the wrong message and you might get ruled out by how you looked. Also girls might get ruled out too by actually looking too good. If you're some cracking sort 22 year old and the bosses wife is screening the resumes she might just accidentally lose your resume as you are seen as a threat. It was also suggested in the book that people are cynical about people who post up their photos. They were suggesting that the perception of people who put photos on resumes were trying to make up for a lack of ability.

[ZappBrannigan]

That's real old school. You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.Agree with most of the advice offered in this thread - but this has left me a bit cold. To suggest that you can, in any way, assess the suitability of a candidate from a head-and-shoulders photo on a resume seems quite far-fetched. I'd be interested in how this profiling is achieved... if the person looks fit, clean cut, military appearance, they're going to make a great pilot - and if they're overweight, balding, and don't have a striking smile - the CV gets binned?

Excepting, of course, if the person is dishevelled/unshaven/looking like rubbish in general, which would match some CVs I've seen.

[*Lancer*]

In Australia, photos are out unless you're applying for something in entertainment that can actually use appearance as a deciding factor. Passport photos may be required in some cases (although I can't think of any offhand), but not as part of your CV.

You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine, but because you're assessing a photo it can be grossly inaccurate. You are leaving the door wide open to be discriminated against if you include one with your resume.

Having said that, photos can be useful as 'memory joggers' for an employer who wants to put a face to a name... Be very, very careful though!

If you're applying as a pilot, in most cases you want to use a resume instead of a CV. Academic positions and some other industries use CVs (which are longer and include more details - job descriptions etc). Resumes are shorter and are more about the headings rather than the explanations. Keep it to 2 pages max (one sheet).

[twodogsflying]

Good Thread!

A few tips from my experience of employing over 300 pilots.

2 pages Max if you have a large amount of experience. 1 page is better. I do not want to read you personnel goals in aviation.

Must have Licence type, Medical Expiry, Instrument rating type and expiry, Total hours, Multi Command Hours in a place very easy to read. This info is the most important, if you have minimums the rest is read. If I can't find it on first glance it gets filed in file 13 instantly!

2 crew hours Command or F/O if the company operates Transport aircraft. If you have zero hours 2 crew - state it.

Instructor rating or Training and Checking experience if you have any.

Type Endorsements and hours in Command or F/O (include command endorsement if you have one but where only employed as a F/O).

I do not want to read every single you have flown. If you have never flown a twin – state it!

Do your homework, if the company you are applying too operates singles and C206 – state the hours on type if you have any. If they only operate twins, stating every single type you have flown just shows you have not done your homework!

If you have all ATPL subjects - state it. If you have 2 remaining - state it. I do not want to read every subject and result, just if you have all credits or not.

I am not interested in any way shape of form of an "Aviation Degree". All one of those tells me is that you have more money than sense!

I am not interested in references, I never call the ones you include as I can always find people who know you!

If you want to include marital status and age, go ahead, it shows you have nothing to hide. If you don't include it and you make it to interview and the position is out in the boondocks with single accommodation supplied, then it is up to you to accept or decline, you will get no special treatment to see your family and don't expect any!

Never send paper resumes, they get lost. Resumes emailed that have minimums get saved. Everything else goes in file 13. DON'T EXPECT A REPLY!

Don't include you photo; you have no idea if the girls in the office open all mail. If they do you will be scrutinised and remarks passed around!

[Top_Cat]

Okay, so the sum total of the advice in this thread is to always include a photo because you can tell a lot from a bloke in a photo but don't bother including a photo because only quals/certs/experience matter, always include DOB/marital status/birthplace but, for the love of God, DON'T give your DOB/marital status/birthplace because it illegal to ask/opens potential employer up to litigation and you won't get an interview anyway and always include a cover letter as that's what gets read first but make sure your CV is up to snuff because that's what gets read first.

Cool, got it.

:ugh:

EDIT: Not meaning to come off that there's not some great advice in this thread as it applies to specific employers and I know those like remoak and others' hearts are absolutely in the right place, especially as they're offering their opinions for free.

But, really, as with every other industry, luck/personal preference/biases are massive factors. Many seem to think if you find the right CV template online, "Woo hoo JOB!", like it's an engineering process which you can refine. There are several general principles which generally work, sure, but generally, you have to play the %'s to get a job. If you go up to one chick in a pub and say "Nice shoes, wanna ****?", your chances of success are infinitely worse than if you ask the same question of 30 females in a night. And, even better, it only has to work once......

