Territorial Army tng binned "temporarily" to save £ - Could We Save Money Other Ways?

[Gainesy]

Title says it all really, except WTF?!?

Does this lunacy also apply to RAUXAF and RNR/RMR etc? What price retention?

[airborne_artist]

Reported in The Times here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6868921.ece)

"The Territorial Army has been told to stop training for six months to save millions of pounds from the Army’s budget because of growing financial pressure on the Ministry of Defence. Drill-hall instruction, weekend exercises and all other training associated with the TA will stop, cutting costs by about £20 million"

Bonkers, really, as they can't stop paying the salaries of the permanent (regular and NRPS) staff, the costs of the buildings, the lease/rental on the white vehicle fleet etc.

Still, if you really want to dick around your troops, this is a fantastic start :ugh:

Great timing, too, as with less than six months to go to the end of the fiscal year, you'll pretty much guarantee that no-one will qualify for the training bounty - which is tax-free and worth up to £1,600 for those on the top level. :ugh:

[Yellow Sun]

Here you go:

Time Online. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6868921.ece)

YS

[Tiger_mate]

mmm.... Is it time for UAS, VGS, Red Arrows, BBMF etc to start worrying? Put HMS Victory on eBay and see the French buy her, or is the dockyard financially self sufficient. Surely TA cuts these days are by default 'front line cuts'.

[Wander00]

As a retired RAF officer and former TA officer, I am lost for words to express my disgust and horror at this unbelievably short-sighted and counter productive decision. They will reap the whirlwind. We used to do an exercise on the TA Capt-Maj Course on "how many reservists would report on Day1, Day 2, etc after Queens Order 2 signed". In 6 mths time the TA will have withered on the vine and there will be no one to turn up. Where is our beloved country going. I am aghast - See, I did find some words!

[Fat Chris]

The full article in today's Times quotes the MoD spokesman as saying that the training ban may be continued after the six months already stated, given the budget restrictions.

I simply do not understand the thinking behind this decision.

[Gunnerrock]

The blame for this must surly be upon the heads of the Gov't and not the MOD. We are fighting a war that we are told may last for many years to come. There is no money in the pot, the military must take the pinch on this not the British public. The next six months is all about trying to gain as many votes as possible by cutting things that will not affect Joe public.
6 months training might not seem a lot, but to a young person in the TA it is a lot of valuable experience, something learned in the next 6 months may save someones life in a couple of years time.

I'm disgusted.......:mad:

[Low Flier]

Who needs the TA when you can buy a third of a Typhoon for the same money?

[Grabbers]

Can we expect an increase in the length of grant/standdown periods too? The 'budget holders' encouraged to minimise heating, electricity, fuel bills etc? Bins overflowing, 4 day week not too far away I reckon.

[FrustratedFormerFlie]

If the TA are ceasing local training, keeping only pre-deployment training on major exercise areas, presumably the Whitehall Weasels will be able to put the entire TA property estate in Britain's towns and cities on the market.

Sold (in a depressed market) to the highest of the low bids, the bidder then doing bugger all with it (thus no jobs arising) until the economy improves and he can trouser the profit - perhaps, in some cases, by rebuilding new TA Centres on the sites and leasing them back to whatever governement is then in power.

Trebles all round!:ugh:

[airborne_artist]

Now being reported on BBCi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8300530.stm)

"A Ministry of Defence (MoD) spokesman said: "These are challenging times and like all government departments, we have to live within our means."

Not that it applied to MPs, of course, who spent years living off the taxpayer :ok:

[Wander00]

Any chance of getting "Territorial" spelled correctly! (Nowthat I have corrected my typing errorr!)

Your wish is my command!

(You want to correct "errorr" above now??) ;):E

[airborne_artist]

The good news is that we not that broke, yet. HMG has looked down the back of the sofa and found £12m to give to Fairtrade. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8300402.stm)

""Secondly, we want to broaden the scope of Fairtrade products beyond tea and coffee to other areas and thirdly, we want to make sure that we're also able to persuade other retailers to come on board and to offer Fairtrade products.''"

which has to be more important than defence, surely :=

[minigundiplomat]

I also saw cyclop's grinning grid the other day as he pleged £1B a year to Queen Ranier of Jordan's kids charity.