[remoak]

Wow I can't believe how far behind the world Australia is...

To suggest that you can, in any way, assess the suitability of a candidate from a head-and-shoulders photo on a resume seems quite far-fetched. I'd be interested in how this profiling is achieved...

It has nothing to do with profiling at all. It is simply looking for cues... slovenly appearance, the afore-mentioned leaning over expensive sports cars, wearing of insignia that don't fit the candidate, etc. They all give little hints as to what you can expect from that person. However no recruiter would ever decide a candidate's suitability based on a photo; it simply gives some information on which later interview questions can be based.

You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine

Precisely. They are all part of the picture. Nobody hires pilots any more based solely on flying skill. We look for the whole person. Many airlines see their crews as front-line ambassadors for the company, which makes their appearance as critical as the cabin crew. In this context, they are little different to actors or other professionals whose appearance is an important factor.

All you are doing with a photo is having an early opportunity to do exactly what you do anyway in the first few seconds of an interview. To infer that requiring a photo implies discrimination is just ridiculous.

I don't know of any airline that asks for a photo other than a photo copy of your driver's license and passport.

British Airways... Easyjet... Ryanair... flybe... the list goes on. The BA form even helpfully provides a box on the form for your photo. Many airlines, particularly Asian ones (Japan Airlines is a good example) have strict requirements around personal appearance and physical stature (ie fatties need not apply). There are still some airlines in the Middle East that frown upon pilots wearing glasses (in fact Cathay were like that until relatively recently).

I suppose what we are seeing is how out of step Australian HR practices are with the rest of the world. Whether you think that is a good thing is up to you. From a recruiter's perspective, it sounds very restrictive.

[Top_Cat]

Actually remoak, as one who is insisting upon photos, your input here could help with a question I've thought about for a while. I'm physically fit but I'm a big bloke because I lift weights several times a week, play sports, etc. My previous job required something approximating that of a power athlete which means fit enough to run all day but physically strong enough to, say, kick someone's door in during the course of serving a warrant. Since leaving, I've maintained my resistence training mainly because I'm used to it, my girlfriend digs big blokes, etc.

Basically, I present in photos like a bouncer but, for weight and balance purposes, would this present a problem for potential employers?

[remoak]

I suppose it might if you were flying charters in a 152, but no company I worked for ever allowed consideration of physical size as a factor in the employment process (although a few larger airlines do). Our view was that, if the CAA gave you a medical, and you could physically fit in the aircraft, that was all we cared about.

Having said that our smallest aircraft was a 70-seater, so size and weight were not issues.

I'll bet it's illegal in Australia to discriminate on the basis of size or weight though... :}

[Worrals in the wilds]

It is unless it's integral to the job that you be a certain size or weight.

F/As have a minimum height so they can open the lockers etc, you could probably specify a maximum weight for helicopter pilots because that can impact on the payload, but otherwise you'd want a good reason ready. As you say, if someone has a medical and fits in your aircraft you probably wouldn't want to use the 'you too big' line.

It's nothing to do with HR practices and everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway. Virgin got hit with this one by a couple of rejected F/A candidates, where the company was found to have discriminated (on age), but unintentionally.

[BGS]

We received a CV for a 210 bush job, that included (amongst the 10 pages)....Gold medal in barbershop quartet contest :confused:

[Worrals in the wilds]

I guess he could provide the inflight entertainment :}

[remoak]

everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway.

Geez what happened to Australia, are you lot going soft or something...??? :}

[archangel7]

can one of you guys post a format of a cv so we can get an idea... that would be great

[chimbu warrior]

Perhaps employers could be a little more specific when they advertise a position. This would make it easier for potential applicants.

When I see an ad ............"pilot wanted, email xyz@gmail".... it tells me very little about the position, and hence I don't know what to include in my resume and/or covering letter. A few details on type, base and nature of the work would certainly help.

My other pet gripe........."must be rated and current on (insert type)".