[Gunnerrock]

Considering UK PLC is unofficially broke and in light of the Gov't decision to stop training the TA for 6 months, other things may be in the pipeline - Red Arrows, BBMF etc.

What could the Gov't cut to save money?

My starter for 10 is - Ministry of Foreign Affairs - UK pledges 450 million USD for Viet Nam in five years (http://www.mofa.gov.vn/en/nr040807104143/nr040807105001/ns060920090220)

This would save us £280 million, try to keep the figure rolling.

[green granite]

What could the Gov't cut to save money?

Their salaries? :E

[Guzlin Adnams]

Cut one third of Brown's civil servants. Hasn't he taken on 6-700,000 additional people over the years, basicaly to ensure that we are monitored to make sure that we're doing what he wants us to do. I always thought that you trim the fat off the meat and not the other way around but hey what do I know, I didn't vote for Cyclops.
Incidentally, just heard on the radio that he's got trouble with his other eye now as well. Not wishing him harm and all that but perhaps this could be the start of his medical discharge. We can only hope. :E
Any hope of you invading the treasury? :ok:

[Wrathmonk]

One of the problems with the TA is when you look at their annual budget (£350-£400m 'ish) against the actual numbers who deploy each year (~2000) in support of ongoing operations it gives the impression of being a very expensive organisation (all things are relative I guess). Having a huge TA was great for acting as the 2nd / 3rd etc line of defence when it was 'all hands to the pumps' to protect Fortress Britain. Some key trades remain essential - medics, siggies, drivers - but to cease training across the board does seem excessive. Medical care to operations would grind to a halt without the TA/NHS to support it.

It will, of course, make CGS look like a Saint at the next planning round having made this sacrifice. The pressure will be on for CNS and CAS to follow. No guesses what they'll be expected to provide ....

[sitigeltfel]

Did the powers at be consider the effect this proposal will have on the morale of the troops who give up their spare time to serve their country? Obviously not. Many of them must be feeling that the commitment they have given is not being reciprocated and will be thinking of driving down to the drill hall and dumping their kit on the doorstep.

[taglo]

Yes the TA is a habit and once broken the habit of attending will be lost.

Today's junior NCOs and Officers are tomorrow's middle and senior managers. If they leave over the next 6-12 months then how will the gapped posts be covered and skills fade in those that remain be addressed?

Perhaps Regional Cadre Centres will emerge where only those that are able to deploy on Ops at some time will be trained?

How could this ever support a meaningfull rank structure and allow supervisory experience to be gained?

Has the time passed where the TA is held as a back pocket insurance policy for a time of massed mobilisation? Will a future TA be manned only by those that have been on (at least one?) operational tour and those about to deploy in the next 12-24 months?

Send polite answers on a postcard to your CO, Trg Major, PSI, PSAO, MOD clerk etc because I wonder what they will all be doing with their time!

[8-15fromOdium]

The Army could save a lot more money if it aligned its Intermediate Staff Course with that of the RN & RAF. 9 months compared to 8 weeks is frankly taking the proverbial, it just looks like an excuse to keep 200 extra SO2s.

[SirToppamHat]

Given the current length of IOT, (and assuming ISS is still ongoing - it's been a while), then I would suggest 8 weeks for ICSC is too long!

In terms of saving money, I would start by looking at some of the ludicrous agreements we have to stand by at the moment - booking hotels through HRG and buying phones and computers from the 'special catalogue' (costs more, lower spec etc). White fleet vehicle provision is also barking - staffed by people intent on providing vehicles that are almost, but not quite, exactly what we didn't ask for.

We used to have a thing called GEMS but I haven't heard of it in a while.

Rant Off

STH

[JTIDS]

Not turning on the heating in a major Oxfordshire air base, including in the mess's until the 19th of October must be saving a small fortune... even if it is leaving everyone bloody freezing.

[Sospan]

Cadets are surley in the frame for the chop. How much do they cost per year compared to the return of service ?

[flash8]

Really does show you what the Government think of the Military.

If we really want to save money we should start by deporting the vast quantities of illegal immigrants currently shacked up in luxury apartments and paid not to work.

But that would be too sensible.

[ACW599]

>Not turning on the heating in a major Oxfordshire air base, including in the mess's until the 19th of October must be saving a small fortune... even if it is leaving everyone bloody freezing.<

Not turning on the heat in Daedalus Mess at Cranwell last week ditto.

[Squirrel 41]

I'm a bit confused - no change there, then - but I'm really not clear what this annoucement / leak actually means.

Taken at face value, those (i) not in training (Phase I? Phase II? Phase III?), (ii) not doing pre-deployment training, (iii) not in specialist units are down to 11 MTDs each.

But it what proportion of the TA is actually is actually outside (i), (ii) or (iii)? :confused:

And it would be invidious for people to be unable to qualify for bounty through no fault of their own, so presumably there will be a magic amendment to QRs to lower the qualification period to 11 days? Or not... :hmm: In which case, standby for the inevitable administrative incoming / lawsuits - which are thoroughly deserved IMHO. I've never understood the training utility of weekly training nights beyond social unit cohesion, which, whilst important is always going to be a complicated thing to explain.

Presumably, though, all the shortfall in training will be made up in longer pre-deployment training on call up - which is presumably on a different budget, so that's all fine, then......... :ugh:

Rant mode: ON

But what this really demonstrates again is that there is no coherent answer to the exam question, "What are the Reserve Forces for?"

This is not limited to the TA - the RAuxAF and the RNR seem to be suffering under the same lack of direction.

Rant mode: OFF

S41

[Nomorefreetime]

I was in Kebabland a few weeks ago..All non essential office Air-Con switched off after 1st Sep. also heard they were on late starts so they didn't have to turn the lights on....what next?

[Motleycallsign]

Surely not turning on the heating is somewhat counter-productive as most livers-in will just turn on electric heaters in their accomodation and the rest of the staff have them on in their workplace?

[ScorpionDriver]

As a Reservist I find some of these comments a bit wide of the mark.

If one looks at the actual 'output' of a 'Regular / Reservist' vs the actual 'cost' of employing that person, the cost to the public purse will vary significantly depending on trade, skills and experience.

In the 'real / commercial world' that I'm usually in (and so is the electorate) we usually try to strive for best efficiency and productivity, ie you get the best of what you put in - really simple stuff.

As a Reservist I get paid X per day, I put in X (plus) effort skill, experience and all the good stuff that we ALL put into get the job done in difficult circumstances.

However, the annual cost to the public purse for me for:

1.Housing = zero
2.Housing my family = zero
3.Commuting = zero
4.Schooling my children = zero

I'm not suggesting for a nano second that the above shouldn't be paid for a Regular, but it does bring down the overall cost, to the public purse, for a Reservist to be productive, on a daily basis quite considerably.

For example - Pay £100 per day for a Reservist to go to the Sandpit for 4 months which is 120 days (£12,000). Fact.

This MUST be less that a Regular, of the same rank to do the same 4 month tour (£35,000pa, plus all of 1-4 above), assuming they are not 'productive' ie not actually 'fighting' for the other 8 months of that year.....(courses, doing 'admin', doing 'sport' and so on..)

I think you'll find that we provide a very efficient service to electorate. Especially when some of us pay 40% tax on our Reservist pay from the outset - cashback for the electorate....

I speak only of my light blue experiences. Per Ardua.....

[Bertie Thruster]

This still appears to be in progress:

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Lincolnshire | Red Arrows moving to new RAF base (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7412074.stm)

About £30m, according to the tea lady.