Do employers not realise that in insisting on rated and current pilots they are encouraging someone to "do a runner" from the employer that provided that rating? If I was hiring someone I would prefer to

train them in-house, to ensure standardisation
hire for attitude, rather than solely on the basis of endorsements


Some good info in this thread. :ok:

[remoak]

archangel7

Here's a format that has got me several jet jobs...

http://www.simavia.co.nz/cve.pdf

Sorry, the PDF turned out a bit crappy... :}

[amateur]

I just got my first job in GA and the manager let me go through all the resumes on file and gave me tips on what they look for in resumes- shouldnt be sharing this info with you since half of u are my competition but since im nice:)

-Avoid gaps in employment history or briefly explain if you have them.
-Stick to only 1-2 pages
-If you look like a geek do not include your photo:8
- Do not include a pre primary style cover page
- Stick to a simple easy to read format
- Tailor your cv to the position your applying for, if its your first job in a small GA company you dont want to come across over qualified.
- My boss like a very brief section about hobbies. apparently he can tell alot about them just by a few of their hobbies ie you play rugby- he knows your not an overweight lazy sloth.
- Dont put in the line "I've already written off a plane so thats unlikely to happen again" That was in a girls resume in her "about me section" amongst her love for cooking cupcakes:ugh:
- I know someone else said dont come in, its probably true for big companies but if its your first GA job and its a small company it might be the go- thats how i got my gig.

Im not an expert but those are the tips i recieved and i hope this might help someone.

[j3pipercub]

shouldnt be sharing this info with you since half of u are my competition but since im nice

Good Attitude amatuer :ugh: Remember, some people do occasiionally jump rungs in the ladder, do you want them pissing on you from above or helping you up? I take it back if you're joking.

if its your first job in a small GA company you dont want to come across over qualified.

I'd really love to know how you could do that in an aviation sense.

My boss like a very brief section about hobbies. apparently he can tell alot about them just by a few of their hobbies ie you play rugby- he knows your not an overweight lazy sloth.

So I shouldn't put in that I live next to my computer refreshing D,G &P every few seconds while snorting sherbert and biting my toenails?

What do hobbies have to do with work ethic? What does weight have to do with work ethic? It's my time off and I'll do whatever the f*ck I want to in it.

Besdies if my hobby is playing rugby does that mean I also have a side hobby of public urination, defecation and drunkeness?? I think I can tell a lot about your boss from that comment...

Dont put in the line "I've already written off a plane so thats unlikely to happen again" That was in a girls resume in her "about me section" amongst her love for cooking cupcakes

That is pretty funny....mmmmm cupcakes....

I know someone else said dont come in

Whatever you do, even if it's a meeting your 'mate' has set up for you on a day off, DON'T go in in thongs and a t-shirt. That is how I got my first multi gig. The more qualified "I've got 300 hours on a PA-31" bloke rocks up late with messy hair in pluggers boardies and a printed t-shirt. I was dressed in slacks, shirt and tie, total of 25hrs multi. guess who got the job flying bongos...mmmm bongos....I miss bongos


I agree Chimbu, It would be nice. I sent an enquiry off to an ad like that requesting clarification ie what aircraft types etc. All I got back was "Our client does not wish to divulge that information at this stage, but we welcome further information from you..." Sorry, fail...

Thanks for the posting there remoak, simple and to the point.

j3

[Altimeters]

I just got my first job in GA...shouldnt be sharing this info with you since half of u are my competition but since im nice

If you already have the job how can the others be competition? :rolleyes: You will learn very quickly that this is a very small industry indeed.

[twodogsflying]

Another tip:

A very big NO NO!

NEVER EVER go up to a Chief Pilot at the local Aero Club and ask for a job!

They are there to unwind, not interview pilots! If you are introduced by a mutual aquaintence, fine, have a chat, but don't ask for a job!

Also, I have no problem seeing people who turn up at the door. If I have time I will see them, if not, then they are asked to email me their resume with a note saying they dropped in.

[amateur]

Geez j3pipercub dont shoot the messenger :ouch:

In regards to my earlier comment "You guys are my competition so i shouldnt really being sharing this with you , but since im nice" It was just a light hearted comment not to be taken seriously. Chill people:p

Now answering your question about coming across over qualified- when you have multiple different degrees and pocketed 1000 different accomplishments my boss takes it as an indication they are high achievers with higher expectations and assumes they wont be happy living out bush in a shearers shack in 48 degree heat, flying 172s in a repetitive pattern 6 days a week 7hrs a day and spending the rest of their time washing plane bellies. Just an assumption of his.

In terms of the hobbies and interest section he likes, i was also suprised. But being a small GA company out in the sticks he doesnt want a nerdy guy that sits on the computer all day -hes after strong athletic outdoors types to help out around the place with other labouring jobs. Thus the guy whos interests are say footy and fishing would be preferred over a guy whos interests are i dunno IT or something like that.

Im sure when you get to the bigger city companies and airlines the guy with the degree and whos interest are IT would probably be preferred- so its not doom and gloom if your more on the nerdy side of things:8

[j3pipercub]

Amatuer, I did mention that I took it back if it was a joke and I do. However...

48 degree heat flying 172s in a survey pattern 7 days a week 6hrs a day

Is that a Commercial Op? And do 172 P-Charts go that high?

-hes after strong athletic outdoors types to help out around the place with other labouring jobs.

Ah I see, he's after a laborer that he wants to pay pilot's wages for. And is this before, after, or during flying 6hrs a day and degreasing the belly? Give it time, wait till the novelty wears off.

Im sure when you get to the bigger city companies and airlines the guy with the degree and whos interest are IT would probably be preferred- so its not doom and gloom if your more on the nerdy side of things

Glad you're sure mate, as long as you're sure, then that's all that counts. :ugh: Just got your first job and already an expert, awesome. I am a nerd so I'm glad you think it'll be ok when I get to the bigger city companies...

But when you get to 'bigger city companies' I always thought it would be hours and being a decent human that counted. If it came to IT degrees then I'll fail there too. But that's just from my rather limited experience.

j3

[QF411]

j3...what is your problem???? enjoy picking on the newbies do we?? i take it you're so experienced in aviation that you must have forgotten what its like to be starting out....

[Worrals in the wilds]

when you have multiple different degrees and pocketed 1000 different accomplishments my boss takes it as an indication they are high achievers with higher expectations and assumes they wont be happy living out bush in a shearers shack in 48 degree heat...

If we're talking about getting up noses, this is an attitude that gets up mine (I know it's your bosses' attitude amateur, I'm not having a go at you). On paper I'm overqualified for my position, with post grad tertiary and various exciting achievements :} that aren't needed for my aviation job. However, I like my job and I wouldn't want to work anywhere else. Fortunately in the interview my (current) boss had the courtesy to ask me directly whether I would be afraid to get my hands dirty, and of course I said no.

Just because a person has tertiary qualifications doesn't mean they're an office dwelling tosser, nor does it mean they're puny / incapable of physical work. They may be, of course, but IMHO dismissing them out of hand because of their perceived 'uppitiness' is very unfair and probably means you cut out some good candidates.

But if you're hung like a horse?

Hey, send in a resume. Be aware though that it's one of the few industries where a photo is required with the application:}:E

[Mr. Hat]

Surely we must have the weakest unions and unity of any workforce in Australia. Maybe the hospitality guys /gals have a worse one.

[j3pipercub]

QF411,

I don't enjoy picking on the newbies, nor do I think I am experienced. I just find some of the attitudes displayed by some fo the newbies to be irritating and frustrating.

j3

[amateur]

Gee wizz J3 did that pipercub fly up your ass or something? If i have offended you in anyway i do apologise- but im guessing your just naturally a d*ck. And like i said im no expert was just passing on the tips my boss gave me- thought it might be helpful to someone going for a similar type job. As for the 48 degree thing trust me i asked the same thing- Its going to be an interesting summer :\ And yes it is a commercial operation- And yes he does wants labourers but he doesnt pay pilot wages for that -its to earn our keep. And by the way J3 if you read carefully these were purely the attitudes and opinions of the business manager and chief pilot of my company- never did i say i agreed with them.

[remoak]

j3pipercub

Cheers.

One thing though...

What do hobbies have to do with work ethic? What does weight have to do with work ethic? It's my time off and I'll do whatever the f*ck I want to in it.

It's actually not about work ethic. As with photos, you can tell a lot about a person by how they have fun. So, for example, if someone plays in a band on their days off, you can be fairly sure that they have good hand-eye co-ordination and may well do better in the sim than others. if someone restores classic cars, you can be fairly sure that they have an eye for detail and like to do a job properly. If someone admits to riding an R1 or a Gixxer, you can predict that at some point they may well be away from work for an extended period while they recover from their injuries. Same goes for rugby players.

Of course it's probably illegal to ask someone their hobbies in Australia, so... :ugh:

[amateur]

Damn you did a much better job of trying to explain that than i did :ok:

[j3pipercub]

Amatuer,

You didn't offend me before, but calling me a d*ck did offend me, not that you would care much at this point.