[airborne_artist]

Just had a chuckle over this on Arrse:

The scene; a recently dusted office in a TA centre in southern England, one Tuesday night early April 2010. The phone rings. A fit Colour Sergeant reaches across, scratches at the gloss white paint on his left hand, then picks up the receiver. "A Coy 3 Loamshires, PSI speaking Sir".
"Ah Colour, it's Col. Newman calling from Bn HQ. Just wondered if I could have a word with the OC?"
"Sorry Sir, he's not in just yet."
"What about the 2 i/c?"
"I think he must have got that job he applied for in Brussels. He seemed quite pleased that he'd be able to give it his full attention now that his evenings were free."
"And OC 1 Pl?"
"Well he left in November, after that little disagreement with the Brigadier at the Remembrance Day parade. Oh, but you weren't with us then, were you? How is the Brigadier, by the way?"
"What? Oh, he's fine. That broken nose didn't take long to heal. The Pl Sgt?"
"Said he might be in later Sir."
"Well, I'm sure you can help. As you know, the Second Battalion is off to AFG, and Brigade wants a Company from me. Who've you got in 1 Pl?"
"Actually I rang round them all last week just to let them know we're starting up again. Let me see. Atkins has joined the Special Constabulary, Baker's changed his mobile number, Collins says he's got a girlfriend now, and Dawson has become a Jehovah's Witness. Evans is in jail, Flint and Gough went off to the RAuxAF, so I think they're starting their tour in June. Hollins was killed back in November with the First Battalion."
"Ah."
"Jones has got a job driving for Tesco's, so he can't do weekends. Kenyon's started to coach a kids' football team on Saturday mornings, so he's jacked too. Lamb handed his kit in last November. Murray's driving to London now, trying to get into the RMR. Norris says he's got a new boyfriend and can't be bothered with the TA any more, Osbourne's got a job in Liverpool and Parry's due out of Headley Court this week. He was Hollins' best mate, of course."
"Erm..."
"Quinn and Rogers got jobs with the New Post Office after the Christmas strike, so they're doing shifts. Smith said he might come in later in the summer, and Thompson says his girlfriend's pregnant so he's not doing any more tours. Umbugu got deported in January; apparently he wasn't from South Africa after all. Vernon sacked it back in October when they shut us down, and White's car's broken down. Xavier's started his college course, Young didn't answer and Zavros' parents have moved back to Greece, so he's gone with them. Do you want me to call 2 Pl Sir, or have you got the number?"

[minigundiplomat]

Had a chuckle too! Nice to see they are set to bring the reservists in line with the regulars.

[romeo bravo]

Sospan - ACO is about £20-25M, depends on how you look at cost. ACF don't know. SCC is funded differently IIRC.

[Regie Mental]

RAuxAF Reg and FP Sqns have recruitment budget withdrawn a few weeks before TA suspend training. Coincidence or smart move by RAuxAF who knew they'd get an influx of enquiries from disgruntled STABs?!

[Squirrel 41]

Reggie: Be careful, you mustn't confuse happy coincidence with planning....

Scorpion Driver: I don't doubt that Reservists can be cheaper for the reasons that you state - but with the caveat that Reservists are ONLY cheaper if they offer the required level of capability at the time that it is required. If they don't make the level of capability then they are a dangerous waste of time - the system is based on them being at a certain level of readiness and they need to be there.

This is a two way deal - the regular force has to decide what it wants the reserve force to do, and then it has to provide the training opportunity to do this to the regular standards, and to be honest with what the reservists are going to do for real. I know too many RAuxAF types who got sent off to TELIC and ended up doing ****ty menial jobs not because they were trained for it, but because they were reservists and they didn't get a vote.

The Reservists - and especially some of the reservist chain of command - needs to get real. The RAuxAF is not "Air Cadets for Adults" - it's there to support the regular front line and those actions that do not need to be justified: pratting about in the respective Messes at the weekend doesn't do anyone any good unless you're professionally good enough to hold the rank. Personally, I think that all the RAuxAF units should have either a regular OC and a reserve XO and regular adj / training officer or if you must, a reserve OC with the XO, adj and training officer from the regulars.

BLUF: Set the expectations, set the standards, provide the training, watch the enthusiasm and outside skills of your reservists make them hugely valuable. Or don't bother - if it's Air Cadets for Adults you want, go and jin the Air Cadets! (With apologies to the Spacies - without you, I'd never have joined).

Rant over!