You have your first job, congrats, honestly congrats. The things you will learn about yourself, your limits and the industry will amaze you. Good luck, you will need it.

I was never having a go at you in my first post, I was having a go at your boss, if everything that you put in there were your boss' words. I hate the attitude of your boss, it is so prevalent in the newbie CPL scene that it makes me sick.

I was merely pointing out the myriad of things wrong with this view point, not attacking you personally.

However, I must say that not everything you mention is your boss' opinion. The statement in your second post:

Im sure when you get to the bigger city companies and airlines the guy with the degree and whos interest are IT would probably be preferred- so its not doom and gloom if your more on the nerdy side of things

is quite ridiculous considering you have just gotten your first job. Don't go making statements or assumptions where you have no experience. I am also pretty sure this is not your boss' viewpoint.

A word of advice, I would keep the rule breaking to yourself, especially the flying 7 days a week, unless your company has a special dispensation. Already I reckon I could narrow down to a few companies who you work for, just on the info you have provided in your posts. Now if I were a CASA FOI (and yes they do look here, just like they look on youtube occassionally. Don't believe me? Just ask the caravan drivers who were in Maree earlier this year) where do you think I might drop in for an audit if I were passing through. Just be careful and TRUST NO-ONE!!!!!!

remoak,

That of course is true in that respect and context, and I don't have an issue with listing a hobby, but to discriminate against someone because they do or don't play rugby or are carrying extra weight????

Although I am an under-achiever, I think I'm a pretty hard worker when set a task. That being said, I have been put to shame when loading/unloading freight/dirty laundry etc by guys with a much larger BMI than myself. On the flipside, also know some weekend football players who are some of the lazi-est b@stards around when it came to working alongside them.

To factor in people's hobbies, sure. To discriminate, ridiculous.

Might also start using that CV template. Mine is similar, but does need a rework.

j3

[amateur]

Thank you for an actual constructive post j3 :D and yes that last bit was my own assumption but am i too wrong to assume that over two candidates going for an airline position identical hrs both suitable personalities ect that the one who also has a degree in aviation or say business studies would not have an edge over the other?

[remoak]

To factor in people's hobbies, sure. To discriminate, ridiculous.

Agreed. It's just to help build up a picture.

[Rhino 1]

Here's a question I have about job adverts:

- Current MECIR, 2 renewals

Does this mean I can (or need to) fork out the extra money and renew my MECIR 2 extra times in 3 weeks to get by this requirement? Or do I have to wait around 2 years and renew my licence every year?

Main thing is that I have the required flight time, but it is all overseas and I recently just got my Australian ATPL (converted from FAA).

Just curious as to how I should "look good" without my photo. :}

Rhino

[haughtney1]

Really interesting, and slightly disturbing thread.
My view on a CV is that it is merely a snapshot and thus useful to a very limited degree.
Like Remoak, the majority of my experience has been in Europe where 1 page is the norm..anything else is considered fluff.
Tailwheel, I have a question mate,
How can you be open to litigation if you clearly state at the outset of an interview process/advert etc that your organisation doesnt discriminate on the grounds of age race etc etc.
I'd be interested in anyone with some sort of credibility in this regard to clue me up...simply because you can find discrimination anywhere if you want to find it. i.e. she got the job cos shes a girl, or hes taller than me..so you dont like/employ short people.
Just would like to know how you can be proven to discriminate when you publish a disclaimer..and candidates submit CV's of their own free will?

[tiger19]

this is why large companies have standard application forms that are required to be filled out so that everyone being accessed is answering the questions that the company wants to know, ie its harder to pretty things up:ok:

[troppo]

On the topic of Referees.
A referee is there to confirm the decision not make the decision.
Your referees are valuable to you.
Only disclose them at preferred candidate stage.
If your CV stacks up and given it's a small industry a recruiter should be able to work out who you will name as a referee without you actually naming them. e.g. if you worked for xxx air charter, it is likely that mr smith the chief pilot of the time will be a referee.
Referees that are rung up and harrassed frequently by a junior HR person, with nothing better to do, will soon desert you.

[notmyC150v2]

Employers need to be concerned about ASKING for the following information (if it is volunteered there is no need for concern):

1. Previous injuries / workers compensation claims - It is unlawful in Queensland and NSW to ask if a prospective employee has made a workers compensation claim or suffered a workplace injury. I am not sure about other states.