S41

[rockape2k7]

Great timing, too, as with less than six months to go to the end of the fiscal year, you'll pretty much guarantee that no-one will qualify for the training bounty - which is tax-free and worth up to £1,600 for those on the top level. :ugh:

That's another £2.5M...so are we witnessing the prelude or 'prep moves' of the much vaunted end of the TA? Put yourself in David Richards boots....apply resource to the war... or a hedge against uncertainty (a war) and watch another Army/Land Component capability sink.. or bin the hedge...

[chevvron]

I wonder how many of the much vaunted '500 extra troops'being sent out (how much good will 500 be without the correct kit?) will be TA.

[topgas]

"One of the problems with the TA is when you look at their annual budget (£350-£400m 'ish) against the actual numbers who deploy each year (~2000) in support of ongoing operations it gives the impression of being a very expensive organisation (all things are relative I guess). "
Wrathmonk - I can't find a breakdown of the TA budget, but I'm sure a large proportion of it is to pay the salaries of the Regular staff and NRPS. The paragraph below is from an (unclassified) Army Briefing Note dated 13th October. Stopping all training not in support of operations saves £63-86m, depending on how you do the sum, but only a small proportion of the £400m 'ish quoted.
Great timing, too, as with less than six months to go to the end of the fiscal year, you'll pretty much guarantee that no-one will qualify for the training bounty - which is tax-free and worth up to £1,600 for those on the top level.
AA - I share your cynicism, but in this case it appears misplaced. Bounty requirements are down to Level 3 MATTS, so should be able to knock those off in a morning. A great welcome back for my unit early next year - "Thanks for your tour, now p**s off until we need you in Afghan again"

"Territorial Army (TA): In addition to the £23 million reduction previously made in the in-year budget for TA activity, savings of £20 million have been taken. As a result, activities not directly in support of operations will stop or be severely curtailed. This will mean that TA soldiers who have not been warned to go on operations will suspend all training until Apr 10. However, Phase 1 training will continue and those who have not already qualified for their Annual Bounty will have the opportunity to do so. "

Topgas

[airborne_artist]

Level 3 MATTSIn English, please.

For my last "unit", bounty meant:
Range test
CFT (25 km in the Brecons inc Bergen, gat, belt kit etc)
Swimming test (40 lengths in overalls)
an annual camp, or equivalent
and some other bits and bobs that I've missed off that don't need beadwindowing here.ISTR that apart from the annual camp that we did most of them in Q4 and Q1 of the calendar year, so most lads with no MTDs (like that TLA dropped in there?) from October to March 30th are right royally screwed.

But I was in a special lot, and I don't mean special needs, either :ok:

Edit:

I gather that my old lot, and the Int Corps (AKA green slime) have been exempted the budget freeze. Which is great, but still a scr*wing for the TA paras, infanteers, gunners, signallers etc., all of whom earn much respect for giving up their 9-5 jobs and slotting in to a regular unit to go to the sandy/dusty/rocky places.

[Dengue_Dude]

What could the Gov't cut to save money?

Better still . . . their throats.

Unbelievable logic, if ever an outfit has shown it's worth over the last few years - it's the Auxiliary forces backing up the full-timers. What a kick in the goolies for all those who are SO committed.

This is a crying shame.

[Epiphany]

Money cannot be a problem. We just gave £100,000,000 to Mugabe's Swiss bank account. He must wonder what he has to do to p*ss us off.

[Squirrel 41]

A_A

The Green Slime are certainly in the "special needs" category from my limited experience... perhaps its because of the number of snooker tables that were requisitioned in WW2 to make their mess kit...

Heard on the grapevine that anyone who's specialist (whether special needs or not) would be exempt - which actually means that of the possible stupid decisions, this is one of the more sensible.

Doesn't make it right, however.

S41

[Rigger1]

How much have the new glass cockpit grobs just cost us for the UAS's and ACO? Is this fleet really giving us value for money for what it returns?

[Gunnerrock]

AA

Level 3 MATT is 10 mins training on Wpn system followed by a WHT and BCD (Battlefield Casualty Drills) up to Drill 5 (Bleeding drill), also includes Fitness. Level 3 MATT is for non-deployable personnel based in HQ's. TA should be carrying out Level 2 MATT.
If this is the case at least they will get their Bounty. (But if all training is binned, how will they achive Level 3):ugh:

[ACW599]

>How much have the new glass cockpit grobs just cost us for the UAS's and ACO? Is this fleet really giving us value for money for what it returns?<

The ACO Vigilants were introduced in 1988 and certainly don't have glass cockpits, alas.