What you are allowed to ask is "Do you have any medical conditions which may be exacerbated by the performance of your duties"? And "Have you suffered any injury which may be aggravated by the physical and mental demands of the position"?

These questions are perfectly legitimate and will give you the information you need. If the applicant lies it is a dismissable offence.

2. Marital Status, Country of Origin, Sexual Orientation, Gender, Gender Identity, Religion (except in very limited circumstances not applicable in aviation), Political Alignment or Party Membership, Union Membership, Age (unless as previously stated it is directly relevant to the position i.e compulsory retirement age etc.), Ethnicity or Family Responsibilies (Children etc).

It is perfectly legitimate and LEGAL to discriminate on weight, height, piercings, hair cut, clothing choice and scruffy lookingness. (Except where one of these is genuinely due to an item listed in 2 above).

Remember only discrimination based upon a characteristic specified in legislation is unlawful. Discrimination based on anything else is fine and dandy.

I am sure that having read the above someone will ask "But how will I know that they have a visa to work here if they are foreign"? Well you ask this question,

"Are you an Australian Citizen"?
"If you are not an Australian Citizen, do you have the legal right to work in Australia? y/n"
"If you answered yes, please provide the relevant Visa or residency documentation"

This gets you the information and keeps you out of the poo with the Department of Immigration and Citizenship.

If you are a job seeker please remember that whilst it is true that a resume is not sworn on the bible, a fib is good grounds for summary dismissal at any time after you have been employed. There is no "statute of limitations" on this.

I wish I had access to this thread years ago. I wasted $200 getting my resume done professionally 12 years ago and didn't get a single interview with it. Every job I have ever got was through a cobbled together two page document which was emailed through and followed up with a few phone calls. Ahhh wisdom truly does come with age...

[Jamair]

I put this format together when I was involved in a large organisations HR operations; I have used this with great success over the years and shared it freely.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p271/jamair_photos/Resume-Format.jpg

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

notmyC150v2 (http://www.pprune.org/members/39645-notmyc150v2), so if I don't get a job based on looking "scruffy" can I just blame is on having a teething infant and sue the bastards for discriminating against me? Was there ever a better excuse than children?

FRQ CB

Providing for one's family is a watertight excuse for making money hand over fist. Greed may be a sin, exploitation of other people might look rather nasty, but who can blame a man 'doing the best' for his children.
-Eva Figes

[Mach E Avelli]

Jamair, that is a good format, but it lacks one key piece of info that a prospective employer would probably want to focus on - a break down of hours on the more significant types e.g. Total turbine xxx hours Turbine command yyy hours B200 zzz hours command

[notmyC150v2]

FRQ CB

You could try, and I have no doubt there would be a large number of lawyers lining up to assist you, but you would fail.

[DeltaT]

WOW what a very insightful thread. Such diversity in opinions that no wonder we all find it so hard to get a job.
After reading this I feel like I should submit 5 different versions of my cv for every job I apply for to cover myself on the tastes of who could be reading it.

[goldypilot]

here is a good idea. attached to the resume send in a photo of your ugly head. What is the deal with that ok guys. I must addmit i have watched my old boss hire a hot chick from looking at her photo on the resume and she got a good gig. but how is this going to work for a dude when the boss is a dude. assumeing the boss doesnt like headjobs from the pilots i dont think it increases your chances so done waste my time.

[remoak]

Well mate, if you work for a company where jobs are handed out because the boss expects some sort of sexual reward, you are pretty much screwed (if you'll pardon the pun). God knows why anyone would want to work for such a boss, but I suppose desperation does that to you.

Those of us that live in the real world select people on a slightly more logical basis... :rolleyes:

BTW if you want to advance in your career, a little bit of attention to spelling and grammar wouldn't go astray... most employers like that sort of stuff...

[goldypilot]

well buddy i am just stating something i saw. not that i am part of it or anything. i am sayin that people shouldnt put there photo on their resume. No need to have a dig brother. i wasnt rude to you so i think you should stop giving advice. if u have nothing good to say....... dnt say anything at all. RANT over

PS: im just a dumb pilot stick and rudder doesnt require an english class just Qantas jet jockies

[johnriketes]

remoak

With ref to replying.

A good answer indeed and my sentiments entirely.

If a company treats pilots with contempt when they are looking for pilots, how are they going to treat them when they don't need them.