[Jeep]

Cheaper UAV? Photo Funday — not a helicopter? — not an autogiro? … a rotary kite? (http://blog.seattlepi.com/travelforaircraft/archives/182283.asp)

[CirrusF]

The recent conflicts have shown that one area that the army is lacking in is reconstruction troops that can go into a town or village and rebuild the infrastructure. Would this not be an ideal role for the TA? Already a significant proportion of TA are brickies, electricians, plumbers - all just the skills needed.

[Easy Street]

Rigger1,

The Grob Tutors definitely do not have glass cockpits! We get a good return from them as all elementary pilot training is carried out on them. They do not just belong to the UASs - all RAF trainee pilots fly them before going on to rotary / multi / fast jet training.

As for the cost, well, they're owned by RBS - so we haven't laid down a pile of cash. Not sure what the annual "rent" works out at, but it's not going to be a huge sum in terms of potential savings...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I think rigger is referring to the new cockpit grob, now complete with MFDs that is in no way, shape, or form destined for the UAS or the ACO in the immediate future, but rather to train our baby pilots in the way of the glass cockpit in the EFT system....

[Wrathmonk]

CirrusF

one area that the army is lacking in is reconstruction troops

That is what DFiD are meant to do - once the situation is stable enough. What is the point of reconstruction if, as soon as your back is turned, it is blown up again (granted, that has not happened to the Dam .... yet!).

[cazatou]

One reason that there is no money is that between July 1999 and March 2002 Mr Brown sold 60% of the UK's Gold Reserves at an average price of $280 per Oz.

The closing price of Gold on Friday was $1053 per Oz.

[Jeep]

Issue these instead of expensive simulators Apache 3 Ch RC Helicopter (http://www.bestremotecontrolhelicopters.info/apache-3-ch-rc-helicopter)

[zedder]

Isn't it time we binned the MOD provided vehicle for everyone except say the Stn Cdr. Each Sqn Boss having a car provided smacks to me of a long gone age where most families did not have 2 cars. That is certainly not the case these days, so why can't the Boss use his own car like the rest of us. As for some of the other sections that seem to have a section run-around, some of them really are taking the piss.

While we don't have that many Stns or Sqns left, I am sure there is scope to save a fair bit of money.

[Easy Street]

In virtually any civilian organisation, an executive of status equivalent to a Wg Cdr / Lt Col / Cdr would be entitled to a company car, and a nice one to boot. It's not just about tax efficiency, it's also about credibility - and if that's not the case, why do even left-wing politicians get driven around in Jaguars? It's laughable that we find it appropriate to lend a Vauxhall Corsa to officers with 15-20 years' service who are reponsible for 200+ individuals. It's even more ridiculous to think that a Stn Cdr, who in some cases can be responsible for over 3,000 personnel, gets an Astra saloon! While most officers of such rank probably do have 2 cars at home, who's to say that they have to be "good" cars? Some choose to spend their money on their families rather than on a slick set of wheels. Could an AOC order one of his Sqn bosses to ditch the child-vomit-stained 1998 Renault MPV and buy a Merc instead if it was thought to be giving a bad impression? I don't think we should cut the MOD-provided cars!

[vecvechookattack]

BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Tories 'may sell off Met Office' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8312999.stm)

That would save some money

[airborne_artist]

In virtually any civilian organisation, an executive of status equivalent to a Wg Cdr / Lt Col / Cdr would be entitled to a company car, and a nice one to boot.

Though in many companies it's now paid as a car allowance, with a requirement for a minimum age/size/standard.

It could make more sense for MoD to contract with a car hire operator to provide a rental fleet on the base, which can be booked and used for official and private use, at contract rate for official bookings. The hire charge then comes from that squadron/unit's transport budget, just like air/rail travel. My guess is that such a budget does not exist at that level, though, but that's how it would be on Civvy Strasse.